In the recent discussion, 'What is a Session?', posted by a recorder player, the subject of non-traditional instruments came up. Firstly, we all know that the word 'traditional' in this context is not to be confused with its dictionary definition.
If we strip Irish traditional music of all the instruments it has acquired in the last 100 years, we are left with fiddle, flute/whistle, uillean pipes, war pipes (bagpipes), harp and voice (There have, of course, been other instruments which have been lost in the mists of time). Needless to say, the war pipes would be most inappropriate in a session. On the odd occasion that a harp appears in a session,it is something of a curiosity. Yet the button accordion and the tenor banjo, both introduced in the first half of the 20th Century, are heard as often as fiddles and flutes.
Guitar accompaniment, which has made its way into the 'tradition' in the last 50 years or so, is now almost universally accepted in sessions, while the bouzouki, which is even more recent, is considered by some to be more 'traditional'. Before the guitar, the piano, now rarely heard in sessions, was the preferred accompanying instrument.
So, what is a traditional instrument? In my opinion, in the most 'traditional' of sessions, the musician are striving to produce a certain type of sound together, which they might term 'traditional'. It is when a certain instrument disrupts this sound that it might not be accepted.
There is no reason why one could not play, for example, recorder, 5-string banjo or piano (as opposed to button) accordion in an Irish session, so long as one respects the 'tradition'. On the other hand, a saxophone, trumpet or electric guitar might not be so welcome.
I must stress that I do no object to traditional music being played on any of the above instruments, not to mention steel pans, pipe organ, celeste, paper and comb.... In fact, the renowned whistle player, Josie MacDermott once won the All Ireland Championship in the 'Miscellaneous' category, playing sax. Indeed, know a fine traditional flute/whistle/sax player, but when he plays his sax in a session, it tends to take over somewhat, and I wish he'd put it away and save it for gigs.
The term "traditional" is, in my view a very misused one. It suggests that all the music we play, and all the tunes we strive to teach, and learn, are all resurected from some ancient vault of precious, sacred material which we must cherish blindly and never change. The same applies to the instruments we use. The fact is that some of the best tunes are newly composed, and NONE of the instruments are truly Irish.
Where the blame for this falsehood lies is anyones guess, but the very fact that "new" instruments are being introduced is a sign that the music is ALIVE and well. The Guitar is a good example David. Once it was frowned upon, then accepted,and then largely replaced by the bouzouki. But it has leveled out and it's place is now part of the accepted lineup in all the "big" bands ( Altan, Solas,Dervish etc.).
The point I'm labouring to make here is that we must try out every instrument, and let time decide which ones survive, and which ones are rejected. There was a time when every session had to have a Digeridoo, but people soon got tired of the constant drone! I think that a harmonica played well is a superb addition to any session, and a piano as well, and I've seen bombardes, warpipes, electric bass, dulcimers, and even the odd harp played at sessions to great avail. But one should keep one's bodhran at home and use it for terrifying the cat. It should be a hanging offence to even think about playing a banjo-mandolin hybrid, and anyone seen within a mile of a session, carrying a bongo type drum should be sentenced to listen to a "Shaggy" album!
Hmmm...I think that there are "informed" uses of what we mean by traditional, and there are woefully uninformed uses. Other threads on this site have gone into that at great length.
So I'm guessing that what we're talking about here are instruments not typically associated with trad Irish music, and my answer would be that which instruments are welcome at a session would depend on that particular session. Some sessions tend to be fairly low-volume affairs, and many instruments would probably be too loud to be welcome. And if the focus of the session is on acheiving a particular "traditional" sound, then clearly some instruments wouldn't fit.
Myself, I prefer the usual suspects: fiddle, whistle, flute, uillean pipes, tenor banjo, concertina, and button accordion. Bouzouki, guitar, and piano are fine too, as long as they don't drive the volume. A bodhran is welcome--some of my favorite nights have been just two or three lead instruments and a tasteful bodhran player (I know, I know...that's an oxymoron).
A notch or two down on the totem pole of "acceptable" instruments, I'd list hammered dulcimer (a lot depends on the sensitivity of the player), piano accordion (they simply tend to be too loud and come in threes), mandolin, and small pipes. I've never played with a harp, so I'll leave that alone.
Anything else strikes me as experimental. I've played in a session with a cello, and it worked great on slow stuff--not so well on up tempo jigs and reels. But I also played once with a terrific clarinetist--he really knew his chops and had a larger repertoire of trad tunes than I did. It took a while to adjust to the timbre of the clarinet, but it blended beautifully with fiddle.
In short, I'd much rather play with a skilled, sensitive clarinetist immersed in the tradition than with a loud but clumsy, ignorant fiddler, piper, or whatever. In most cases, the instrument matters less than the person behind it.
That said, when I sit down at our local session, I'm looking forward to an evening of traditional Irish music, as opposed to Dixie Land, blues, classical, rock, reggae, soul, rap, country, Texas swing, etc. When I play rock, I plug in my son's electric guitar. When I play bluegrass, I pick up my 5-string banjo and finger picks. When I play Irish, I play fiddle, and I'd prefer my session mates to leave their more eclectic instruments at home. There are other "jams" in town where they're welcome.
I have to say, I left this thread alone because I didn't want to sound exclusive or snobby. There's lots of extremely good groups like Lunasa and Verena Commins and Julie Langan, Eileen Ivers, and such, who have added "non-traditional" instruments like standup basses and such, but I do note that everyone in these groups have paid their dues first. I guess I feel that as a beginning fiddler, I don't want to try branching out into the "non-traditional" "Keltic" thing until I'm sure I've gotten the bottom line all figured out first. I do love the non-traditional thing when it's done well, so I totally agree with Will that it's more the musician than the instrument that's important. But I think that part of the reason I have problems with didges and such showing up in organized sessions is that it's something of a measure of how little that musician knows about Irish music. A spur-of-the-moment session might be another thing -- "hey, let's try goofing around a little with that!"
My gut feeling says:
As long as the person playing is playing common session tunes with the right feel, than go for it.
I don't really care about what instrument is played as long as it fit in with the Volume of a session. That would generally put out louder instruments like trumpet & "war" pipes. Also I think the instruments should fall in the same octave as ITM is "traditionally played". Putting out cello's Bass fiddles & (absolutly) tubas.
I've often thought how a well played oboe would fit in, being a double reeded, sonorous & fast instrument I think it could play a couple of tunes very nicely. Although I'd have to admit it probably would never equal my feeling towards the good old standbys being played by the masters of trad music.
I've always understood the definition of "traditional" as being adaptable. Case in point, living in the Wild West, I used to make Native American dance costumes for pow-wow dancers who did not want to make their own. I charged a very pretty penny, especially for non-Indians with money to burn. I had one wealthy woman with money to burn who wanted a fully beaded outfit, but wanted it sewn with traditonal materials, like sinew and brained tanned hides and old trader beads. Her demands got quite ridiculous, and in sheer frustration I asked her if she wanted me to sew it with and old badger pizzel, which is what the Plains Indians used to use for a needle, instead of a modern glover's needle. Of course she said "Yes." For the money she was paying me, I decided she needed a lesson in
what traditional really meant. Native American culture is always adapting, take the re-introduciton of the horse to the Americans by the Spanish in the 1500's. Native American's didn't use horses because they didn't have them. What did we get eight generations later? The best light cavalry in the world, witness the ignomious defeat of General Custer at the battle of Little Big Horn. This is the best example I can think of, and there are many instruments that are totally adaptable for Celtic sessions, so don't rule any of them out, including a digeridoo!
I haven't read anything on this thread that suggests that the Irish music tradition isn't adaptable, but it's also clear that many people play this music with a certain sound in mind, and not all instruments are well suited to enhance that sound. I happen to like the drone of a digeridoo, but I wouldn't want one EVERY time I play.
The main problem with many instruments is that they tend to add too much sound between the notes, filling in those oh-so-important pockets of nothing and washing over all the little grace notes and other embellishments put out by the fiddles, whistles, flutes, etc. Of course, even trad instruments can produce the same effect when played sloppily, or with technique more suited to another genre (bluegrass or Texas swing fiddle come to mind).
Now, I'm not saying I don't like these other forms of music, or the other instruments, or even occasionally experimenting with them in the context of Irish music. I agree that the tradition needs to be open and adaptable to thrive. But some experiments would detract more than they add. Case in point: guitarists who play boom-chuck back up to everything. It works fine for bluegrass--part of the defining sound. But other than as an ephemeral variation to part of a reel, I don't want to hear it at a session. It simply ruins the authenticity. Yes, "traditional" doesn't exclude being adaptable, but neither does it mean throwing ourselves wide open to anything new. If a band decided to play jigs and reels only on digital, amplified, sampled instruments, and always with a regaae beat,I doubt many people would claim that their sound was traditional.
Similarly, I've heard the Boston Pops play Toss the Feathers, and it was hilariously off kilter, the same twilight zone feel as when elevator music smooths all the edge out of the Rolling Stones' "Satisfaction."
Which gets back to my earlier point that in most cases the musician matters more than the instrument they play.
Annie, your story about creating dance costumes IS a great analogy for how we stitch our tunes together--rely only on the ancient elements, and you will undoubtedly neglect many improvements that the ancients themselves would have wholeheartedly welcomed. And I don't disagree that many native americans were masters on the horse. But Custer bit the dust primarily due to his own arrogance and being outnumbered a kabillion to one.
Hm. Well, first, we aren't talking about "Celtic" sessions, we're talking about Irish sessions, or did I misunderstand this? "Celtic" covers any amount of things including what we might now consider Asian cultures if you really want to stretch it (hey, yeah, that's right, that's my excuse!), all the way to German and beyond. The Celts were a very far reaching group of people. Irish. Think Irish. There's a lot of differences between just Scottish and Irish, even with the amount of back-and-forthing the two music forms have done, once you start throwing in Cape Breton and Shetland Islands and Galicia and all the others you're talking about a much less specific thing.
Second, I think what needs to be remembered is "Moderation in everything", which isn't very moderate, is it? Heh. Anyway, the thing is that if you add an oboe and a sax and a didge AND a djembe AND a piano accordian to a session, exactly how is that traditional? Wouldn't it mainly just be noisy? Because you'd never be able to hear the wood flute and the fiddle then. (Hey, at last, a perfect opportunity for the banjo players! hehehe) Just because someone is playing traditional music doesn't mean that they're playing traditional music. Is it okay if we just add one of those, or even two of those? If they're good Irish trad musicians who know a lot about the music, is it okay then? Where exactly is that point where it tumbles over into "not traditional" anymore? I don't think anyone has an objection to an occasional foray into experimentation, but, as the experiments with didges showed, it wore after a while. Almost all of us have experienced The Idiot with The Djembe at the local session, meaning the guy who showed up with a djembe who knew nothing about Irish music but wanted to play anyway, during every tune, all the time, and with the wrong rhthym every time. So a lot of us tend to be a little -- gunshy, let's call it.
Heh. The trouble with keeping your mind completely open is that everything falls out, as a friend used to say. On the other hand, the trouble with keeping your feet on the ground is that you can't take your pants off. ;)
It's questionable whether The digeridoo is actually an instrument. To me it sounds like a walrus with it's ass on fire. I would go packing if someone had the audacity to break one of those things out. There are instruments that are acceptable in some genres of music like the washtub bass, washboard or a plain old jug. But anyway you cut it, they belong in their own genres & not in an Irish session unless you REALLY know the folks at the session well.
I think the problem with non-trad instruments is that you're usually justified in assuming that their are being played by a non-trad player. Will, I think your clarinet player with a large repertoire of trad tunes is an exception, really. Especially if he didn't tongue the first eigth note of every three-note group in the jigs. I used to play the trombone, years ago. maybe I should break it out again and give Drowsy Maggy a try. (Can you imagine the rolls?) On the other hand, Gaelic Storm get a terrific drive out of the Djembe and Dougie McLean uses the Didgeroo to great (and "traditional") effect. There is a difference, of course, when you can't mix the non-trad instruments but get their full impact in the session. Oboes, for instance, are horribly loud.
I must admit, though, that I have my prejudices. This morning on a celtic radio show they played a track with French horn and Star Trek TOS aah-aah singing and it just didn't do it for me. Even when they fast low D whistle and pipes overlay came in. Call me square....
Actually, there's usually an Idiot with a Djembe who shows up at Djembe drum circles, too. Adds that boots-in-a-drier feel to a group of otherwise knowledgeable and polite Afro-Cuban musicians.
As for digeridu, it might go nicely on "The Wild Colonial Boy". And c'mon, you all know you want to hear "Paddy Whack" on the tuba! (Hmm, come to think of it, why bother writing a tune called "Nobody's Favorite" - we can just change the title of "Paddy Whack"...)
while reading through the replys there to what is and isnt a traditional instrument i was quite annoyed to see that unfortunatly the piano accordion was enlisted among the like of didgeridoos and a pile of other instruments that i havent even heard tale of.
one key factor wich prople seem to forget is that it isnt the instrument, it is the musician that is playing it, because believe me, a fiddle ,flute ,button accordion or any other "traditional" instrument can be tottaly horible and the worse damn thing invented in the wrong hands. what about all those great piano-accordion players out there such as alan kelly, karen tweed and michael tyneson-the very man that composed micheal tynesons' which was submitted by zlee. if piano accordion players are so bad, then how could one produce such a great and "traditional" sounding tune ?
another thing wich i found very interesting while reading these replys , was peoples definition of what traditional music is if you read them all, you will see that no two people have the same view on traditional music and instuments and it means a different thing to everyone as far as i can see.
i am from Donegal , ireland a place renowned for its great fiddle music and the brilliant band altan but before altan came along donegal fiddle music was " the worst and most untraditional music "you could get , my how the tables have turned.when i meet up with mairead or dermot down at the cul a diun in teelin for a session they tell me that traditional music is really a modern music and if you think about it, they are right. look at intrumentshow many banjos , mandolins and bououkies did you have in colemans time? and the picoloos wich were one very popular are all but non-existent now?
also going farther down the line, the button accordion was the worlds worst intrument and the most untraditional. infact when i met joe burk and brought up the subject he told me a story of when a great button accordionist died, they went round the men in the pub for a collection and when they came to a good fiddler he asked the collector"how much are they all giving?" and the collector sayed" a shilling" well, the fiddler put his hand in his pocket and took out two shillings and sayed " do us a favour and burry two!" that was the attitude of the musicians about one hundred years ago.and now , they are the most traditional sounding instrument.what does that say about our tradition i ask you?
our own donegal tradition has even had alot of influence from scottich and canadian music.
the reality is that if the music does not change, it will simply die out. the tradition has always been open to new influences. it is the music of the people not the dead. think. if coleman was the same as every other fiddler would he have been so great?they are great bacause they done their own thing they didnt buy a book and become a master.they learned from the old masters and interpreted it in their own way. that is what made them special and unique.
i got this from nearly everybodys favourite band altan. isnt it interesting what they have to say?
No Irish traditional band in the last dozen years has had a wider impact on audiences and music lovers throughout the world than Altan. With their exquisitely produced award-winning recordings, ranging dynamically from the most sensitive and touching old Irish songs all the way to hard hitting reels and jigs, and with their heartwarming, dynamic live performances, Altan have moved audiences from Donegal to Tokyo to Seattle. Throughout, there has been the unwavering commitment of the band to bringing the beauty of traditional music, particularly that of the Donegal fiddlers and singers, to contemporary audiences in a way that brings out all its qualities and destroys none. In fact, Altan have always believed that Irish traditional music is a modern music in every sense and its growing influence and popularity have proved them right.
and while everybody seems to be talking about the didgeridoo,didnt you think the didgeridoo on altans runaway sunday was nice for that song?all a matter of opinion i guess. but thats mine and sorry for writting so much.
Actually, Anceoltoir, I listed the piano accordian on a list of LOUD instruments, mainly to be funny. I'm a stepdancer, and if we didn't have the piano accordian for the competitions, it would make life much more difficult for dancers. However, you don't often see many piano accordians at a session, mainly because you'd never be able to hear anyone else at all. Karen Tweed herself talks about the need for accordian players to be sensitive to the other instruments, you know.
And, actually, Michael Tennyson's (and because Verena Commins did not say in her liner notes whether Mr. Tennyson had indeed composed the tune she learned from him, I didn't know whether he composed the thing or not, so if you know for certain that he did compose it and isn't passing one on from someone else, thanks for that) *isn't* particularly a traditional sounding tune (it sounds quite modern), but it is a lovely, lovely tune that deserves integration, along with other such modern sounding tunes as Fly Fishing Reel and John Burke's, INTO the tradition. What we're discussing here, in all reality, is traditional musical instruments in the context of a session (not performance, which is a whole 'nother beast), and how fast changes happen to the tradition. Though everything in the world is happening faster and faster, I'm delighted to say that traditional music of all sorts generally isn't one of them, and the tradition deserves all the hollering and shouting and picking of nits that goes on in places like this, because it means that we care about it enough to argue about it.
You'll note, by the way, that Altan and any number of other bands and artists who have used the didge on one track or another usually draw the line at one or two. As someone mentioned elsewhere, if you bring a didge to a session and play it through the whole thing, it's fun for a bit and then you all end up with headaches and tired of the experiment.
But what the heck. I expect a time to come when standup basses are freely expected at sessions, simply because so many people are using them now in performance, like Lunasa, for instance, one of my own favorite bands (I couldn't speak for everyone else). However, I personally wouldn't try it just yet -- it's not fully integrated and my skin isn't quite *that* thick.
im sorry zlee if you had taken any offence at what i had said, i am not out to start a row with anyone but remember i did say that it was my opinion. i know u probably didnt mean any offence but to the musicians of the instruments mentioned but would u like somebody saying that banjo's were loud and untraditional if u played traditional music on it? the bit in brackets after it was quite funny though.!
"Anyway, the thing is that if you add an oboe and a sax and a didge AND a djembe AND a piano accordian to a session, exactly how is that traditional? Wouldn't it mainly just be noisy? Because you'd never be able to hear the wood flute and the fiddle then."
was that really funny?
i m sorry ,but i didnt really understand the bit about the fact that we are discussing instruments and not preformance, playing an instrument in a session or anywhere else is preformance isnt it? and wasnt the "LOUD" you refered to not taking in preformance? -confusing stuff. i also think that i had covered the part about how quicky the tradition changes with the part about musicians atitudes and picoloos?
i fear that you didnt quite get what i said about the didge, i said it was nice in that song and what ever about the other comments i didnt think anyone would react quite that strongly to a simple opinion .
and talking about opinions , it is my unfortunalty personal opinion that music is there for all to be enjoy'd and apriciated, the traditional music of ireland is there for everybody and every instrument .i care about music as much as the next person if not more but i sincerely dont think its right to critisize any instrument .if that musician enjoys playing it then that is all that should matter ?i dont whant to argue with you because music is not for argueing as i said. if u do post another reply to contradict this i wont reply because i simply think thatt it is silly to bicker because it tottaly defies the whole point of our music.remember its for fun.
yours sincerely,
An Ceotoir (no offence ment.)
Sorry, Anceoltoir, if you thought I took offense, I assure you I did not! And I'm very sorry to hear that you think I reacted strongly -- part of what makes this a great list is that we talk back and forth like this and hopefully learn things about what other musicians think. Certainly we've contradicted each other over and over (just look at how Will and I go back and forth every now and again), but if you'd prefer to stop talking because of a difference in opinion, I suppose it's your lookout. I'd certainly be happy to keep talking (and often do, I'm afraid!) and listening.
Banjo players tend to have thick skins, out of self-defense, mainly. Fellow musicians tend to joke about them because the instrument tends to be loud. Same thing for lots of the other instruments -- we slag each other back and forth constantly. I've certainly been the butt of many jokes as a fiddler (and thanks to Will, Jeff and everybody else, as me, too!). It's sort of an inside joke, I guess, so I apologize as you took offense at it, but I'm afraid it's almost automatic at this point, sort of like Pavlov's dog. (Do we even have any banjo players in the user list? Where are they all, I wonder? Perhaps I'll have to get my friend Pat online to uphold the banjo standard!)
We're not criticizing the instruments themselves. We're talking about whether they're traditional to Irish traditional music. (Or whether they should be.) I'm afraid that, in my little world, it doesn't matter if someone enjoys playing it, I still don't want to hear tuba in a session! (That was a joke. *grin*) There's plenty of other worlds for tuba players to play Irish traditional music in and feel welcome!
And, no, a session is not a performance. (Will, look, I'm not quoting Barry Foy! The temptation is huge, though.) A session is for the musicians, and for the musicians only. If people happen to enjoy the music made there, great! But sessions happen all the time when there's no audience, and are often better enjoyed for it by the participants. And so, what good is a session in which one instrument drowns out all the others? You might be interested in reading Karen Tweed's talk on the matter on the BBC2 link found in the link section.
Music to me should be argued about, nit-picked, and fussed over--by the participants, anyway, if not audience members. It should be something that people who partake in it should care passionately about. Not to the extent that perhaps some people take it (why insult other people? if they don't agree with you, you're probably not going to change their minds by using extra verbiage), but it's worth caring about, this hobby of mine and most others here. I hope you'll keep adding your two cents in with mine and every one else's! (All you lurkers out there should speak up, too.)
I wonder if we're seeing one of those cultural chasms here.
In the Untied (sic) States, you never know who might wander into a session. And chances are, they have little or no understanding of IRTRAD music, "normal" instrumentation, and session etiquette. I've never been to a session in Ireland, but I'm guessing that a higher percentage of people there--at least those who bump into sessions-- DO have some understanding of these things.
What I'm getting at is that if I'm a regular session participant in Helena, Montana, and I see a piano accordion player walk in the door, I'm guessing we're in for a night of Lawrence Welk polkas. But if my home session is in Doolin, and a piano accordion walks in the door, I have fewer reasons to suspect anything so sinister--the Doolin accordionist can be expected to harbor a more sensitive attitude and some respect for the music.
In short, we're more paranoid here in the States, but only because we've seen more than a few sessions ruined by overbearing, uninformed gas bags.
And I'm only picking on piano accordion because the thread was already there. Jimmy Keane is one of my favorite IRTRAD musicians, bar none. But he's also one of the quieter keyboardists (even when he plugs in).
I'm going to have to ask Tony Nother or Pat King about whether they ever play in sessions next time I see them. I love dancing to Tony's music especially, because he's such a friendly and supportive musician. I once placed first in a single jig competition (my first, actually) simply because he made me laugh before my step -- I was first up and was very nervous as I'd only learned single jigs three weeks before the feis. I asked him to go easy on me, since it was my first single jig and I was starting in Novice. He played Pop Goes the Weasel. I laughed and flew through the steps. I got first and moved up in Prizewinner with the single jig.
ok people, u have never heard much from me before because frankly i dont take the time to write. but after reading your fascinating discussion i have to agree and disagree on many things.
firstly, to have a traditional session i do not think piano accordeons ruin it. it has been said by someone (i am too lazy to see who wrote it) that piano accordeons are too loud.
not necessarily people
that aint true!!
yes i admit, there is a great percentage of piano accordeon players that totally blast it out. but u dont seem to consider the accordeon players who play sweetly and have great respect for the instrument.
dont tell me that u havent been to a session that hasnt had a desperate fiddle, banjo or some other instrument playing in it. i myself am an accomplished fiddle and banjo player and i can degrade both instuments.
i have gone to many sessions with terrible, oh god terrible button accordion players, and god knows what other instruments and ive also gone to some with piano accordeon players who bring life to the music, enhance the overall sound of the session and produce great life and feeling in the session.
however, im not saying that sessions will be crap without piano accordeons.yes there are fantastic sessions without them.
and on to the bodhran players.
yes, there are a terrible amount of bad bodhran players but there are even more bad fiddle players and button accordionists.
i have many friends who play the bodhran and produce a fantastic rythmn. do u like junior davey??? do u consider his playing to be good or not?
but frankly, we arent ones to judge who is good and who is not. people play music for their love of it, and it isnt for others to degrade them.
so basically this conversation has been contradicting itself so really it may not mean much. my point is that certain instruments considered to be 'LOUD" do not necessarily have to live up to its stereotypical name by people like yourselves.
that aint a criticism by the way.
i am not starting an argument.
anyhow this concludes what i wanted to say so if u have any more views i would be pleased to hear them.
oh yeh, does anyone know any really wacky funky tunes which id love to learn???
thanks.
Hello there - Im new to this thing and new to the internet and its great to find a site where you can talk expressively about your passion but too much expression anceoltoir will lead to rows...I've just come from reading the 'Tune fanatic' discussion. That was pretty wild. No I think a good musician in a session is someone who will contribute to the good of the group, not for the good of themselves. Someone who plays excellently on their own can be a real downer on a session because he/she takes over the show. A session is one musical output as a group. Remember everyone has to respect each other, and not all people with the same instrument are necessarily as good/bad as each other. AnCeoltoir and someone else mentioned the thing about piano accordion players - they arent all the same, yes some are worse than others and equally some are outstanding - but it all depends on the attitude and focus of the player within the group. A group session is not an excuse to blast off above and ahead of others, it will just get you the reputation of a small minded and selfish player and people will be influenced by this to criticise your style. Respect is an essential ingredient which young people seem to have forgotten about.
Onto non-traditional instruments. Essentially, if an instrument is not native to this country for the past couple of centuries and hasn't grown up with the music whenever irish music was an integral factor to all Irish peoples' lives and was played everywhere by almost everyone, ie the caveman stages of Irish music then no, the music from it isn't traditional. Think about the meaning of the word. The music is simply being stylised. People are getting money for this sort of thing now and before you know it we'll be playing digeridoos and doublebases in sessions. That won't be an Irish musical session. Instrument and music are part and parcel. We have to keep the music pure by not calling Irish styled music on digeridoos as 'Irish traditional music'. Its not really Irish and where's the tradition???
Zlee and Niamh I like your attitudes - Anceoltoir please calm down!!!
I will be back..
I'm a whistler by trade by the way, and a philosopher by the looks of things!!!
How about the 5-string banjo? I learned a handful of trad tunes with the hope of going to a session at a local pub. It didn't occur to me that it would be too inapproprite given there is another type of banjo. That must mean that the tone is OK, right? I would hate to see those low D string three finger triples go to waste. (I suppose there's always room to fit them in Foggy Mtn Breakdown).
I've heard players like Tom Hanway and Tony Furtado play trad irish tunes very convincingly on the banjo and it doesn't sound out of place. What are peoples thoughts on the instrument?
I like the banjo, myself. Took me a while. At first, I couldn't get over the plinketyplunkety sound of it and it just didn't seem very Irish to me. Now I've heard more excellent players (like Tony Furtado) it doesn't sound as weird to me. I've never been able to figure out exactly why the four string is welcome but the five string is not amongst the purest of the purists. Anyone got an explanation?
I've been able to work the 5 string in a few tunes we do such as:
The Haggis, Red Haired Boy, Wind that Shakes the Barley, and a few others.
However I don't do the blugrass Scruggs roll, I'm a frailer. I will admit it does lean a bit toward traditional Old Time rather than Irish, but, I've gotten no complaints.
I know a guy in NYC named Tom Hanway who does Irish Trad on 5-string & pretty well too. He's a hell of a nice guy. I know he put out a Mel Bay Book covering 5-string banjo techniques. As far as the 5-string/tenor banjo issue... 5-strings do have a slightly different sound, they resonate the other strings a little bit more. Also they are usually played with finger-picks as opposed to a flat pick which makes them a little bit slower for melody, but they are still lightning fast. The triplet is easier with a flat pick, but I've seen them a number of ways; sometimes using the thumb pick like a flat pick (easiest & quickest way I think) others do a thumb middle thumb or thumb index thumb. The third (rarest & hardest) is the ring-middle-index approach which is used in flamenco guitar & takes a lot of doing. I think the main reason for prejudice against 5-strings is it's association w/ bluegrass, I think that when most seasoned Irish session folks see a five string they think they're in for a night of "Orange Blossom Special" & "Shady Grove". However founded/unfounded this seems to be I can't say that it doesn't go through peoples minds.
Hmm -Id say people accept four string banjos purely because they are used to them - Ive never seen a 5 string in a session & frankly I'm not sure how I'd react. Do they sound different?? I really love the sound of a well played banjo.
I think a 5 string sounds pretty nice on some reels if it's frailed or done claw hammer.(Old timey style) It gives kind of a bouncy sound. I would agree that the 4 string would be more accepted. Most people associate 5 string with bluegrass and the Scruggs roll.
The trouble is, if a 5 string sounds blue grassy in an Irish tunes session, I dont think I would be to keen. On the other hand - if it was played like a 4 string is, in an Irish style then I wouldnt have a problem with it
As for didges - they sound good on recordings etc - but I dont think they really fit in with irish tunes in a session - I have played with many & know many great players. The things that some of the native players can do on them is mind blowing, but you wouldnt see an button accordian player trying to join a symphony - would you?
That's why I think a 5 string sounds better frailed. I never did like the bluegrass thing. I'm in the market for a 4 string. One of my band mates uses a Goldtone we share and it's fretted Quite nicely. No long finger stretches.
No problem. It's kind of hard to explain. You don't wear finger picks. Its kind of a down thrust, using the backs of your finger nails if that makes since, down on one string, and then then a hammer on with the left on the fret board. Mercy, that description sounds weird. Never tried to explain it before. Another term they call is is Claw Hammer, hold your right hand kind of like a claw. It's pre-bluegrass style I guess you could say. The way you'd of heard it in the 19th century.
Bob Carlin is a great Claw Hammer Banjo player. Grand Pa Jones of Hee Haw fame was a good one. I probably made that as clear as a glass of Beamish.
On Dervish's CD Midsummer's Night, the tune "Red Haired Mary" I believe there is a frailed banjo used on it. I could be wrong, but I think I'm hearing one. If not, it would be a good tune for one.
As a cellist who has recently taken up the fiddle I like, and agree with, Brad Maloney's comment of 6 Oct 2001 (sorry Brad - I've only just picked it up!) that non-trad instruments should play in the same octave as the ITM instruments. The cello in its lower range is slower to "speak" than the fiddle an octave above because of the inertia of its thicker strings, and would thus tend to drag the tune a little unless the cellist is an experienced player and is very much on the ball. Also, the timbre of the ensemble would change. You would have the tune being duplicated an octave down in an area where, if anything is to be played, it should only be a drone from the uillean pipes or a (discrete) harmonic accompaniment on a guitar.
Personally, as an orchestral cellist I would prefer not to accompany in an ITM session - I get quite enough of that in my orchestral playing. One of the great attractions of ITM is that you always get to play the tune (with due apologies to the bodhran, chord guitar, and one or two others). Ok, so a competent cellist could show off and play at the same pitch as the fiddle, but I don't see the point. It's rather like the dog who was taught to walk on his hind legs - the marvel is that the animal did it at all, not whether he did it well.
However, one area of ITM where the cello would be very effective is in playing slow airs, because of its sonority and darker tone colour. Brendan McGlinchey agreed with me on this when I discussed it with him in Listowel last year. The viola is in this category as well (note Tommy Peoples' slow airs on the viola).
One further point - the cello is physically the most fragile of all the stringed instruments, due to its approximately human-size dimensions, and is very easily knocked and damaged in a busy crowded pub session, quite apart from the cellist needing twice as much space as any other player for bowing room. Note well that the cost of repairing a damaged cello, and the time taken to do it, is at least twice that of a fiddle of corresponding quality. All this is why I refuse invitations to "bring my cello along" to sessions. Sorry, guys!
Non-Traditional Instruments
Non-Traditional Instruments
In the recent discussion, 'What is a Session?', posted by a recorder player, the subject of non-traditional instruments came up. Firstly, we all know that the word 'traditional' in this context is not to be confused with its dictionary definition.
If we strip Irish traditional music of all the instruments it has acquired in the last 100 years, we are left with fiddle, flute/whistle, uillean pipes, war pipes (bagpipes), harp and voice (There have, of course, been other instruments which have been lost in the mists of time). Needless to say, the war pipes would be most inappropriate in a session. On the odd occasion that a harp appears in a session,it is something of a curiosity. Yet the button accordion and the tenor banjo, both introduced in the first half of the 20th Century, are heard as often as fiddles and flutes.
Guitar accompaniment, which has made its way into the 'tradition' in the last 50 years or so, is now almost universally accepted in sessions, while the bouzouki, which is even more recent, is considered by some to be more 'traditional'. Before the guitar, the piano, now rarely heard in sessions, was the preferred accompanying instrument.
So, what is a traditional instrument? In my opinion, in the most 'traditional' of sessions, the musician are striving to produce a certain type of sound together, which they might term 'traditional'. It is when a certain instrument disrupts this sound that it might not be accepted.
There is no reason why one could not play, for example, recorder, 5-string banjo or piano (as opposed to button) accordion in an Irish session, so long as one respects the 'tradition'. On the other hand, a saxophone, trumpet or electric guitar might not be so welcome.
I must stress that I do no object to traditional music being played on any of the above instruments, not to mention steel pans, pipe organ, celeste, paper and comb.... In fact, the renowned whistle player, Josie MacDermott once won the All Ireland Championship in the 'Miscellaneous' category, playing sax. Indeed, know a fine traditional flute/whistle/sax player, but when he plays his sax in a session, it tends to take over somewhat, and I wish he'd put it away and save it for gigs.
Anyway, I've said enough. What do you think?
# Posted on October 5th 2001 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
The term "traditional" is, in my view a very misused one. It suggests that all the music we play, and all the tunes we strive to teach, and learn, are all resurected from some ancient vault of precious, sacred material which we must cherish blindly and never change. The same applies to the instruments we use. The fact is that some of the best tunes are newly composed, and NONE of the instruments are truly Irish.
Where the blame for this falsehood lies is anyones guess, but the very fact that "new" instruments are being introduced is a sign that the music is ALIVE and well. The Guitar is a good example David. Once it was frowned upon, then accepted,and then largely replaced by the bouzouki. But it has leveled out and it's place is now part of the accepted lineup in all the "big" bands ( Altan, Solas,Dervish etc.).
The point I'm labouring to make here is that we must try out every instrument, and let time decide which ones survive, and which ones are rejected. There was a time when every session had to have a Digeridoo, but people soon got tired of the constant drone! I think that a harmonica played well is a superb addition to any session, and a piano as well, and I've seen bombardes, warpipes, electric bass, dulcimers, and even the odd harp played at sessions to great avail. But one should keep one's bodhran at home and use it for terrifying the cat. It should be a hanging offence to even think about playing a banjo-mandolin hybrid, and anyone seen within a mile of a session, carrying a bongo type drum should be sentenced to listen to a "Shaggy" album!
# Posted on October 5th 2001 by Backer
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
Hmmm...I think that there are "informed" uses of what we mean by traditional, and there are woefully uninformed uses. Other threads on this site have gone into that at great length.
So I'm guessing that what we're talking about here are instruments not typically associated with trad Irish music, and my answer would be that which instruments are welcome at a session would depend on that particular session. Some sessions tend to be fairly low-volume affairs, and many instruments would probably be too loud to be welcome. And if the focus of the session is on acheiving a particular "traditional" sound, then clearly some instruments wouldn't fit.
Myself, I prefer the usual suspects: fiddle, whistle, flute, uillean pipes, tenor banjo, concertina, and button accordion. Bouzouki, guitar, and piano are fine too, as long as they don't drive the volume. A bodhran is welcome--some of my favorite nights have been just two or three lead instruments and a tasteful bodhran player (I know, I know...that's an oxymoron).
A notch or two down on the totem pole of "acceptable" instruments, I'd list hammered dulcimer (a lot depends on the sensitivity of the player), piano accordion (they simply tend to be too loud and come in threes), mandolin, and small pipes. I've never played with a harp, so I'll leave that alone.
Anything else strikes me as experimental. I've played in a session with a cello, and it worked great on slow stuff--not so well on up tempo jigs and reels. But I also played once with a terrific clarinetist--he really knew his chops and had a larger repertoire of trad tunes than I did. It took a while to adjust to the timbre of the clarinet, but it blended beautifully with fiddle.
In short, I'd much rather play with a skilled, sensitive clarinetist immersed in the tradition than with a loud but clumsy, ignorant fiddler, piper, or whatever. In most cases, the instrument matters less than the person behind it.
That said, when I sit down at our local session, I'm looking forward to an evening of traditional Irish music, as opposed to Dixie Land, blues, classical, rock, reggae, soul, rap, country, Texas swing, etc. When I play rock, I plug in my son's electric guitar. When I play bluegrass, I pick up my 5-string banjo and finger picks. When I play Irish, I play fiddle, and I'd prefer my session mates to leave their more eclectic instruments at home. There are other "jams" in town where they're welcome.
# Posted on October 6th 2001 by Will Harmon
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
I have to say, I left this thread alone because I didn't want to sound exclusive or snobby. There's lots of extremely good groups like Lunasa and Verena Commins and Julie Langan, Eileen Ivers, and such, who have added "non-traditional" instruments like standup basses and such, but I do note that everyone in these groups have paid their dues first. I guess I feel that as a beginning fiddler, I don't want to try branching out into the "non-traditional" "Keltic" thing until I'm sure I've gotten the bottom line all figured out first. I do love the non-traditional thing when it's done well, so I totally agree with Will that it's more the musician than the instrument that's important. But I think that part of the reason I have problems with didges and such showing up in organized sessions is that it's something of a measure of how little that musician knows about Irish music. A spur-of-the-moment session might be another thing -- "hey, let's try goofing around a little with that!"
Zina
# Posted on October 6th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
Well said David!! Kudos to you!
My gut feeling says:
As long as the person playing is playing common session tunes with the right feel, than go for it.
I don't really care about what instrument is played as long as it fit in with the Volume of a session. That would generally put out louder instruments like trumpet & "war" pipes. Also I think the instruments should fall in the same octave as ITM is "traditionally played". Putting out cello's Bass fiddles & (absolutly) tubas.
I've often thought how a well played oboe would fit in, being a double reeded, sonorous & fast instrument I think it could play a couple of tunes very nicely. Although I'd have to admit it probably would never equal my feeling towards the good old standbys being played by the masters of trad music.
Toodles!
# Posted on October 6th 2001 by B Rad
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
I've always understood the definition of "traditional" as being adaptable. Case in point, living in the Wild West, I used to make Native American dance costumes for pow-wow dancers who did not want to make their own. I charged a very pretty penny, especially for non-Indians with money to burn. I had one wealthy woman with money to burn who wanted a fully beaded outfit, but wanted it sewn with traditonal materials, like sinew and brained tanned hides and old trader beads. Her demands got quite ridiculous, and in sheer frustration I asked her if she wanted me to sew it with and old badger pizzel, which is what the Plains Indians used to use for a needle, instead of a modern glover's needle. Of course she said "Yes." For the money she was paying me, I decided she needed a lesson in
what traditional really meant. Native American culture is always adapting, take the re-introduciton of the horse to the Americans by the Spanish in the 1500's. Native American's didn't use horses because they didn't have them. What did we get eight generations later? The best light cavalry in the world, witness the ignomious defeat of General Custer at the battle of Little Big Horn. This is the best example I can think of, and there are many instruments that are totally adaptable for Celtic sessions, so don't rule any of them out, including a digeridoo!
# Posted on October 7th 2001 by Annie Mandarin
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
I haven't read anything on this thread that suggests that the Irish music tradition isn't adaptable, but it's also clear that many people play this music with a certain sound in mind, and not all instruments are well suited to enhance that sound. I happen to like the drone of a digeridoo, but I wouldn't want one EVERY time I play.
The main problem with many instruments is that they tend to add too much sound between the notes, filling in those oh-so-important pockets of nothing and washing over all the little grace notes and other embellishments put out by the fiddles, whistles, flutes, etc. Of course, even trad instruments can produce the same effect when played sloppily, or with technique more suited to another genre (bluegrass or Texas swing fiddle come to mind).
Now, I'm not saying I don't like these other forms of music, or the other instruments, or even occasionally experimenting with them in the context of Irish music. I agree that the tradition needs to be open and adaptable to thrive. But some experiments would detract more than they add. Case in point: guitarists who play boom-chuck back up to everything. It works fine for bluegrass--part of the defining sound. But other than as an ephemeral variation to part of a reel, I don't want to hear it at a session. It simply ruins the authenticity. Yes, "traditional" doesn't exclude being adaptable, but neither does it mean throwing ourselves wide open to anything new. If a band decided to play jigs and reels only on digital, amplified, sampled instruments, and always with a regaae beat,I doubt many people would claim that their sound was traditional.
Similarly, I've heard the Boston Pops play Toss the Feathers, and it was hilariously off kilter, the same twilight zone feel as when elevator music smooths all the edge out of the Rolling Stones' "Satisfaction."
Which gets back to my earlier point that in most cases the musician matters more than the instrument they play.
Annie, your story about creating dance costumes IS a great analogy for how we stitch our tunes together--rely only on the ancient elements, and you will undoubtedly neglect many improvements that the ancients themselves would have wholeheartedly welcomed. And I don't disagree that many native americans were masters on the horse. But Custer bit the dust primarily due to his own arrogance and being outnumbered a kabillion to one.
# Posted on October 7th 2001 by Will Harmon
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
Hm. Well, first, we aren't talking about "Celtic" sessions, we're talking about Irish sessions, or did I misunderstand this? "Celtic" covers any amount of things including what we might now consider Asian cultures if you really want to stretch it (hey, yeah, that's right, that's my excuse!), all the way to German and beyond. The Celts were a very far reaching group of people. Irish. Think Irish. There's a lot of differences between just Scottish and Irish, even with the amount of back-and-forthing the two music forms have done, once you start throwing in Cape Breton and Shetland Islands and Galicia and all the others you're talking about a much less specific thing.
Second, I think what needs to be remembered is "Moderation in everything", which isn't very moderate, is it? Heh. Anyway, the thing is that if you add an oboe and a sax and a didge AND a djembe AND a piano accordian to a session, exactly how is that traditional? Wouldn't it mainly just be noisy? Because you'd never be able to hear the wood flute and the fiddle then. (Hey, at last, a perfect opportunity for the banjo players! hehehe) Just because someone is playing traditional music doesn't mean that they're playing traditional music. Is it okay if we just add one of those, or even two of those? If they're good Irish trad musicians who know a lot about the music, is it okay then? Where exactly is that point where it tumbles over into "not traditional" anymore? I don't think anyone has an objection to an occasional foray into experimentation, but, as the experiments with didges showed, it wore after a while. Almost all of us have experienced The Idiot with The Djembe at the local session, meaning the guy who showed up with a djembe who knew nothing about Irish music but wanted to play anyway, during every tune, all the time, and with the wrong rhthym every time. So a lot of us tend to be a little -- gunshy, let's call it.
Heh. The trouble with keeping your mind completely open is that everything falls out, as a friend used to say. On the other hand, the trouble with keeping your feet on the ground is that you can't take your pants off. ;)
Zina
# Posted on October 7th 2001 by Zina Lee
Hehehehe
I hate it when that happens -- Will, we're obviously both on line at the same times! hehehe
zls
# Posted on October 7th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
It's questionable whether The digeridoo is actually an instrument. To me it sounds like a walrus with it's ass on fire. I would go packing if someone had the audacity to break one of those things out. There are instruments that are acceptable in some genres of music like the washtub bass, washboard or a plain old jug. But anyway you cut it, they belong in their own genres & not in an Irish session unless you REALLY know the folks at the session well.
# Posted on October 7th 2001 by B Rad
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
The Boston Pops playing "Toss the Feathers". I *might* snort out my drink for that one.
zls
# Posted on October 8th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
If you do, Zina, let me know.
I think the problem with non-trad instruments is that you're usually justified in assuming that their are being played by a non-trad player. Will, I think your clarinet player with a large repertoire of trad tunes is an exception, really. Especially if he didn't tongue the first eigth note of every three-note group in the jigs. I used to play the trombone, years ago. maybe I should break it out again and give Drowsy Maggy a try. (Can you imagine the rolls?) On the other hand, Gaelic Storm get a terrific drive out of the Djembe and Dougie McLean uses the Didgeroo to great (and "traditional") effect. There is a difference, of course, when you can't mix the non-trad instruments but get their full impact in the session. Oboes, for instance, are horribly loud.
I must admit, though, that I have my prejudices. This morning on a celtic radio show they played a track with French horn and Star Trek TOS aah-aah singing and it just didn't do it for me. Even when they fast low D whistle and pipes overlay came in. Call me square....
# Posted on October 9th 2001 by Bloomfield
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
Actually, there's usually an Idiot with a Djembe who shows up at Djembe drum circles, too. Adds that boots-in-a-drier feel to a group of otherwise knowledgeable and polite Afro-Cuban musicians.
As for digeridu, it might go nicely on "The Wild Colonial Boy". And c'mon, you all know you want to hear "Paddy Whack" on the tuba! (Hmm, come to think of it, why bother writing a tune called "Nobody's Favorite" - we can just change the title of "Paddy Whack"...)
# Posted on October 9th 2001 by JeffK627
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
Somebody post Paddy Whack, will ya? Just for Jeff and Brad? And me, because I can't think of what tune it might be.
zls
# Posted on October 9th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
I'm sorry the didge has no place in the music, period. It goes up there with whale noises, babbling brooks & other "Windham Hill-ery".
# Posted on October 10th 2001 by B Rad
Re: Didgeridont's
Please buy my newly crafted didgeridont's at reasonable extortionate prices...Suits every session.
They are very,very quiet.
Dave
# Posted on October 10th 2001 by biggus dave
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
"Didgeridonts." *snicker*
# Posted on October 10th 2001 by Zina Lee
Traditional instruments and culture.
while reading through the replys there to what is and isnt a traditional instrument i was quite annoyed to see that unfortunatly the piano accordion was enlisted among the like of didgeridoos and a pile of other instruments that i havent even heard tale of.
one key factor wich prople seem to forget is that it isnt the instrument, it is the musician that is playing it, because believe me, a fiddle ,flute ,button accordion or any other "traditional" instrument can be tottaly horible and the worse damn thing invented in the wrong hands. what about all those great piano-accordion players out there such as alan kelly, karen tweed and michael tyneson-the very man that composed micheal tynesons' which was submitted by zlee. if piano accordion players are so bad, then how could one produce such a great and "traditional" sounding tune ?
another thing wich i found very interesting while reading these replys , was peoples definition of what traditional music is if you read them all, you will see that no two people have the same view on traditional music and instuments and it means a different thing to everyone as far as i can see.
i am from Donegal , ireland a place renowned for its great fiddle music and the brilliant band altan but before altan came along donegal fiddle music was " the worst and most untraditional music "you could get , my how the tables have turned.when i meet up with mairead or dermot down at the cul a diun in teelin for a session they tell me that traditional music is really a modern music and if you think about it, they are right. look at intrumentshow many banjos , mandolins and bououkies did you have in colemans time? and the picoloos wich were one very popular are all but non-existent now?
also going farther down the line, the button accordion was the worlds worst intrument and the most untraditional. infact when i met joe burk and brought up the subject he told me a story of when a great button accordionist died, they went round the men in the pub for a collection and when they came to a good fiddler he asked the collector"how much are they all giving?" and the collector sayed" a shilling" well, the fiddler put his hand in his pocket and took out two shillings and sayed " do us a favour and burry two!" that was the attitude of the musicians about one hundred years ago.and now , they are the most traditional sounding instrument.what does that say about our tradition i ask you?
our own donegal tradition has even had alot of influence from scottich and canadian music.
the reality is that if the music does not change, it will simply die out. the tradition has always been open to new influences. it is the music of the people not the dead. think. if coleman was the same as every other fiddler would he have been so great?they are great bacause they done their own thing they didnt buy a book and become a master.they learned from the old masters and interpreted it in their own way. that is what made them special and unique.
i got this from nearly everybodys favourite band altan. isnt it interesting what they have to say?
No Irish traditional band in the last dozen years has had a wider impact on audiences and music lovers throughout the world than Altan. With their exquisitely produced award-winning recordings, ranging dynamically from the most sensitive and touching old Irish songs all the way to hard hitting reels and jigs, and with their heartwarming, dynamic live performances, Altan have moved audiences from Donegal to Tokyo to Seattle. Throughout, there has been the unwavering commitment of the band to bringing the beauty of traditional music, particularly that of the Donegal fiddlers and singers, to contemporary audiences in a way that brings out all its qualities and destroys none. In fact, Altan have always believed that Irish traditional music is a modern music in every sense and its growing influence and popularity have proved them right.
and while everybody seems to be talking about the didgeridoo,didnt you think the didgeridoo on altans runaway sunday was nice for that song?all a matter of opinion i guess. but thats mine and sorry for writting so much.
# Posted on October 11th 2001 by martin t
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
Well spoken, Anceoltoir. Would love to hear more from you.
# Posted on October 11th 2001 by scottythefiddler
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
So there. *grin*
Actually, Anceoltoir, I listed the piano accordian on a list of LOUD instruments, mainly to be funny. I'm a stepdancer, and if we didn't have the piano accordian for the competitions, it would make life much more difficult for dancers. However, you don't often see many piano accordians at a session, mainly because you'd never be able to hear anyone else at all. Karen Tweed herself talks about the need for accordian players to be sensitive to the other instruments, you know.
And, actually, Michael Tennyson's (and because Verena Commins did not say in her liner notes whether Mr. Tennyson had indeed composed the tune she learned from him, I didn't know whether he composed the thing or not, so if you know for certain that he did compose it and isn't passing one on from someone else, thanks for that) *isn't* particularly a traditional sounding tune (it sounds quite modern), but it is a lovely, lovely tune that deserves integration, along with other such modern sounding tunes as Fly Fishing Reel and John Burke's, INTO the tradition. What we're discussing here, in all reality, is traditional musical instruments in the context of a session (not performance, which is a whole 'nother beast), and how fast changes happen to the tradition. Though everything in the world is happening faster and faster, I'm delighted to say that traditional music of all sorts generally isn't one of them, and the tradition deserves all the hollering and shouting and picking of nits that goes on in places like this, because it means that we care about it enough to argue about it.
You'll note, by the way, that Altan and any number of other bands and artists who have used the didge on one track or another usually draw the line at one or two. As someone mentioned elsewhere, if you bring a didge to a session and play it through the whole thing, it's fun for a bit and then you all end up with headaches and tired of the experiment.
But what the heck. I expect a time to come when standup basses are freely expected at sessions, simply because so many people are using them now in performance, like Lunasa, for instance, one of my own favorite bands (I couldn't speak for everyone else). However, I personally wouldn't try it just yet -- it's not fully integrated and my skin isn't quite *that* thick.
Zina
# Posted on October 11th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
im sorry zlee if you had taken any offence at what i had said, i am not out to start a row with anyone but remember i did say that it was my opinion. i know u probably didnt mean any offence but to the musicians of the instruments mentioned but would u like somebody saying that banjo's were loud and untraditional if u played traditional music on it? the bit in brackets after it was quite funny though.!
"Anyway, the thing is that if you add an oboe and a sax and a didge AND a djembe AND a piano accordian to a session, exactly how is that traditional? Wouldn't it mainly just be noisy? Because you'd never be able to hear the wood flute and the fiddle then."
was that really funny?
i m sorry ,but i didnt really understand the bit about the fact that we are discussing instruments and not preformance, playing an instrument in a session or anywhere else is preformance isnt it? and wasnt the "LOUD" you refered to not taking in preformance? -confusing stuff. i also think that i had covered the part about how quicky the tradition changes with the part about musicians atitudes and picoloos?
i fear that you didnt quite get what i said about the didge, i said it was nice in that song and what ever about the other comments i didnt think anyone would react quite that strongly to a simple opinion .
and talking about opinions , it is my unfortunalty personal opinion that music is there for all to be enjoy'd and apriciated, the traditional music of ireland is there for everybody and every instrument .i care about music as much as the next person if not more but i sincerely dont think its right to critisize any instrument .if that musician enjoys playing it then that is all that should matter ?i dont whant to argue with you because music is not for argueing as i said. if u do post another reply to contradict this i wont reply because i simply think thatt it is silly to bicker because it tottaly defies the whole point of our music.remember its for fun.
yours sincerely,
An Ceotoir (no offence ment.)
# Posted on October 12th 2001 by martin t
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
Sorry, Anceoltoir, if you thought I took offense, I assure you I did not! And I'm very sorry to hear that you think I reacted strongly -- part of what makes this a great list is that we talk back and forth like this and hopefully learn things about what other musicians think. Certainly we've contradicted each other over and over (just look at how Will and I go back and forth every now and again), but if you'd prefer to stop talking because of a difference in opinion, I suppose it's your lookout. I'd certainly be happy to keep talking (and often do, I'm afraid!) and listening.
Banjo players tend to have thick skins, out of self-defense, mainly. Fellow musicians tend to joke about them because the instrument tends to be loud. Same thing for lots of the other instruments -- we slag each other back and forth constantly. I've certainly been the butt of many jokes as a fiddler (and thanks to Will, Jeff and everybody else, as me, too!). It's sort of an inside joke, I guess, so I apologize as you took offense at it, but I'm afraid it's almost automatic at this point, sort of like Pavlov's dog. (Do we even have any banjo players in the user list? Where are they all, I wonder? Perhaps I'll have to get my friend Pat online to uphold the banjo standard!)
We're not criticizing the instruments themselves. We're talking about whether they're traditional to Irish traditional music. (Or whether they should be.) I'm afraid that, in my little world, it doesn't matter if someone enjoys playing it, I still don't want to hear tuba in a session! (That was a joke. *grin*) There's plenty of other worlds for tuba players to play Irish traditional music in and feel welcome!
And, no, a session is not a performance. (Will, look, I'm not quoting Barry Foy! The temptation is huge, though.) A session is for the musicians, and for the musicians only. If people happen to enjoy the music made there, great! But sessions happen all the time when there's no audience, and are often better enjoyed for it by the participants. And so, what good is a session in which one instrument drowns out all the others? You might be interested in reading Karen Tweed's talk on the matter on the BBC2 link found in the link section.
Music to me should be argued about, nit-picked, and fussed over--by the participants, anyway, if not audience members. It should be something that people who partake in it should care passionately about. Not to the extent that perhaps some people take it (why insult other people? if they don't agree with you, you're probably not going to change their minds by using extra verbiage), but it's worth caring about, this hobby of mine and most others here. I hope you'll keep adding your two cents in with mine and every one else's! (All you lurkers out there should speak up, too.)
Zina
# Posted on October 12th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
I wonder if we're seeing one of those cultural chasms here.
In the Untied (sic) States, you never know who might wander into a session. And chances are, they have little or no understanding of IRTRAD music, "normal" instrumentation, and session etiquette. I've never been to a session in Ireland, but I'm guessing that a higher percentage of people there--at least those who bump into sessions-- DO have some understanding of these things.
What I'm getting at is that if I'm a regular session participant in Helena, Montana, and I see a piano accordion player walk in the door, I'm guessing we're in for a night of Lawrence Welk polkas. But if my home session is in Doolin, and a piano accordion walks in the door, I have fewer reasons to suspect anything so sinister--the Doolin accordionist can be expected to harbor a more sensitive attitude and some respect for the music.
In short, we're more paranoid here in the States, but only because we've seen more than a few sessions ruined by overbearing, uninformed gas bags.
And I'm only picking on piano accordion because the thread was already there. Jimmy Keane is one of my favorite IRTRAD musicians, bar none. But he's also one of the quieter keyboardists (even when he plugs in).
Will
# Posted on October 12th 2001 by Will Harmon
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
I'm going to have to ask Tony Nother or Pat King about whether they ever play in sessions next time I see them. I love dancing to Tony's music especially, because he's such a friendly and supportive musician. I once placed first in a single jig competition (my first, actually) simply because he made me laugh before my step -- I was first up and was very nervous as I'd only learned single jigs three weeks before the feis. I asked him to go easy on me, since it was my first single jig and I was starting in Novice. He played Pop Goes the Weasel. I laughed and flew through the steps. I got first and moved up in Prizewinner with the single jig.
zls
# Posted on October 13th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
ok people, u have never heard much from me before because frankly i dont take the time to write. but after reading your fascinating discussion i have to agree and disagree on many things.
firstly, to have a traditional session i do not think piano accordeons ruin it. it has been said by someone (i am too lazy to see who wrote it) that piano accordeons are too loud.
not necessarily people
that aint true!!
yes i admit, there is a great percentage of piano accordeon players that totally blast it out. but u dont seem to consider the accordeon players who play sweetly and have great respect for the instrument.
dont tell me that u havent been to a session that hasnt had a desperate fiddle, banjo or some other instrument playing in it. i myself am an accomplished fiddle and banjo player and i can degrade both instuments.
i have gone to many sessions with terrible, oh god terrible button accordion players, and god knows what other instruments and ive also gone to some with piano accordeon players who bring life to the music, enhance the overall sound of the session and produce great life and feeling in the session.
however, im not saying that sessions will be crap without piano accordeons.yes there are fantastic sessions without them.
and on to the bodhran players.
yes, there are a terrible amount of bad bodhran players but there are even more bad fiddle players and button accordionists.
i have many friends who play the bodhran and produce a fantastic rythmn. do u like junior davey??? do u consider his playing to be good or not?
but frankly, we arent ones to judge who is good and who is not. people play music for their love of it, and it isnt for others to degrade them.
so basically this conversation has been contradicting itself so really it may not mean much. my point is that certain instruments considered to be 'LOUD" do not necessarily have to live up to its stereotypical name by people like yourselves.
that aint a criticism by the way.
i am not starting an argument.
anyhow this concludes what i wanted to say so if u have any more views i would be pleased to hear them.
oh yeh, does anyone know any really wacky funky tunes which id love to learn???
thanks.
Niamh.
# Posted on October 26th 2001 by Niamh
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
Hello there - Im new to this thing and new to the internet and its great to find a site where you can talk expressively about your passion but too much expression anceoltoir will lead to rows...I've just come from reading the 'Tune fanatic' discussion. That was pretty wild. No I think a good musician in a session is someone who will contribute to the good of the group, not for the good of themselves. Someone who plays excellently on their own can be a real downer on a session because he/she takes over the show. A session is one musical output as a group. Remember everyone has to respect each other, and not all people with the same instrument are necessarily as good/bad as each other. AnCeoltoir and someone else mentioned the thing about piano accordion players - they arent all the same, yes some are worse than others and equally some are outstanding - but it all depends on the attitude and focus of the player within the group. A group session is not an excuse to blast off above and ahead of others, it will just get you the reputation of a small minded and selfish player and people will be influenced by this to criticise your style. Respect is an essential ingredient which young people seem to have forgotten about.
Onto non-traditional instruments. Essentially, if an instrument is not native to this country for the past couple of centuries and hasn't grown up with the music whenever irish music was an integral factor to all Irish peoples' lives and was played everywhere by almost everyone, ie the caveman stages of Irish music then no, the music from it isn't traditional. Think about the meaning of the word. The music is simply being stylised. People are getting money for this sort of thing now and before you know it we'll be playing digeridoos and doublebases in sessions. That won't be an Irish musical session. Instrument and music are part and parcel. We have to keep the music pure by not calling Irish styled music on digeridoos as 'Irish traditional music'. Its not really Irish and where's the tradition???
Zlee and Niamh I like your attitudes - Anceoltoir please calm down!!!
I will be back..
I'm a whistler by trade by the way, and a philosopher by the looks of things!!!
# Posted on April 20th 2002 by Whistles
New tune names
Whack Paddy With The Tuba
The Old Badger's Pizzel
Take 2 and Bury 2
# Posted on April 21st 2002 by glauber
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
How about the 5-string banjo? I learned a handful of trad tunes with the hope of going to a session at a local pub. It didn't occur to me that it would be too inapproprite given there is another type of banjo. That must mean that the tone is OK, right? I would hate to see those low D string three finger triples go to waste. (I suppose there's always room to fit them in Foggy Mtn Breakdown).
I've heard players like Tom Hanway and Tony Furtado play trad irish tunes very convincingly on the banjo and it doesn't sound out of place. What are peoples thoughts on the instrument?
# Posted on June 5th 2002 by 5StringMike
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
I like the banjo, myself. Took me a while. At first, I couldn't get over the plinketyplunkety sound of it and it just didn't seem very Irish to me. Now I've heard more excellent players (like Tony Furtado) it doesn't sound as weird to me. I've never been able to figure out exactly why the four string is welcome but the five string is not amongst the purest of the purists. Anyone got an explanation?
Zina
# Posted on June 5th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
I've been able to work the 5 string in a few tunes we do such as:
The Haggis, Red Haired Boy, Wind that Shakes the Barley, and a few others.
However I don't do the blugrass Scruggs roll, I'm a frailer. I will admit it does lean a bit toward traditional Old Time rather than Irish, but, I've gotten no complaints.
Wayne
# Posted on June 5th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
I know a guy in NYC named Tom Hanway who does Irish Trad on 5-string & pretty well too. He's a hell of a nice guy. I know he put out a Mel Bay Book covering 5-string banjo techniques. As far as the 5-string/tenor banjo issue... 5-strings do have a slightly different sound, they resonate the other strings a little bit more. Also they are usually played with finger-picks as opposed to a flat pick which makes them a little bit slower for melody, but they are still lightning fast. The triplet is easier with a flat pick, but I've seen them a number of ways; sometimes using the thumb pick like a flat pick (easiest & quickest way I think) others do a thumb middle thumb or thumb index thumb. The third (rarest & hardest) is the ring-middle-index approach which is used in flamenco guitar & takes a lot of doing. I think the main reason for prejudice against 5-strings is it's association w/ bluegrass, I think that when most seasoned Irish session folks see a five string they think they're in for a night of "Orange Blossom Special" & "Shady Grove". However founded/unfounded this seems to be I can't say that it doesn't go through peoples minds.
# Posted on June 5th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
Hmm -Id say people accept four string banjos purely because they are used to them - Ive never seen a 5 string in a session & frankly I'm not sure how I'd react. Do they sound different?? I really love the sound of a well played banjo.
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by bb
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
Didgeridu or however
I have cd of seamus begley accompanied by an aussie irsh gu called stephen cooney who plays the above on two tracks and its very effective
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by donnchad
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
I think a 5 string sounds pretty nice on some reels if it's frailed or done claw hammer.(Old timey style) It gives kind of a bouncy sound. I would agree that the 4 string would be more accepted. Most people associate 5 string with bluegrass and the Scruggs roll.
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
The trouble is, if a 5 string sounds blue grassy in an Irish tunes session, I dont think I would be to keen. On the other hand - if it was played like a 4 string is, in an Irish style then I wouldnt have a problem with it
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by bb
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
As for didges - they sound good on recordings etc - but I dont think they really fit in with irish tunes in a session - I have played with many & know many great players. The things that some of the native players can do on them is mind blowing, but you wouldnt see an button accordian player trying to join a symphony - would you?
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by bb
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
That's why I think a 5 string sounds better frailed. I never did like the bluegrass thing. I'm in the market for a 4 string. One of my band mates uses a Goldtone we share and it's fretted Quite nicely. No long finger stretches.
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
sorry - I dont know what frailed means - didnt mean to make you repeat yourself
)
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by bb
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
No problem. It's kind of hard to explain. You don't wear finger picks. Its kind of a down thrust, using the backs of your finger nails if that makes since, down on one string, and then then a hammer on with the left on the fret board. Mercy, that description sounds weird. Never tried to explain it before. Another term they call is is Claw Hammer, hold your right hand kind of like a claw. It's pre-bluegrass style I guess you could say. The way you'd of heard it in the 19th century.
Bob Carlin is a great Claw Hammer Banjo player. Grand Pa Jones of Hee Haw fame was a good one. I probably made that as clear as a glass of Beamish.
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
On Dervish's CD Midsummer's Night, the tune "Red Haired Mary" I believe there is a frailed banjo used on it. I could be wrong, but I think I'm hearing one. If not, it would be a good tune for one.
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
As a cellist who has recently taken up the fiddle I like, and agree with, Brad Maloney's comment of 6 Oct 2001 (sorry Brad - I've only just picked it up!) that non-trad instruments should play in the same octave as the ITM instruments. The cello in its lower range is slower to "speak" than the fiddle an octave above because of the inertia of its thicker strings, and would thus tend to drag the tune a little unless the cellist is an experienced player and is very much on the ball. Also, the timbre of the ensemble would change. You would have the tune being duplicated an octave down in an area where, if anything is to be played, it should only be a drone from the uillean pipes or a (discrete) harmonic accompaniment on a guitar.
Personally, as an orchestral cellist I would prefer not to accompany in an ITM session - I get quite enough of that in my orchestral playing. One of the great attractions of ITM is that you always get to play the tune (with due apologies to the bodhran, chord guitar, and one or two others). Ok, so a competent cellist could show off and play at the same pitch as the fiddle, but I don't see the point. It's rather like the dog who was taught to walk on his hind legs - the marvel is that the animal did it at all, not whether he did it well.
However, one area of ITM where the cello would be very effective is in playing slow airs, because of its sonority and darker tone colour. Brendan McGlinchey agreed with me on this when I discussed it with him in Listowel last year. The viola is in this category as well (note Tommy Peoples' slow airs on the viola).
One further point - the cello is physically the most fragile of all the stringed instruments, due to its approximately human-size dimensions, and is very easily knocked and damaged in a busy crowded pub session, quite apart from the cellist needing twice as much space as any other player for bowing room. Note well that the cost of repairing a damaged cello, and the time taken to do it, is at least twice that of a fiddle of corresponding quality. All this is why I refuse invitations to "bring my cello along" to sessions. Sorry, guys!
# Posted on October 4th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Non-Traditional Instruments
About the octave thing, i've heard people play the tunes an octave lower on the viola, and it sounds nice.
# Posted on October 5th 2002 by glauber