I keep noticing people apologising for using electronic tuners. WHY?
Is it a posers thing, "Oh I tune by ear". Some people were saying they used a tuner to give them confidence. You use a tuner because it will be right. I don't care how good an ear you have, you are not as good as a tuner.
So before we go out I tune the mandolin with a tuner, and the guitarist does the same. The "musicians/posers" then tune off us. Why not just tune up at home? With a tuner. Saves time, or does tuning up "look good".
I have no objection to everyone tuning to an accordian or whatever, but there should be no need to apologise for using a tuner.
Is tuning by ear just a "performance?"
And don't post it should be poseur. I am not French.
A plug in (or clip on) tuner means people can set up without disturbing the rest of the session if it's already in full flow.
I know a couple of 'ear' tuners who seem to be a bit deaf. I've often heard them wipe out a quieter instrument which was attempting to start a new set, totally oblivious to everything but their own instrument.
"I don't care how good an ear you have, you are not as good as a tuner"
Maybe for some instruments, but not fiddle, at least. Just intonation and all that. I'm a beginner and even I can tell the difference.
Tuning up at home is definitely a good idea, though...unless you happen to be going to a session right after work...I don't think my office mates would appreciate the noise...
I find if I tune my fiddle at home the chances are high that it will be out of tune by the time it reaches the session. Playing an instrument (fiddle or a fretted instrument) for a few minutes in a session will send it out of tune - temperature and humidity changes plus the very action of fingering and bowing/plucking the strings are more than sufficient to do it. Flutes and whistles likewise change pitch as they warm up.
I don't use an electronic tuner; I use a tuning fork to give me an A, or I take an A from a box player or another fiddler who has just tuned to a good A, and I'm experienced enough to tune my A-string accurately by ear to such a source. I then tune the other strings in perfect 5ths from the tuned A by ear - an artificial tuning aid isn't necessary.
Although an electronic tuner is useful to give a A440 for the initial tuning, or A415 if you want to tune to Baroque pitch, I've long had my doubts about their accuracy for producing the perfect 5th intervals for the fiddle D, G and E. Their use for tuning all the strings on a fiddle is certainly not conducive to training the ear.
When I started learning the cello when I was 12 one of the very first things I was taught was how to tune it by ear. It wasn't until quite a while later that I discovered that until you can do that you won't be able to play in tune, either within the instrument or with other people.
Using an electronic tuner (the type that uses coloured lights or a needle on a scale, rather than emitting a pitched sound) teaches the player to use his eyes and not his ears. Which is more important for playing music?
A fiddle player should be able to retune by ear quietly without disturbing other players, and should be able retune (also by ear) when there's a lot going on in the session.
I can see the convenience of using a clip-on electronic tuner for checking the tuning of fretted instruments, especially the quieter ones, during a session, but it should never be necessary for a fiddle player.
Tuning by ear at home is one thing...tuning accurately under session conditions is quite another. I know a lot about aural tuning (see the screen name) but I think it makes sense to use an electronic tuner if you have one.
Yes, a tunable bodhran is essential for playing with other instruments. There are few things worse than a bodhran resonating in Eflat or C# when everyone else is playing in D! A clip-on tuner for a bodhran could be of invaluable assistance.
And I swear I have some china that only rattles on the shelf when I hit a high A spot on!
I try to tune by ear then check on my tuner, blush with mortification, adjust, and then wonder what is about my ear that means I always tune sharp by ear?
Trevor and kennedy, if you start with A440 and then tune your fiddle to perfect, just fifths, doesn't that make your other three open strings just slightly out of tune with equal-tempered instruments?
I'm grateful for electronic tuners. I've noticed over the years that the instruments in sessions and jams are much more likely to be in tune.
"I don't care how good an ear you have, you are not as good as a tuner."
Hey, I use an electronic tuner, and it's a good one too. But my ear notices a string is in or out of tune before the tuner does. My Sabine is about 5-6 years old, some of the new stuff is even better. Electronic tuners are great for tuning in noisy places where it's hard to hear.
So what's wrong with being able to do both, as the opportunity or need provides?
When I am on stage or at a session in a noisy environment, I cannot hear well enough to tune by ear. The electronic device is great. At home, it takes much less time to do it by ear.
I didn't read the above comments, maybe someone already said this.
Well, here's something I don't say everyday...Bodhran Bliss, I agree with you. I use a tuner all the time, and see nothing wrong with it. I have a good ear, but find it easier and quicker to tune by the tuner. People seem to want to brag about being able to tune by ear...get over yourselves already.
As long as you CAN tune by ear if required, a tuner is handy in a noisy session. It MUST be accurate and in tune with every one else though. So, the difficulty arises if you are tuning to a box or similar which cannot be readily retuned.
However, I can never understand why players don't/won't try to tune their instruments in concert pitch whenever possible. It's much easier to tune "by ear" in concert pitch as you have internalised the actual pitches of the notes..It's second nature and so much easier to get "back in tune" if a string goes out.
Also, if you have a GOOD tuner, there's no harm in using it in such a situation as it WILL be right as long as it is used properly(Quite often, this is the problem..not the tuner itself)
Tuners are an abomination. Trevor's put it far more gently, but the fact is, all the people I know who use one of those things end up with out of tune instruments. There was even the ludicrous situation a few weeks ago when I noticed two such players were significantly out from each other, and then both checked their instruments using their own tuner ... and the tuners were giving different notes! Not that they could hear that. Oh no. The tuner say it's right, so it must be right.
And piano accordions and other fixed pitch instruments have to be taken into account. There's absolutely no point tuning to a perfect A440 if the pa isn't at A440 ... and their pitch can change, just like other instruments, depending on temperature and humidity.
Tuning at home! Fine, provided you tune thoroughly again when you get to the session, because anything like a fiddle will have changed quite a bit ion the meantime.
What I think is worst about these wretched devices is that the people using them assume it means they're in tune and, as a result, it seems, they don't bother to listen any more. I'm going by the evidence of my ears here. How else can you explain why it's the people with tuners who are always out of tune?
btw, I'm not bragging. If you can't tune by ear, you can't play your instrument. It's not something to brag about - it's just a basic requirement.
Try tuning a mandolin if you're not the first one at the session. Tuners help if you can barely hear your instrument. Sure, you should be able to tune by ear. But most accordions/concertinas and other free-reed instruments will be fairly close (just tuning and all) to concert pitch. At least with a tuner you're in the ballpark. Then adjust as needed.
Worse than a person tuning to a tuner and assuming they're in pitch is the person tuning by ear and assuming they're in pitch. Flutes, pennywhistles and fiddles often seem to be certain that they are in tune despite all evidence to the contrary.
I tune my fiddle with an A tuning fork and then by ear.That's not boasting nor is it a performance,I just come from a time when the first step in mastering an instrument was to learn to tune it.A few years ago I played a gig and the support was a young singer.Just before it started the promoter came backstage and asked me for assistance.The young lady was in tears in the wings,she'd forgotten her tuner and couldn't tune her guitar.Rather sad really.Electronic tuners are good for a surreptitious check onstage.What happens if you slip out of tune during a set? The ear tuners can retune on the fly.
By "just tuning and all" did you mean "just temperament"? 'Cos if you did, they're not. I think they use equal temperament, as opposed to either just temperament or well temperament. But none of that matters if the A isn't where people have set their tuners. And unless every-single-person-who's-ever-used-a-tuner-in-any-session-I've-ever-been-to can't use a tuner ... then, tuners are never set where the accordion player has his/her A.
I used to play mandolin, btw. People used to say I was quite good at it (they were being nice, I think), but it killed my fingers for fiddle, so I stopped.
Benhall has a point too.Despite what Bobhimself says,these tuners often are not calibrated with each other.The people at our session get around this by passing around one tuner.And then of course a box player strolls in and we all have to retune.Anyone can learn to tune by ear all it takes is practice.
I think you should deffinantly put in the effort to learn to tune by ear. It is not always possible to use a tuner and besides being able to tune by ear and tune to other instruments makes you more flexiable when playing. But there is no reason why you couldn't also use a tuner, eaither to start you off or check your own tuning afterwards. Especially with something like a fiddle, if you a beginner ( like me) it makes playing much more difficult if you strings are out as your still learning where to put your fingers acurately. And tuning by ear can be difficult. I have been playing guitar for 16 years and i still have trouble if my low E is out, tuning the rest. I have to say i was pleasantly surpirsed when i started on the fiddle that the strings are so much shorted then the guitar and they tune up so quickly. With a guitar your turning the pegs for hours just getting the strings tight.
I think the box players will have to speak for themselves regarding just temperament tuning . But while I firmly advocate learning to tune by ear, using a tuner is no bad thing. A modern tuner can be extremely accurate. Most of them can also use something other than A=440, so that should be checked.
If you can't hear when you're out of tune with the session, that's a problem that ear tuning isn't going to fix. If you can hear it, then the tuner isn't going to hinder.
I reckon I can tune pretty well by ear but I don't have perfect pitch so a tuner helps me to find concert. Sometimes I'll just tune one string (on the guitar that would be the D string) with the tuner and then tune the other strings to the tuned string. Sometimes I'll tune all the strings with the tuner if it's noisy and I can't hear the harmonic series of the notes. But I would always check by ear and make minor adjustments.
If your instrument is perfectly set up then tuning with a tuner should put the instrument perfectly in tune. Trouble is 99.9% of instruments are not set up perfectly so you have to make adjustments by ear. On one of my guitars I usually leave the bottom string ten cents flat, for example, because the scale length is too short (saddle not angled enough).
For mandolin/mandola I tune one of each pair with the tuner and then, if it's too noisy, nip off to the bog to tune the others by ear.
In my experience tuners are very accurate. I've been using my TU-12 for twenty years and it has never let me down (apart from when a big bloke sat on it when it was under my coat). I find it is usually the person using the tuner who is not very accurate.
In conclusion, tuners are great. BUT you should also be able to tune by ear in perfect situations (i.e., total silence).
Something no one seems to have picked up on is that the fiddle has no frets, so one is, in effect, tuning all the time whilst playing by making micro adjustments of the fingers on the finger board! I don't think a tuner could keep up...
I'm not against electronic tuners as such, but I suggest that, for fiddle at least, they give a good starting point and nothing more.
Rhod, I would say that "they give a good starting point and nothing more" applies to most instruments. Fiddlers can often in my experience be a bit superior when it comes to tuning because their instruments are relatively easy to put in tune.
When I tried to tell a fiddler friend of mine to retune her slipped A string before retuning the other strings she bit my head off and told me not to tell her how to tune her instrument. So I let her go ahead and detune the E string to concert then tune the A string up to concert and then retune te now out of tune E string back up to concert.
The box players of course are able to speak for themselves, but they definitely don't have "just temperament" - can't possibly, or they'd be horribly out of tune in all but one key.
However well a guitar is set up, it should not be tuned on an equal temperament basis. Guitars have their own, unique difficulties with regards to tuning, especially in relation to the G and B strings. I don't fully understand the theory on that one, but I know from listening that you have to tune the G and B strings some way off what they would be in equealt temperament. As an experiment, try tuning a guitar "perfectly" and then play a few different chords. I'd be surprised if you don't find it absolutely necessary to re-tune.
Agreed. I used to play classical guitar. BUT...a tuner is a good start. It gets them in the ballpark. You say that a tuner might not get them right...fine, it might not. But if they can't recognize that they're out of tune with the rest of the session after tuning with the tuner, then they might well be incapable of learning to tune by ear anyway.
"there should be no need to apologise for using a tuner." I'll second that Bliss!
No apology from me! Well, I'd would be foolish to claim that I didn't use a tuner here, cause you've seen me use mine Bliss!
But I make no apologies cause I find them great for sorting out my Mandolin & also my Fiddle.
To be honest, after a week teaching music to young school pupils, whose intonation is never the best, by Friday night my ears are usually shot & they need all the help I can give them.
Each week though I find myself playing at some stage with Northumbrian Pipes - in F-ish, Scottish Smallpipes in A-ish & Uilleann Pipes in C#-ish or B-ish, so in those situations my tuner aint much help to me, but for concert pitch sessions I wouldn't be without mine ...................... especially when it comes to tuning the 52 strings on my trusty Hammered Dulcimer!
Just to qualify, in light of benhall.1's attack on their use, I must confess that I didn't use one for the first twenty odd years of my playing so there might be something to his notion that you should learn to tune by ear first & once you have mastered that art, then you can make good use of a tuner in certain situations, when the need arrises.
To say:
NO - you should never use one
or
YES - you should always use one, is just being a silly billy! ( Ah Ted, how we miss you!)
If you read nothing else in this thread, do read Lazyhound's couple of posts near the top - they make total sense.
Tune up at home first? I do that, but there will always be the need to check and maybe retune on arrival at the session - temperature and humidity are bound to vary. I'm lucky that my fiddle seems fairly immune to such changes but I always recheck.
Tuners? I tend to use them (or a tuning fork) to get my A , and tune the rest by ear - I agree with views above that this is an essential part of being able to play the instrument - indeed it was one of the first things I had to learn. Of course, there is often the need to take the tuning from the box or other fixed pitch instrument.
Tuning up just 'looks good' or is 'a performance'? Ridiculous nonsense!
Benhall speaks sooth.If I use a tuner to tune my guitar (or anyone else's) I always have to make small adjustments to get certain chords in tune,usually the E And G major.I use the harmonics method and I find that it's just as accurate as a tuner.The great Leo Kottke says "I hate tuners,they erase my ears"
Equal temperament isn't everything.Listen to the 12 string guitar intro to the the Stones recording of As Tears Go By.If you checked it with a tuner it would be off,but it sounds right.
In the spirit of scientific enquiry I just tuned my guitar with a Korg tuner that someone recently gave me.The Emajor chord sounded awful and the harmonics were off and it would have been quicker to just tune with the harmonics.
Yes, but check your Korg tuner against set pitches and see if it is accurate. Guitar chords need a certain temperament. It is impossible to tune a mandolin when other instruments are already playing unless you have a tuner. It is annoying to tune a banjo if other instruments are already playing. By all means, use your ear, but the tuner is a handy tool. Not end all, be all, but handy.
Ha ha Bliss, what an eedjit, "I tune up before I go out" ha ha. Can you imagine a musician saying that? Reminds me of that old chestnut about the bloke taking his new guitar back to the shop, 'cause it was in tune when he bought it. ha ha
Ha ha, And why do you think the other "musicians" tune off you? Because you're feckin incapable of tuning off them you daft bat.
"But if they can't recognize that they're out of tune with the rest of the session after tuning with the tuner, then they might well be incapable of learning to tune by ear anyway."
Sorry, TaoCat, but that sounds to me like a recipe for permanent chaos and an acceptance of laziness and sloppiness on the part of those who can't be bothered to learn to tune properly. The evidence of my ears tells me that the very people who use a tuner are the people who are usually badly out of tune, and the only way they're going to improve is to train their ears properly in the first place. If they continue to rely on tuners, that will never happen.
If, having ACTUALLY TRIED, people are *still* incapable of "learning to tune", either with or without a tuner, then by all means go ahead and have them in your session. But don't expect me to be happy with them in mine.
(Domnull, I second your point about Trevor's earlier posts - he's a much more reasonable man than I. I wish I could be like that ... perhaps I need a device to help me with it ... there ... that's got it switched on ... *?!* b**l?! *s ... there, see? it's working perfectly! )
"I tune up before I go out" I smiled at that too.Why not go the whole hog and buy an insrument that's already in tune?
It's come to a pretty pass when someone who has learned to tune by ear is accused of being a poser and giving a performance.Do I detect a whiff of jealousy here?
I sincerly hope that this is a wind-up.
Whether it is a recipe for laziness is open to debate. I am curious to hear all of these faulty tuners that allow people to play "badly out of tune." My cheap tuner seems to be quite accurate.
And yes, I can tune by ear. It would be great if everybody did that. It's not gonna happen. And I find it annoying that people show up after the music has started and begin tuning, and not quietly either.
You seem to be saying tuners are always bad. I'm saying they're handy: no replacement for listening, but a handy start.
it goes like this, people who disdain tuners (piano, fork, electronic doesnt matter) and people who disdain the ear both need a good kick up the jacksie. Both are a tool, learn to use them wisely.
I fuss much less with my fiddle tuning than with the mandolin - electonic tuner essential for the latter. But a little electronic help has been useful in improving my intonation as an adult learner. People who proudly proclaim that their intonation is impeccable and that they can tune their strings to perfect 5ths, didn't spring from the womb with these skills. They were probably taught as youngsters by a music teacher who forcefully demonstrated the notes and scales and corrected the deficiencies. As I wasn't taught as a child, I've found tuning software very helpful - it can show in wave form the whole spectrum of any tone so you see all the secondary peaks This means you can tune your D and your E to the A peak and get a perfect 5th. Then you can tune the G against the D peak. Is it accurate? Perfectly, if you check it with a pitch fork. Of course you can't take this down the pub, but you can use it to train your ear and your recognition of intervals, which you can't do on a piano because it's equally tempered. Works for me, anyway. I've got an older version of this software: http://www.netcat.li/instrument-tuner/
I've also used it for tuning harmonicas (try doing that by ear!)
In orchestras the Oboe tunes to Concert pitch, then all is hushed and the oboe plays the A for the strings to tune to, then the strings are hushed while the woodwind tunes and then finally the brass. They do the same again after the interval. It would seem to me that everything is kept quiet for the tuning so it is easier to hear. In a session we don't have that kind of organisation, you have to tune up in a noisy pub with other instruments blasting out around you which can make it hard to tune properly, hence I use a tuner in sessions. I use my ears though to tell me if my fiddle is out of tune while I'm playing.
TaoCat, I think I *am* saying tuners are always bad. Or, to be more accurate, people who use them always seem to be badly out of tune. If they didn't rely on them as some sort of crutch, I think they'd stand a better chance of being in tune.
RichardB - you seem to be describing something completely different and, used as a tool for training your ear, well, maybe it works for you. Just so long as you *are* trying to train your ear, and not relaying on the musical equivalent of a TomTom (another ludicrous, useless, new-fangled device).
Isn’t it the “slightly out of tuneness with each other” that makes the ensemble sound so good? The reason a string section of an orchestra sounds so lush is the microtonal variation of everybody’s ears playing what they hear as “the” note all mixed up and coming out as a root mean square. The same thing happens (often with knobs on) at a session. That and a good dollop of untempered modality.
Be that as it may…when attempting to tune my baritone uke in the midst of the session, I use two bits of technology: pitch pipes and posing in the relative peace of the gentleman’s toilet. ("toot,toot, twang, twang") And does beer improve or deteriorate your ear?
"It's come to a pretty pass when someone who has learned to tune by ear is accused of being a poser and giving a performance" - I'm completely with you there, Dafydd.
Tuning forks? yes
Electronic tuners? yes (to get a benchmark A, say)
But pitchpipes (Yhaalhouse)??? No! - my experience is that they are useless, often way off pitch, and certainly do not give a 'pure' tone (ie a note of one frequency)
I always tune my guitar and my mando by ear .
With the fiddle however I do use a tuner also. Guess I'm just not comfortable enough not to use one yet.
I dont see any problem with using a tuner, as long as the instument is in tune afterwards.
With regards to beer ears. Your hearing deinitely gets better when your plastered. By better though, I mean tollerant.
It's my experience that people who don't use tuners afe often out of tune, but then perhaps I don't have players of the quality of benhall.1 and dafydd in my area.
Quite frankly it just strikes me as snobbishness to complain about their use. I suppose you could go on about them not being traditional but then so little about traditional music nowadays is traditional. For example, most players of traditional music I know wear underwear (though I have to confess I haven't checked this out). I think you will find that this has not always been the case.
Sure, each instrument has its own tuning idiosyncracies that can only be sorted by ear (but you could then see where it puts the needle and remember) but a tuner is a help and the fact is that the majority of the "musicians" I know can't tune their instruments by ear to what I would regard as acceptable to my ears.
As for tuning up before you go out, well I usually do that out of habit. I'll then check my tuning when I get to wherever I'm going. But if this causes some of you amusement it counterbalances the annoyance I experience when performers (yes, I know, a different breed of musician to us diddlers) start tuning up on stage because they couldn't be bothered to do it beforehand. And if I'm going into the studio rather than waste precious time i would try to get my guitar in tune beforehand (like last week, adding parts to a song by a guitar player who tunes by ear using harmonics - his A was 446).
Simply put: not all Tuners are the same. Try several brands of tuners and test them against one another and you'll see. Also; c'mon. You can't tune by ear? You're not a poser, but neither am I. I just tune by ear. And I'm always on. So are many musicians. If you can't tune by ear, fine. But a lot of us can and do trust our ear equally ( or better ) than three different "tuners" that give three different pitches.
"Quite frankly it just strikes me as snobbishness to complain about their use."
In what way is it "snobbish" to complain that, in my experience, everyone who does use a tuner is woefully out of tune? Or to complain that they are just too f*ck!ng lazy to learn their instrument properly?
btw, I'm not against things because they're "not traditional". If someone invented an electronic device for ensuring no-one ever banged a horribly out of tune wet piece of skin in my left ear - something *powerfully* electronic that could maybe attach to a chair - I'd go for it like a shot.
It's snobbish because to tune by ear is a skill that can take years to develop. I would say that after thirty five year's of playing my ability to tune by ear is still improving. the fact is that for a lot of beginning musicians (to use an Americanism) the tuner will make their instruments more in tune that if they could only use their ears. But I suppose you could always say "sorry, but if you can't tune satisfactorily by ear then you're not welcome here" or you could always offer to tune their instruments by ear for them.
I just don't see what is so offensive about tuners. And also some people have got bigger ears than me!
As i've already said, Farr, it's not the Tuners that differ, it's people's ability to use them.
Some Tuners are BETTER than others but in my experience different Tuners don't tune my instruments differently (although I never done this under scientific conditions - I would need a reference Tuner - I couldn't use my ears (they're biased)).
I'd kind of accept what you're saying, DonaldK, if using a tuner actually *did* make people's instruments more in tune. But, in my experience, it almost invariably seems to make it worse.
But I feel as if I'm being labelled "snobbish" for preferring people to be in tune, and to bother to learn the basic fundamentals of their instruments if they're going to inflict them on other people.
Actually ... fine. I'm a snob. I DO prefer music to be more or less in tune.
The session I go to has one tuner thats oassed to whoever needs it, when people come in and sit down with their instruments and there's a tune on the go it's handy for tuning discreetly, we can all tune by ear though, there's always pro's and cons. On the other hand when you do get an out of tune inconsiderate, handing them a tuner is an amazingly subltle way to say to them, YOUR OUT OF TUNE YA SAP!!!
Hey guys, let's not start to bully other people into adopting our preferred techniques for tuning up. Why not just learn to accept that there's more than one way to skin a Cat, so you do what works for you & let the other dude do his or her own thing & leave the bullying & snobbery to 'Big Brother'!
Be honest, when was the last time you were at a session when every instrument was perfectly in tune, all night long? Some instruments are quite simply more prone to drift up or down .................... & let's not get into blaming instruments weaknesses here, either.
I reckon Bodhran players must have the best ears for tuning up, cause you never see them using a tuner!
Just a thought. I'm no electrical engineer so I could be wrong. But is it possible that the electronic components of the tuners themselves may be susceptible to ambient temperature fluctuation? Increased temperature will cause increased resistance, won't it? And a materials resistivity has a temperature coefficient, has it not? And aren't the sensors magnetic, so may display temperature dependent hysteresis?
I'm just contemplating this, but it may explain different results observed in different tuners.
Oh, come on, let's get back to the snobbery aspect because that's much more fun. I've been told (but surely it can't be true?) that many people with a classical music background are inveterate snobs and would turn their noses up at fiddles costing less than 10 grand, don't talk to people who might consider using anything other than Eudoxas, and as for electronic tuners, well, dahling!!! These people have the benefit of expensive middle class educations and private lessons in...tuning by ear and stuff like that. Well I think your horny-handed fiddle-scraper of the last century but one would have given his eye-teeth (if he still had them) for a magic gizmo that helped him get somewhat in tune!
What, taking the p!ss out of each other is more fun than trying to understand the science or any truth as to why discrepancies exist?
Fair enough, now I know why earlier I couldn't be bothered contributing to this thread - no offence BB, though.
Hang on a minute Richard B!
Classically trained? Yes
Inveterate snob? Matter of opinion dahling
Fiddle cost over £10,000 Certainly not!
Expensive middle class education? Through the hard work of both my parents
Violin lessons? Yes and I had to work hard at it from age 7
Do I care whether you use a tuner or not? No!
But if I don't like you you'll know about it and if i do like you then you'll know it too. Also if you're a good musician I'll think you're good and if you're not I won't, regardless of class, financial status or any other stereotypical label you wish to pick for yourself. HUMPH!
Is the problem always out of tune instruments, or intonation while playing? I know that my left wrist (fiddle) tends to slide a little, especially when I'm really tired. I know when I'm off in intonation, and correct that. Obviously your instrument needs to be in tune to begin with.
I Know Richard B, it just makes it more interesting if I focus on the negative aspect of your post, and anyway, wasn't there even a small part of you that thought it might be true? Otherwise you may not have thought of it? Anyway, sometimes I just play out of tune to annoy people, depends if i'm in a grump or am bored and now I know how irritated people are by electronic tuners I might just start to use mine more often.....(Think I'd better go and have some chocolate!)
Pickled walnuts purchased.
Sorry Benhall, I didn't mean to imply you were a snob for wanting people to be in tune. I like people to be in tune as well and I agree that many people who use electronic tuners don't end up in tune. But then there are plenty of others who use electronic tuners who do end up in tune - it's just that they have better ears and know their instruments better (and that includes their tuner).
I was showing a friend of mine my wonderful new capo. He said he didn't use capos - they were just a sustitute for skill. So I pointed to the tuner stuck to the end of his twelve-string (not my favourite instrument, either) and said, "What about that then." He grinned and said, "Fair point"!
The maintenance (or lack therof) of the instruments affects the tone as well. I've seen fiddles with rosin build up, this changes the quality of tone and to someones ear, may sound "out of tune". I'd imagine the wind instruments require cleaning of oral secretions too.
Now I've met my troublecausing match in Richard B I have to disagree with Benhall and I'm right! Democracy is wonderful (as long as I'm in charge) and flautists are absolute dahlings!
(Anyone like the wooden spoon I got for Christmas? Great for stirring up trouble )
Reference has been made to the idiosyncratic tuning of guitars - going back to my classical guitar days, I'd go along with that. I have a recording of Boccherini's guitar quintets (for guitar and string quartet) played by Pepe Romero and members of The Academy of St Martin in the Fields (A London-based chamber orchestra, one of the world's best) - all musicians of the first rank. It is evident that the guitar and the quartet are unable to see eye-to-eye (or should it be "ear-to-ear"?) even at that level, and the overall intonation sounds distinctly damp in places.
There is a much more recent recording of the Russian virtuoso violinist Eduard Grach and an uncredited guitarist playing Paganini's sonatas for violin and guitar. Even here there are places where the intonation of the guitar and violin do not quite coincide.
I've played sonatas for cello and piano. The cello is normally tuned with just temperament (perfect 5ths between the strings), but if you have the cello A exactly in tune with the piano A (A220) you'll find that the other cello strings aren't exactly in tune with the corresponding notes on the piano because the piano is tuned to equal temperament. The differences in terms of Hz are fairly small, as this table shows:
Mathematically, you get the just temperament frequencies of the cello strings by dividing 220 successively by 1.5.
The equal temperament calculation is slightly more complicated because the octave has to be divided into 12 equal semitones. This is done by calculating the 12th root of 2 to get the number 1.05946309436. Dividing 220 successively by this number will give you the frequencies of all the semitones in the octave below A220. All that remains to be done is to select those corresponding to G, D and C, and further divide the figures for G and C by 2 to get them into the next octave below to match the cello frequencies.
I don't think it is a practical proposition to tune the cello strings exactly to the piano, for a number of reasons. If you tune the strings slightly away from true 5th (very slightly sharpening the C, G and D to bring them up to the piano pitch ) you're going to modify the resonance of the cello - it will sound overall "out of tune". This phenomenon, an important one, enables an experienced player to detect when a string slips out of tune when he's playing, even if he's not using that string at that moment. The difference between the just temperament and equal temperament is often going to be masked by a natural change in pitch (it goes sharp) of the open string if you play loudly, and on fingered notes by vibrato and the fact that a good player will subconsciously often alter his intonation to match the piano. By and large, I think it is better for the cellist to tune the open strings to just intonation. Same applies to the fiddle of course.
Benhall is The Decider. Someone has to be The Decider, and so that's that. Have all your little discussions, but in the end the troops are going .... (oops, wrong discussion.)
benhall.1, "I'd kind of accept what you're saying, DonaldK, if using a tuner actually *did* make people's instruments more in tune. But, in my experience, it almost invariably seems to make it worse."
Seriously, though, how many specific examples of people using tuners and still being wildly out of tune do you have actual experience with? Is the the same couple of "tin ear" guys coming to a session you attend who can't seem to tune correctly ... or are you claiming a "large" number?
I've got two different electronic tuners and an "A' tuning fork ... the fork is not exactly 440, according to BOTH of my tuners (and, surprisingly by almost exactly the same deviation).
Despite the fact that I do know how to tune by ear (at least after hearing the A that I'm trying to be in tune with) I find it's just much faster to use the tuner (especially on my mando).
Most of the folks at my sessions do use electronic tuners (especially the mando and guitar players) and we seem to be pretty well in tune for most of the night....
"Anyone who disagrees with me is just plain wrong." - Strangely, that statement reminds me of that old proverb: "Arrogance is Bliss"! ..... or was it ignorance? Of course I could just be mixing my semaphores there!
OK Bowburner, you can have your big wooden spoon back now!
I once went to a session in town (no I don't do that often, I don't like pubs for music), we were playing away nicely, whistle, one or two flutes, two fiddles and a concertina I think all nicely tuned to eachother . In comes the typical Dub with a bouzouki, sits down gets the yoke out tunes with a tuner. Joins in mid set and rather loud. He is not in tune with the rest of the session. After the thrid set he says: 'Jeez guys, yez are not in tune if you don't mind me saying.'
Really, box players should get themselves tuned to concert pitch (unless they make a habit of playing with pipers, in which case tune to the pipes). Then, if everyone tunes to the box then the session should be in tune even if one person does use a tuner at a session. Personally, I wouldn't use one at a session, but only because I wouldn't rely on the session to be in tune. On stage, however, they are incredibly useful, especially if there's a lot of changing tunings involved as it makes tuning that much faster. Plus a high-end tuner will allow you to tune to just intonation of a certain scale as well as alter the reference A (although it would require re-tuning for each new key).
Re: tuning to perfect 5ths - are boxes equally tempered or tuned to a just scale? Ditto, is the it a just int. 5th (if it's a D/G) or a equally tempered 5th between rows? Or if it's a semi-tone box is the semitone based on equal temp. or just int.? It's worth pointing out that tuning an instrument to just int. means that you won't quite be in tune in a different key (although if its fretless you can adjust by finger position).
Just to prove a point, we put an electronic tuner on the bridge of a double bass and on the tuning head ........ and yes, it showed 2 different notes. Bass players can't win.
Many years ago, when I was learning the classical guitar my teacher borrowed my guitar for a concert he was giving. This was in addition to his own instrument. He was playing a number of works with mixed tuning - some with the standard classical EADGBE and others with a dropped tuning DADF#BE . If he had used just one instrument he would have had to do several retunings during the concert, and a common problem is that if you tune the low E down to D there can be a memory effect in the string and it tries to climb back to its original pitch. Two guitars with different permanent tunings was the answer. I think he used mine for the drop tuning.
Just thought I'd mention - if anyone goes to see "Prairie Home Companion", Robert Altman's last film, there's a lot of tuners in that, hanging off people's guitars, banjos, etc.
Product placement ?
Personally I'm all in favour of them, although it does mean, as illustrated by the anecdote, that there are a lot of young people now who can't tune without one. Yep, I reckon anything that keeps us in good harmony is an improvement.
My mandolin will stay in tune on the journey to the session, and all night long. Mind you I am talking about £100 worth of instrument, maybe some of ypou are using cheap instruments.
I have played with the likes of JfiddlerH, Matt Molloy, Kevin Burke, Maria Lowry, Liam Og O'Flynn, Mickey Maguire, Micky Savage, Pat McConville, Paddy Keenan, all of whom have good ears, but not as accurate as the tuner. Savage once tuned a piano he bought for £40 three years ago by ear, and he was mighty close, but still not in concert.
I did say that I have no problem with people tuning to an accordian, as long as they are all in tune with each other. But when you know you are attending a "concert pitch" session, well it makes sense to all turn up in tune.
I have little objection to tuning by ear, I objected to people sneering at tuners and those who use them. The fact that benhall and Mr Llig are the main objectors, and biggest posing "performers" says a lot.
And benhall. John Williams, classical guitarist, uses a tuner. I suppose he was too lazy to learn how to play properly?
Twenty years ago nobody knew about eloctronic tuners, and they didn't have to and there was no need for one. To learn to tune your instrument by ear was the first thing you had to learn. Sometimes you even have to tune while playing with if necessary. There are also occasions when you have to drop the low E to D with the guitar in the middle of the score. You can't stop and say, "hey waitta minute". At least if that is not written in the score
Twenty years ago even more amateur musicians were playing out of tune than today. And really, a lot of people are missing the point. Of course you should be able to tune by ear. But why sneer at something that can help you tune without having to drag your instrument into a dirty bathroom?
And really, do you think that if somebody is playing out of tune with the rest of the session doesn't even recognize it, you're going to be able to teach them to tune by ear? There has to be some basic pitch recognition, or you may as well teach pigs to sing.
Being the old codger that I am, I remember sessions from 20 years ago. Being a concertina player, I'm often most useful as a tuner. In the old days I would have to remind people of the tuning pitch quite often, and as new players tuned up the pitch would morph until I asked everyone to stop and tune to the same pitch again please. But the session seemed to be constantly filling with hot air and drifting skyward.
On the occasions when I arrived late it was nearly impossible to get everyone on an agreeable pitch. Since the introduction and wide use of tuners this problem has just about disappeared. Sure the session still seems to fill with hot air, but the tuners act like release valves and each corner of the session has one.
So what effect has this had on the big picture? Well... they still aren't perfect, but sessions are generally in better tune these days. Also, if I'm a latecomer to a session I don't have to ask everyone to please retune. In the old days there was many a session I simply couldn't join because the pitch had strayed so far before I got there. Of course there might have been people who at the time thought that was an improvement, but this isn't about me -- it's about the tuning problem.
Not in these parts TaoCat, they would have been told to tune up. But I can understand the current tendency to tolerate out of tune instruments because that seems to increase parallel to the increasing amount of electronic tuners.
A very low-level query, I'm afraid (I'm not even in the debate about tuners- I use and really NEED to use one, approximate or not!)
The Qu. is: I have a QuickTune model which sometimes seems reluctant to react when I pluck the fiddle's E string. Is this a common phenomenon, or do I just have a duff tuner?
Who woulda thunk the use of tuners would generate such, um, over-warm discussion? If y'uns are telling me that some of the new tuners aren't accurate enough, then I'll accept that. When the first ones came out, I tested a few and found them to be pretty close to useless, except maybe for getting a rank beginner in the ballpark and ready for fine tuning. I've tested a few (half a dozen or so) new ones and they were very accurate, but I'll have to admit that they probably represented only two manufacturers.
I played for well over forty years with nothing more than a tuning fork or another instrument for reference and often rolled my eyes at people using tuners, but now that I've used one for a while, I think it's a great tool. Great for discreet tuning onstage or in a noisy situation. Also great for setting intonation on a fretted instrument - better than just about anybody's ear.
Of course, if you have to tune to a fixed-pitch instrument, a tuner won't help you unless you take the time to calibrate it to the fixed instrument.
I think a lot of the problem with string players (especially fretted instruments) being out of tune, even when they use a tuner, is probably that they haven't learned how to set the string so it's fairly stable. If you tune a guitar string in one big cranking motion and just stop when the tuner hits dead center, it won't stay in tune - even if you don't play it. You need to tweak it until the forces acting on it are better equalized. Greg the Piano Tuner could give us some wisdom on that subject. Paging Greg...
There's some additional technique to using a tuner on strings that can improve the results. When the tuner says you are at dead center, you can still nudge the string up or down a tiny amount without losing the dead center reading. If you play around with it a bit, you can locate something closer to the real dead center. And this tweaking will also help settle the string into equilibrium.
Regarding the Emajor guitar chord: if the strings are individually tuned perfectly accurately and if you have a decent ear, Emaj will always sound out of tune. If you make the Emaj sound decent, the Cmaj will sound awful. It's mainly the effect of equal-tempered frets plus the slight sharping effect of noting on the first fret.
And, in summary -
The ability to tune your instrument by ear is essential to being a real player.
Tuners are a very useful tool when you're in a noisy situation or need to tune discreetly.
Highly accurate tuners are available, but you have to learn how to use them properly.
Tuners are *not* abdominal, or whatever benhall.1 called them.
And, dafydd, give that Korg back to your friend and tell 'em you want an Intelli-touch.
In the sessions I attend, there are people who don't use tuners and are perfectly in tune, people who don't and are consistantly out of tune, people who do use tuners to get an A=440, and then more people who use tuners and, amazingly, seem to be further out of tune than before, and then happily continue playing.
I've been playing since I was 7, I'm now 17. I started classical violin, I was told to give my violin to the teacher to tune. Soon I started ITM, had a great teacher, who taught me things about the fiddle as well as how to play it and tunes. It took not much time to be able to tune my fiddle consistantly be ear. At age 11 or 12, I was the only one in the classical class who had any idea whether my violin was in tune or not..
is perfect pitch something that is developed or just there?
I think people should use tuners if they want to, and not apologise for doing so. As long as they are actually in tune once they've finished, which I don't see all that much here.
I notice that very few people now are putting in the effort on tunable instruments to learn how to tune by ear.. after all, you won't always have the tuner, what if the battery runs out or if you lose it?
To whoever it was who doesn't like people tuning up on stage- what else would you suggest they do as the heat from the lights send their instruments out...?
I'd much rather hear them tuning between sets and have the sets in tune than hear them be further and further out of tune with the rest of the band.
Mr Bliss inferred that higher value instruments keep their tuning better. I have two violins, one "good" one and one old crate. The old crate never goes out of tune (ok so pegs and fine tuners are rusted into place, but apart from that..) whereas the good violin goes out of tune as much as you would expect. In conclusion, by an old crate of an instrument that has stuck itself in tune over the centuries and this whole debate will be over.
Ptarmi, I'm surprised at you! I thought you were my 'friend'.
I'm hoping that you were joking, as I was. ... or was that the only part of my post that you disagreed with? Perhaps you too think that all flute players are wusses?
Meanwhile, it's obvious that electronic tuners were sent here from hell deliberately to foment discord where previously there was harmony; to bring error where there was truth; to bring doubt where there was faith, and despair where there was hope.
You know me Ben, I just can't resist throwing my twopence worth into a good old knees-up of a wind-up. Nice one Bliss!
As for Flute players always being out of tune with each other & everybody else Ben [ as well as being wusses ] I think the least said - the easiest mended!
Although, let's face it, If only Flute players could use an Intelli-touch it would surely mean ............................. no, I've said enough..
"Twenty years ago there were more amateur musicians out of tune" Not true.I started attending folk clubs in the late 60's and the amateur floor singers were always in tune because there were no tuners and you had to learn to tune by ear,that was par for the course.You wouldn't even dare to play in public back then if you couldn't even tune up,they would have laughed you out of the place.
It all boils down to whether you want to be totally reliant on a black box.The old guard who learnt their instrument before they were invented can probably take them or leave them but I think it would be a mistake to rely on them completely. I'll come clean and admit that it's not the tuners that annoy me,it's the people at sessions who can't tune up without them and can't use them properly passing their gizmo to me and telling me I'm not in tune when I know that I am in tune. I usually take it and speak into it say "Beam me up Scotty" and then tell them that I was tuning up guitars,fiddles and mandolins before they were born.
"Always in tune"? It might be interesting to dig up old recordings and videotape of past sessions and performances. But although I was playing blues at the time, I still recall a lot of people not being able to tune very well. Phantom Button's experience tends to corroborate mine.
Could be people are just remembering the "good old days" through a bit of rose-colored glasses. Laughed out of the place? Like Bob Dylan got for his off-key caterwauling?
Bottom line, get tuned however it takes, stay in tune. Use your ears, ask your friends. Try not to have delusions of grandeur.
I do not suffer from nostalgia.I saw some terrible acts back then but even if they couldn't sing they were usually in tune.If they couldn't tune themselves they got someone else to do it for them.I used to tune Max Boyce's guitar for him when he was just starting out.I started out on guitar when I was eleven and for the first two years I spent as much time learning to tune it as I did playing it,that's why I don't need an electronic tuner.
Thirty years ago I played in Folk Clubs all over England, sometimes solo, sometimes in a group. I could tune the mandolin to itself, but wouldn't have been in tune with anyone else. Never laughed out of anywhere, Dafdd.
And I suppose there must be a contradiction to every rule What?, but our banjo player spends most of the night re-tuning. He is the one who does not use a tuner. Our guitar player, who has been playing for over 40 years, uses a tuner, and has an excellent ear. Obviously if he breaks a string he just tunes up, doesn't bring the tuner out to the pub, because his guitar stays in tune, after he has tuned up at home, which is where the thread began.
This entire thread illustrates that many people just like being dogmatic on this site. I never suggested that tuners were better than ear, or vice versa. I just said we should not sneer at, or apologise for, using a tuner. But some people were adamant, tuners are useless, ears are useless, etc. Perhaps you should read some of the posts with a bit more care.
And Tao Cat was exactly right a load of posts back, when she made that very point.
And Mr Llig is obviously still somewhat in awe of my prowess.
As for Bob Dylan,you've no idea what it was like in 1963 when the charts were full of moon and tune garbage and then someone plays you The Freewheeling Bob Dylan album, songs about nuclear holocaust (a very real possibilty back then),race relations etc.Up until then I'd been trying to play Beatles songs but that album opened up a new world for me.I can't stand his voice nowadays but as Ian Anderson said recently back then his voice was one of the most exciting sounds on earth.Hard to believe,I know,but you have to put these things into their historical context.Andy Irvine discovered Woody Guthrie via Bob Dylan and look where that led him to,and he wasn't the only one.Christy Moore springs to mind..Don't knock the old groaner,we owe him a lot.
Eh, Sclery, I think I referred to people who go on stage and immediately tune up. If it's an open mic stage you won't make yourself very popular not having tuned up for your first/tune song.
Tuning between songs/tunes is fine as long as you don't go to the extreme of Dick Gaughan who spends close to fifty percent of his stage time tuning (or did last time I saw him). Of course, he was tuning by ear. Well actually he wasn't. If he'd been using his ears there is no way it could have taken that long.
I suspect most people using tuners were playing for years before the advent of electronic tuners and can tune by ear as well as anyone. But they are courteous enough to know that being able to tune quietly, quickly and accurately in the midst of a noisy session is a boon to all.
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but has anyone else experienced the tuning hijackers? What I mean by that is people who seem to wait until everyone is trying to tune up so they can start their tune and disrupt the tuning process. These people also acquire a sudden bout of deafness and appear to not hear you if you remind them that you’re trying to get in tune and to please hold on for a minute.
"What is the difference between a rock band and a blue grass band? The rock band plays all night and never tunes. The blue grass band tunes all night and never plays!"
OK - So how do we define a Trad Band?
The best answer wins a ...................... tuner!
Oh my wholly F***CK - I cant play my instrument. This the worst news Ive had all week - apart from my redback spider infestation in the garden(same species as black widows) MY god - why the hell didnt someone tell me that if I needed a tuner then I couldnt play. Ive been wasting all this time tossing around and playing at sessions and stuff and now this! I am mortified and totally embarrassed - I'm going to go and die now - thanks. Thanks alot for only pointing this out to me 12 years after I started.....
"Oh mister redback.....mr Redback...,.where are you? I need a quick bite please'
People who have a fixation on electronic tuners would do well to take up the 13-course lute. That would keep them happy for years. They'd never get to play it of course, they'd be too occupied tuning it.
"If, having ACTUALLY TRIED, people are *still* incapable of "learning to tune", either with or without a tuner, then by all means go ahead and have them in your session. But don't expect me to be happy with them in mine."
Oh my oh my - this just gets worse and worse.....sorry for all the offence that I must have cause anyone. This is a terrible terrible day for the Tuning Challenged. I may just have to set up a support group...if you anyone wants to join just contact me through the site. I think I'll call it ...............
"I'd rather play tunes with someone who has slight tuning issues but who can still play with a bit of crankiness than play tunes with someone who can tune to perfect pitch and are still total tune hacks...of which there are many"
Sitting by the computer awaiting your membership - kind regards -Complete Tuning hack - bb
Take solace bb, as I said earlier, John Williams can't play the guitar.
Yon bad learner is spot on.
And Dafydd, never apologise for Dylan. The man is as much a genius, as a songwriter, as Mozart was in his field. Absolutely awesome. And his last three albums have been good, but God Awful to see him live now, as he tries to be a 65 year old rock star, hidden behind a piano.
Although he does use a tuner.
I prefer everyone to be in tune as well - its just that some people can do it by ear and some people cant. And some peopel cant do it by ear but refuse to used a tuner and then it all turns to cr*p and I blame you lads who are snobby about it. You are the ones who make it seem bad to use tuners and now there are all these out of tune musicians running about trying to tune by ear and failing. Thanks a lot!
PS - PB - I am terrfied of these spiders - I know that they are not aggressive - but they are frigging everywhere - everywhere you look. Its creepy - plus they give you a mean bite and you have to have antivenom most times and its meant to be exruciating. Funny thing is - Ive lived in sydney my whole life and never ever seen anything like this before -Ive only ever seen redbacks in the bush and in Canberra. Just killed the 7th one today Dont let that put you off of a visit down under - because if I can manage to live here then anyone can manage a visit - I hate spiders more than anything ever.
"Twenty years ago nobody knew about eloctronic tuners, and they didn't have to and there was no need for one. To learn to tune your instrument by ear was the first thing you had to learn. Sometimes you even have to tune while playing with if necessary. There are also occasions when you have to drop the low E to D with the guitar in the middle of the score. You can't stop and say, "hey waitta minute". At least if that is not written in the score "
Which is why 20 years ago - there were so many bloody out of tune sessions! All over the the place.
And "score"????"score"???? What kind of sessions do you play in, may I join? Can I bring my own "score"?
For goodness sakes - I get better and more interesting trad conversation from my redback spiders.......
And "score"????"score"???? What kind of sessions do you play in, may I join? Can I bring my own "score"? For goodness sakes - I get better and more interesting trad conversation from my redback spiders.......
Yes, sorry, my mistake. Twenty years back I wasn't interested in TM and was thinking of my guitar playing days. If it was the word "score" you didn't understand then don't worry, I'm not an english native speaker either and have these problems quite so often.
"I'd rather play tunes with someone who has slight tuning issues but who can still play with a bit of crankiness than play tunes with someone who can tune to perfect pitch and are still total tune hacks...of which there are many"
"I prefer everyone to be in tune as well - its just that some people can do it by ear and some people cant. And some peopel cant do it by ear but refuse to used a tuner and then it all turns to cr*p and I blame you lads who are snobby about it. You are the ones who make it seem bad to use tuners and now there are all these out of tune musicians running about trying to tune by ear and failing. Thanks a lot!"
So, which is the real bb? Would you prefer to play with out of tune people or would you prefer people to be in tune?
Apart from the obvious confusion in the above posts, I've got more issues with that lot. I never said it was remotely a good idea to tune to perfect pitch, whatever particular pitch you may mean by that. In fact, that's a large part of my point, because boxes are seldom at A440 - assuming that's what you mean by "perfect pitch". So why use a tuner when you know before you start that it's bound to be wrong, when compared with a fixed pitch instrument? It's like using a map of Scotland to navigate around Italy.
And please, DON'T pull the seniority card - "Thanks alot for only pointing this out to me 12 years after I started....." What the hell's THAT got to do with it?
I could do without the sarcasm - and I could do without the people who can't be bothered to tune properly WITH OR WIHTHOUT A TUNER, as I quite carefully said in my earlier post.
Are tuners *always* bad, under all circumstances? Do they really make you play out of tune? Sound like a few of us here use them from time to time (although mine has been in my wife's autoharp case for the last few months until I dragged it out to check the accuracy earlier.) Some depend on them, and after hearing bb's YouTube tunes, I can't say that depending on one makes somebody a bad player, as she sound quite nice.
Really, when you start getting dogmatic and dealing with absolutes, there's a good chance you're dealing with your own problems and not reality.
Warming up nicely. Loads of strings, tune to concert, in the house, saves time and all that posing.
Got an accordian or the like, tune to that, as long as everybody is the same. And after what I have posted on the other thread, I know Mr Llig disagrees, he says tune to whatever you like. He is that much of a posing performer that "pitch" means nothing to him. "I laugh at pitch" you can just hear him saying with a daring, cavalier attitude. My hero.
btw, I hope there's nothing dogmatic about saying that the only people I've experienced in sessions who use tuners have ended up more out of tune than before they got them.
Seniority card? Are you kidding me? Most people I know in Ireland have been playing since they were knee high to a grasshopper - 12 years is nothing on them.
In a perfect world everyone would be able to tune - i just meant that I'd rather play with someone who had a little tuning issue than someone else who can tune properly who doesnt crank it up.
Things have away of coming across much more horrid on tihs board than if you said them face to face in real life.
"If, having ACTUALLY TRIED, people are *still* incapable of "learning to tune", either with or without a tuner, then by all means go ahead and have them in your session. But don't expect me to be happy with them in mine."
That comment is just plain rude. Maybe I was being sarcastic - but I wasnt excluding an entire bunch of people from my session in one fell swoop.
See - my last point on that last post sounded much more mean than I meant it to. Sorry to cause offense benhall. Didnt mean to really - just trying to join in the discussion as a person who uses a tuner. Believe me - its better that I do rather than not - my ear is useless -as you can prob gather from the Youtube vid. Quite obvious really.
I would imagine tuning pipes, hammered dulcimer etc would take longer to tune, but generally speaking, musicians who play Guitar, Mandolin, Flute, Whistle, Fiddle, etc should be able to tune their instruments in about 30 secs - 1 minute.
They should already be familiar with the particular tuning
idio-syncracies of their own instrument.
Never met someone using a tuner who hasn't taken less than 4-5 minutes. Upshot is that it can save time (especially on stage) to tune by ear and it's something less for me to carry around.
It's probably worth reiterating the point I made umpteen posts ago that too much reliance on electronic tuners trains the eye and not the ear. And is not the ear more important to a musician than the eye?
That is not to say that there can be circumstances when a electronic tuner is useful (other than as a substitute for a tuning fork) because we're talking mainly about noisy and slightly chaotic sessions as opposed to the relative calm of an orchestral rehearsal or private practice in the quiet of one's home.
Donald, i apologise, i didn't realise you meant that.
Yes, Dick Vaughan... that was, well, quite annoying!
i've never seen anybody who has gotten their instrument in tune with a tuner apologise for tuning with a tuner.
I have seen those who fail, apologise, although I don't think they need to.
Would people be offended if you offered to tune it for them?
I offered once, and was told several things not too polite and that his 40+ years on me meant more, or something.
In sessions with people like Sean McJerry, I have often heard them say pull it out abit, aimed at flutes.. nobody seemed offended.
On fretted instruments, a tuner gets you close. You then need to adjust the tuning to your instrument. They are all different because of variations in set-up. Very few instruments are perfectly set up, and there is loads of dissagrement amoungst luthiers as to the "correct" set up. So a tuner will never get your instrument perfectly in tune because no two instruments are set up exactly the same.
20 years ago, I remember far more tuning problems than now, so either the players are getting better, or they have some help in the way of tuners.
Tuners can help, but you still need your ears to make final adjustments.
And BB, I can't believe you are worried about Red Backs, when you live in a place infested with Funnel Webs. Now there's a spider. Fangs the size of a red bellied black snake and the temperement of a crocodile with a tooth ache.
thedon - But I havent seen a peep of a funnel web in about 10 years - but when I walk out the door now - all I can see is black and red....ugh I hate all spiders anyways - I would make a terrible buddist - its a pity cause I really like buddist stuff - I just cant help wanting to kill all the spiders in the world!
I cant PB was bitten by a black widow - that is really scary!
I knew a bass player once whose hand was bitten by a black widow while he was sleeping---they only found out because a week later he ended up having a fever and a blue line all the way up his arm and they almost had to amputate it.
About the only thing you can do is check every day for bites and watch them carefully. And a good exterminator helps!
I was relaxing on my front porch stretching my legs out under a table and felt a strong prick on my ankle. I looked with my flashlight but couldn't see anything there. Within a short time I felt sick and was lying on my bed hallucinating. There was a weird sense of calm and I didn't even seem concerned about dying. The next evening I patrolled the spot under the table and finally saw the biggest black widow I’ve ever laid eyes on next to a knothole in the wall. I nearly passed out at the sight of it.
i once had a well known fiddling hero of mine who stayed at my place while on tour in OZ. It turns out that he was arachnophobic. We pulled up at my place and parked in the garage. When he got out of the car and stood up, right in front of his face was enormous spider web with several hundred baby spiders hanging an inch from his nose. He let out an almighty scream and bolted into the street. It took a while to convince him to come inside and have a few tunes.
I didn't realize I was bitten by a black widow; I think I expected it would be more painful. I didn't call 911, didn't get any antivenom... I just laid on my back and hallucinated. It occured to me at one point that a black widow might have bitten me, but as I said... I didn't care if I died. I remember thinking to myself how I've had a happy life and it's a nice day to die. Mind you I've more than doubled the amount of years I have lived since then.
M y husband is from a place where nothing is venomous - No matter how much I tell him - I cant seem to convince him that redbacks are poisonous....And when we lived in his country every time I'd see a spider I'd run, scream and almost faint - no matter how hard he tried to convince me I just couldnt believe that they could be harmless.......strange.
Phantom....the laying back and just hallucinating probably saved your life.
In Oz in the last fortnight a teenage boy died after being bitten by an eastern brown snake while walking a suburban bush reserve. He and his mates walked 15 minutes to get help, and he had his first cardiac arrest as they reached a football field with an ambulance on duty who revived him. Less than 24 hours later he died following multiple cardiac arrests and organ damage from the poison. The experts all said ..if he'd just laid down and let his mate get help - even though it would have taken longer to get treatment....he would have survived. Sad, I think he was only about 14.
Firstly, bb, sorry, I didn't mean to be rude either. As I've said before, I've heard your clp on YouTube, and it's fab. If we met, I'd hope that you wouldn't mind my playing too much either. And that's what counts at the end of the day.
bb and Tatocat - I was trying to say, and that's why I put it in capitals, that what I really don't like, is when people, whether using a tuner or not, don't *try* to tune properly. I didn't actually say anything against people who try and fail. But it does seem to be true that there are a lot of people who don't try, and I can't apologise for finding that unacceptable.
Did *that* come out better than when I posted before?
Jack a écrit:
"Exuse me folks... I'll be away for a bit tuning my flute with my common sense. Carry on... talk amonst yourselves." [sic]
No, no, no! Come back here! The exercise of common sense in the matter ot tuning must be done in the company of all those playing together in the session. If you come with a fix-pitched instrument such as a harmonica (not actually as fixed as some would have it - see below) or your concertina, and you're in danger of showing up after everyone else has tuned up and started playing, then it behoves you to engender in your fellow sessioneers a culture of tuning to A=440. This works best if at least somebody has a tuner, human ears and brains being what they are. Anyone who wants to play in sessions yet brings along a fixed-pitch instrument that strays significantly from A=440 is a pain in the neck. And, fiddlers, never ask a harmonica player for an A. He may play you the note and bend it. His harp may be tuned to A=443 or similar (we all do it, for reasons beyond the scope of this thread). And the harp may not be in equal temperament. I've seen this kind of thing lead to tears. Finally, if y'all want to stand some vestige of a chance of staying tolerably in tune all evening, under no circumstances allow a 12-string guitar player to your session. And the tuning's just one of the reasons.
The person I know who spends most time at the beginning of the session painstakingly tuning his flute to a tuner, goes on to actually play the most out of tune of any player I've ever heard.
Flutes (and whistles occasionally) do seem to be common culprits, as well as the aforementioned 12-strings, which are usually OK to start with, but once they drift and their owners start to meddle to get 'em back again... Not to mention those fiddlers who take 45 minutes to get their intonation right. Only some fiddlers, mind. Still, it's all good fun. Until somebody cracks and complains. Maybe tuning a flute is like tuning a harmonica. You just don't blow the same when you're tuning, hunched over a tuner, as when you're playing. Just a guess in the case of the flute.
Well, it's a good thing you don't care, 'cause those devilish little tuner thingies are made for the sole purpose of rendering you out-of-tune and destroying your ability to perceive pitch. If you use a tuner, the terrorists win!
Tuners are glorious things. If only we could teach the terrorists how to use one. (Actually, thumb to kink about it, there probably IS a terrorist use for them ... hmm ...).
I'd go so far as to say that the only reason I have the right to call myself a musician at all is my ability to use a tuner.
And the best part of a session for me? That half hour at the start when we all try and tune using different pitches on our different makes of tuner and then talk about how good ours is, and how we got it for Christmas and how it's revolutionised our playing!
In the early days of dealing with my flute tuning I tried having a tuner handy to establish my pitch with. But it seemed like I could produce a tone that would center the needle, but I couldn't stay on pitch when it came to playing. After playing out of tune I would refer back to the tuner and without adjusting the tuning slide bring the needle back to center with little effort. What I eventually realized is that there are too many variables and you simply have to rely on your ears and adjust your tuning in the course of playing. The tuner is now collecting dust here on the table behind my monitor.
Yeah - Dow came over and insisted on seeing a redback cause he'd never seen one before - we prob saw about 20-30 little ones, but at the very end we found a big mama. Dow who is terrified of spiders was awe struck by just how beautiful she was - with her big red stripe. I'm afraid I'm just not nice cause I couldnt find anything particulary beautiful in that horrid spider. Sigh -
This thread has been good food for though - I'm never going to america again if you just get bit willie nillie by black widows
No seriously - I'm going to see if I can do without my tuner for tuning. But if the session snubs me - then I'm going to tell them that thesession.org made me do it!!!!!
Hey bb.....my mum got bitten on the toe by a redback....and felt the sting and saw it was a redback so was worried and went to the hospital, was given a small injection...and that was it. Apart from the initial ouch...no pain. No swelling. No being sick. Said she'd had mozzie bites that were worse! But it may have just been a little redback!
Ive a friend who was bitten when she was a teenager - she couldnt get to hospital for 5 hours because she was bushwalking - by the time she crawled back she was put in intensive care. I beleive it depends on the size, how quick you can get to medical care and Ive read that some people react worse than others. I'm not willing to take the chance though - weve found a few real whoppers in the garden.
I'm avoiding cleaning the garage for the same reasons. Moved a box the other day and three redbacks scurried away.....they weren't fast enough though....I had the Baygon out quick smart. Though last time I reached for the Baygon I didn't check the can and hairsprayed a cockroach to the floor! Actually think the hairspray kills more quickly!
Could someone PLEASE answer the question about box intonation (ideally someone who knows, but quite frankly by this point I'd take a load of rubbish)?? I actually really want to know now.
"Though last time I reached for the Baygon I didn't check the can and hairsprayed a cockroach to the floor! Actually think the hairspray kills more quickly!"
-------------------------------------------------
Yes, especially when you ignite it.
A few months ago I was going outside late at night for a smoke. When I pushed the latch on the screen door I heard a buzzing sound, and assumed it was a wasp.
I turned on the lamp and exclaimed something that I can't repeat here when I saw that it was a very larger female black widow. She had spun her web between the door frame and the latch on the screen door. Apparently, the buzzing sound was her legs hitting the screen while she tried to find whatever had distrubed her web.
My hand had been right next to her but she must have gone for the latch instead of my hand. I had a nervous hour checking over my hand and waiting for something to happen.
Not quite on-topic, but I've noticed in orchestral concerts an increasing tendancy to tune up during the applause of the previous item. This sounds really weird to me - it makes sense in that the orchestra's ready for the next piece, but it leaves me with the impression that the orchestral players (who we're applauding) aren't interested in our reaction.
I've never noticed people tuning during applause in band gigs although on one level it makes perfect sense.
We don't tune during the applause at my orchestral concerts. For one thing, we're usually standing up to acknowledge the applause. If the conductor thinks a re-tune is necessary it is done openly before the next item. It doesn't take long. Shows we care.
I'm trying to think of an orchestral instrument where the player cannot compensate for the instrument being a bit off (except maybe the harp). Clever that, they don't play mandolins. The tuning up between tunes is to simply make it easier to play in tuine. Such subtleties of tuning is surely lost on those who tune up in the house before they come out.
Instruments can and do drift out of tune while playing a piece in a concert, especially in the first half of the programme when the temperature and humidity in the hall is changing and if the concert starts with a particularly loud piece. It's usually the brass and woodwind which tend to go sharp, and it's obviously not possible for them to retune in the middle of the piece, although professionals can often compensate on the hoof. It's part of the conductor's job to notice these things, and if the intonation is starting to go wrong for the aforesaid temperature/humidity reasons, or if he thinks it's going to become noticeable to the audience he'll call for a quick retune between pieces or movements of a piece.
A solo violinist or cellist playing a concerto may sometimes have a quick retune between movements of the piece. The power they have to put into their playing will send even the best strings (which would otherwise be fairly stable in a session) go out of tune. I've seen a soloist quickly (and very quietly) retune a string from the peg during a couple of empty bars in his solo part.
A trick that can be used in an emergency to quickly sharpen a string that has gone slightly flat is to press down with a finger on that part of the string in the peg box between the peg and the nut. You've got to know what you're doing, but it works. A similar trick is used If a string goes sharp (it's usually one or both of the two lower strings); its pitch can be flattened by quickly pulling sideways and strongly on the string about halfway along the fingerboard so as to stretch it. Again, if you know what you're doing, it works.
We're talking here about real life on the concert platform in front of a paying audience, not the artificial hothouse environment of the recording studio!
tuners and posers
tuners and posers
I keep noticing people apologising for using electronic tuners. WHY?
Is it a posers thing, "Oh I tune by ear". Some people were saying they used a tuner to give them confidence. You use a tuner because it will be right. I don't care how good an ear you have, you are not as good as a tuner.
So before we go out I tune the mandolin with a tuner, and the guitarist does the same. The "musicians/posers" then tune off us. Why not just tune up at home? With a tuner. Saves time, or does tuning up "look good".
I have no objection to everyone tuning to an accordian or whatever, but there should be no need to apologise for using a tuner.
Is tuning by ear just a "performance?"
And don't post it should be poseur. I am not French.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
I totally agree with you!!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by rob_handel
Re: tuners and posers
I'm with you, Blissmeister.
A plug in (or clip on) tuner means people can set up without disturbing the rest of the session if it's already in full flow.
I know a couple of 'ear' tuners who seem to be a bit deaf. I've often heard them wipe out a quieter instrument which was attempting to start a new set, totally oblivious to everything but their own instrument.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: tuners and posers
"I don't care how good an ear you have, you are not as good as a tuner"
Maybe for some instruments, but not fiddle, at least. Just intonation and all that. I'm a beginner and even I can tell the difference.
Tuning up at home is definitely a good idea, though...unless you happen to be going to a session right after work...I don't think my office mates would appreciate the noise...
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by kennedy
Re: tuners and posers
I find if I tune my fiddle at home the chances are high that it will be out of tune by the time it reaches the session. Playing an instrument (fiddle or a fretted instrument) for a few minutes in a session will send it out of tune - temperature and humidity changes plus the very action of fingering and bowing/plucking the strings are more than sufficient to do it. Flutes and whistles likewise change pitch as they warm up.
I don't use an electronic tuner; I use a tuning fork to give me an A, or I take an A from a box player or another fiddler who has just tuned to a good A, and I'm experienced enough to tune my A-string accurately by ear to such a source. I then tune the other strings in perfect 5ths from the tuned A by ear - an artificial tuning aid isn't necessary.
Although an electronic tuner is useful to give a A440 for the initial tuning, or A415 if you want to tune to Baroque pitch, I've long had my doubts about their accuracy for producing the perfect 5th intervals for the fiddle D, G and E. Their use for tuning all the strings on a fiddle is certainly not conducive to training the ear.
When I started learning the cello when I was 12 one of the very first things I was taught was how to tune it by ear. It wasn't until quite a while later that I discovered that until you can do that you won't be able to play in tune, either within the instrument or with other people.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: tuners and posers
Using an electronic tuner (the type that uses coloured lights or a needle on a scale, rather than emitting a pitched sound) teaches the player to use his eyes and not his ears. Which is more important for playing music?
A fiddle player should be able to retune by ear quietly without disturbing other players, and should be able retune (also by ear) when there's a lot going on in the session.
I can see the convenience of using a clip-on electronic tuner for checking the tuning of fretted instruments, especially the quieter ones, during a session, but it should never be necessary for a fiddle player.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: tuners and posers
Tuning by ear at home is one thing...tuning accurately under session conditions is quite another. I know a lot about aural tuning (see the screen name) but I think it makes sense to use an electronic tuner if you have one.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: tuners and posers
I've got one of those little clip-on ones on my bodhran, I swear by it.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by mcknowall
Re: tuners and posers
Yes, a tunable bodhran is essential for playing with other instruments. There are few things worse than a bodhran resonating in Eflat or C# when everyone else is playing in D! A clip-on tuner for a bodhran could be of invaluable assistance.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: tuners and posers
And I swear I have some china that only rattles on the shelf when I hit a high A spot on!
I try to tune by ear then check on my tuner, blush with mortification, adjust, and then wonder what is about my ear that means I always tune sharp by ear?
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by FiddleFancy
Re: tuners and posers
Um, Sharon, how do you know your electronic tuner is accurate?
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: tuners and posers
Trevor and kennedy, if you start with A440 and then tune your fiddle to perfect, just fifths, doesn't that make your other three open strings just slightly out of tune with equal-tempered instruments?
I'm grateful for electronic tuners. I've noticed over the years that the instruments in sessions and jams are much more likely to be in tune.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Bob himself
Re: tuners and posers
The first mass market electronc tuners were hard to use and not accurate enough, but the new ones are extremely accurate.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Bob himself
Re: tuners and posers
"I don't care how good an ear you have, you are not as good as a tuner."
Hey, I use an electronic tuner, and it's a good one too. But my ear notices a string is in or out of tune before the tuner does. My Sabine is about 5-6 years old, some of the new stuff is even better. Electronic tuners are great for tuning in noisy places where it's hard to hear.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Snakefingers
Re: tuners and posers
So what's wrong with being able to do both, as the opportunity or need provides?
When I am on stage or at a session in a noisy environment, I cannot hear well enough to tune by ear. The electronic device is great. At home, it takes much less time to do it by ear.
I didn't read the above comments, maybe someone already said this.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Eliot
Re: tuners and posers
Well, here's something I don't say everyday...Bodhran Bliss, I agree with you. I use a tuner all the time, and see nothing wrong with it. I have a good ear, but find it easier and quicker to tune by the tuner. People seem to want to brag about being able to tune by ear...get over yourselves already.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by irishfiddler32
Re: tuners and posers
As long as you CAN tune by ear if required, a tuner is handy in a noisy session. It MUST be accurate and in tune with every one else though. So, the difficulty arises if you are tuning to a box or similar which cannot be readily retuned.
However, I can never understand why players don't/won't try to tune their instruments in concert pitch whenever possible. It's much easier to tune "by ear" in concert pitch as you have internalised the actual pitches of the notes..It's second nature and so much easier to get "back in tune" if a string goes out.
Also, if you have a GOOD tuner, there's no harm in using it in such a situation as it WILL be right as long as it is used properly(Quite often, this is the problem..not the tuner itself)
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by John J.
Re: tuners and posers
I'm assuming this is a wind-up.
Tuners are an abomination. Trevor's put it far more gently, but the fact is, all the people I know who use one of those things end up with out of tune instruments. There was even the ludicrous situation a few weeks ago when I noticed two such players were significantly out from each other, and then both checked their instruments using their own tuner ... and the tuners were giving different notes! Not that they could hear that. Oh no. The tuner say it's right, so it must be right.
And piano accordions and other fixed pitch instruments have to be taken into account. There's absolutely no point tuning to a perfect A440 if the pa isn't at A440 ... and their pitch can change, just like other instruments, depending on temperature and humidity.
Tuning at home! Fine, provided you tune thoroughly again when you get to the session, because anything like a fiddle will have changed quite a bit ion the meantime.
What I think is worst about these wretched devices is that the people using them assume it means they're in tune and, as a result, it seems, they don't bother to listen any more. I'm going by the evidence of my ears here. How else can you explain why it's the people with tuners who are always out of tune?
btw, I'm not bragging. If you can't tune by ear, you can't play your instrument. It's not something to brag about - it's just a basic requirement.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
Try tuning a mandolin if you're not the first one at the session. Tuners help if you can barely hear your instrument. Sure, you should be able to tune by ear. But most accordions/concertinas and other free-reed instruments will be fairly close (just tuning and all) to concert pitch. At least with a tuner you're in the ballpark. Then adjust as needed.
Worse than a person tuning to a tuner and assuming they're in pitch is the person tuning by ear and assuming they're in pitch. Flutes, pennywhistles and fiddles often seem to be certain that they are in tune despite all evidence to the contrary.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
I tune my fiddle with an A tuning fork and then by ear.That's not boasting nor is it a performance,I just come from a time when the first step in mastering an instrument was to learn to tune it.A few years ago I played a gig and the support was a young singer.Just before it started the promoter came backstage and asked me for assistance.The young lady was in tears in the wings,she'd forgotten her tuner and couldn't tune her guitar.Rather sad really.Electronic tuners are good for a surreptitious check onstage.What happens if you slip out of tune during a set? The ear tuners can retune on the fly.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by dafydd
Re: tuners and posers
By "just tuning and all" did you mean "just temperament"? 'Cos if you did, they're not. I think they use equal temperament, as opposed to either just temperament or well temperament. But none of that matters if the A isn't where people have set their tuners. And unless every-single-person-who's-ever-used-a-tuner-in-any-session-I've-ever-been-to can't use a tuner ... then, tuners are never set where the accordion player has his/her A.
I used to play mandolin, btw. People used to say I was quite good at it (they were being nice, I think), but it killed my fingers for fiddle, so I stopped.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
Benhall has a point too.Despite what Bobhimself says,these tuners often are not calibrated with each other.The people at our session get around this by passing around one tuner.And then of course a box player strolls in and we all have to retune.Anyone can learn to tune by ear all it takes is practice.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by dafydd
Re: tuners and posers
I think you should deffinantly put in the effort to learn to tune by ear. It is not always possible to use a tuner and besides being able to tune by ear and tune to other instruments makes you more flexiable when playing. But there is no reason why you couldn't also use a tuner, eaither to start you off or check your own tuning afterwards. Especially with something like a fiddle, if you a beginner ( like me) it makes playing much more difficult if you strings are out as your still learning where to put your fingers acurately. And tuning by ear can be difficult. I have been playing guitar for 16 years and i still have trouble if my low E is out, tuning the rest. I have to say i was pleasantly surpirsed when i started on the fiddle that the strings are so much shorted then the guitar and they tune up so quickly. With a guitar your turning the pegs for hours just getting the strings tight.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by velvet
Re: tuners and posers
I think the box players will have to speak for themselves regarding just temperament tuning . But while I firmly advocate learning to tune by ear, using a tuner is no bad thing. A modern tuner can be extremely accurate. Most of them can also use something other than A=440, so that should be checked.
If you can't hear when you're out of tune with the session, that's a problem that ear tuning isn't going to fix. If you can hear it, then the tuner isn't going to hinder.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
That is to say a modern tuner can be calibrated up and down on the 440=A, sometimes a dime or more.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
I reckon I can tune pretty well by ear but I don't have perfect pitch so a tuner helps me to find concert. Sometimes I'll just tune one string (on the guitar that would be the D string) with the tuner and then tune the other strings to the tuned string. Sometimes I'll tune all the strings with the tuner if it's noisy and I can't hear the harmonic series of the notes. But I would always check by ear and make minor adjustments.
If your instrument is perfectly set up then tuning with a tuner should put the instrument perfectly in tune. Trouble is 99.9% of instruments are not set up perfectly so you have to make adjustments by ear. On one of my guitars I usually leave the bottom string ten cents flat, for example, because the scale length is too short (saddle not angled enough).
For mandolin/mandola I tune one of each pair with the tuner and then, if it's too noisy, nip off to the bog to tune the others by ear.
In my experience tuners are very accurate. I've been using my TU-12 for twenty years and it has never let me down (apart from when a big bloke sat on it when it was under my coat). I find it is usually the person using the tuner who is not very accurate.
In conclusion, tuners are great. BUT you should also be able to tune by ear in perfect situations (i.e., total silence).
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by DonaldK
Re: tuners and posers
Something no one seems to have picked up on is that the fiddle has no frets, so one is, in effect, tuning all the time whilst playing by making micro adjustments of the fingers on the finger board! I don't think a tuner could keep up...
I'm not against electronic tuners as such, but I suggest that, for fiddle at least, they give a good starting point and nothing more.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Rhod
Re: tuners and posers
I dunno. How about a constant tuner that delivers an unpleasant (just short of lethal) shock when a player is so many degrees out of tune?
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
Rhod, I would say that "they give a good starting point and nothing more" applies to most instruments. Fiddlers can often in my experience be a bit superior when it comes to tuning because their instruments are relatively easy to put in tune.
When I tried to tell a fiddler friend of mine to retune her slipped A string before retuning the other strings she bit my head off and told me not to tell her how to tune her instrument. So I let her go ahead and detune the E string to concert then tune the A string up to concert and then retune te now out of tune E string back up to concert.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by DonaldK
Re: tuners and posers
The box players of course are able to speak for themselves, but they definitely don't have "just temperament" - can't possibly, or they'd be horribly out of tune in all but one key.
However well a guitar is set up, it should not be tuned on an equal temperament basis. Guitars have their own, unique difficulties with regards to tuning, especially in relation to the G and B strings. I don't fully understand the theory on that one, but I know from listening that you have to tune the G and B strings some way off what they would be in equealt temperament. As an experiment, try tuning a guitar "perfectly" and then play a few different chords. I'd be surprised if you don't find it absolutely necessary to re-tune.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
Agreed. I used to play classical guitar. BUT...a tuner is a good start. It gets them in the ballpark. You say that a tuner might not get them right...fine, it might not. But if they can't recognize that they're out of tune with the rest of the session after tuning with the tuner, then they might well be incapable of learning to tune by ear anyway.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
"there should be no need to apologise for using a tuner." I'll second that Bliss!
No apology from me! Well, I'd would be foolish to claim that I didn't use a tuner here, cause you've seen me use mine Bliss!
But I make no apologies cause I find them great for sorting out my Mandolin & also my Fiddle.
To be honest, after a week teaching music to young school pupils, whose intonation is never the best, by Friday night my ears are usually shot & they need all the help I can give them.
Each week though I find myself playing at some stage with Northumbrian Pipes - in F-ish, Scottish Smallpipes in A-ish & Uilleann Pipes in C#-ish or B-ish, so in those situations my tuner aint much help to me, but for concert pitch sessions I wouldn't be without mine ...................... especially when it comes to tuning the 52 strings on my trusty Hammered Dulcimer!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: tuners and posers
Just to qualify, in light of benhall.1's attack on their use, I must confess that I didn't use one for the first twenty odd years of my playing so there might be something to his notion that you should learn to tune by ear first & once you have mastered that art, then you can make good use of a tuner in certain situations, when the need arrises.
To say:
NO - you should never use one
or
YES - you should always use one, is just being a silly billy! ( Ah Ted, how we miss you!)
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: tuners and posers
If you read nothing else in this thread, do read Lazyhound's couple of posts near the top - they make total sense.
Tune up at home first? I do that, but there will always be the need to check and maybe retune on arrival at the session - temperature and humidity are bound to vary. I'm lucky that my fiddle seems fairly immune to such changes but I always recheck.
Tuners? I tend to use them (or a tuning fork) to get my A , and tune the rest by ear - I agree with views above that this is an essential part of being able to play the instrument - indeed it was one of the first things I had to learn. Of course, there is often the need to take the tuning from the box or other fixed pitch instrument.
Tuning up just 'looks good' or is 'a performance'? Ridiculous nonsense!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by domnull
Re: tuners and posers
Benhall speaks sooth.If I use a tuner to tune my guitar (or anyone else's) I always have to make small adjustments to get certain chords in tune,usually the E And G major.I use the harmonics method and I find that it's just as accurate as a tuner.The great Leo Kottke says "I hate tuners,they erase my ears"
Equal temperament isn't everything.Listen to the 12 string guitar intro to the the Stones recording of As Tears Go By.If you checked it with a tuner it would be off,but it sounds right.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by dafydd
Re: tuners and posers
In the spirit of scientific enquiry I just tuned my guitar with a Korg tuner that someone recently gave me.The Emajor chord sounded awful and the harmonics were off and it would have been quicker to just tune with the harmonics.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by dafydd
Re: tuners and posers
Yes, but check your Korg tuner against set pitches and see if it is accurate. Guitar chords need a certain temperament. It is impossible to tune a mandolin when other instruments are already playing unless you have a tuner. It is annoying to tune a banjo if other instruments are already playing. By all means, use your ear, but the tuner is a handy tool. Not end all, be all, but handy.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
Ha ha Bliss, what an eedjit, "I tune up before I go out" ha ha. Can you imagine a musician saying that? Reminds me of that old chestnut about the bloke taking his new guitar back to the shop, 'cause it was in tune when he bought it. ha ha
Ha ha, And why do you think the other "musicians" tune off you? Because you're feckin incapable of tuning off them you daft bat.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: tuners and posers
"But if they can't recognize that they're out of tune with the rest of the session after tuning with the tuner, then they might well be incapable of learning to tune by ear anyway."
)
Sorry, TaoCat, but that sounds to me like a recipe for permanent chaos and an acceptance of laziness and sloppiness on the part of those who can't be bothered to learn to tune properly. The evidence of my ears tells me that the very people who use a tuner are the people who are usually badly out of tune, and the only way they're going to improve is to train their ears properly in the first place. If they continue to rely on tuners, that will never happen.
If, having ACTUALLY TRIED, people are *still* incapable of "learning to tune", either with or without a tuner, then by all means go ahead and have them in your session. But don't expect me to be happy with them in mine.
(Domnull, I second your point about Trevor's earlier posts - he's a much more reasonable man than I. I wish I could be like that ... perhaps I need a device to help me with it ... there ... that's got it switched on ... *?!* b**l?! *s ... there, see? it's working perfectly!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
Love it, Michael!
tee hee hee
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
"I tune up before I go out" I smiled at that too.Why not go the whole hog and buy an insrument that's already in tune?
It's come to a pretty pass when someone who has learned to tune by ear is accused of being a poser and giving a performance.Do I detect a whiff of jealousy here?
I sincerly hope that this is a wind-up.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by dafydd
Re: tuners and posers
"instrument" that should be
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by dafydd
Re: tuners and posers
Whether it is a recipe for laziness is open to debate. I am curious to hear all of these faulty tuners that allow people to play "badly out of tune." My cheap tuner seems to be quite accurate.
And yes, I can tune by ear. It would be great if everybody did that. It's not gonna happen. And I find it annoying that people show up after the music has started and begin tuning, and not quietly either.
You seem to be saying tuners are always bad. I'm saying they're handy: no replacement for listening, but a handy start.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
it goes like this, people who disdain tuners (piano, fork, electronic doesnt matter) and people who disdain the ear both need a good kick up the jacksie. Both are a tool, learn to use them wisely.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Joze
Re: tuners and posers
I fuss much less with my fiddle tuning than with the mandolin - electonic tuner essential for the latter. But a little electronic help has been useful in improving my intonation as an adult learner. People who proudly proclaim that their intonation is impeccable and that they can tune their strings to perfect 5ths, didn't spring from the womb with these skills. They were probably taught as youngsters by a music teacher who forcefully demonstrated the notes and scales and corrected the deficiencies. As I wasn't taught as a child, I've found tuning software very helpful - it can show in wave form the whole spectrum of any tone so you see all the secondary peaks This means you can tune your D and your E to the A peak and get a perfect 5th. Then you can tune the G against the D peak. Is it accurate? Perfectly, if you check it with a pitch fork. Of course you can't take this down the pub, but you can use it to train your ear and your recognition of intervals, which you can't do on a piano because it's equally tempered. Works for me, anyway. I've got an older version of this software: http://www.netcat.li/instrument-tuner/
I've also used it for tuning harmonicas (try doing that by ear!)
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by RichardB
Re: tuners and posers
In orchestras the Oboe tunes to Concert pitch, then all is hushed and the oboe plays the A for the strings to tune to, then the strings are hushed while the woodwind tunes and then finally the brass. They do the same again after the interval. It would seem to me that everything is kept quiet for the tuning so it is easier to hear. In a session we don't have that kind of organisation, you have to tune up in a noisy pub with other instruments blasting out around you which can make it hard to tune properly, hence I use a tuner in sessions. I use my ears though to tell me if my fiddle is out of tune while I'm playing.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bowburner
Re: tuners and posers
TaoCat, I think I *am* saying tuners are always bad. Or, to be more accurate, people who use them always seem to be badly out of tune. If they didn't rely on them as some sort of crutch, I think they'd stand a better chance of being in tune.
RichardB - you seem to be describing something completely different and, used as a tool for training your ear, well, maybe it works for you. Just so long as you *are* trying to train your ear, and not relaying on the musical equivalent of a TomTom (another ludicrous, useless, new-fangled device).
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
Isn’t it the “slightly out of tuneness with each other” that makes the ensemble sound so good? The reason a string section of an orchestra sounds so lush is the microtonal variation of everybody’s ears playing what they hear as “the” note all mixed up and coming out as a root mean square. The same thing happens (often with knobs on) at a session. That and a good dollop of untempered modality.
Be that as it may…when attempting to tune my baritone uke in the midst of the session, I use two bits of technology: pitch pipes and posing in the relative peace of the gentleman’s toilet. ("toot,toot, twang, twang") And does beer improve or deteriorate your ear?
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: tuners and posers
Tool, not a crutch. Joze had it right.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
Beer doesn't affect my ear ... but it does affect my ability to do anything useful with the information it provides ...
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
Yes I've argued the existence of "beer headphones" for some time now....
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Freddy Frog
Re: tuners and posers
"It's come to a pretty pass when someone who has learned to tune by ear is accused of being a poser and giving a performance" - I'm completely with you there, Dafydd.
Tuning forks? yes
Electronic tuners? yes (to get a benchmark A, say)
But pitchpipes (Yhaalhouse)??? No! - my experience is that they are useless, often way off pitch, and certainly do not give a 'pure' tone (ie a note of one frequency)
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by domnull
Re: tuners and posers
I always tune my guitar and my mando by ear .
With the fiddle however I do use a tuner also. Guess I'm just not comfortable enough not to use one yet.
I dont see any problem with using a tuner, as long as the instument is in tune afterwards.
With regards to beer ears. Your hearing deinitely gets better when your plastered. By better though, I mean tollerant.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: tuners and posers
It's my experience that people who don't use tuners afe often out of tune, but then perhaps I don't have players of the quality of benhall.1 and dafydd in my area.
Quite frankly it just strikes me as snobbishness to complain about their use. I suppose you could go on about them not being traditional but then so little about traditional music nowadays is traditional. For example, most players of traditional music I know wear underwear (though I have to confess I haven't checked this out). I think you will find that this has not always been the case.
Sure, each instrument has its own tuning idiosyncracies that can only be sorted by ear (but you could then see where it puts the needle and remember) but a tuner is a help and the fact is that the majority of the "musicians" I know can't tune their instruments by ear to what I would regard as acceptable to my ears.
As for tuning up before you go out, well I usually do that out of habit. I'll then check my tuning when I get to wherever I'm going. But if this causes some of you amusement it counterbalances the annoyance I experience when performers (yes, I know, a different breed of musician to us diddlers) start tuning up on stage because they couldn't be bothered to do it beforehand. And if I'm going into the studio rather than waste precious time i would try to get my guitar in tune beforehand (like last week, adding parts to a song by a guitar player who tunes by ear using harmonics - his A was 446).
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by DonaldK
Re: tuners and posers
Simply put: not all Tuners are the same. Try several brands of tuners and test them against one another and you'll see. Also; c'mon. You can't tune by ear? You're not a poser, but neither am I. I just tune by ear. And I'm always on. So are many musicians. If you can't tune by ear, fine. But a lot of us can and do trust our ear equally ( or better ) than three different "tuners" that give three different pitches.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Farr
Re: tuners and posers
"Quite frankly it just strikes me as snobbishness to complain about their use."
In what way is it "snobbish" to complain that, in my experience, everyone who does use a tuner is woefully out of tune? Or to complain that they are just too f*ck!ng lazy to learn their instrument properly?
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
btw, I'm not against things because they're "not traditional". If someone invented an electronic device for ensuring no-one ever banged a horribly out of tune wet piece of skin in my left ear - something *powerfully* electronic that could maybe attach to a chair - I'd go for it like a shot.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
It's snobbish because to tune by ear is a skill that can take years to develop. I would say that after thirty five year's of playing my ability to tune by ear is still improving. the fact is that for a lot of beginning musicians (to use an Americanism) the tuner will make their instruments more in tune that if they could only use their ears. But I suppose you could always say "sorry, but if you can't tune satisfactorily by ear then you're not welcome here" or you could always offer to tune their instruments by ear for them.
I just don't see what is so offensive about tuners. And also some people have got bigger ears than me!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by DonaldK
Re: tuners and posers
And I still can't type.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by DonaldK
Re: tuners and posers
As i've already said, Farr, it's not the Tuners that differ, it's people's ability to use them.
Some Tuners are BETTER than others but in my experience different Tuners don't tune my instruments differently (although I never done this under scientific conditions - I would need a reference Tuner - I couldn't use my ears (they're biased)).
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by DonaldK
Re: tuners and posers
Anyway, can't stop. I need to go and buy some pickled walnuts. (Really.)
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by DonaldK
Re: tuners and posers
I'd kind of accept what you're saying, DonaldK, if using a tuner actually *did* make people's instruments more in tune. But, in my experience, it almost invariably seems to make it worse.
But I feel as if I'm being labelled "snobbish" for preferring people to be in tune, and to bother to learn the basic fundamentals of their instruments if they're going to inflict them on other people.
Actually ... fine. I'm a snob. I DO prefer music to be more or less in tune.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
The session I go to has one tuner thats oassed to whoever needs it, when people come in and sit down with their instruments and there's a tune on the go it's handy for tuning discreetly, we can all tune by ear though, there's always pro's and cons. On the other hand when you do get an out of tune inconsiderate, handing them a tuner is an amazingly subltle way to say to them, YOUR OUT OF TUNE YA SAP!!!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by fap
Re: tuners and posers
Hey guys, let's not start to bully other people into adopting our preferred techniques for tuning up. Why not just learn to accept that there's more than one way to skin a Cat, so you do what works for you & let the other dude do his or her own thing & leave the bullying & snobbery to 'Big Brother'!
Be honest, when was the last time you were at a session when every instrument was perfectly in tune, all night long? Some instruments are quite simply more prone to drift up or down .................... & let's not get into blaming instruments weaknesses here, either.
I reckon Bodhran players must have the best ears for tuning up, cause you never see them using a tuner!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: tuners and posers
Just a thought. I'm no electrical engineer so I could be wrong. But is it possible that the electronic components of the tuners themselves may be susceptible to ambient temperature fluctuation? Increased temperature will cause increased resistance, won't it? And a materials resistivity has a temperature coefficient, has it not? And aren't the sensors magnetic, so may display temperature dependent hysteresis?
I'm just contemplating this, but it may explain different results observed in different tuners.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: tuners and posers
Oh, come on, let's get back to the snobbery aspect because that's much more fun. I've been told (but surely it can't be true?) that many people with a classical music background are inveterate snobs and would turn their noses up at fiddles costing less than 10 grand, don't talk to people who might consider using anything other than Eudoxas, and as for electronic tuners, well, dahling!!! These people have the benefit of expensive middle class educations and private lessons in...tuning by ear and stuff like that. Well I think your horny-handed fiddle-scraper of the last century but one would have given his eye-teeth (if he still had them) for a magic gizmo that helped him get somewhat in tune!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by RichardB
Re: tuners and posers
What, taking the p!ss out of each other is more fun than trying to understand the science or any truth as to why discrepancies exist?
Fair enough, now I know why earlier I couldn't be bothered contributing to this thread - no offence BB, though.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: tuners and posers
Hang on a minute Richard B!
Classically trained? Yes
Inveterate snob? Matter of opinion dahling
Fiddle cost over £10,000 Certainly not!
Expensive middle class education? Through the hard work of both my parents
Violin lessons? Yes and I had to work hard at it from age 7
Do I care whether you use a tuner or not? No!
But if I don't like you you'll know about it and if i do like you then you'll know it too. Also if you're a good musician I'll think you're good and if you're not I won't, regardless of class, financial status or any other stereotypical label you wish to pick for yourself. HUMPH!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bowburner
Re: tuners and posers
Bowburner - I was only reporting a recent conversation! Re-read: I didn't say I thought such things myself!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by RichardB
Re: tuners and posers
Is the problem always out of tune instruments, or intonation while playing? I know that my left wrist (fiddle) tends to slide a little, especially when I'm really tired. I know when I'm off in intonation, and correct that. Obviously your instrument needs to be in tune to begin with.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Agnes Nutter
Re: tuners and posers
mmm.....getting more interesting now...................
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: tuners and posers
..... this is going to end in tears !
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by domnull
Re: tuners and posers
I Know Richard B, it just makes it more interesting if I focus on the negative aspect of your post, and anyway, wasn't there even a small part of you that thought it might be true? Otherwise you may not have thought of it?
Anyway, sometimes I just play out of tune to annoy people, depends if i'm in a grump or am bored and now I know how irritated people are by electronic tuners I might just start to use mine more often.....(Think I'd better go and have some chocolate!)
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bowburner
Re: tuners and posers
Just being mischievous. The fiddle played by the accomplished is a total turn-on, whether it's classical or celtic.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by RichardB
Re: tuners and posers
Pickled walnuts purchased.
Sorry Benhall, I didn't mean to imply you were a snob for wanting people to be in tune. I like people to be in tune as well and I agree that many people who use electronic tuners don't end up in tune. But then there are plenty of others who use electronic tuners who do end up in tune - it's just that they have better ears and know their instruments better (and that includes their tuner).
I was showing a friend of mine my wonderful new capo. He said he didn't use capos - they were just a sustitute for skill. So I pointed to the tuner stuck to the end of his twelve-string (not my favourite instrument, either) and said, "What about that then." He grinned and said, "Fair point"!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by DonaldK
Re: tuners and posers
Tuners are an abomination. Anyone who disagrees with me is just plain wrong. Democracy is a con. And all flute players are wusses!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
The maintenance (or lack therof) of the instruments affects the tone as well. I've seen fiddles with rosin build up, this changes the quality of tone and to someones ear, may sound "out of tune". I'd imagine the wind instruments require cleaning of oral secretions too.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Agnes Nutter
Re: tuners and posers
Now I've met my troublecausing match in Richard B I have to disagree with Benhall and I'm right! Democracy is wonderful (as long as I'm in charge) and flautists are absolute dahlings!
)
(Anyone like the wooden spoon I got for Christmas? Great for stirring up trouble
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bowburner
Re: tuners and posers
Reference has been made to the idiosyncratic tuning of guitars - going back to my classical guitar days, I'd go along with that. I have a recording of Boccherini's guitar quintets (for guitar and string quartet) played by Pepe Romero and members of The Academy of St Martin in the Fields (A London-based chamber orchestra, one of the world's best) - all musicians of the first rank. It is evident that the guitar and the quartet are unable to see eye-to-eye (or should it be "ear-to-ear"?) even at that level, and the overall intonation sounds distinctly damp in places.
There is a much more recent recording of the Russian virtuoso violinist Eduard Grach and an uncredited guitarist playing Paganini's sonatas for violin and guitar. Even here there are places where the intonation of the guitar and violin do not quite coincide.
I've played sonatas for cello and piano. The cello is normally tuned with just temperament (perfect 5ths between the strings), but if you have the cello A exactly in tune with the piano A (A220) you'll find that the other cello strings aren't exactly in tune with the corresponding notes on the piano because the piano is tuned to equal temperament. The differences in terms of Hz are fairly small, as this table shows:
Cello (just temperament) Piano (equal temperament)
A=220 A=220
D=146.7 D=146.8
G=97.8 G=98
C=65.2 C=65.4
Mathematically, you get the just temperament frequencies of the cello strings by dividing 220 successively by 1.5.
The equal temperament calculation is slightly more complicated because the octave has to be divided into 12 equal semitones. This is done by calculating the 12th root of 2 to get the number 1.05946309436. Dividing 220 successively by this number will give you the frequencies of all the semitones in the octave below A220. All that remains to be done is to select those corresponding to G, D and C, and further divide the figures for G and C by 2 to get them into the next octave below to match the cello frequencies.
I don't think it is a practical proposition to tune the cello strings exactly to the piano, for a number of reasons. If you tune the strings slightly away from true 5th (very slightly sharpening the C, G and D to bring them up to the piano pitch ) you're going to modify the resonance of the cello - it will sound overall "out of tune". This phenomenon, an important one, enables an experienced player to detect when a string slips out of tune when he's playing, even if he's not using that string at that moment. The difference between the just temperament and equal temperament is often going to be masked by a natural change in pitch (it goes sharp) of the open string if you play loudly, and on fingered notes by vibrato and the fact that a good player will subconsciously often alter his intonation to match the piano. By and large, I think it is better for the cellist to tune the open strings to just intonation. Same applies to the fiddle of course.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: tuners and posers
Benhall is The Decider. Someone has to be The Decider, and so that's that. Have all your little discussions, but in the end the troops are going .... (oops, wrong discussion.)
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by grego
Re: tuners and posers
Hmm, that table doesn't look as it did when I set it up. Just imagine a lot of extra spaces between the figures for the cello and those for the piano.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: tuners and posers
Yeah you have to separate the numbers with dots or something Trevor. I've had the same problem once.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: tuners and posers
benhall.1, "I'd kind of accept what you're saying, DonaldK, if using a tuner actually *did* make people's instruments more in tune. But, in my experience, it almost invariably seems to make it worse."
Seriously, though, how many specific examples of people using tuners and still being wildly out of tune do you have actual experience with? Is the the same couple of "tin ear" guys coming to a session you attend who can't seem to tune correctly ... or are you claiming a "large" number?
I've got two different electronic tuners and an "A' tuning fork ... the fork is not exactly 440, according to BOTH of my tuners (and, surprisingly by almost exactly the same deviation).
Despite the fact that I do know how to tune by ear (at least after hearing the A that I'm trying to be in tune with) I find it's just much faster to use the tuner (especially on my mando).
Most of the folks at my sessions do use electronic tuners (especially the mando and guitar players) and we seem to be pretty well in tune for most of the night....
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: tuners and posers
"Anyone who disagrees with me is just plain wrong." - Strangely, that statement reminds me of that old proverb: "Arrogance is Bliss"! ..... or was it ignorance? Of course I could just be mixing my semaphores there!
OK Bowburner, you can have your big wooden spoon back now!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: tuners and posers
I once went to a session in town (no I don't do that often, I don't like pubs for music), we were playing away nicely, whistle, one or two flutes, two fiddles and a concertina I think all nicely tuned to eachother . In comes the typical Dub with a bouzouki, sits down gets the yoke out tunes with a tuner. Joins in mid set and rather loud. He is not in tune with the rest of the session. After the thrid set he says: 'Jeez guys, yez are not in tune if you don't mind me saying.'
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Not rapid response but Swift enough...
little end or big end?
it seems bliss will decide!
either way,i think b bliss has surely had enough of this little yolk by now?
where's mrs merton when you need her.
so you can impose i suppose.
impugn me with your tuner and see if i care.
i'm raising my glass to all those players who tuned up before the invention of tuners.
i was assured by the shop that my fiddle was in tune when i bought it and see no reason to disbelieve them - or you,as it happens.
people do give me funny looks though.
maybe it's my former name...
Justin T. Nation...
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by biggus dave
Re: tuners and posers
Really, box players should get themselves tuned to concert pitch (unless they make a habit of playing with pipers, in which case tune to the pipes). Then, if everyone tunes to the box then the session should be in tune even if one person does use a tuner at a session. Personally, I wouldn't use one at a session, but only because I wouldn't rely on the session to be in tune. On stage, however, they are incredibly useful, especially if there's a lot of changing tunings involved as it makes tuning that much faster. Plus a high-end tuner will allow you to tune to just intonation of a certain scale as well as alter the reference A (although it would require re-tuning for each new key).
Re: tuning to perfect 5ths - are boxes equally tempered or tuned to a just scale? Ditto, is the it a just int. 5th (if it's a D/G) or a equally tempered 5th between rows? Or if it's a semi-tone box is the semitone based on equal temp. or just int.? It's worth pointing out that tuning an instrument to just int. means that you won't quite be in tune in a different key (although if its fretless you can adjust by finger position).
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Andy V
Re: tuners and posers
Why won't people who have problems tuning their instrument ask someone who can?
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by geoffwright
Re: tuners and posers
Just to prove a point, we put an electronic tuner on the bridge of a double bass and on the tuning head ........ and yes, it showed 2 different notes. Bass players can't win.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by geoffwright
Re: tuners and posers
Many years ago, when I was learning the classical guitar my teacher borrowed my guitar for a concert he was giving. This was in addition to his own instrument. He was playing a number of works with mixed tuning - some with the standard classical EADGBE and others with a dropped tuning DADF#BE . If he had used just one instrument he would have had to do several retunings during the concert, and a common problem is that if you tune the low E down to D there can be a memory effect in the string and it tries to climb back to its original pitch. Two guitars with different permanent tunings was the answer. I think he used mine for the drop tuning.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: tuners and posers
Just thought I'd mention - if anyone goes to see "Prairie Home Companion", Robert Altman's last film, there's a lot of tuners in that, hanging off people's guitars, banjos, etc.
Product placement ?
Personally I'm all in favour of them, although it does mean, as illustrated by the anecdote, that there are a lot of young people now who can't tune without one. Yep, I reckon anything that keeps us in good harmony is an improvement.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: tuners and posers
My mandolin will stay in tune on the journey to the session, and all night long. Mind you I am talking about £100 worth of instrument, maybe some of ypou are using cheap instruments.
I have played with the likes of JfiddlerH, Matt Molloy, Kevin Burke, Maria Lowry, Liam Og O'Flynn, Mickey Maguire, Micky Savage, Pat McConville, Paddy Keenan, all of whom have good ears, but not as accurate as the tuner. Savage once tuned a piano he bought for £40 three years ago by ear, and he was mighty close, but still not in concert.
I did say that I have no problem with people tuning to an accordian, as long as they are all in tune with each other. But when you know you are attending a "concert pitch" session, well it makes sense to all turn up in tune.
I have little objection to tuning by ear, I objected to people sneering at tuners and those who use them. The fact that benhall and Mr Llig are the main objectors, and biggest posing "performers" says a lot.
And benhall. John Williams, classical guitarist, uses a tuner. I suppose he was too lazy to learn how to play properly?
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
Don't bother replying, it will make you look even dafter.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
Twenty years ago nobody knew about eloctronic tuners, and they didn't have to and there was no need for one. To learn to tune your instrument by ear was the first thing you had to learn. Sometimes you even have to tune while playing with if necessary. There are also occasions when you have to drop the low E to D with the guitar in the middle of the score. You can't stop and say, "hey waitta minute". At least if that is not written in the score
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Risto
Re: tuners and posers
Twenty years ago even more amateur musicians were playing out of tune than today. And really, a lot of people are missing the point. Of course you should be able to tune by ear. But why sneer at something that can help you tune without having to drag your instrument into a dirty bathroom?
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
Excellent wind-up !
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by BegF
Re: tuners and posers
And really, do you think that if somebody is playing out of tune with the rest of the session doesn't even recognize it, you're going to be able to teach them to tune by ear? There has to be some basic pitch recognition, or you may as well teach pigs to sing.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
The big picture from my tiny corner of the world.
Being the old codger that I am, I remember sessions from 20 years ago. Being a concertina player, I'm often most useful as a tuner. In the old days I would have to remind people of the tuning pitch quite often, and as new players tuned up the pitch would morph until I asked everyone to stop and tune to the same pitch again please. But the session seemed to be constantly filling with hot air and drifting skyward.
On the occasions when I arrived late it was nearly impossible to get everyone on an agreeable pitch. Since the introduction and wide use of tuners this problem has just about disappeared. Sure the session still seems to fill with hot air, but the tuners act like release valves and each corner of the session has one.
So what effect has this had on the big picture? Well... they still aren't perfect, but sessions are generally in better tune these days. Also, if I'm a latecomer to a session I don't have to ask everyone to please retune. In the old days there was many a session I simply couldn't join because the pitch had strayed so far before I got there. Of course there might have been people who at the time thought that was an improvement, but this isn't about me -- it's about the tuning problem.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
Not in these parts TaoCat, they would have been told to tune up. But I can understand the current tendency to tolerate out of tune instruments because that seems to increase parallel to the increasing amount of electronic tuners.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Risto
Re: tuners and posers
A very low-level query, I'm afraid (I'm not even in the debate about tuners- I use and really NEED to use one, approximate or not!)
The Qu. is: I have a QuickTune model which sometimes seems reluctant to react when I pluck the fiddle's E string. Is this a common phenomenon, or do I just have a duff tuner?
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: tuners and posers
Who woulda thunk the use of tuners would generate such, um, over-warm discussion? If y'uns are telling me that some of the new tuners aren't accurate enough, then I'll accept that. When the first ones came out, I tested a few and found them to be pretty close to useless, except maybe for getting a rank beginner in the ballpark and ready for fine tuning. I've tested a few (half a dozen or so) new ones and they were very accurate, but I'll have to admit that they probably represented only two manufacturers.
I played for well over forty years with nothing more than a tuning fork or another instrument for reference and often rolled my eyes at people using tuners, but now that I've used one for a while, I think it's a great tool. Great for discreet tuning onstage or in a noisy situation. Also great for setting intonation on a fretted instrument - better than just about anybody's ear.
Of course, if you have to tune to a fixed-pitch instrument, a tuner won't help you unless you take the time to calibrate it to the fixed instrument.
I think a lot of the problem with string players (especially fretted instruments) being out of tune, even when they use a tuner, is probably that they haven't learned how to set the string so it's fairly stable. If you tune a guitar string in one big cranking motion and just stop when the tuner hits dead center, it won't stay in tune - even if you don't play it. You need to tweak it until the forces acting on it are better equalized. Greg the Piano Tuner could give us some wisdom on that subject. Paging Greg...
There's some additional technique to using a tuner on strings that can improve the results. When the tuner says you are at dead center, you can still nudge the string up or down a tiny amount without losing the dead center reading. If you play around with it a bit, you can locate something closer to the real dead center. And this tweaking will also help settle the string into equilibrium.
Regarding the Emajor guitar chord: if the strings are individually tuned perfectly accurately and if you have a decent ear, Emaj will always sound out of tune. If you make the Emaj sound decent, the Cmaj will sound awful. It's mainly the effect of equal-tempered frets plus the slight sharping effect of noting on the first fret.
And, in summary -
The ability to tune your instrument by ear is essential to being a real player.
Tuners are a very useful tool when you're in a noisy situation or need to tune discreetly.
Highly accurate tuners are available, but you have to learn how to use them properly.
Tuners are *not* abdominal, or whatever benhall.1 called them.
And, dafydd, give that Korg back to your friend and tell 'em you want an Intelli-touch.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Bob himself
Re: tuners and posers
In the sessions I attend, there are people who don't use tuners and are perfectly in tune, people who don't and are consistantly out of tune, people who do use tuners to get an A=440, and then more people who use tuners and, amazingly, seem to be further out of tune than before, and then happily continue playing.
I've been playing since I was 7, I'm now 17. I started classical violin, I was told to give my violin to the teacher to tune. Soon I started ITM, had a great teacher, who taught me things about the fiddle as well as how to play it and tunes. It took not much time to be able to tune my fiddle consistantly be ear. At age 11 or 12, I was the only one in the classical class who had any idea whether my violin was in tune or not..
is perfect pitch something that is developed or just there?
I think people should use tuners if they want to, and not apologise for doing so. As long as they are actually in tune once they've finished, which I don't see all that much here.
I notice that very few people now are putting in the effort on tunable instruments to learn how to tune by ear.. after all, you won't always have the tuner, what if the battery runs out or if you lose it?
To whoever it was who doesn't like people tuning up on stage- what else would you suggest they do as the heat from the lights send their instruments out...?
I'd much rather hear them tuning between sets and have the sets in tune than hear them be further and further out of tune with the rest of the band.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Sean Clery
Re: tuners and posers
Mr Bliss inferred that higher value instruments keep their tuning better. I have two violins, one "good" one and one old crate. The old crate never goes out of tune (ok so pegs and fine tuners are rusted into place, but apart from that..) whereas the good violin goes out of tune as much as you would expect. In conclusion, by an old crate of an instrument that has stuck itself in tune over the centuries and this whole debate will be over.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bowburner
Re: tuners and posers
Oh, and as for posing, some of us can look fantastic without having to tune by ear
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bowburner
Re: tuners and posers
Ptarmi, I'm surprised at you! I thought you were my 'friend'.
I'm hoping that you were joking, as I was. ... or was that the only part of my post that you disagreed with? Perhaps you too think that all flute players are wusses?
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
Meanwhile, it's obvious that electronic tuners were sent here from hell deliberately to foment discord where previously there was harmony; to bring error where there was truth; to bring doubt where there was faith, and despair where there was hope.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
Yeah, and they can help tune your instrument too!
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
Definition of an intellectual - someone who reads my post above and *doesn't* immediately think I'm quoting Thatcher.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
You know me Ben, I just can't resist throwing my twopence worth into a good old knees-up of a wind-up. Nice one Bliss!
As for Flute players always being out of tune with each other & everybody else Ben [ as well as being wusses ] I think the least said - the easiest mended!
Although, let's face it, If only Flute players could use an Intelli-touch it would surely mean ............................. no, I've said enough..
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: tuners and posers
"Twenty years ago there were more amateur musicians out of tune" Not true.I started attending folk clubs in the late 60's and the amateur floor singers were always in tune because there were no tuners and you had to learn to tune by ear,that was par for the course.You wouldn't even dare to play in public back then if you couldn't even tune up,they would have laughed you out of the place.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by dafydd
Re: tuners and posers
Mr Llig must be tuning his ear, with a tuner.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
It all boils down to whether you want to be totally reliant on a black box.The old guard who learnt their instrument before they were invented can probably take them or leave them but I think it would be a mistake to rely on them completely. I'll come clean and admit that it's not the tuners that annoy me,it's the people at sessions who can't tune up without them and can't use them properly passing their gizmo to me and telling me I'm not in tune when I know that I am in tune. I usually take it and speak into it say "Beam me up Scotty" and then tell them that I was tuning up guitars,fiddles and mandolins before they were born.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by dafydd
Re: tuners and posers
"Always in tune"? It might be interesting to dig up old recordings and videotape of past sessions and performances. But although I was playing blues at the time, I still recall a lot of people not being able to tune very well. Phantom Button's experience tends to corroborate mine.
Could be people are just remembering the "good old days" through a bit of rose-colored glasses. Laughed out of the place? Like Bob Dylan got for his off-key caterwauling?
Bottom line, get tuned however it takes, stay in tune. Use your ears, ask your friends. Try not to have delusions of grandeur.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
I do not suffer from nostalgia.I saw some terrible acts back then but even if they couldn't sing they were usually in tune.If they couldn't tune themselves they got someone else to do it for them.I used to tune Max Boyce's guitar for him when he was just starting out.I started out on guitar when I was eleven and for the first two years I spent as much time learning to tune it as I did playing it,that's why I don't need an electronic tuner.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by dafydd
Re: tuners and posers
Thirty years ago I played in Folk Clubs all over England, sometimes solo, sometimes in a group. I could tune the mandolin to itself, but wouldn't have been in tune with anyone else. Never laughed out of anywhere, Dafdd.
And I suppose there must be a contradiction to every rule What?, but our banjo player spends most of the night re-tuning. He is the one who does not use a tuner. Our guitar player, who has been playing for over 40 years, uses a tuner, and has an excellent ear. Obviously if he breaks a string he just tunes up, doesn't bring the tuner out to the pub, because his guitar stays in tune, after he has tuned up at home, which is where the thread began.
This entire thread illustrates that many people just like being dogmatic on this site. I never suggested that tuners were better than ear, or vice versa. I just said we should not sneer at, or apologise for, using a tuner. But some people were adamant, tuners are useless, ears are useless, etc. Perhaps you should read some of the posts with a bit more care.
And Tao Cat was exactly right a load of posts back, when she made that very point.
And Mr Llig is obviously still somewhat in awe of my prowess.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
As for Bob Dylan,you've no idea what it was like in 1963 when the charts were full of moon and tune garbage and then someone plays you The Freewheeling Bob Dylan album, songs about nuclear holocaust (a very real possibilty back then),race relations etc.Up until then I'd been trying to play Beatles songs but that album opened up a new world for me.I can't stand his voice nowadays but as Ian Anderson said recently back then his voice was one of the most exciting sounds on earth.Hard to believe,I know,but you have to put these things into their historical context.Andy Irvine discovered Woody Guthrie via Bob Dylan and look where that led him to,and he wasn't the only one.Christy Moore springs to mind..Don't knock the old groaner,we owe him a lot.
# Posted on January 31st 2007 by dafydd
Re: tuners and posers
dafydd writes: "If they couldn't tune themselves they got someone else to do it for them."
Now they can use tuners instead. And it takes up less room in the instrument case.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Riddle diddle...
semi-seriously,fred riddle (look him up & see where that gets you!) used to sometimes turn all 4 pegs mixed up/down and continue to play in tune.
this was to scupper anyone's' but my instrument was n't in tune' excuse for poor intonation btw.
it was a partly to show off as well but it did have a point i suppose.
i usually try to tune to the fixed instruments as best i can.
farewell for now,off for more gulliver travelling....
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by biggus dave
Re: tuners and posers
What happens if everyone forgets to bring their tuner?
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by dafydd
Re: tuners and posers
Eh, Sclery, I think I referred to people who go on stage and immediately tune up. If it's an open mic stage you won't make yourself very popular not having tuned up for your first/tune song.
Tuning between songs/tunes is fine as long as you don't go to the extreme of Dick Gaughan who spends close to fifty percent of his stage time tuning (or did last time I saw him). Of course, he was tuning by ear. Well actually he wasn't. If he'd been using his ears there is no way it could have taken that long.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by DonaldK
Re: tuners and posers
I suspect most people using tuners were playing for years before the advent of electronic tuners and can tune by ear as well as anyone. But they are courteous enough to know that being able to tune quietly, quickly and accurately in the midst of a noisy session is a boon to all.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Bren
Re: tuners and posers
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but has anyone else experienced the tuning hijackers? What I mean by that is people who seem to wait until everyone is trying to tune up so they can start their tune and disrupt the tuning process. These people also acquire a sudden bout of deafness and appear to not hear you if you remind them that you’re trying to get in tune and to please hold on for a minute.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Loki transformation
'What happens if everyone forgets to bring their tuner?'
well,dafydd,we just have to have salmon and there's and end to it.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by biggus dave
Re: tuners and posers
"What is the difference between a rock band and a blue grass band? The rock band plays all night and never tunes. The blue grass band tunes all night and never plays!"
OK - So how do we define a Trad Band?
The best answer wins a ...................... tuner!
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: tuners and posers
A trad band is where everybody argues all night about the proper way to tune.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
Oh my wholly F***CK - I cant play my instrument. This the worst news Ive had all week - apart from my redback spider infestation in the garden(same species as black widows) MY god - why the hell didnt someone tell me that if I needed a tuner then I couldnt play. Ive been wasting all this time tossing around and playing at sessions and stuff and now this! I am mortified and totally embarrassed - I'm going to go and die now - thanks. Thanks alot for only pointing this out to me 12 years after I started.....
"Oh mister redback.....mr Redback...,.where are you? I need a quick bite please'
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
OMG, bb, your insects over there scare the b-jesus outa me.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
Goodness, it's an arachnid, not an insect. And I'm certain they're very pleasant if you take the time to know them
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
People who have a fixation on electronic tuners would do well to take up the 13-course lute. That would keep them happy for years. They'd never get to play it of course, they'd be too occupied tuning it.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: tuners and posers
I was bitten by a very large black widow once. It was psychedelic to say the least.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
"If, having ACTUALLY TRIED, people are *still* incapable of "learning to tune", either with or without a tuner, then by all means go ahead and have them in your session. But don't expect me to be happy with them in mine."
Oh my oh my - this just gets worse and worse.....sorry for all the offence that I must have cause anyone. This is a terrible terrible day for the Tuning Challenged. I may just have to set up a support group...if you anyone wants to join just contact me through the site. I think I'll call it ...............
"I'd rather play tunes with someone who has slight tuning issues but who can still play with a bit of crankiness than play tunes with someone who can tune to perfect pitch and are still total tune hacks...of which there are many"
Sitting by the computer awaiting your membership - kind regards -Complete Tuning hack - bb
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
Uh... can I be in your club anyway?
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
Take solace bb, as I said earlier, John Williams can't play the guitar.
Yon bad learner is spot on.
And Dafydd, never apologise for Dylan. The man is as much a genius, as a songwriter, as Mozart was in his field. Absolutely awesome. And his last three albums have been good, but God Awful to see him live now, as he tries to be a 65 year old rock star, hidden behind a piano.
Although he does use a tuner.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
I prefer everyone to be in tune as well - its just that some people can do it by ear and some people cant. And some peopel cant do it by ear but refuse to used a tuner and then it all turns to cr*p and I blame you lads who are snobby about it. You are the ones who make it seem bad to use tuners and now there are all these out of tune musicians running about trying to tune by ear and failing. Thanks a lot!
Dont let that put you off of a visit down under - because if I can manage to live here then anyone can manage a visit - I hate spiders more than anything ever.
PS - PB - I am terrfied of these spiders - I know that they are not aggressive - but they are frigging everywhere - everywhere you look. Its creepy - plus they give you a mean bite and you have to have antivenom most times and its meant to be exruciating. Funny thing is - Ive lived in sydney my whole life and never ever seen anything like this before -Ive only ever seen redbacks in the bush and in Canberra. Just killed the 7th one today
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
And some people cant spell.....sorry
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
"...what it was like in 1963 ..."
Ah, dafydd, you're bringing a tear to me eye.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Bob himself
Re: tuners and posers
"Twenty years ago nobody knew about eloctronic tuners, and they didn't have to and there was no need for one. To learn to tune your instrument by ear was the first thing you had to learn. Sometimes you even have to tune while playing with if necessary. There are also occasions when you have to drop the low E to D with the guitar in the middle of the score. You can't stop and say, "hey waitta minute". At least if that is not written in the score "
Which is why 20 years ago - there were so many bloody out of tune sessions! All over the the place.
And "score"????"score"???? What kind of sessions do you play in, may I join? Can I bring my own "score"?
For goodness sakes - I get better and more interesting trad conversation from my redback spiders.......
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
Getting interesting now. Where is Michael, our beloved Mr Llig, to firmly put bb in her place?
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
Dear "Complete Tuning hack"
May I please join your support group, ""I'd rather play tunes with someone ... etc"
Cheers
Micael
.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: tuners and posers
And "score"????"score"???? What kind of sessions do you play in, may I join? Can I bring my own "score"? For goodness sakes - I get better and more interesting trad conversation from my redback spiders.......
Yes, sorry, my mistake. Twenty years back I wasn't interested in TM and was thinking of my guitar playing days. If it was the word "score" you didn't understand then don't worry, I'm not an english native speaker either and have these problems quite so often.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Risto
Re: tuners and posers
Finally lost it. "Alas poor Llig, I knew him well"
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
"I'd rather play tunes with someone who has slight tuning issues but who can still play with a bit of crankiness than play tunes with someone who can tune to perfect pitch and are still total tune hacks...of which there are many"
"I prefer everyone to be in tune as well - its just that some people can do it by ear and some people cant. And some peopel cant do it by ear but refuse to used a tuner and then it all turns to cr*p and I blame you lads who are snobby about it. You are the ones who make it seem bad to use tuners and now there are all these out of tune musicians running about trying to tune by ear and failing. Thanks a lot!"
So, which is the real bb? Would you prefer to play with out of tune people or would you prefer people to be in tune?
Apart from the obvious confusion in the above posts, I've got more issues with that lot. I never said it was remotely a good idea to tune to perfect pitch, whatever particular pitch you may mean by that. In fact, that's a large part of my point, because boxes are seldom at A440 - assuming that's what you mean by "perfect pitch". So why use a tuner when you know before you start that it's bound to be wrong, when compared with a fixed pitch instrument? It's like using a map of Scotland to navigate around Italy.
And please, DON'T pull the seniority card - "Thanks alot for only pointing this out to me 12 years after I started....." What the hell's THAT got to do with it?
I could do without the sarcasm - and I could do without the people who can't be bothered to tune properly WITH OR WIHTHOUT A TUNER, as I quite carefully said in my earlier post.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
Are tuners *always* bad, under all circumstances? Do they really make you play out of tune? Sound like a few of us here use them from time to time (although mine has been in my wife's autoharp case for the last few months until I dragged it out to check the accuracy earlier.) Some depend on them, and after hearing bb's YouTube tunes, I can't say that depending on one makes somebody a bad player, as she sound quite nice.
Really, when you start getting dogmatic and dealing with absolutes, there's a good chance you're dealing with your own problems and not reality.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
Warming up nicely. Loads of strings, tune to concert, in the house, saves time and all that posing.
Got an accordian or the like, tune to that, as long as everybody is the same. And after what I have posted on the other thread, I know Mr Llig disagrees, he says tune to whatever you like. He is that much of a posing performer that "pitch" means nothing to him. "I laugh at pitch" you can just hear him saying with a daring, cavalier attitude. My hero.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
... 'cept I spelt it wrong ... rats
btw, I hope there's nothing dogmatic about saying that the only people I've experienced in sessions who use tuners have ended up more out of tune than before they got them.
No ... not absolute either ...
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
You said "TaoCat, I think I *am* saying tuners are always bad. Or, to be more accurate, people who use them always seem to be badly out of tune."
Are always bad. Always badly out of tune. Sound absolute to me.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
Sounds...sounds absolute.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by TaoCat
Re: tuners and posers
"I knew him Horatio"
Obviously, acuaracy doesn't count.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: tuners and posers
Hydraulics my dear Benhall. Maybe in Herts, with all those Irish who know little about ITM, but in the wider world, they appreciate "real" tuning.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
Seniority card? Are you kidding me? Most people I know in Ireland have been playing since they were knee high to a grasshopper - 12 years is nothing on them.
In a perfect world everyone would be able to tune - i just meant that I'd rather play with someone who had a little tuning issue than someone else who can tune properly who doesnt crank it up.
Things have away of coming across much more horrid on tihs board than if you said them face to face in real life.
"If, having ACTUALLY TRIED, people are *still* incapable of "learning to tune", either with or without a tuner, then by all means go ahead and have them in your session. But don't expect me to be happy with them in mine."
That comment is just plain rude. Maybe I was being sarcastic - but I wasnt excluding an entire bunch of people from my session in one fell swoop.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
See - my last point on that last post sounded much more mean than I meant it to. Sorry to cause offense benhall. Didnt mean to really - just trying to join in the discussion as a person who uses a tuner. Believe me - its better that I do rather than not - my ear is useless -as you can prob gather from the Youtube vid. Quite obvious really.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
150 posts and no-one's said use your common sense.
Use your common sense.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: tuners and posers
This thread lost all vestige of common sense when the first three posts agreed with ME. That has never happened, ever.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
FWIW,
I would imagine tuning pipes, hammered dulcimer etc would take longer to tune, but generally speaking, musicians who play Guitar, Mandolin, Flute, Whistle, Fiddle, etc should be able to tune their instruments in about 30 secs - 1 minute.
They should already be familiar with the particular tuning
idio-syncracies of their own instrument.
Never met someone using a tuner who hasn't taken less than 4-5 minutes. Upshot is that it can save time (especially on stage) to tune by ear and it's something less for me to carry around.
pkev
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by pkev
Re: tuners and posers
It's probably worth reiterating the point I made umpteen posts ago that too much reliance on electronic tuners trains the eye and not the ear. And is not the ear more important to a musician than the eye?
That is not to say that there can be circumstances when a electronic tuner is useful (other than as a substitute for a tuning fork) because we're talking mainly about noisy and slightly chaotic sessions as opposed to the relative calm of an orchestral rehearsal or private practice in the quiet of one's home.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: tuners and posers
Donald, i apologise, i didn't realise you meant that.
Yes, Dick Vaughan... that was, well, quite annoying!
i've never seen anybody who has gotten their instrument in tune with a tuner apologise for tuning with a tuner.
I have seen those who fail, apologise, although I don't think they need to.
Would people be offended if you offered to tune it for them?
I offered once, and was told several things not too polite and that his 40+ years on me meant more, or something.
In sessions with people like Sean McJerry, I have often heard them say pull it out abit, aimed at flutes.. nobody seemed offended.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Sean Clery
Re: tuners and posers
On fretted instruments, a tuner gets you close. You then need to adjust the tuning to your instrument. They are all different because of variations in set-up. Very few instruments are perfectly set up, and there is loads of dissagrement amoungst luthiers as to the "correct" set up. So a tuner will never get your instrument perfectly in tune because no two instruments are set up exactly the same.
20 years ago, I remember far more tuning problems than now, so either the players are getting better, or they have some help in the way of tuners.
Tuners can help, but you still need your ears to make final adjustments.
And BB, I can't believe you are worried about Red Backs, when you live in a place infested with Funnel Webs. Now there's a spider. Fangs the size of a red bellied black snake and the temperement of a crocodile with a tooth ache.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by woops
Re: tuners and posers
Exuse me folks... I'll be away for a bit tuning my flute with my common sense. Carry on... talk amonst yourselves.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
thedon - But I havent seen a peep of a funnel web in about 10 years - but when I walk out the door now - all I can see is black and red....ugh
I hate all spiders anyways - I would make a terrible buddist - its a pity cause I really like buddist stuff - I just cant help wanting to kill all the spiders in the world!
I cant PB was bitten by a black widow - that is really scary!
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
I knew a bass player once whose hand was bitten by a black widow while he was sleeping---they only found out because a week later he ended up having a fever and a blue line all the way up his arm and they almost had to amputate it.
About the only thing you can do is check every day for bites and watch them carefully. And a good exterminator helps!
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by kennedy
Re: tuners and posers
I was relaxing on my front porch stretching my legs out under a table and felt a strong prick on my ankle. I looked with my flashlight but couldn't see anything there. Within a short time I felt sick and was lying on my bed hallucinating. There was a weird sense of calm and I didn't even seem concerned about dying. The next evening I patrolled the spot under the table and finally saw the biggest black widow I’ve ever laid eyes on next to a knothole in the wall. I nearly passed out at the sight of it.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
Wow, Jack, you could die from something like that. Did you call 911?
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by kennedy
Re: tuners and posers
Exterminator is booked!
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
They give you antivenom here for redbacks - didnt you have to have antivenom Jack?
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
i once had a well known fiddling hero of mine who stayed at my place while on tour in OZ. It turns out that he was arachnophobic. We pulled up at my place and parked in the garage. When he got out of the car and stood up, right in front of his face was enormous spider web with several hundred baby spiders hanging an inch from his nose. He let out an almighty scream and bolted into the street. It took a while to convince him to come inside and have a few tunes.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by woops
Re: tuners and posers
I didn't realize I was bitten by a black widow; I think I expected it would be more painful. I didn't call 911, didn't get any antivenom... I just laid on my back and hallucinated. It occured to me at one point that a black widow might have bitten me, but as I said... I didn't care if I died. I remember thinking to myself how I've had a happy life and it's a nice day to die. Mind you I've more than doubled the amount of years I have lived since then.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
M y husband is from a place where nothing is venomous - No matter how much I tell him - I cant seem to convince him that redbacks are poisonous....And when we lived in his country every time I'd see a spider I'd run, scream and almost faint - no matter how hard he tried to convince me I just couldnt believe that they could be harmless.......strange.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
A place were nothing is venomous? I just can't imagine it. Nearly everything is here (especially the press).
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by woops
Re: tuners and posers
Venomous - especially on that big hill in Canberra
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
Phantom....the laying back and just hallucinating probably saved your life.
In Oz in the last fortnight a teenage boy died after being bitten by an eastern brown snake while walking a suburban bush reserve. He and his mates walked 15 minutes to get help, and he had his first cardiac arrest as they reached a football field with an ambulance on duty who revived him. Less than 24 hours later he died following multiple cardiac arrests and organ damage from the poison. The experts all said ..if he'd just laid down and let his mate get help - even though it would have taken longer to get treatment....he would have survived. Sad, I think he was only about 14.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by FiddleFancy
Re: tuners and posers
I've often thought that PB was hallucinating
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by woops
Re: tuners and posers
and I'd RESISTED saying 'it explained a lot!"....
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by FiddleFancy
Re: tuners and posers
Everyone has to be a comedian... geesh!
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
OK - woken up and read the intervening posts.
Firstly, bb, sorry, I didn't mean to be rude either. As I've said before, I've heard your clp on YouTube, and it's fab. If we met, I'd hope that you wouldn't mind my playing too much either. And that's what counts at the end of the day.
bb and Tatocat - I was trying to say, and that's why I put it in capitals, that what I really don't like, is when people, whether using a tuner or not, don't *try* to tune properly. I didn't actually say anything against people who try and fail. But it does seem to be true that there are a lot of people who don't try, and I can't apologise for finding that unacceptable.
Did *that* come out better than when I posted before?
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
I think that this thread has reached it's saturation point
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by dafydd
Re: tuners and posers
Jack a écrit:
"Exuse me folks... I'll be away for a bit tuning my flute with my common sense. Carry on... talk amonst yourselves." [sic]
No, no, no! Come back here! The exercise of common sense in the matter ot tuning must be done in the company of all those playing together in the session. If you come with a fix-pitched instrument such as a harmonica (not actually as fixed as some would have it - see below) or your concertina, and you're in danger of showing up after everyone else has tuned up and started playing, then it behoves you to engender in your fellow sessioneers a culture of tuning to A=440. This works best if at least somebody has a tuner, human ears and brains being what they are. Anyone who wants to play in sessions yet brings along a fixed-pitch instrument that strays significantly from A=440 is a pain in the neck. And, fiddlers, never ask a harmonica player for an A. He may play you the note and bend it. His harp may be tuned to A=443 or similar (we all do it, for reasons beyond the scope of this thread). And the harp may not be in equal temperament. I've seen this kind of thing lead to tears. Finally, if y'all want to stand some vestige of a chance of staying tolerably in tune all evening, under no circumstances allow a 12-string guitar player to your session. And the tuning's just one of the reasons.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: tuners and posers
The person I know who spends most time at the beginning of the session painstakingly tuning his flute to a tuner, goes on to actually play the most out of tune of any player I've ever heard.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Ottery
Re: tuners and posers
Flutes (and whistles occasionally) do seem to be common culprits, as well as the aforementioned 12-strings, which are usually OK to start with, but once they drift and their owners start to meddle to get 'em back again... Not to mention those fiddlers who take 45 minutes to get their intonation right. Only some fiddlers, mind. Still, it's all good fun. Until somebody cracks and complains. Maybe tuning a flute is like tuning a harmonica. You just don't blow the same when you're tuning, hunched over a tuner, as when you're playing. Just a guess in the case of the flute.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: tuners and posers
I really ought to add that the 12-string guy who is a regular at our sessions is a glorious exception to all I've said above.
Steve (cringin' coward)
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: tuners and posers - 180
one hundred aND EIGHTY !
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by domnull
Re: tuners and posers
I presume Jack's story was to prove that the eye is more important to a musician than the ear. If he had a trained eye he would have seen the spider.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
Now let's all flip-flop our positions on the subject and go another two hundred replies.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Bob himself
Re: tuners and posers
I LOVE tuners personally!!! I wouldn't be without mine. I can't understand how anyone can possibly be in tune without.
And all that snobbish pretence! Well!
Mind you, I don't much care if I'm in tune or not!
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
Well, it's a good thing you don't care, 'cause those devilish little tuner thingies are made for the sole purpose of rendering you out-of-tune and destroying your ability to perceive pitch. If you use a tuner, the terrorists win!
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Bob himself
Re: tuners and posers
Ah but no!
Tuners are glorious things. If only we could teach the terrorists how to use one. (Actually, thumb to kink about it, there probably IS a terrorist use for them ... hmm ...).
I'd go so far as to say that the only reason I have the right to call myself a musician at all is my ability to use a tuner.
And the best part of a session for me? That half hour at the start when we all try and tune using different pitches on our different makes of tuner and then talk about how good ours is, and how we got it for Christmas and how it's revolutionised our playing!
Thank GOD for tuners, I say!
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
This thread has been very cathartic for you... hasn't it, Ben?
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
In the early days of dealing with my flute tuning I tried having a tuner handy to establish my pitch with. But it seemed like I could produce a tone that would center the needle, but I couldn't stay on pitch when it came to playing. After playing out of tune I would refer back to the tuner and without adjusting the tuning slide bring the needle back to center with little effort. What I eventually realized is that there are too many variables and you simply have to rely on your ears and adjust your tuning in the course of playing. The tuner is now collecting dust here on the table behind my monitor.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
After all of this we should now be "close enough for jazz".
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
... um ... yes ... um ...
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
That last post was in response to PB's a couple back ...
... and yes, I feel well and truly catharised ... mmm ...
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
Catherized??? I didn't realize you were that aged, Ben. We should show more respect now I suppose.
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
bb I can't believe what we did yesterday, pulling your garden to bits in a drunken state. We could so easily have been bitten. What were we thinking?!
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: tuners and posers
Hallucinogens?
# Posted on February 1st 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
Yeah - Dow came over and insisted on seeing a redback cause he'd never seen one before - we prob saw about 20-30 little ones, but at the very end we found a big mama. Dow who is terrified of spiders was awe struck by just how beautiful she was - with her big red stripe. I'm afraid I'm just not nice cause I couldnt find anything particulary beautiful in that horrid spider. Sigh -
This thread has been good food for though - I'm never going to america again if you just get bit willie nillie by black widows
No seriously - I'm going to see if I can do without my tuner for tuning. But if the session snubs me - then I'm going to tell them that thesession.org made me do it!!!!!
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
Why? Tuners are better.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
No please Beebs, don't do that, we prefer you with your tuner
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: tuners and posers
Hey bb.....my mum got bitten on the toe by a redback....and felt the sting and saw it was a redback so was worried and went to the hospital, was given a small injection...and that was it. Apart from the initial ouch...no pain. No swelling. No being sick. Said she'd had mozzie bites that were worse! But it may have just been a little redback!
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by FiddleFancy
Re: tuners and posers
Ive a friend who was bitten when she was a teenager - she couldnt get to hospital for 5 hours because she was bushwalking - by the time she crawled back she was put in intensive care. I beleive it depends on the size, how quick you can get to medical care and Ive read that some people react worse than others. I'm not willing to take the chance though - weve found a few real whoppers in the garden.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by bb
Re: tuners and posers
I'm avoiding cleaning the garage for the same reasons. Moved a box the other day and three redbacks scurried away.....they weren't fast enough though....I had the Baygon out quick smart. Though last time I reached for the Baygon I didn't check the can and hairsprayed a cockroach to the floor! Actually think the hairspray kills more quickly!
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by FiddleFancy
Re: tuners and posers
Could someone PLEASE answer the question about box intonation (ideally someone who knows, but quite frankly by this point I'd take a load of rubbish)?? I actually really want to know now.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Andy V
Re: tuners and posers
"Though last time I reached for the Baygon I didn't check the can and hairsprayed a cockroach to the floor! Actually think the hairspray kills more quickly!"
-------------------------------------------------
Yes, especially when you ignite it.
A few months ago I was going outside late at night for a smoke. When I pushed the latch on the screen door I heard a buzzing sound, and assumed it was a wasp.
I turned on the lamp and exclaimed something that I can't repeat here when I saw that it was a very larger female black widow. She had spun her web between the door frame and the latch on the screen door. Apparently, the buzzing sound was her legs hitting the screen while she tried to find whatever had distrubed her web.
My hand had been right next to her but she must have gone for the latch instead of my hand. I had a nervous hour checking over my hand and waiting for something to happen.
So you see, smoking really is dangerous.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Marklar
Re: tuners and posers
Er, "large" not "larger"
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Marklar
Re: tuners and posers
And "disturbed" not "distrubed." Oh forget it, I'm going outside for a smoke.
# Posted on February 2nd 2007 by Marklar
Re: tuners and posers
Not quite on-topic, but I've noticed in orchestral concerts an increasing tendancy to tune up during the applause of the previous item. This sounds really weird to me - it makes sense in that the orchestra's ready for the next piece, but it leaves me with the impression that the orchestral players (who we're applauding) aren't interested in our reaction.
I've never noticed people tuning during applause in band gigs although on one level it makes perfect sense.
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: tuners and posers
I prefer "distrubed" and I'm keeping that word now you've introduced it, Screetch.
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by ethical blend
Re: tuners and posers
Och I get it now, so when he said he'd been bitten by a "Black Widow", he was actually talking about a Spider!
... don't worry, I'm leaving now, & I might be some time ...................
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by Ptarmigan
Re: tuners and posers
bb writes: "I'm never going to america again if you just get bit willie nillie by black widows"
I don't blame you, beebs, I dated a black widow for a while, and you're right -- she did bite my willy... and my nillie!
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: tuners and posers
We don't tune during the applause at my orchestral concerts. For one thing, we're usually standing up to acknowledge the applause. If the conductor thinks a re-tune is necessary it is done openly before the next item. It doesn't take long. Shows we care.
# Posted on February 3rd 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: tuners and posers
If someone is tuning up between tunes or orchestral pieces, does that mean they played the last piece out of tune?
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: tuners and posers
I'm trying to think of an orchestral instrument where the player cannot compensate for the instrument being a bit off (except maybe the harp). Clever that, they don't play mandolins. The tuning up between tunes is to simply make it easier to play in tuine. Such subtleties of tuning is surely lost on those who tune up in the house before they come out.
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: tuners and posers
vivaldi wrote a concerto for mandolin
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: tuners and posers
Instruments can and do drift out of tune while playing a piece in a concert, especially in the first half of the programme when the temperature and humidity in the hall is changing and if the concert starts with a particularly loud piece. It's usually the brass and woodwind which tend to go sharp, and it's obviously not possible for them to retune in the middle of the piece, although professionals can often compensate on the hoof. It's part of the conductor's job to notice these things, and if the intonation is starting to go wrong for the aforesaid temperature/humidity reasons, or if he thinks it's going to become noticeable to the audience he'll call for a quick retune between pieces or movements of a piece.
A solo violinist or cellist playing a concerto may sometimes have a quick retune between movements of the piece. The power they have to put into their playing will send even the best strings (which would otherwise be fairly stable in a session) go out of tune. I've seen a soloist quickly (and very quietly) retune a string from the peg during a couple of empty bars in his solo part.
A trick that can be used in an emergency to quickly sharpen a string that has gone slightly flat is to press down with a finger on that part of the string in the peg box between the peg and the nut. You've got to know what you're doing, but it works. A similar trick is used If a string goes sharp (it's usually one or both of the two lower strings); its pitch can be flattened by quickly pulling sideways and strongly on the string about halfway along the fingerboard so as to stretch it. Again, if you know what you're doing, it works.
We're talking here about real life on the concert platform in front of a paying audience, not the artificial hothouse environment of the recording studio!
# Posted on February 4th 2007 by Trevor Jennings