All right, I've read through all 86 comments on the thread on electronic tuners, and for all the anti-tuner conviction, I have yet seen the following addressed:
HOW does one learn to tune properly by ear, without electronic aids? I know it can be done, and I know that's how it was done lo these many years ago, in the days before electronic tuners; but I see very little discussion about how people develop such accurate relative pitch, let alone how I can train myself to do it.
I have a decent ear, but hell if I can reliably tell the difference between the just-intonation perfect fifth, and the equal temperament perfect fifth. Given that we're talking about differences of a tenth of one percent here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament#Comparison_to_just_intonation), I'm not wholly convinced that everyone who claims that they can discern the difference really can. Moreover, that difference can't account for all of the horribly out of tune players at sessions. I mean, I know that an electonic tuner will compress the intervals, so I can (and do) tune my E string so that the tuner shows it to be slightly sharp, and the G so that it registers as a smidge flat. Problem solved, no?
I'm jealous of every fiddler who can pluck a pair of adjacent strings, squint at them, twist a fine tuner clockwise an eighth of a rotation, pluck the strings again, and go off satisfied that his or her instrument is now in tune. But I can't. (For what it's worth, I find that I often can't tell if a string's slightly off (or I can tell that *something's* wrong, but I can't tell exactly what); but if it's is way off, I can tune it *exactly* to pitch.) How can I learn? For those of you who think that using tuners on fiddles is a substitute for skill, or that it's something that people do when they're too lazy to learn their instruments properly...could you tell me how a new fiddler can *develop* the ability to tune without external aids while also working on skills that are a lot easier to hone on a properly tuned instrument?
You need a quiet room and most preferably an experienced player (not necessarily a teacher) to help you.
When two strings are almost a perfect 5th apart you should be able to hear a difference beat as you play them together. As you bring the strings into that perfect 5th that "beat" gets slower and slower and disappears. It's related to the differences between the frequencies of the open strings and their harmonics. When you get the strings into that perfect 5th you should be able to detect a distinctive difference note which is an octave below the lower string. This is difficult to describe in words, which is where you need the other person to show you what to listen for - which is why you need a quiet room.
If you watch a concert violinist tuning up when he's on stage he'll first take an A from the orchestral oboe, then he'll tune the D to the A, then the G to the D, and finally the E to the A. Then a quick check of all four strings to make sure nothing has slipped, and he's ready to start. He'll probably be tuning from the pegs (except for the E) and you'll see him playing the A and D together as he moves the D up and down either side of its pitch and listening to the difference beat until it disappears. Then he'll do the same with the G and the D, and the E and A. For an experienced player it's quite a quick process.
It's important that you can bow with even pressure on two strings, so some basic bowing control needs to be learned first, and it's equally important that the strings move easily and smoothly in the grooves in the nut and bridge. Life gets difficult if a string sticks and suddenly moves too much. If you tune from the pegs then it is obviously important that the pegs turn smoothly and remain in position when you stop turning them. This is where a competent luthier earns his money setting up an instrument.
What is so characteristic of a fiddle when it gets perfectly in tune is the golden resonance, and this again is what the experienced player listens for.
I was talking about bowing, but you can also tune in the way I have described by plucking the strings (usually at halfway), but I think that needs more experience.
When you've mastered the art of tuning your general playing will be markedly better in tune - because your ears are now trained - and other benefits like tone quality will quickly follow.
I only use a tuner to get a rough idea if the fiddle's way off - because the tuner isn't enough - it is the golden resonance mentioned above that tells me when it's right. The difference between the tuner and the sound I want is very slight but enough to alter how happy I am playing!!
Once again Lazyhound comes up with the goods! The problem for me is having a good A to start with. Not having a piano/keyboard or other set instrument in the house made this impossible. Hence having a tuner helped me to identify the original A I needed, then once you've got it out, why not just use it to tune the other strings? A bad habit easily slipped into.
The problem with anyone is having a good A to start with. Give me an A from an oboe and I can tune my mandolin, and I am a self confessed musical moron, as well as the best bodhran player in the world, which may be the same thing.
Even some of those with superb ears that I know, can tune the A string up on their own until they believe they have it. Then tune the rest of the instrument.
99 times out of a hundred, the world's super duper infallible tuner will show that they are slightly out.
And if there is an accordion around with more than just one voice then the whole outfit is constantly out of tune say from 4 to 30 cents depending. ....
Thank you everyone, lazyhound especially. Gah, I don't know why I didn't think of beat frequencies before; it's not like I didn't minor in physics for a spell...anyway, I'll try listening for beats when I get home tonight. Good timing, this, as I'm trying out a fiddle that I'll probably end up buying this weekend. I should be able to see if it's decently set up, too. (I tried feeling for sympathetic vibrations on my old, cheap piece of crap rental fiddle awhile back, but couldn't. That worried me; I'd slide my third finger up and down the A string, starting with an obviously flat D and ending with an obviously sharp one, but my D string didn't respond. On the new fiddle, my D string vibrates nicely when I find the D on the A string, which is a good sign.)
Llig leahcim - heh, that makes me feel better about having to sing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" to myself every time I try to tune by ear. Helps that I can vocally match all of the open strings, although the E is a bit of a stretch. But I'm often off by a few cents, and that's the problem; I guess I can tune my fiddle in somewhat imperfect fifths by ear...
Bodhran bliss - yup, I'm following. Don't worry about getting too technical with me; I know enough about music that I can hold my own *talking* about music with far more experienced musicians. Playing, on the other hand...
Idiot: Concert pitch is not relevent. Tune to A440 if your company is comprised of easily tuneable instruments - if you want to.
But the most important thing about tuning with regards to this music is you must be open and flexible to someone who may come in with an instrument that is a little harder or even impossible to tune. Or even be flexible to a promising musician who may starting to play good music but might have their, fiddle say?, in tune with itself, but not with yourselves.
TDM, here are some more tips I learned from my teacher...
1. One of the hardest things is learning to hear the "beats". For me, it was easiest when I was tuning the G string---I think the beats are more pronounced on the lower strings or something. Take the G out of tune, below pitch, play the G and D together, and smoothly bring the G up to pitch until the beats go away. Do it lots of times until you can really hear the difference. It took me a few days of this when I first started, but you get the hang of it and start to trust yourself more.
2. Lazyhound's point on smooth bowing of two strings is important, because you need to have an equal tone coming out of both strings to be able to hear the beats properly. For a while I had to practice just bowing two open strings to get it with any kind of confidence.
3. Now for the hard part---manipulating the pegs at the same time that you're bowing two strings. You can't just grab the peg and turn because you won't be able to also push it into the pegbox, and it will slip. And you can't grab the peg with one hand and push the other way on the pegbox with the other hand because you need that hand for bowing the strings. The way I've learned to do it, at least for the G and D strings, is to loop my fourth finger around the end of the scroll and turn the peg with my thumb and first two fingers. That way I can turn them and keep some kind of pressure on them at the same time. The D string is easier because it's closest to the scroll, but for the G string you spread your hand out a little and stretch the fourth finger more. It's awkward at first, but you get a feel for it after a while.
4. For the E string I reach my left hand underneath your bowing arm to turn the fine tuner as I bow. I'm still having difficulty hearing beats on this string so I cheat with the tuner sometimes, but it's getting better.
Anyway, that's how I do it. I still can't tune by just plucking a string, don't know if there's a trick to that or not. Let us know how you progress with it!
Tuning by plucking the strings (we're talking fiddle here) is not as good, but it has it's advantages. mainly it can be done quietly while some one else may be playing a tune.
Hold your fiddle upright on your lap with the strings towards your body and press the scroll into your ear. Pluck the strings lightly (this is very important as the pitch sharpens a litle if you pluck it hard) and tune to the music and'or follow he same "beats" stuff from above.
I wasn't asking you, Tall Dark, I was asking Mr Llig, who graciously replied and told me I was an idiot, and pointed out that concert was not important. Thanks Mr Llig.
So this week I can just tune up by ear in the house, the fiddle player can tune to A442, the guitar to A454, and the banjo, sure as long as it is open and flexible.
Well, that should save some time on Sunday, might even get a few more tunes in.
No, no, Michael, some people are too lazy/posey to tune in the house. You can't look good tuning in the house, no audience to perform to. Sometimes I think you fail to grasp the core of the discussion, Mr Llig.
Bliss, okay, you tune in the house, fine. I assume you check your tuning as the mandolin comes out of its case in the pub just to make sure it's still in tune?
I didn't mean with a tuner. I meant just plucking the strings before you launch into a tune, so that you don't end up playing a tune with an off-key instrument.
I dunno, it seems to me that that is what I would do...
Kennedy and llig - thanks, I'll try both of your suggestions; another chance to see how well set-up my new fiddle is. I feel so spoiled; this instrument is well-behaved enough that I haven't had to touch the pegs all week; my cheap rental was a lot more demanding. Mind you, I have four fine tuners on the new fiddle, so I won't have to contort myself so much to tune while bowing.
And I tune up before I leave home. Then I tune up again at the session. And I live in a pretty temperate climate; next week I'll be braving minus twenty degree weather, and the idea that my fiddle will hold its pitch through such an extreme temperature change is pretty laughable, really.
Michael writes: "Pluck the strings lightly (this is very important as the pitch sharpens a litle if you pluck it hard)"
I wish banjo players would pay attention to this. I've heard banjo players that will come in and play quietly if they don't know the tunes we're playing very well, and they'll have a rich lovely tone. Then we'll ask them to start a tune and they'll play quite a bit more aggressively since they know the tune. Suddenly their tone is all warped off pitch and awful sounding. Some banjo players know a lot of tunes they play aggressively on unfortunately
A tip - the A-string is the most difficult string to tune from the peg (which needs to be set up very well) so why not use a micrometer adjuster for this string as well as the E? I do it on one of my fiddles.
There is another method of tuning - or rather checking the tuning - which uses harmonics. Like plucking the string lightly, it can be done very quickly, quietly and unobtrusively. A beginner may not be ready for it because it needs the ability to move easily up and down the fingerboard and to place the fingers accurately on certain notes.
To check the tuning of the A against the E, lightly touch the A where you would play a fingered E and gently bow the string a little closer to the bridge than you normally would. This point is exactly one-third of the length of the string. Remember the harmonic note you hear. Then lightly touch the E string exactly halfway along its length, bow the string and listen to the harmonic note produced. If the A and E strings are tuned exactly a 5th apart the two harmonics should sound identical. The D against the A, and the G against the D are checked the same way.
For this method of checking the tuning to work reliably it is essential that the bridge is exactly square across the fiddle so that the string lengths are identical, the strings are reasonable clean (i.e. not plastered with rosin), and that the player is deadly accurate with his finger placement on those harmonics, because if he isn't all he'll get will be meaningless squeaks. The bowing must be very light and gentle with just the edge of the hair. These requirements are why this method isn't generally suitable for the beginner.
Don't over-analyze this task or get bogged down in technical details. Just listen; not merely hear, but listen.
When starting out bow the two strings lightly and adjust the pitch of the string that you're tuning up until it's obviously sharp and down until it's obviously flat. Then adjust the pitch up and down within that area until you hear them come into tune--trust me, if you're listening you'll hear it.
After a bit of practice you'll be able to tell when the string is sharp or flat and know which way to go to begin with. It's really not that hard, just use your ear not your intellect.
Sir Thomas Beecham was putting the London Symphony Orchestra through it's paces one day and asked the oboe player for an A.He produced it with a very wide vibrato.Sir Thomas turned the the orchestra and said "Gentlemen,take your pick!"
Lazyhound, when I get these pegs replaced and the peg box repaired I'll be down for a lesson... Your descriptions was very clear and not out of synch with what Screetch has just offered...
The other piper at my session sometimes likes to mess with the banjo player when asked for his A. He'll start by giving her a decent A, the way he'd probably play it while playing a tune, but as the banjo player tunes her banjo to that A, the piper will subtlely increase pressure on the bag so the A goes sharp and the banjo keeps tuning up along with him Then he'll back off on the bag and suddenly the banjo is way sharp. Hee hee.
I want to thank llig for the scroll-in-the-ear tip! It works - I've just tried it! ! I don't need a tuner any more - I'll need to stick the tuning fork in the other ear though.
Scroll in the ear - yes, done that for ages. Also ear against the guitar upper bout - but not so good for tuning a low D if in a very noisy room.
Come to think of it, you can always hear the session more clearly in the pub toilets, so perhaps you could get someone to pluck your g-string when you go to the bog - then phone them with your mobile to say if they're shanks or fart, or if they've played a bum note
Hmm.. not many will fully get that pun, but I'm sure KML, amongst some others will.
One thing about the cello is that the scroll is very near the ear, so it's easy to put the ear against one of the pegs for a quick and very quiet check on tuning.
Tuning by ear
Tuning by ear
All right, I've read through all 86 comments on the thread on electronic tuners, and for all the anti-tuner conviction, I have yet seen the following addressed:
HOW does one learn to tune properly by ear, without electronic aids? I know it can be done, and I know that's how it was done lo these many years ago, in the days before electronic tuners; but I see very little discussion about how people develop such accurate relative pitch, let alone how I can train myself to do it.
I have a decent ear, but hell if I can reliably tell the difference between the just-intonation perfect fifth, and the equal temperament perfect fifth. Given that we're talking about differences of a tenth of one percent here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament#Comparison_to_just_intonation), I'm not wholly convinced that everyone who claims that they can discern the difference really can. Moreover, that difference can't account for all of the horribly out of tune players at sessions. I mean, I know that an electonic tuner will compress the intervals, so I can (and do) tune my E string so that the tuner shows it to be slightly sharp, and the G so that it registers as a smidge flat. Problem solved, no?
I'm jealous of every fiddler who can pluck a pair of adjacent strings, squint at them, twist a fine tuner clockwise an eighth of a rotation, pluck the strings again, and go off satisfied that his or her instrument is now in tune. But I can't. (For what it's worth, I find that I often can't tell if a string's slightly off (or I can tell that *something's* wrong, but I can't tell exactly what); but if it's is way off, I can tune it *exactly* to pitch.) How can I learn? For those of you who think that using tuners on fiddles is a substitute for skill, or that it's something that people do when they're too lazy to learn their instruments properly...could you tell me how a new fiddler can *develop* the ability to tune without external aids while also working on skills that are a lot easier to hone on a properly tuned instrument?
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Tuning by ear
You need a quiet room and most preferably an experienced player (not necessarily a teacher) to help you.
When two strings are almost a perfect 5th apart you should be able to hear a difference beat as you play them together. As you bring the strings into that perfect 5th that "beat" gets slower and slower and disappears. It's related to the differences between the frequencies of the open strings and their harmonics. When you get the strings into that perfect 5th you should be able to detect a distinctive difference note which is an octave below the lower string. This is difficult to describe in words, which is where you need the other person to show you what to listen for - which is why you need a quiet room.
If you watch a concert violinist tuning up when he's on stage he'll first take an A from the orchestral oboe, then he'll tune the D to the A, then the G to the D, and finally the E to the A. Then a quick check of all four strings to make sure nothing has slipped, and he's ready to start. He'll probably be tuning from the pegs (except for the E) and you'll see him playing the A and D together as he moves the D up and down either side of its pitch and listening to the difference beat until it disappears. Then he'll do the same with the G and the D, and the E and A. For an experienced player it's quite a quick process.
It's important that you can bow with even pressure on two strings, so some basic bowing control needs to be learned first, and it's equally important that the strings move easily and smoothly in the grooves in the nut and bridge. Life gets difficult if a string sticks and suddenly moves too much. If you tune from the pegs then it is obviously important that the pegs turn smoothly and remain in position when you stop turning them. This is where a competent luthier earns his money setting up an instrument.
What is so characteristic of a fiddle when it gets perfectly in tune is the golden resonance, and this again is what the experienced player listens for.
I was talking about bowing, but you can also tune in the way I have described by plucking the strings (usually at halfway), but I think that needs more experience.
When you've mastered the art of tuning your general playing will be markedly better in tune - because your ears are now trained - and other benefits like tone quality will quickly follow.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tuning by ear
Just call Trevor's Quick Toon service and he'll pop right over and tune it for you.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Tuning by ear
I only use a tuner to get a rough idea if the fiddle's way off - because the tuner isn't enough - it is the golden resonance mentioned above that tells me when it's right. The difference between the tuner and the sound I want is very slight but enough to alter how happy I am playing!!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Tarrantella
Re: Tuning by ear
Once again Lazyhound comes up with the goods! The problem for me is having a good A to start with. Not having a piano/keyboard or other set instrument in the house made this impossible. Hence having a tuner helped me to identify the original A I needed, then once you've got it out, why not just use it to tune the other strings? A bad habit easily slipped into.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bowburner
Re: Tuning by ear
You might find this helpful - 'Ear Training':
http://cnx.org/content/m12401/latest/
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: Tuning by ear
The problem with anyone is having a good A to start with. Give me an A from an oboe and I can tune my mandolin, and I am a self confessed musical moron, as well as the best bodhran player in the world, which may be the same thing.
Even some of those with superb ears that I know, can tune the A string up on their own until they believe they have it. Then tune the rest of the instrument.
99 times out of a hundred, the world's super duper infallible tuner will show that they are slightly out.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: morton's fork
yes,having the 'A' is the big thingy.
i find a tuning fork is fine to give the 'A' and then you can tune from that.but then i don't have perfect pitch.
btw,everything will be 'slightly out' anyway in much the same way that drum machines will prove a human is 'slightly out'.
that's ok for all you kraftwerk fressers i daresay but what about vthe golden thread,ay? ay? ay?(vocal crescendo in that last bit...)
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by biggus dave
Re: Tuning by ear
And if there is an accordion around with more than just one voice then the whole outfit is constantly out of tune say from 4 to 30 cents depending. ....
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Risto
Re: Tuning by ear
If you can sing "ba ba black sheep" You can tune your fiddle/mandolin
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Tuning by ear
But will it be in concert? You do know what we are talking about here? Concert pitch? I hope we are not being too technical.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Tuning by ear
Thank you everyone, lazyhound especially. Gah, I don't know why I didn't think of beat frequencies before; it's not like I didn't minor in physics for a spell...anyway, I'll try listening for beats when I get home tonight. Good timing, this, as I'm trying out a fiddle that I'll probably end up buying this weekend. I should be able to see if it's decently set up, too. (I tried feeling for sympathetic vibrations on my old, cheap piece of crap rental fiddle awhile back, but couldn't. That worried me; I'd slide my third finger up and down the A string, starting with an obviously flat D and ending with an obviously sharp one, but my D string didn't respond. On the new fiddle, my D string vibrates nicely when I find the D on the A string, which is a good sign.)
Llig leahcim - heh, that makes me feel better about having to sing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" to myself every time I try to tune by ear. Helps that I can vocally match all of the open strings, although the E is a bit of a stretch. But I'm often off by a few cents, and that's the problem; I guess I can tune my fiddle in somewhat imperfect fifths by ear...
Bodhran bliss - yup, I'm following. Don't worry about getting too technical with me; I know enough about music that I can hold my own *talking* about music with far more experienced musicians. Playing, on the other hand...
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Tuning by ear
Idiot: Concert pitch is not relevent. Tune to A440 if your company is comprised of easily tuneable instruments - if you want to.
But the most important thing about tuning with regards to this music is you must be open and flexible to someone who may come in with an instrument that is a little harder or even impossible to tune. Or even be flexible to a promising musician who may starting to play good music but might have their, fiddle say?, in tune with itself, but not with yourselves.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Tuning by ear
TDM, here are some more tips I learned from my teacher...
1. One of the hardest things is learning to hear the "beats". For me, it was easiest when I was tuning the G string---I think the beats are more pronounced on the lower strings or something. Take the G out of tune, below pitch, play the G and D together, and smoothly bring the G up to pitch until the beats go away. Do it lots of times until you can really hear the difference. It took me a few days of this when I first started, but you get the hang of it and start to trust yourself more.
2. Lazyhound's point on smooth bowing of two strings is important, because you need to have an equal tone coming out of both strings to be able to hear the beats properly. For a while I had to practice just bowing two open strings to get it with any kind of confidence.
3. Now for the hard part---manipulating the pegs at the same time that you're bowing two strings. You can't just grab the peg and turn because you won't be able to also push it into the pegbox, and it will slip. And you can't grab the peg with one hand and push the other way on the pegbox with the other hand because you need that hand for bowing the strings. The way I've learned to do it, at least for the G and D strings, is to loop my fourth finger around the end of the scroll and turn the peg with my thumb and first two fingers. That way I can turn them and keep some kind of pressure on them at the same time. The D string is easier because it's closest to the scroll, but for the G string you spread your hand out a little and stretch the fourth finger more. It's awkward at first, but you get a feel for it after a while.
4. For the E string I reach my left hand underneath your bowing arm to turn the fine tuner as I bow. I'm still having difficulty hearing beats on this string so I cheat with the tuner sometimes, but it's getting better.
Anyway, that's how I do it. I still can't tune by just plucking a string, don't know if there's a trick to that or not. Let us know how you progress with it!
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Tuning by ear
Tuning by plucking the strings (we're talking fiddle here) is not as good, but it has it's advantages. mainly it can be done quietly while some one else may be playing a tune.
Hold your fiddle upright on your lap with the strings towards your body and press the scroll into your ear. Pluck the strings lightly (this is very important as the pitch sharpens a litle if you pluck it hard) and tune to the music and'or follow he same "beats" stuff from above.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Tuning by ear
I wasn't asking you, Tall Dark, I was asking Mr Llig, who graciously replied and told me I was an idiot, and pointed out that concert was not important. Thanks Mr Llig.
So this week I can just tune up by ear in the house, the fiddle player can tune to A442, the guitar to A454, and the banjo, sure as long as it is open and flexible.
Well, that should save some time on Sunday, might even get a few more tunes in.
Thanks again, Mr Llig, my inspiration.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Tuning by ear
Press the scroll into my ear, huh? I'm going to have to try that one. Thanks!
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Tuning by ear
ha ha ha, everbody tunes up in the house before coming out to play? ha ho ho tee tee he
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Tuning by ear
I don't bother at all, since I play the flute anyway I'm always out of tune.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Linsey Doyle
Re: Tuning by ear
Yeah, the scroll in your ear, it works. But remember to pluck the string very lightly.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Tuning by ear
No, no, Michael, some people are too lazy/posey to tune in the house. You can't look good tuning in the house, no audience to perform to. Sometimes I think you fail to grasp the core of the discussion, Mr Llig.
But you are still my hero, for effort.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Tuning by ear
Bliss, okay, you tune in the house, fine. I assume you check your tuning as the mandolin comes out of its case in the pub just to make sure it's still in tune?
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Tuning by ear
As my local MP is fond of saying, "NEVER".
Once you start playing any eejit with an ear would know if it was in tune. Even Mr llig claims to be able to do that.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Tuning by ear
I didn't mean with a tuner. I meant just plucking the strings before you launch into a tune, so that you don't end up playing a tune with an off-key instrument.
I dunno, it seems to me that that is what I would do...
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Tuning by ear
Kennedy and llig - thanks, I'll try both of your suggestions; another chance to see how well set-up my new fiddle is. I feel so spoiled; this instrument is well-behaved enough that I haven't had to touch the pegs all week; my cheap rental was a lot more demanding. Mind you, I have four fine tuners on the new fiddle, so I won't have to contort myself so much to tune while bowing.
And I tune up before I leave home. Then I tune up again at the session. And I live in a pretty temperate climate; next week I'll be braving minus twenty degree weather, and the idea that my fiddle will hold its pitch through such an extreme temperature change is pretty laughable, really.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Tuning by ear
Michael writes: "Pluck the strings lightly (this is very important as the pitch sharpens a litle if you pluck it hard)"
I wish banjo players would pay attention to this. I've heard banjo players that will come in and play quietly if they don't know the tunes we're playing very well, and they'll have a rich lovely tone. Then we'll ask them to start a tune and they'll play quite a bit more aggressively since they know the tune. Suddenly their tone is all warped off pitch and awful sounding. Some banjo players know a lot of tunes they play aggressively on unfortunately
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Tuning by ear
I don't live in Canada.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Tuning by ear
A tip - the A-string is the most difficult string to tune from the peg (which needs to be set up very well) so why not use a micrometer adjuster for this string as well as the E? I do it on one of my fiddles.
There is another method of tuning - or rather checking the tuning - which uses harmonics. Like plucking the string lightly, it can be done very quickly, quietly and unobtrusively. A beginner may not be ready for it because it needs the ability to move easily up and down the fingerboard and to place the fingers accurately on certain notes.
To check the tuning of the A against the E, lightly touch the A where you would play a fingered E and gently bow the string a little closer to the bridge than you normally would. This point is exactly one-third of the length of the string. Remember the harmonic note you hear. Then lightly touch the E string exactly halfway along its length, bow the string and listen to the harmonic note produced. If the A and E strings are tuned exactly a 5th apart the two harmonics should sound identical. The D against the A, and the G against the D are checked the same way.
For this method of checking the tuning to work reliably it is essential that the bridge is exactly square across the fiddle so that the string lengths are identical, the strings are reasonable clean (i.e. not plastered with rosin), and that the player is deadly accurate with his finger placement on those harmonics, because if he isn't all he'll get will be meaningless squeaks. The bowing must be very light and gentle with just the edge of the hair. These requirements are why this method isn't generally suitable for the beginner.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tuning by ear
Don't over-analyze this task or get bogged down in technical details. Just listen; not merely hear, but listen.
When starting out bow the two strings lightly and adjust the pitch of the string that you're tuning up until it's obviously sharp and down until it's obviously flat. Then adjust the pitch up and down within that area until you hear them come into tune--trust me, if you're listening you'll hear it.
After a bit of practice you'll be able to tell when the string is sharp or flat and know which way to go to begin with. It's really not that hard, just use your ear not your intellect.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Marklar
Re: Tuning by ear
Sir Thomas Beecham was putting the London Symphony Orchestr
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by dafydd
Re: Tuning by ear
Sir Thomas Beecham was putting the London Symphony Orchestra through it's paces one day and asked the oboe player for an A.He produced it with a very wide vibrato.Sir Thomas turned the the orchestra and said "Gentlemen,take your pick!"
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by dafydd
Re: Tuning by ear
I plead senility.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by dafydd
Re: Tuning by ear
Damn vibrato!!!
Lazyhound, when I get these pegs replaced and the peg box repaired I'll be down for a lesson... Your descriptions was very clear and not out of synch with what Screetch has just offered...
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Tuning by ear
The other piper at my session sometimes likes to mess with the banjo player when asked for his A. He'll start by giving her a decent A, the way he'd probably play it while playing a tune, but as the banjo player tunes her banjo to that A, the piper will subtlely increase pressure on the bag so the A goes sharp and the banjo keeps tuning up along with him Then he'll back off on the bag and suddenly the banjo is way sharp.
Hee hee.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by seisflutes
Re: Tuning by ear
I want to thank llig for the scroll-in-the-ear tip! It works - I've just tried it! ! I don't need a tuner any more - I'll need to stick the tuning fork in the other ear though.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by RichardB
Re: Tuning by ear
Don't forget to stick the tip of your bow in your ear to make sure the tension is correct.
Just kidding, I'm with RichardB, that's a very clever and useful tip.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Marklar
Re: Tuning by ear
Scroll in the ear - yes, done that for ages. Also ear against the guitar upper bout - but not so good for tuning a low D if in a very noisy room.
Come to think of it, you can always hear the session more clearly in the pub toilets, so perhaps you could get someone to pluck your g-string when you go to the bog - then phone them with your mobile to say if they're shanks or fart, or if they've played a bum note
Hmm.. not many will fully get that pun, but I'm sure KML, amongst some others will.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Ron P
Re: Tuning by ear
One thing about the cello is that the scroll is very near the ear, so it's easy to put the ear against one of the pegs for a quick and very quiet check on tuning.
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by Trevor Jennings