I don't know what it is like elsewhere, but round here sessions and folk clubs are two entirely seperate entities. Also, there seems to be a degree of antipathy between the two camps. Or even where you get those "circle of death" round robin singing/instrumental "sessions" where you wait your turn then sing/play your 3-minutes worth. Really boring for players who want to be playing all the time, or at least listening to other peoples' tunes. Also singers at music sessions usually are players who throw in the odd song now and again, or if purely singers have to wait ages just to squeeze in a song between tunes. If you are a player and turn up at a folk club, the mirror image of that is your fate. You lug your instrument 10 miles or so just to get a few minutes playing in.
So I can see why these are different beasts but does it have to be so? Is this just a SE London phenomenon or can someone say hand on heart that their gatherings are truly mixed and egalitarian in this respect?
Greenwiggle started a thread a few years ago about the leaves of the Shamrock being brought back together again - he was asking more about dancers AND singers at *sessions*. This query is a bit different, though. Round here folk clubs and sessions are really quite distinct kettles of bananas.
I would say that playing at a "Folk Club" is a performance (generally there is "best of order") whereas playing at a session is not (I could hardly say anything else here, even if I think differently). So they are different "bunches of fish". I regularly go to both. At the Folk Club there are definitely more songs than tunes. At sessions, quite rightly, it is the other way round.
I have to agree that sing/play arounds are pretty dire affairs. there is no spontaneity and the singers, who have waited three hours for their turn, invariably sing their "best" song - a twenty-three verse slow ballad. I regularly have to be stretchered away from sing arounds having become comatose.
What I like are mixed sessions where you don't know what is coming next and where anyone can join in (within reason) whether it is a set of tunes or a song.
Having played both sides of the field, I would agree that there is, generally, a different objective.
Folk Clubs are there to book good folk groups, singers, songwriters, etc and to provide a concert venue for their wares. The session is much more about self fulfillment and escaping the day to day.
Some Folk Clubs [including the Old Downpatrick and Pure Dop Folk Clubs] catered for both sorts on different nights and that seemed to work pretty well.
But in the end the are different animals and probably best kep that way
"It's 'cause folkies go to folk clubs, and ordinary regular types go to sessions."
Well, I don't think any of us here could be described as "ordinary regular types"
I know what Llig means though. However, tune players will happily go along to a folk club if their band is either booked for the night, want to do a support spot or, perhaps, even if there's someone there they want to see.
There are different types of folk clubs. Some mainly concentrate on promoting concerts, others are singaround/floor spot/circle of death scenarios which tend to favour singers and others can be a mixture of both.
You can also get singers who set up their own sessions but they're not as we know it. They're not that keen on folk clubs either..."the singers, who have waited three hours for their turn, invariably sing their "best" song - a twenty-three verse slow ballad" scenario is very accurate description.
In the beginning, folk clubs tended to be known as "Folk SONG clubs" and people talked about going out to listen to the "folk singing". Thus, they are still regarded by many in this way including many of the regular members who get upset if they book too many instrumental acts. A large number of folk clubs acts are instrumental(or predominantly so) these days and, while they will still draw an audience(often quite large), a lot of the regulars might not enjoy it.
Anyway, to sum up, I agree that sessions(Tunes or otherwise) should be separate from folk clubs. In the larger towns, the latter will inevitably be more of a concert format. However, in rural areas, it is much more informal and the distinction between folk clubs and sessions is much more blurred.
Who's that calling me ORDINAIRY ? Who'll tread on the tail of me coat ? Go outside and shake yourself !
Actually I go to both, and although the crowd may be smaller at the session, I do much enjoy its camaraderie.
The danger is when someone from the folk club comes to a session and expects it to run like the venue they are more familiar with (and vice versa).
Two separate sub-cultures, with two different sets of values!!!
In Edinburgh, those who run and attend the local folk club(s) are generally well aware of the difference between a folk club and a session. As I said earlier, a lot of people will frequent both but they know what is expected.
Problems are most likely to arise when singers and those who frequent these "circle" set ups (They refer to these arrangements as sessions too) clash with musicans at regular tune sessions or vice versa. Even more so, when it's a mixed session.... which seldom works.
Some singers can be quite devious at folk festivals for instance. Instead of going to the "singers' bar", they will often try to infiltrate a tune session and do the "odd song". This way, they can actually "get more songs in" than they would in a singaround!!
A lot of the old style folk clubs and some in rural areas today are/were more like singing sessions or informal performances by regulars. Those who attend looser arrangements such as these are more likely to get confused between folk clubs and sessions.
I'm a bit of an oddment in that I go to all as described above.
Folk clubs to see the odd band and do a floor spot ( to gain experience in the performance and the talk to the audience), song sessions to listen for new songs and gain from the response of other singers but they do tend to be either chorus or singer song writer top heavy. I even do an invited unaccompanied singers group where we can do what ever we want rather than be constrained by the attention limits of the other groups. Yes I do have long ballads - only 11 verses - it just seems longer.
But most of all I lke to go to largely tunse sessions where I can be part of the music, diddle along along and contrinute the odd song if the time is right.
I would deny that singers go to tune sessions to get more songs than they would at a singaround - Its to get the variety and the feedback from the music you love. You have to be able to read tha balance of a session. If its yours then watch how it is progressing and let the music run if the flow is with it and its not yours, make yourself know as a singer but wait to be asked . Sometimes you may sing one song in an evening sometimes 5 or 6. Problems are more often caused by punters having heard one song, wanting more when the balance should be back to the tunes.
Of course we did try and run our folk club gig last Thursday a wee bit more like a session as I knew the audience well and could wind them up - teaching them to hekle. Lovely informal evening.
So merit in everything - good evenings at all - live and let live and conform to the balance of the evening. I do believe that good mixed sessions work but you have to listen far more than you participate
and please show up to my sessions if you are in a the area
Our local session started as a tune session for people to play together and learn new tunes, then gradually attracted more singers, to the point where the balance was two sets of tunes to one song. Then the number of guitars and other accompanying instruments grew. Then a lot of the better musicians went elsewhere, and without the core of solid music, the singers and audience departed too. So now we are back to where we were 5 years ago, with a small group of musicians and an even smaller audience. We can play our music and hear ourselves again.
Also, the general consensus here seems to be that folk clubs are "for singers". This is becoming much less the case, although this notion dies hard.
For example, the programmes for Edinburgh and Leith Folk Clubs in January (this month) feature
The Whistlebinkies
Jenna Reid Trio
Mike and Ali Vass
Shona Mooney Band
Anna Massie Band
Tom McConville with Aaron Jones
Rory Campbell, Jonny Hardie and Donald Hay
All of these acts perform predominantly(in some cases entirely) instrumental sets.
I agree with you, John J, those "unaccomplished" singers are a bloody devious lot. If they start singing an inappropriate song (i.e., a ballad) at a session you could always join in and force them to sing the whole song in the same key (and in time).
At my local folk club we have guests every third night (that's every third night we meet). The guests are predominantly singers but we do have players as well. When we don't have a guest then anything goes - it just depends who turns up. However, we don't sit round in a tight circle trying to exclude the person with the rain stick. If that is his/her bag, we suffer it (up to a point).
Both the sessions I "run" ( that's a loose term, especially at my advanced age ) have enough space and cool to admit singers with or without guitars, especially if they have enough nous to take their turn and pass it on.
Also people drop in from the other end of the bar, one pair being a couple of old mates who'll give us a couple of what I suspect are irish music-hall songs.
I've still not yet met a rain-stick player at a session - I suspect this is an urban myth. Shaky eggs are used with some subtelty at a mixed session I attend.
Meanwhile my local folk-club has changed to a miked performance style, with floor-singers by appointment, chiefly because it's now in an open public area in the local Arts Depot. I'm happy with this insofar as I'm getting a prime spot, but I also feel it does go against the idea of anyone being able to stand up from the floor and perform, and I feel that this was an essential part of the folk-club movement, even if it could sometimes be painful as beginners learnt their craft.
Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
I don't know what it is like elsewhere, but round here sessions and folk clubs are two entirely seperate entities. Also, there seems to be a degree of antipathy between the two camps. Or even where you get those "circle of death" round robin singing/instrumental "sessions" where you wait your turn then sing/play your 3-minutes worth. Really boring for players who want to be playing all the time, or at least listening to other peoples' tunes. Also singers at music sessions usually are players who throw in the odd song now and again, or if purely singers have to wait ages just to squeeze in a song between tunes. If you are a player and turn up at a folk club, the mirror image of that is your fate. You lug your instrument 10 miles or so just to get a few minutes playing in.
So I can see why these are different beasts but does it have to be so? Is this just a SE London phenomenon or can someone say hand on heart that their gatherings are truly mixed and egalitarian in this respect?
Greenwiggle started a thread a few years ago about the leaves of the Shamrock being brought back together again - he was asking more about dancers AND singers at *sessions*. This query is a bit different, though. Round here folk clubs and sessions are really quite distinct kettles of bananas.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
It's 'cause folkies go to folk clubs, and ordinary regular types go to sessions.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
I would say that playing at a "Folk Club" is a performance (generally there is "best of order") whereas playing at a session is not (I could hardly say anything else here, even if I think differently). So they are different "bunches of fish". I regularly go to both. At the Folk Club there are definitely more songs than tunes. At sessions, quite rightly, it is the other way round.
I have to agree that sing/play arounds are pretty dire affairs. there is no spontaneity and the singers, who have waited three hours for their turn, invariably sing their "best" song - a twenty-three verse slow ballad. I regularly have to be stretchered away from sing arounds having become comatose.
What I like are mixed sessions where you don't know what is coming next and where anyone can join in (within reason) whether it is a set of tunes or a song.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by DonaldK
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
Having played both sides of the field, I would agree that there is, generally, a different objective.
Folk Clubs are there to book good folk groups, singers, songwriters, etc and to provide a concert venue for their wares. The session is much more about self fulfillment and escaping the day to day.
Some Folk Clubs [including the Old Downpatrick and Pure Dop Folk Clubs] catered for both sorts on different nights and that seemed to work pretty well.
But in the end the are different animals and probably best kep that way
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by breandan
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
"It's 'cause folkies go to folk clubs, and ordinary regular types go to sessions."
Well, I don't think any of us here could be described as "ordinary regular types"
I know what Llig means though. However, tune players will happily go along to a folk club if their band is either booked for the night, want to do a support spot or, perhaps, even if there's someone there they want to see.
There are different types of folk clubs. Some mainly concentrate on promoting concerts, others are singaround/floor spot/circle of death scenarios which tend to favour singers and others can be a mixture of both.
You can also get singers who set up their own sessions but they're not as we know it. They're not that keen on folk clubs either..."the singers, who have waited three hours for their turn, invariably sing their "best" song - a twenty-three verse slow ballad" scenario is very accurate description.
In the beginning, folk clubs tended to be known as "Folk SONG clubs" and people talked about going out to listen to the "folk singing". Thus, they are still regarded by many in this way including many of the regular members who get upset if they book too many instrumental acts. A large number of folk clubs acts are instrumental(or predominantly so) these days and, while they will still draw an audience(often quite large), a lot of the regulars might not enjoy it.
Anyway, to sum up, I agree that sessions(Tunes or otherwise) should be separate from folk clubs. In the larger towns, the latter will inevitably be more of a concert format. However, in rural areas, it is much more informal and the distinction between folk clubs and sessions is much more blurred.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by John J.
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
A folk club usually had a resident artiste, and singers, and every now and then a named act. You got up in front of everyone and played.
Sessions just sit down and play, much less organised, or should be.
Folk clubs in England used to be great, people actually listened. Little chance of that happening here.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
Who's that calling me ORDINAIRY ? Who'll tread on the tail of me coat ? Go outside and shake yourself !
Actually I go to both, and although the crowd may be smaller at the session, I do much enjoy its camaraderie.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
The danger is when someone from the folk club comes to a session and expects it to run like the venue they are more familiar with (and vice versa).
Two separate sub-cultures, with two different sets of values!!!
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
In Edinburgh, those who run and attend the local folk club(s) are generally well aware of the difference between a folk club and a session. As I said earlier, a lot of people will frequent both but they know what is expected.
Problems are most likely to arise when singers and those who frequent these "circle" set ups (They refer to these arrangements as sessions too) clash with musicans at regular tune sessions or vice versa. Even more so, when it's a mixed session.... which seldom works.
Some singers can be quite devious at folk festivals for instance. Instead of going to the "singers' bar", they will often try to infiltrate a tune session and do the "odd song". This way, they can actually "get more songs in" than they would in a singaround!!
A lot of the old style folk clubs and some in rural areas today are/were more like singing sessions or informal performances by regulars. Those who attend looser arrangements such as these are more likely to get confused between folk clubs and sessions.
# Posted on January 22nd 2007 by John J.
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
I'm a bit of an oddment in that I go to all as described above.
Folk clubs to see the odd band and do a floor spot ( to gain experience in the performance and the talk to the audience), song sessions to listen for new songs and gain from the response of other singers but they do tend to be either chorus or singer song writer top heavy. I even do an invited unaccompanied singers group where we can do what ever we want rather than be constrained by the attention limits of the other groups. Yes I do have long ballads - only 11 verses - it just seems longer.
But most of all I lke to go to largely tunse sessions where I can be part of the music, diddle along along and contrinute the odd song if the time is right.
I would deny that singers go to tune sessions to get more songs than they would at a singaround - Its to get the variety and the feedback from the music you love. You have to be able to read tha balance of a session. If its yours then watch how it is progressing and let the music run if the flow is with it and its not yours, make yourself know as a singer but wait to be asked . Sometimes you may sing one song in an evening sometimes 5 or 6. Problems are more often caused by punters having heard one song, wanting more when the balance should be back to the tunes.
Of course we did try and run our folk club gig last Thursday a wee bit more like a session as I knew the audience well and could wind them up - teaching them to hekle. Lovely informal evening.
So merit in everything - good evenings at all - live and let live and conform to the balance of the evening. I do believe that good mixed sessions work but you have to listen far more than you participate
and please show up to my sessions if you are in a the area
J
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by jfother
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
I enjoy my weekly session (tunes) ....
and also an open mike (songs) put on by a local folk club.
The people of both groups are a blast to jam with!
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by morning star
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
Our local session started as a tune session for people to play together and learn new tunes, then gradually attracted more singers, to the point where the balance was two sets of tunes to one song. Then the number of guitars and other accompanying instruments grew. Then a lot of the better musicians went elsewhere, and without the core of solid music, the singers and audience departed too. So now we are back to where we were 5 years ago, with a small group of musicians and an even smaller audience. We can play our music and hear ourselves again.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by southsider
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
"I would deny that singers go to tune sessions to get more songs than they would at a singaround"
OK, I'm generalising but I'm sure many of them do(I know who they are) even although they won't admit it.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by John J.
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
Also, the general consensus here seems to be that folk clubs are "for singers". This is becoming much less the case, although this notion dies hard.
For example, the programmes for Edinburgh and Leith Folk Clubs in January (this month) feature
The Whistlebinkies
Jenna Reid Trio
Mike and Ali Vass
Shona Mooney Band
Anna Massie Band
Tom McConville with Aaron Jones
Rory Campbell, Jonny Hardie and Donald Hay
All of these acts perform predominantly(in some cases entirely) instrumental sets.
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by John J.
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
I agree with you, John J, those "unaccomplished" singers are a bloody devious lot. If they start singing an inappropriate song (i.e., a ballad) at a session you could always join in and force them to sing the whole song in the same key (and in time).
At my local folk club we have guests every third night (that's every third night we meet). The guests are predominantly singers but we do have players as well. When we don't have a guest then anything goes - it just depends who turns up. However, we don't sit round in a tight circle trying to exclude the person with the rain stick. If that is his/her bag, we suffer it (up to a point).
# Posted on January 23rd 2007 by DonaldK
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
Both the sessions I "run" ( that's a loose term, especially at my advanced age ) have enough space and cool to admit singers with or without guitars, especially if they have enough nous to take their turn and pass it on.
Also people drop in from the other end of the bar, one pair being a couple of old mates who'll give us a couple of what I suspect are irish music-hall songs.
I've still not yet met a rain-stick player at a session - I suspect this is an urban myth. Shaky eggs are used with some subtelty at a mixed session I attend.
Meanwhile my local folk-club has changed to a miked performance style, with floor-singers by appointment, chiefly because it's now in an open public area in the local Arts Depot. I'm happy with this insofar as I'm getting a prime spot, but I also feel it does go against the idea of anyone being able to stand up from the floor and perform, and I feel that this was an essential part of the folk-club movement, even if it could sometimes be painful as beginners learnt their craft.
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Folk Clubs vis a vis Sessions
"The Dead Sit Round in a Ring"
- a crime thriller by David Lawrence
# Posted on January 24th 2007 by Trevor Jennings