It's been on my "new year resolution list" for a decade, but still I haven't found a good way of dealing with it :
Are there any ways of improving how to map tunes to names and "getting the right tune started" - without reverting to written material or other aids?
I am a "believer" that learning the names can be useful - and hopefully worth the effort - as a way of pulling out tunes from your sleve when needed - and especially when leading the tunes/ set.
I don't know how it is with you guys, but I find it ten times harder - and more time consuming - to learn the name of a tune and put it on my "instant retrieval list" - than it is to learn the tune itself.
So, what's the trick - have any of you developed a smart way of making them names stick? Are other approaches more useful?
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
I love tune names and find it easy to remember them. I do keep a written list of all my tunes with me at sessions. Next to the name I put the key it's in and if it's a new tune or one I keep mixing up with a similar tune, I'll have the first 3 or 4 notes jotted down, cheat-sheet style. I can't do it without the written aid of my list, because at a session, I just go all blank, as far as what tunes I should play when someone asks me to start a set.
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I know a lot of people who use a method similar to Andee's. My biggest problem is that I seem to know a lot of tunes that have similar phrases..... ever start a tune and finish with another one.. duh. I do it all the time
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Hey Zina, it really didn't help one little bit but it was a great read. My habit of starting one tune and ending with another applies not just to Irish music... it's a clever thing my brain does on me that a phrase or even just a couple of notes will remind me of something else and off I go. I used to do it as a joke to my flute teacher. Made him crazy.
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Last summer I was at a busy session at the Nova Scotia pub in Bristol (UK) and went to the bar in the next room to get a drink. Now there must have been about 30 players in that session and the acoustics of the place were such that if you were in the bar it was impossible to make out what tune that blast of sound coming out of the session room represented (not that it made much difference if you were actually in the session room!) Anyway, I was waiting the statutory 2 minutes 17.4 seconds for my pint of Guinness to be poured as per the rubrics when a cheerful inebriate wandered up to me and asked me the name of the tune that was playing. Not having the faintest idea of what was playing or even if it was indeed the same tune as when I had left the session room I said the first thing that came into my head which was "Sally Down By The Docks", a singularly apt (and fictitious) title bearing in mind that the Nova Scotia is a very old harbourside pub. Whereupon the cheerful inebriate thanked me profusely and meandered away out of this story and out of my life.
Now where was I? Oh yes. A problem with many Irish tunes is that the first one or even two bars are often indistinguishable, which is one reason why the person who starts a tune is sometimes playing on his own well into the A part until the other players work out what the tune is, which can sometimes be a little unnerving if you're the tune starter and you're not yet very experienced. Another problem is that most Irish tunes have many alternative names - look at almost any tune submitted on this site - and sometimes a single name is applied to more than one tune. And then there are quite a few "Gan Ainm" tunes - which means that the name is unknown. I've been to many sessions where tune names are never mentioned and if you ask what a tune is, and of course you might only find an opportunity to ask this question a few minutes after the tune has been played, then people try to be helpful but unfortunately often either genuinely don't know or can't remember.
I think the only conclusion you can draw from this situation is not to worry too much about tune names and to try out Andee's idea of keeping a little aide memoire of the first few notes of the tunes you know so that you can kick start them. I must remember to try it myself sometime. Thanks Andee!
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Well, I can't remember my own phone number, or what I had for lunch today, or where I left my car keys, or what mnemonic means ( ;o), but for some reason (wholly unfathomable to me), I remember tune names. They just stick with the notes. I can play a tune without being able to recall the name right off (some people struggle with a tune unless they get the name in their head), but that's rarely a problem for me--the notes come out and the title pops into my head.
I honestly don't know how or why this happens. The best I can guess is that I connect to the tunes on an emotional level, sort of like to my family and a few close friends. I feel open or "vulnerable" to the tunes, and so their names and features are very significant to me.
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For those of us with "tefal" memory I think the aid of a little notebook will do most of the trick - thanks Andee!
And for those of you with the gift of getting them names right (how did I anticipate that Will would be one of them... ) - this learning and skill seems connected to the love and desire in appreciating both the names and the tunes. Motivation is of course essential in the learning process.
In Paddy O'Brians tune collection POBs ability to recall tunes is briefly mentioned, but it comes down to his statement "I dont't know. I just do it" He also connects emotions and feelings to tunes - to the extent that he renamed the "Tam Lin" into Howling wind (correct me if I'm wrong).
I think he somewhere has mentioned that he links his learning to the the learning process and the places / situations where he first heard / first learned the tunes. The few sets that I do have the ability to recall usually stems from such situations. (Workshops, the first place I heard the tunes and got the desire to learn them, etc.) This approach would however require additional creativity if I wanted to apply this to every new tune I rehearse in my loft (where I practice at night..)
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Funny, but I'd not thought too much about how I remember tunes, so have given it some thought and made some discoveries!!
I can't play a tune if I can't recall the name, even if I know I know it. I don't know it at all without the name. When someone says it's 'The Banshee' or whatever, I can then picture the notes, or feel the opening few bow strokes.
I really have to know a tune in my head all the way through like a picture of the notes, and be able to feel the bow direction and how I bow certain phrases. I didn't relaise that! So thanks for the prompt to make me think about it Halldor!! I think it'll be useful self knowledge.
Some tunes I do have to memorise the first few notes, and then I can easily muddle them up with other tunes, especially ones in E minor that are like the Peat Fire Flame.
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I had already listened to the traditional music (mainly on the CDs) for two years and remembered the names and melodies of many tunes when I picked up the whistle. Even if I don't remember the name of the tunes, I know who recorded on which album.
So I recommend you to collect and record the sets of the tunes you like on the tape or MD from CDs or actual sessions and listen again and again. If you forget the names, refer to the liner notes of the recordings or ask somebody. Sometimes no one cannot name them, though....
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This might not work with all tunes but it certainly works for me in many of them.
I find a phrase in the tune where I think the words of title might be sung. When I'm practising, I sing the title in my head at the appropriate point.
Here's a couple of examples... "Roll Her in the Ryegrass" I remember from the closing notes in each part. "Swinging on the Gate" has a starting phrase and an ending phrase where I can sing the title in my head.
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Halldor, I think Howling Wind was called Howling Wind before Paddy called it that -- could be wrong about that, but I got that impression from the player I learned the tune from. Anybody got a definitive on that? I suppose we could write Paddy and ask him.
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I just want to add my name to the list of contributors who find that they cannot start a tune, even when they know that they know it, until they can recall the name. This can be so frustrating at a session when finally, after three hours waiting to recognise a tune, one you play comes up and you can't get started on it because you've forgotten the name. So glad it's not just me!
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I have just the opposite problem of Paul. Somebody asks me to start a tune - using the name, then I can't remember how to start it. Once I hear the first two or three bars in the tune, the whole tune comes to me. Attaching the name to the tune is terribly difficult, though. I have to work very hard at it. My best method is typing the names into my Palm Pilot, and jotting down the first four bars in ABC. Then I have a little ABC player that will play the tunes. I use this as a study aid. I spend painful hours at home trying to force my reluctant mind to remember the start of a tune, given the name. If I can't get it in a few seconds, I hit the play button. I use the Palm Pilot like flash cards, and I swear that recalling the tunes by the names is as difficult as memorizing the multiplication table was. If anybody knows a less painful way, then please tell me.
Oh, and I find it strange that if I first hear a tune, I have no problem remembering the name. It's just the other direction that gives me trouble.
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How many times has it happened to me? I am up on stage and I forget the names of the tunes. It's a little entertaining to the audience when I say for instance that Maho Snaps is first, Whatchamacallit is second and I haven't a clue is third.
I don't mind that problem as much as I mind forgetting how a tune starts. Take this last session. BarrowBurn was a blank in my head. Paddy Ryan's dream took a while while I remembered the b part first and had to run it though my head. Not till I got to the last note did I finally remember the A part. From that point on - we had a very good set.
Andee's suggestion works great if you keep on top of it. I had another friend who kept her act together by using one of those tiny loose leaf notebooks (1/4 page). She reduced her music and put it in the notebook. When she knew that the music was forever unforgettable, she moved it to name and starting notes only section.
As for me - I was thinking a brain transplant would work just fine.
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In Siddhartha (modern literary bible to 20-somethings seeking the meaning of life), Herman Hesse builds a novel around the Govinda syndrome: looking so hard for something that you can't see it when it is in front of you.
I wonder if that's at work here for some people. We want so badly to have instant recall of the notes and the tune names that our intensified concentration actually intereferes with our ability to remember, play, or speak the names.
I bring this up only because of my own experience in playing the tunes--I can almost always remember how a tune starts, but if I goof up a phrase that comes later in the tune, then I start to panic as it comes around again--will I get it right this time?! How does it go? WHY CAN'T I REMEMBER!!!??? and sure enough I'll choke on it again. I've found it's much more effective to repeat my "effortless" mantra and get inside the tune (assuming that I'm on the part that I *do* remember , and by the time the missing link comes around again, I've forgotten that I forgot it last time, and it just falls into place, part of the natural stream of the tune.
Having this happen (at first, thanks to the anti-anxiety effects of an overdose of porter) convinced me that my conscious mind is what causes the forgetfullness. Relax and the names and notes will come to you. Get uptight about it, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Time also makes a difference. If you live with these tunes for 20-30 years, they tend to hover close to the surface, even when you're doing other things. Being a writer and compulsive list maker, I made it a habit to also live with the *names* of tunes. For my personally jumbled blend of learning styles, it also helped me to transcribe all the tunes I know--initially I wrote 'em down as a way to pass them on to friends. But then I got into it and the simple act of notating a tune is a reinforcement of the aural input and often helps me recall it, without having to refer back to the actual sheet music. So I always write the name of the tune, composer if known, and my source on the top of the page the notes are on. Just another way to link all the info together, so it comes back out more or less in one piece.
Incidentally, it makes much more sense to me to think of writing, reading, listening to, and playing music as all complementary, mutually reinforcing approaches to the tunes than somehow mutually exclusive.
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Aaaaaaaaaaugh! I don't DO Herman Hesse. Don't despise me for it, but I guess I'm too shallow and epheremal to read Hesse and take him seriously (he does such a good job of taking himself seriously) -- after about fifteen minutes of reading I want to throw the book across the room. ("Get to the point!") I remember reading a parody of one of his books and it went on and on about following someone up the mountains and never being able to find him, and it didn't seem all that different from the original to me! It reminds me of some of the high-falutin' cocktail parties I used to have to go to for theatre functions.
Let's see -- what did I read last night that struck me? Something like: it is the nature of all Ways that one never knows who the teacher will be or where the teacher will be found.
Sidharta is a little better (i.e.: shorter) in this respect, than Magister Ludi (sp?). But alternatively, just go to the tunes session and post a couple of German polkas. The titles have to be in German, for this to work, but then it's guaranteed to get you at least some enlightment, no bodhi tree required.
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It's interesting to learn that some others have the same problem I do: even when I KNOW I know a tune, I can't play it unless I remember the name. Usually when I hear the first bit of a tune, the name pops into my head and at the same time my hands know where to go to play the notes. Sometimes the recognition takes longer than other times, and unfortunately it isn't uncommon for me to listen all the way through once (or even more!), thinking "I know this -- what IS it?".
I've mentioned this tune name thing of mine to my session friends, so they know that if I'm playing, I know the name. Recently I was in the midst of a tune and realized that the piano accordion player beside me wasn't playing, and he was giving me a look that said he needed the name. And then the tune name -- which I'd known when I started playing -- completely evaporated from my mind! The tune stayed, though, and I was able to keep playing while in mental torment over trying to remember the name. The name didn't come back until after the tune was over. I'm sure that was an instance of trying too hard, as Will described so well.
I'm still new to this. I've only been learning Irish tunes for a little less than a year, and only have a little over a hundred Irish tunes in memory. When I think of the players I know who've been at this for decades and know many hundreds of tunes, I can think of at least one who seems to know the names of virtually everything he plays, and one who hardly seems to have names for anything. In general it seems that the experienced players can remember a tune enough to play it without remembering the name. It will be interesting to see if I become less name-dependent as I become more familiar with the tunes and with playing in a session setting.
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Yeah, Hesse was required reading back in my university days, and the newbie literature majors were sometimes called Hessians for the swooning they did over his books. But it's still a notch above Naked Lunch (which is a book title, not a personal invitation, although it would make a fine name for a slip jig....)
Zina, Hesse's books are far too inconsequential to be worth throwing across the room. You need Tolstoy or Dickens or Bellows, a tome with some heft to it, or you won't even leave a mark.
My point was this: tune names are verbal. If you expect to remember them, put them in your verbla memory banks. Tunes are 99.99999 percent aural; remember them that way. Practice both. If you're looking for shortcuts or magical mnemonic tricks, you're missing the point. And if, no matter how you try, you just can't recall tune names, quit worrying about it and just play.
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I have a problem with Father Kelly's. I know it very well, but whenever it gets played in session i have the feeling that "i know this tune from somewhere, but have no idea what it is". I usually join in just fine and much later, when the tune is long finished, i remember that it's Father Kelly's. The opposite happens with Maid Behind The Bar: i know the name immediatelly, but have a lot of trouble playing it. Go figure. Most of the time, i don't know the name of the stuff i'm playing (and don't care).
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That's the stuff, Glauber. For some reason, I *do* care about the names of tunes, but I honestly don't think it makes me at all a better player. Round about the time you come to know 6 reels 4 jigs, and 231 mazurkas called "Tommy Peoples'," you realize that it's far more important to just play the damn tunes.
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Zina, I double-checked my source (the booklet that goes along with the tune collection) and under #62 The Howling Wind Paddy O'Brian has stated "I rechristened the tune because it needed to be baptized with a more imaginative name". I think the new name reflects the character of the tune to the extent that this is one that is actually easy to remember.
Will, thanks for making your point clear about the difference of the audial and verbal memory . At sessions there is a natural focus on the audible part with a few comments on the names now and then over a guinness - and it seems plausible that the verbal memory needs additional workouts.
When playing I'm totally in the "audible sphere" and for me it is not essential to know the name of the tunes when having fun. However getting started can be a pain and it still seems a good idea to pay some attention to the connection between the audible and verbal spheres in order to ease the conscious recall of tunes and sets. With no shorcuts in sight it seems my verbal memory has a lot of jogging to do...
The Sidhartha mentioned sounds like "Zen" to me - a book that I'd recommend to any fiddler or musician who needs to losen up or are interested in the subject - is "Zen in the art of archery" - it was recommended to me by Steve Kecskemethy when I took a "stray" teaching lesson years back - and it has changed the way I approach playing/performing.
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Zen happened only after Bodidharma came from the West. Siddharta is about The Buddha (more or less). I like the "archery" book too; in the same vein, there's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", a truly outstanding book if you like philosophy (but too long if you don't).
One non-Buddhist book that influenced me in my approach to music is "For the Love of It: Amateuring and Its Rivals" by Wayne Booth. It's about... cello playing.
What's the place of the sound of one-hand-clapping in a session?
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It's someone with a drink in the other hand, Glauber.
That's interesting, Halldor -- thanks for the info! I'll have to re-visit the tune with the player who taught it to me and look infuriatingly smug as I tell him that Paddy wrote that he re-named it his very own sweet self!
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Glauber, I liked Wayne Booth's book and I didn't. I kept thinking how sad it is that the way trad music works is such a revelation to more formally trained musicians (even amateurs).
And don't get me started on Pirsig's book. I was an English student at Montana State in Bozeman, long enough ago to have teachers who were Pirsig's contemporaries. The book is true--I got to know Bob and Jenny DeWeese (mentioned in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle...), and they corroborate much of it. Goofy thing is, I ended up being the sole student advisor to the English dept. faculty on how to teach creative writing in other curricula. I got a taste of what Phaedrus went through....
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Glauber, there was that time I reached into a damp clothes dryer and inadvertently touched the back of the metal drum. Apparently it wasn't well grounded. I discovered that after I woke up. it blew the circuit breaker, and I had to patch the hole in the drywall 8 feet across the room, where my head completed its trajectory. I'm not sure, but the English department might've had something to do with it....
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Zina,
Someone with a drink in the other indeed! I laughed mightily at that! I am sure there's a Phd thesis awaiting.. "Zen and the art of diddleedee". I once tried to instill the zen idea into a spoons player once by telling him that he needed to practice with one spoon first and master that before moving on to two spoons. He didn't buy it!
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Will...I'm laughing at your post and remembering my whistle-playing neighbor. She'd broken a bulb off in the socket on her front porch and heard of the trick to get the bulb stub out. She stood on a chair and used a carved raw potato to remove the stub (you carve the potato to fit the task snugly, screw the potato into the lightbulb stub in the socket and unscrew the whole mess back out)...you guessed it...she didn't turn off the power first. Both she (now smoking) and her potato (now cooked) were shot off the porch into the yard. Strange thing...she became more musical and verbal than usual...invented new tunes (along with a new language) on the spot. Electrotherapy must be part of the package deal. Terrible me, I had trouble seeing if she was ok through my laughter.
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Will, before you jump into the dryer, try reading Sidhartha again. I liked your post about that. It sorta kinda made sense. I think my main problem with the tunes is I have only been playing for about two years, and I'm trying to force everything. I haven't finished the first seven years of the twenty-one-year pipe journey yet. I think I'll ask that Zen piper in the mountains about this - I think his name is Eric Olson? Anyway, please don't do the dryer thing. Shock therapy didn't really help Thelonius Monk at all.
Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
It's been on my "new year resolution list" for a decade, but still I haven't found a good way of dealing with it :
Are there any ways of improving how to map tunes to names and "getting the right tune started" - without reverting to written material or other aids?
I am a "believer" that learning the names can be useful - and hopefully worth the effort - as a way of pulling out tunes from your sleve when needed - and especially when leading the tunes/ set.
I don't know how it is with you guys, but I find it ten times harder - and more time consuming - to learn the name of a tune and put it on my "instant retrieval list" - than it is to learn the tune itself.
So, what's the trick - have any of you developed a smart way of making them names stick? Are other approaches more useful?
# Posted on January 11th 2003 by FiddleTramp
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
I love tune names and find it easy to remember them. I do keep a written list of all my tunes with me at sessions. Next to the name I put the key it's in and if it's a new tune or one I keep mixing up with a similar tune, I'll have the first 3 or 4 notes jotted down, cheat-sheet style. I can't do it without the written aid of my list, because at a session, I just go all blank, as far as what tunes I should play when someone asks me to start a set.
# Posted on January 11th 2003 by Andee
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I know a lot of people who use a method similar to Andee's. My biggest problem is that I seem to know a lot of tunes that have similar phrases..... ever start a tune and finish with another one.. duh. I do it all the time
# Posted on January 11th 2003 by ANNY
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Oh, well, this might help a bit, but don't count on it:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/176
# Posted on January 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
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Hey Zina, it really didn't help one little bit but it was a great read.
My habit of starting one tune and ending with another applies not just to Irish music... it's a clever thing my brain does on me that a phrase or even just a couple of notes will remind me of something else and off I go. I used to do it as a joke to my flute teacher. Made him crazy.
# Posted on January 11th 2003 by ANNY
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Last summer I was at a busy session at the Nova Scotia pub in Bristol (UK) and went to the bar in the next room to get a drink. Now there must have been about 30 players in that session and the acoustics of the place were such that if you were in the bar it was impossible to make out what tune that blast of sound coming out of the session room represented (not that it made much difference if you were actually in the session room!) Anyway, I was waiting the statutory 2 minutes 17.4 seconds for my pint of Guinness to be poured as per the rubrics when a cheerful inebriate wandered up to me and asked me the name of the tune that was playing. Not having the faintest idea of what was playing or even if it was indeed the same tune as when I had left the session room I said the first thing that came into my head which was "Sally Down By The Docks", a singularly apt (and fictitious) title bearing in mind that the Nova Scotia is a very old harbourside pub. Whereupon the cheerful inebriate thanked me profusely and meandered away out of this story and out of my life.
Now where was I? Oh yes. A problem with many Irish tunes is that the first one or even two bars are often indistinguishable, which is one reason why the person who starts a tune is sometimes playing on his own well into the A part until the other players work out what the tune is, which can sometimes be a little unnerving if you're the tune starter and you're not yet very experienced. Another problem is that most Irish tunes have many alternative names - look at almost any tune submitted on this site - and sometimes a single name is applied to more than one tune. And then there are quite a few "Gan Ainm" tunes - which means that the name is unknown. I've been to many sessions where tune names are never mentioned and if you ask what a tune is, and of course you might only find an opportunity to ask this question a few minutes after the tune has been played, then people try to be helpful but unfortunately often either genuinely don't know or can't remember.
I think the only conclusion you can draw from this situation is not to worry too much about tune names and to try out Andee's idea of keeping a little aide memoire of the first few notes of the tunes you know so that you can kick start them. I must remember to try it myself sometime. Thanks Andee!
trevor
# Posted on January 11th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Well, I can't remember my own phone number, or what I had for lunch today, or where I left my car keys, or what mnemonic means ( ;o), but for some reason (wholly unfathomable to me), I remember tune names. They just stick with the notes. I can play a tune without being able to recall the name right off (some people struggle with a tune unless they get the name in their head), but that's rarely a problem for me--the notes come out and the title pops into my head.
I honestly don't know how or why this happens. The best I can guess is that I connect to the tunes on an emotional level, sort of like to my family and a few close friends. I feel open or "vulnerable" to the tunes, and so their names and features are very significant to me.
# Posted on January 11th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
For those of us with "tefal" memory I think the aid of a little notebook will do most of the trick - thanks Andee!
) - this learning and skill seems connected to the love and desire in appreciating both the names and the tunes. Motivation is of course essential in the learning process.
And for those of you with the gift of getting them names right (how did I anticipate that Will would be one of them...
In Paddy O'Brians tune collection POBs ability to recall tunes is briefly mentioned, but it comes down to his statement "I dont't know. I just do it" He also connects emotions and feelings to tunes - to the extent that he renamed the "Tam Lin" into Howling wind (correct me if I'm wrong).
I think he somewhere has mentioned that he links his learning to the the learning process and the places / situations where he first heard / first learned the tunes. The few sets that I do have the ability to recall usually stems from such situations. (Workshops, the first place I heard the tunes and got the desire to learn them, etc.) This approach would however require additional creativity if I wanted to apply this to every new tune I rehearse in my loft (where I practice at night..)
# Posted on January 11th 2003 by FiddleTramp
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Funny, but I'd not thought too much about how I remember tunes, so have given it some thought and made some discoveries!!
I can't play a tune if I can't recall the name, even if I know I know it. I don't know it at all without the name. When someone says it's 'The Banshee' or whatever, I can then picture the notes, or feel the opening few bow strokes.
I really have to know a tune in my head all the way through like a picture of the notes, and be able to feel the bow direction and how I bow certain phrases. I didn't relaise that! So thanks for the prompt to make me think about it Halldor!! I think it'll be useful self knowledge.
Some tunes I do have to memorise the first few notes, and then I can easily muddle them up with other tunes, especially ones in E minor that are like the Peat Fire Flame.
# Posted on January 12th 2003 by Fiiddle R
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
I had already listened to the traditional music (mainly on the CDs) for two years and remembered the names and melodies of many tunes when I picked up the whistle. Even if I don't remember the name of the tunes, I know who recorded on which album.
So I recommend you to collect and record the sets of the tunes you like on the tape or MD from CDs or actual sessions and listen again and again. If you forget the names, refer to the liner notes of the recordings or ask somebody. Sometimes no one cannot name them, though....
# Posted on January 12th 2003 by slainte
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
This might not work with all tunes but it certainly works for me in many of them.
I find a phrase in the tune where I think the words of title might be sung. When I'm practising, I sing the title in my head at the appropriate point.
Here's a couple of examples... "Roll Her in the Ryegrass" I remember from the closing notes in each part. "Swinging on the Gate" has a starting phrase and an ending phrase where I can sing the title in my head.
# Posted on January 12th 2003 by Gael Force
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Halldor, I think Howling Wind was called Howling Wind before Paddy called it that -- could be wrong about that, but I got that impression from the player I learned the tune from. Anybody got a definitive on that? I suppose we could write Paddy and ask him.
Zina
# Posted on January 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
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I just want to add my name to the list of contributors who find that they cannot start a tune, even when they know that they know it, until they can recall the name. This can be so frustrating at a session when finally, after three hours waiting to recognise a tune, one you play comes up and you can't get started on it because you've forgotten the name. So glad it's not just me!
Paul Moclair
# Posted on January 12th 2003 by sergeant fox
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
I HATE it when that happens!!
# Posted on January 12th 2003 by Andee
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
I have just the opposite problem of Paul. Somebody asks me to start a tune - using the name, then I can't remember how to start it. Once I hear the first two or three bars in the tune, the whole tune comes to me. Attaching the name to the tune is terribly difficult, though. I have to work very hard at it. My best method is typing the names into my Palm Pilot, and jotting down the first four bars in ABC. Then I have a little ABC player that will play the tunes. I use this as a study aid. I spend painful hours at home trying to force my reluctant mind to remember the start of a tune, given the name. If I can't get it in a few seconds, I hit the play button. I use the Palm Pilot like flash cards, and I swear that recalling the tunes by the names is as difficult as memorizing the multiplication table was. If anybody knows a less painful way, then please tell me.
Oh, and I find it strange that if I first hear a tune, I have no problem remembering the name. It's just the other direction that gives me trouble.
# Posted on January 12th 2003 by dirk
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
So, Dirk, you don't go both ways? *grin* Sometimes I remember the tune. Sometimes I don't. There doesn't seem to be any reason for either way.
Zina
# Posted on January 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
How many times has it happened to me? I am up on stage and I forget the names of the tunes. It's a little entertaining to the audience when I say for instance that Maho Snaps is first, Whatchamacallit is second and I haven't a clue is third.
I don't mind that problem as much as I mind forgetting how a tune starts. Take this last session. BarrowBurn was a blank in my head. Paddy Ryan's dream took a while while I remembered the b part first and had to run it though my head. Not till I got to the last note did I finally remember the A part. From that point on - we had a very good set.
Andee's suggestion works great if you keep on top of it. I had another friend who kept her act together by using one of those tiny loose leaf notebooks (1/4 page). She reduced her music and put it in the notebook. When she knew that the music was forever unforgettable, she moved it to name and starting notes only section.
As for me - I was thinking a brain transplant would work just fine.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Mark Cordova
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
In Siddhartha (modern literary bible to 20-somethings seeking the meaning of life), Herman Hesse builds a novel around the Govinda syndrome: looking so hard for something that you can't see it when it is in front of you.
, and by the time the missing link comes around again, I've forgotten that I forgot it last time, and it just falls into place, part of the natural stream of the tune.
I wonder if that's at work here for some people. We want so badly to have instant recall of the notes and the tune names that our intensified concentration actually intereferes with our ability to remember, play, or speak the names.
I bring this up only because of my own experience in playing the tunes--I can almost always remember how a tune starts, but if I goof up a phrase that comes later in the tune, then I start to panic as it comes around again--will I get it right this time?! How does it go? WHY CAN'T I REMEMBER!!!??? and sure enough I'll choke on it again. I've found it's much more effective to repeat my "effortless" mantra and get inside the tune (assuming that I'm on the part that I *do* remember
Having this happen (at first, thanks to the anti-anxiety effects of an overdose of porter) convinced me that my conscious mind is what causes the forgetfullness. Relax and the names and notes will come to you. Get uptight about it, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Time also makes a difference. If you live with these tunes for 20-30 years, they tend to hover close to the surface, even when you're doing other things. Being a writer and compulsive list maker, I made it a habit to also live with the *names* of tunes. For my personally jumbled blend of learning styles, it also helped me to transcribe all the tunes I know--initially I wrote 'em down as a way to pass them on to friends. But then I got into it and the simple act of notating a tune is a reinforcement of the aural input and often helps me recall it, without having to refer back to the actual sheet music. So I always write the name of the tune, composer if known, and my source on the top of the page the notes are on. Just another way to link all the info together, so it comes back out more or less in one piece.
Incidentally, it makes much more sense to me to think of writing, reading, listening to, and playing music as all complementary, mutually reinforcing approaches to the tunes than somehow mutually exclusive.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
So if I eat bananas & become a ferryman I'll remember all the tune names?
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by B Rad
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Whoooooooooooosh! (That's the sound of the joke going waaaaay over my head....) -- ?!!?!? --
zls
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
WILL HARMON FOR PRESIDENT!!!!
I have no idea what your last statement meant, However, You could answer 5 or 6 press questions with the same statement.
Let me know how it works Brad ;)
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Mark Cordova
The joke
Zina, you'll have to read the book (Sidharta). In German if possible.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by glauber
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Aaaaaaaaaaugh! I don't DO Herman Hesse. Don't despise me for it, but I guess I'm too shallow and epheremal to read Hesse and take him seriously (he does such a good job of taking himself seriously) -- after about fifteen minutes of reading I want to throw the book across the room. ("Get to the point!") I remember reading a parody of one of his books and it went on and on about following someone up the mountains and never being able to find him, and it didn't seem all that different from the original to me! It reminds me of some of the high-falutin' cocktail parties I used to have to go to for theatre functions.
Let's see -- what did I read last night that struck me? Something like: it is the nature of all Ways that one never knows who the teacher will be or where the teacher will be found.
Zina
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
H.H
Sidharta is a little better (i.e.: shorter) in this respect, than Magister Ludi (sp?). But alternatively, just go to the tunes session and post a couple of German polkas. The titles have to be in German, for this to work, but then it's guaranteed to get you at least some enlightment, no bodhi tree required.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by glauber
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
*snort* As if you and Will and Brad and Bridie and Eric and et al don't do a fine job of keeping me enlightened, or at least reined in.
zls
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
It's interesting to learn that some others have the same problem I do: even when I KNOW I know a tune, I can't play it unless I remember the name. Usually when I hear the first bit of a tune, the name pops into my head and at the same time my hands know where to go to play the notes. Sometimes the recognition takes longer than other times, and unfortunately it isn't uncommon for me to listen all the way through once (or even more!), thinking "I know this -- what IS it?".
I've mentioned this tune name thing of mine to my session friends, so they know that if I'm playing, I know the name. Recently I was in the midst of a tune and realized that the piano accordion player beside me wasn't playing, and he was giving me a look that said he needed the name. And then the tune name -- which I'd known when I started playing -- completely evaporated from my mind! The tune stayed, though, and I was able to keep playing while in mental torment over trying to remember the name. The name didn't come back until after the tune was over. I'm sure that was an instance of trying too hard, as Will described so well.
I'm still new to this. I've only been learning Irish tunes for a little less than a year, and only have a little over a hundred Irish tunes in memory. When I think of the players I know who've been at this for decades and know many hundreds of tunes, I can think of at least one who seems to know the names of virtually everything he plays, and one who hardly seems to have names for anything. In general it seems that the experienced players can remember a tune enough to play it without remembering the name. It will be interesting to see if I become less name-dependent as I become more familiar with the tunes and with playing in a session setting.
Sarah
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by x
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Yeah, Hesse was required reading back in my university days, and the newbie literature majors were sometimes called Hessians for the swooning they did over his books. But it's still a notch above Naked Lunch (which is a book title, not a personal invitation, although it would make a fine name for a slip jig....)
Zina, Hesse's books are far too inconsequential to be worth throwing across the room. You need Tolstoy or Dickens or Bellows, a tome with some heft to it, or you won't even leave a mark.
My point was this: tune names are verbal. If you expect to remember them, put them in your verbla memory banks. Tunes are 99.99999 percent aural; remember them that way. Practice both. If you're looking for shortcuts or magical mnemonic tricks, you're missing the point. And if, no matter how you try, you just can't recall tune names, quit worrying about it and just play.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
...and into your *verbal* memory too (four doze of ewe hoo ken theenc dat weigh).
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
I have a problem with Father Kelly's. I know it very well, but whenever it gets played in session i have the feeling that "i know this tune from somewhere, but have no idea what it is". I usually join in just fine and much later, when the tune is long finished, i remember that it's Father Kelly's. The opposite happens with Maid Behind The Bar: i know the name immediatelly, but have a lot of trouble playing it. Go figure. Most of the time, i don't know the name of the stuff i'm playing (and don't care).
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by glauber
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
That's the stuff, Glauber. For some reason, I *do* care about the names of tunes, but I honestly don't think it makes me at all a better player. Round about the time you come to know 6 reels 4 jigs, and 231 mazurkas called "Tommy Peoples'," you realize that it's far more important to just play the damn tunes.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Zina, I double-checked my source (the booklet that goes along with the tune collection) and under #62 The Howling Wind Paddy O'Brian has stated "I rechristened the tune because it needed to be baptized with a more imaginative name". I think the new name reflects the character of the tune to the extent that this is one that is actually easy to remember.
Will, thanks for making your point clear about the difference of the audial and verbal memory . At sessions there is a natural focus on the audible part with a few comments on the names now and then over a guinness - and it seems plausible that the verbal memory needs additional workouts.
When playing I'm totally in the "audible sphere" and for me it is not essential to know the name of the tunes when having fun. However getting started can be a pain and it still seems a good idea to pay some attention to the connection between the audible and verbal spheres in order to ease the conscious recall of tunes and sets. With no shorcuts in sight it seems my verbal memory has a lot of jogging to do...
The Sidhartha mentioned sounds like "Zen" to me - a book that I'd recommend to any fiddler or musician who needs to losen up or are interested in the subject - is "Zen in the art of archery" - it was recommended to me by Steve Kecskemethy when I took a "stray" teaching lesson years back - and it has changed the way I approach playing/performing.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by FiddleTramp
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Zen happened only after Bodidharma came from the West. Siddharta is about The Buddha (more or less).
I like the "archery" book too; in the same vein, there's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", a truly outstanding book if you like philosophy (but too long if you don't).
One non-Buddhist book that influenced me in my approach to music is "For the Love of It: Amateuring and Its Rivals" by Wayne Booth. It's about... cello playing.
What's the place of the sound of one-hand-clapping in a session?
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by glauber
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
It's someone with a drink in the other hand, Glauber.
That's interesting, Halldor -- thanks for the info! I'll have to re-visit the tune with the player who taught it to me and look infuriatingly smug as I tell him that Paddy wrote that he re-named it his very own sweet self!
Zina
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Glauber, I liked Wayne Booth's book and I didn't. I kept thinking how sad it is that the way trad music works is such a revelation to more formally trained musicians (even amateurs).
And don't get me started on Pirsig's book. I was an English student at Montana State in Bozeman, long enough ago to have teachers who were Pirsig's contemporaries. The book is true--I got to know Bob and Jenny DeWeese (mentioned in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle...), and they corroborate much of it. Goofy thing is, I ended up being the sole student advisor to the English dept. faculty on how to teach creative writing in other curricula. I got a taste of what Phaedrus went through....
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
But hopefully not the zap through the brain lobes. Yikes!
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by glauber
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
So Zina, the sound of one hand clapping is "slurp, slurp, slurp..." ?
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
heh. Probably more like, clink clank clink, of a coin or ring against the pint glass, don't you think?
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Or the dieselly growl as someone leans into driving the porcelain bus, *snicker*
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Glauber, there was that time I reached into a damp clothes dryer and inadvertently touched the back of the metal drum. Apparently it wasn't well grounded. I discovered that after I woke up. it blew the circuit breaker, and I had to patch the hole in the drywall 8 feet across the room, where my head completed its trajectory. I'm not sure, but the English department might've had something to do with it....
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Zina,
Someone with a drink in the other indeed! I laughed mightily at that! I am sure there's a Phd thesis awaiting.. "Zen and the art of diddleedee". I once tried to instill the zen idea into a spoons player once by telling him that he needed to practice with one spoon first and master that before moving on to two spoons. He didn't buy it!
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by milesnagopaleen
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
LOL -- oh, well done, Miles -- bb, you're going to have to try that on your mum, what do you think?!
zls
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Will...I'm laughing at your post and remembering my whistle-playing neighbor. She'd broken a bulb off in the socket on her front porch and heard of the trick to get the bulb stub out. She stood on a chair and used a carved raw potato to remove the stub (you carve the potato to fit the task snugly, screw the potato into the lightbulb stub in the socket and unscrew the whole mess back out)...you guessed it...she didn't turn off the power first. Both she (now smoking) and her potato (now cooked) were shot off the porch into the yard. Strange thing...she became more musical and verbal than usual...invented new tunes (along with a new language) on the spot. Electrotherapy must be part of the package deal. Terrible me, I had trouble seeing if she was ok through my laughter.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by katiebythegate
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Careful now, or I'll go jumping wet and starkers into my clothes dryer so I can become more musical....
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Remembering name of tunes and how they start...
Will, before you jump into the dryer, try reading Sidhartha again. I liked your post about that. It sorta kinda made sense. I think my main problem with the tunes is I have only been playing for about two years, and I'm trying to force everything. I haven't finished the first seven years of the twenty-one-year pipe journey yet. I think I'll ask that Zen piper in the mountains about this - I think his name is Eric Olson? Anyway, please don't do the dryer thing. Shock therapy didn't really help Thelonius Monk at all.
# Posted on January 13th 2003 by dirk