The Session >> Discussions >> Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
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Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
I have a perverse desire to submit the odd tune written in Eb or Bb (I mean written in these keys, not tweaked up from D or A by some contemporary band). How should one submit an Eb tune? Submit it in D with a notice at the top that it's actually in Eb? Pick some suitable key on the menu and use that one, adding / naturalising sharps and flats? - F Major, perhaps, for Eb and Bb, banging in some extra flats?
I would welcome any info on what is the accepted procedure here. A few people must have asked similar questions, and / or submitted such tunes.
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
I don't really know but submitting it in "D" or whatever might be a good idea. You could also type in the "ABC" in the comments section with the correct key as an alternative. Then, the members could copy and paste the tune for themselves. It would then be easy to convert into sheet music with the "Tune converter" or other software.
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
From the pull-down menu, Cdorian would give the correct number of flats in the sheetmusic for Bb and Fdorian would work for Eb. You'd then clarify the key in your comments at the same time you post the tune.
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
I would say get rid of all conotations of major or minor keys, Irish music is modal not tonal so the website should allow for keys to be submitted in all proper modes including Ionian and Aeolian the modal names for major and minor. Some tunes use the Lydian mode and some are in what you would call pentatonic or hexatonic modes so those should all be allowed for too, but I suppose this is all likely to confuse all those people who want to lazily say that a tune is in one particular key as defined by Western classical music theory.
Right, rant over! Overall though, I agree Bb and Eb should be allowed because some tunes were written in those keys originally, particularly Bb.
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
Dinna moan fribee!!
Gordon Duncan's tune The Belly Dancer is apparently in E Phrygian - not a common mode in traditional music and certainly not in Pipe music - would that be addable - if someone had the inclination (and could play it - rules me out)
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
As ever, David's suggestion gives a simple and effective solution to a difficult problem. Arguments as to key or mode are best left to the Comments because for many tunes it is no easy matter to determine what key or mode is involved. How for instance do you define the key for a tune that starts quite definitely in one key or mode and equally definitely finished in another?
David's suggestion matches up with a common session practice where someone calls out "two sharps", and everyone is expected to use their ears and brains to work out whether it is a major or minor key or a mode.
While we're on the subject of keys and modes there is a third minor scale in addition to the melodic and harmonic minors beloved of piano teachers. It is the "Hungarian" minor scale as used by Franz Liszt. In C it would be C - D - Eflat - F# - G - Aflat - Bnat - c. I'm looking forward to when Dow takes up the challenge and writes a tune in Hungarian minor
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
I don't think the suggested solution of indicating the number of sharps or flats would work -- the reason being that you have to submit tunes in abc notation, and abc software (at least the packages I'm familiar with) requires a key/mode designation, not a count of the sharps or flats.
I think the best solution would be for this site to begin allowing some of the less common keys like Eb.
One suggestion above was to use a "fake" key like Fdorian to simulate Eb major. I think that's a bad idea because it gives the wrong picture of the tune. Unfortunately, the practice of using whatever key gives the right end-result (in terms of the sharps or flats) is rampant on this and other abc sites.
Use of fake keys diminishes the value of the notation. For example: Last week I was looking for a tune to complete a set. Thinking that a G reel would sound good, I looked in my tunebook on this site to get some ideas. Well, one of the "G major" reels I found there was Sporting Paddy -- a tune that's inarguably A dorian, not G major. And the next time I'm looking for an A dorian tune, I mght overlook Sporting Paddy because it's filed in the wrong place.
Although I'm not a guitar player, I know that the backers I play with want to know the real key. If someone starts an unfamiliar tune, they can call out "A dorian" and our session's guitar player will know where to start and can usually fake it reasonably well from there. If someone instead called out "G" for the same tune, we'd have a disaster on our hands.
lazyhound asked: "How for instance do you define the key for a tune that starts quite definitely in one key or mode and equally definitely finished in another?" My answer is that the key designation should always reflect the start of the tune -- because that's the information that will be most useful to a backer.
Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
I have a perverse desire to submit the odd tune written in Eb or Bb (I mean written in these keys, not tweaked up from D or A by some contemporary band). How should one submit an Eb tune? Submit it in D with a notice at the top that it's actually in Eb? Pick some suitable key on the menu and use that one, adding / naturalising sharps and flats? - F Major, perhaps, for Eb and Bb, banging in some extra flats?
I would welcome any info on what is the accepted procedure here. A few people must have asked similar questions, and / or submitted such tunes.
# Posted on January 27th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
I don't really know but submitting it in "D" or whatever might be a good idea. You could also type in the "ABC" in the comments section with the correct key as an alternative. Then, the members could copy and paste the tune for themselves. It would then be easy to convert into sheet music with the "Tune converter" or other software.
# Posted on January 27th 2007 by John J.
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
From the pull-down menu, Cdorian would give the correct number of flats in the sheetmusic for Bb and Fdorian would work for Eb. You'd then clarify the key in your comments at the same time you post the tune.
# Posted on January 27th 2007 by ʎɹoʇısuɐɹʇ
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
If you can post in C Dorian and F dorian why not Eb and Bb?? Why aren't they in the drop down list?
# Posted on January 27th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
I would love to see tunes in Eb and Bb available. The're some of my favorites.
Mary
# Posted on January 27th 2007 by Antikhntr
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
I would say get rid of all conotations of major or minor keys, Irish music is modal not tonal so the website should allow for keys to be submitted in all proper modes including Ionian and Aeolian the modal names for major and minor. Some tunes use the Lydian mode and some are in what you would call pentatonic or hexatonic modes so those should all be allowed for too, but I suppose this is all likely to confuse all those people who want to lazily say that a tune is in one particular key as defined by Western classical music theory.
Right, rant over! Overall though, I agree Bb and Eb should be allowed because some tunes were written in those keys originally, particularly Bb.
# Posted on January 27th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
when i say written in those keys i do of course mean Bb Ionian not Bb Major etc!
# Posted on January 27th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
Dinna moan fribee!!
Gordon Duncan's tune The Belly Dancer is apparently in E Phrygian - not a common mode in traditional music and certainly not in Pipe music - would that be addable - if someone had the inclination (and could play it - rules me out)
# Posted on January 27th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
As ever, David's suggestion gives a simple and effective solution to a difficult problem. Arguments as to key or mode are best left to the Comments because for many tunes it is no easy matter to determine what key or mode is involved. How for instance do you define the key for a tune that starts quite definitely in one key or mode and equally definitely finished in another?
David's suggestion matches up with a common session practice where someone calls out "two sharps", and everyone is expected to use their ears and brains to work out whether it is a major or minor key or a mode.
While we're on the subject of keys and modes there is a third minor scale in addition to the melodic and harmonic minors beloved of piano teachers. It is the "Hungarian" minor scale as used by Franz Liszt. In C it would be C - D - Eflat - F# - G - Aflat - Bnat - c. I'm looking forward to when Dow takes up the challenge and writes a tune in Hungarian minor
# Posted on January 27th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
I don't think the suggested solution of indicating the number of sharps or flats would work -- the reason being that you have to submit tunes in abc notation, and abc software (at least the packages I'm familiar with) requires a key/mode designation, not a count of the sharps or flats.
I think the best solution would be for this site to begin allowing some of the less common keys like Eb.
One suggestion above was to use a "fake" key like Fdorian to simulate Eb major. I think that's a bad idea because it gives the wrong picture of the tune. Unfortunately, the practice of using whatever key gives the right end-result (in terms of the sharps or flats) is rampant on this and other abc sites.
Use of fake keys diminishes the value of the notation. For example: Last week I was looking for a tune to complete a set. Thinking that a G reel would sound good, I looked in my tunebook on this site to get some ideas. Well, one of the "G major" reels I found there was Sporting Paddy -- a tune that's inarguably A dorian, not G major. And the next time I'm looking for an A dorian tune, I mght overlook Sporting Paddy because it's filed in the wrong place.
Although I'm not a guitar player, I know that the backers I play with want to know the real key. If someone starts an unfamiliar tune, they can call out "A dorian" and our session's guitar player will know where to start and can usually fake it reasonably well from there. If someone instead called out "G" for the same tune, we'd have a disaster on our hands.
lazyhound asked: "How for instance do you define the key for a tune that starts quite definitely in one key or mode and equally definitely finished in another?" My answer is that the key designation should always reflect the start of the tune -- because that's the information that will be most useful to a backer.
# Posted on January 28th 2007 by boxist
Re: Submitting tunes in keys not covered by The Session's tune range
Good points, especially the answer to my question about how to define the key of a multi-key tune. Thank you.
# Posted on January 29th 2007 by Trevor Jennings