Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
I think it would be cool, if people could add guitar chord setups (in ABC) to the tunes. I often miss the chords when finding a great tune. Should be very easy to implement.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Sorry, Bayswater, I disagree with you there. The choice of chords and accompaniment style is very much a matter of taste...... that's why(as is often stated here) more than one guitar in a session can be a problem.
Where you do get chord suggestions in tune books, they are often very basic and quite often wrong!
Of course, even the written melody is usually just "the bare bones" and can often be "wrong" or, at least, not written exactly as it sounds or is normally played.
So, I'd prefer to keep things as simple as possible.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Good point John, only problem with that is , as a guitarist myself, is it's kind of hard to learn all the options available so I think "suggestions" would be a great idea, as a long as its not just D, G, A, but rather some way of helping us less experienced players develop, maybe including bass runs, alternative chords etc etc. Maybe us guitarists would more tolerable if we had a helping hand!
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Karlybyrne, the problem is that there are dozens of styles of accompaniment - to the point that what would suit one guitar player, would sound horrible with another. Let's not forget about the other instruments, bouzoukis, pianos and so on - each with its own dozens of individual styles. Add to this a all sorts of alternative chords, bass runs, then explanations what is played where and when, and simple human nature that is prone to making mistakes, and you have a cocktail of confusion.
So I guess it's better to keep things simple after all.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
There are books available on accompanying Irish Traditional Music - however, my best advice would be to listen, listen, listen, and listen more, to the TUNES. For accompaniment ideas from other players, perhaps if you listen to recordings with the likes of Arty McGlynn (mainly drop D), Mícheál Ó Domhnaill (DADGAD), and Tony McManus (for fingerpicking accompaniment when he's not playing the tune - various tunings) - to name but a few.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Still a bit of advice would be nice, I can back a tune no problem with very basic chords but i'm finding it very hard to progress, listening is great but you need some knowledge behind you first to figure out whats going on, i dont know any alternative chords so wouldn't know how to use them or reproduce them from listening to a recording, Maybe if there is a good backer out there that plays at a session in Dublin somewhere I could go and just watch??? any volunteers willing to help???
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
I'm with Janek on this one. It's a bit too much to ask contributors to give chords with their tunes. Most, though not all, of the people who submit tunes here are melody players and may not know what chords should/could be used to accompany any given tune.
Indeed, it has emerged over the last five years or so that many players prefer the music without any chords, although that is a different discussion. If you wan't to develop your style of accompaniment, learn the tune first and then try to work out what chords should go with it. I find doing this indepndantly (as opposed to following a set pattern of chords) develops one's proficiency and style more quickly.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
I'm not much of an expert on Dublin sessions, but I would go to Cobblestones on several evenings (listed in Sessions here) - I remember a good guitar player who made a very tasty accompaniment in standard tuning. Not knowing what tuning you use, my ability to offer you advice is limited.
You can also go to http://coyotebanjo.com/music.html, and scroll down to "Instructional Material" - Chris Smith is offering a lot of advice.
Also (presuming that you are based in Ireland) if I were you, I would find out about any fleadhs, festivals and so on, and just go there - they tend to attract players of every level, including some real high flyers. Go to sessions and find guitar players that do something you don't do yet and would like to, watch them and ask them to teach you one trick/technique/whatever, or just talk to them about music. Most of people would not refuse, as long as you keep civil and respectful. I found it to be the best way to increase your repertoire of techniques, as well as broaden your understanding. Try them out as soon as possible - and do some notes, lest you forget it.
Hope that this proves useful to you. Best of luck on your progress.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Hey John J – It’s funny that you say that choice of chords and accompaniment style is very much a matter of taste...... and at the same time say suggestions in tune books are often very basic and quite often wrong. Although I think I understand that contradiction !
I don’t think anyone should learn how to back tunes this way – BUT it is always interesting to see someone’s slant on backing a tune, as long as everyone understands it is not necessarily right or good…but isn’t that the same with the dots themselves here – ie not necessarily right or good.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
There is no generic backing for all tunes in each key. All tunes in D are not backed the same way. If you try you will, with luck get half of them right at the right time at best. The hard thing about backing is so many variables, there are a number of right ways to accompany any tune.
try maybe some teaching videos from someone you like as a start. Also, record the session you go to and go home and practice to it. Learn their tunes in your head, little by little, and then experiment, maybe a good chord book that is laid out by keys in sections would help. You should go back to your session knowing their usual sets, and gain experience playing out on what you know.
Many have this mistaken notion of learning some formula which you can then apply to all ITM . It will only overwhelm you, and will guarantee you get it wrong. The only real way in my opinion is learn the tunes, by memory, start to train your ear to hear key changes and you will be well on your way. Tune by tune.
The basic chording theory of 1 - 4 - 5 as in (D -G-A for key of D) is a handy tool. Extrememly basic. Still, it is a good starting point. Honestly, it's the only piece of music theory I ever learned. That and some chord positions from a book. Still you need to know what order each tune has the chords in, if you don't know the tune, you are sunk. A tune in D may start on G etc.
So play to common tunes you hear out, home alone, bring them out when ready. No one really comes out being able to play all tunes all the time through a session, even melody players. So sit out what you don't know, play well on what you do know, and the gang will smile or say they thought it was nice etc. and that will give you more confidence to learn more.
Immersion, practice, experimentation, preferably to a recording of your session or the people you hope to play with.Lacking that, play with your favorite CDs, or a very patient melody player who will sit an try to play tunes slowly...and record that for future practice. There are many ways to back as well, and in isolation you are also more able to develop your own style after grasping the basics.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Karl, I guess different players may develop their style in different ways - however, my own personal experience, has been starting out with basic chords, then for the most part, stuffing around with my fingers until things sounded right to my ear. In addition to this, when at gigs, or at sessions, I've watched other guitar players, and picked up wee bits here and there. But over and above all - I listen to the tunes - indeed, I for the most part, when listening to music, am not listening to the accompaniment at all - I'm aware of it (and even more aware of it if my attention is drawn to something not quite right..), but concentrate on the tune. I think this way, it helps to understand the music more (not consciously, but never the less things are going in).
One tip though - try to avoid 3rds for the most part.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Often the chords given in tune books look fine on paper but don't give a nice progression. Just because the notes are BAGD doesn't mean you have to play a G chord. The better players will often choose chords that don't fit the notes but fit the progression.
Learn a bit about pedals, cycles of fifths, relative minors and chord sustitutions (e.g., sustitute sevenths) and look at bass runs.
So D-D-A-A could become D-Bm-Em-A or D-Ebdim-Em-A or D-D/C#-G/B-A7sus or D/F#-G-G#dim-A or D-Fdim-Em-A etc,etc.
But know the tune inside out, because some progressions will work with some tunes but not with others.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
A classic misconception:
"listening is great but you need some knowledge behind you first"
All the knowledge you will ever need is gained from the act of listening.
Also: BegF quite rightly points out that he doesn't think anyone should learn how to back tunes by following chord charts. But I think it's also worht stressing that neither is it a good idea to learn to play the tunes from following the notation. Fine for learning tunes if you can already play, but a really bad way of learning to play.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Absolutly…..however, Dow started a great discussion recently about modes, and had a link to The Earls Chair and another discussion on the “right” chords or chord choices for that.
That’s the benefit I would see in it – ie if you couldn’t hear Dow’s version, it would be handy to see what he’s suggestioning for backup – in no way way am I suggestion it should be used as a way to learn backing, but would be a good resource nonetheless.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
What’s wrong with guitarists/accompanists offering chord suggestions in the Comments section of tunes? Is that any different than placing different abc settings or ornament suggestions? If a reader disagrees with the chord progressions, it would be great if they posted their own interpretations. BegF is spot on -- the recent exchange about the merits of accompanying the Earl’s Chair with Bm or toggling between G and D was very instructive.
Suggestions to go elsewhere, buy books -- or simply listen to your favorite players -- could as easily apply to learning melody. As Mr. llig points out. I think one of the functions of this site is to provide a database of information on all aspects of This Music.
The problem with posting simple ascii tab can be overcome by first setting it out in courier, pasting it into your own profile, and making the necessary spacing tweaks so it looks legible on screen. Then you can copy it from your profile and place it into the comments box and post it. That’s how I managed to make this tab:
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Bayswater: here's a link to the very clever website of the Sheffield University Ceilidh Soc, and you can use it to make up a tunebook, and most of the tunes have chords. I'm sure you'll find a few session favorites: http://www.ceilidhsoc.org/music.html
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
The other thing is that depending on how a tune is being used will affect the harmonic arrangement of the chord structure. At session speed, the chords may be all major or all minor without alot of changes. Basically something to reinforce the bodhran rythym.
A slower pace, allows a good guitarist (cautiously used adjective) to use a more involved chord structure, more bass runs etc which don't translate well in the ABC method of including chords.
Having played some guitar along the way, the chords that get put in are seldom 100% applicable and need tweaking anyway.
.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Go to this web site and click on jigs and/or reels. http://www.flemingbros.com/www.trad-music.com/thsessionplayers.htm
All of the ABC's have very basic chords. Then buy the CD of Trinty Hall Session Players (its only ten dollars) and hear how they actually play the tunes (no finanical intrest involved). The cd is a live recording so it is not over produced. You can hear the backers very well and you should be able to pick up alot of ideas.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
As stated above, there are many approaches that work, many chords that fit. There are books that have chords (Mallinson and Mel Bay books come to mind) but often those chord suggestions are overly busy, and not always pleasing to my ear (and yet at other times, they really strike my fancy in a way I wouldn't have thought of myself). Mr. Mallinson makes it clear in his books that the chords are the way that a backer friend of his accompanied the tunes at one point in time, but far from locked in stone!
My favorite book for simple, beginner friendly guitar chords is a book put out by an American fifer, that includes a lot of Irish and Scottish tunes that have made their way into the American fife and contra dance traditions. It is called "The Fifer's Delight", put out by Ralph Sweet, who is easy to find on google, and sells the book by mail.
But the sooner you can leave the books behind, the better. In the end, the right chords depend on the tunes played in your session, the settings they are found in, the tuning you use on your backing instrument, whether you fingerpick or strum, and a myriad of other issues. Exploring what sounds good, and finding other paths is part of the fun.
And remember to work on your rhythm and strumming at least as much as you work on your chord structures--it ain't just about harmonic structure.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
I've been playing guitar over 30 years. A lot of the suggestions have been good. I may be repeating a few, but I'd suggest finding a good teacher.
Go to sessions, find ones that have backup players you like.
Watch them and learn from them. Take a few lessons if they're willing to teach you, or, go to workshops. Here in the US, many festivals have workshops, often with some of the big name players.
One of things that's hard to notate well is rhythm and timing. It has to come into you through listening. Having someone work with you in a class or a private lesson can be invaluable in getting this right.
The trouble with tabs or ABC notation is that they pretty much assume you already know how a song should feel, e.g., that you know what a reel is and which notes would be given strong or weak stresses to create the characteristic rhythmic feel of the tune.
And if you were to look at written music of what a good backup player might play on a tune it might be a bit daunting. I'm assuming here that you want to go beyond bashing out chords.
Other things to learn- chords and their voicings, basic chord substitution (but not too jazzy for ITM), bass runs. Also, learn when to lay back, and what to leave out. Just because you have 6 strings doesn't mean you have to play all of them at once. Sometimes a 2 or 3 note chord is the right choice. Ear training (learning to hear the chord progreessions) usually comes with experience.
So find someone to learn from. Books, tabs, etc. are more useful when you know way around a bit. I'll never forget the time when I was backing up a friend who had just learned a new bunch of fiddle tunes. I was struggling to make the chords that were written out work. My ear said "that's the wrong chord for this place in melody". But it was what she gave me so I tried to make it work. Then she walked over and pulled the music off the stand, "Just use your ears and follow me." Problem solved.
I was an experienced player, but this experience might have been counter productive to someone trying to get it together. The point here is that if you're trying to learn, trying to make the wrong chords work would be frustrating, to say the least. And as others have pointed out, often the "suggested chords" are wrong.
Also, listen, listen, listen. Musicians listen to music differently than other folks. If you're willing to put a single tune on continuous repeat for a few hours, then you're on the right track.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
One other idea- try video lessons. You can repeat things as much as you need to. I did a quick check on the Homespun Tapes website and found a dvd by the guy who plays with Solas:
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
A big disadvantage of including chords in the ABC when a tune is posted here is that those chord symbols are going to thoroughly mess up any search based on a ABC tune sequence that someone wishes to do in the future - i.e. that tune will probably be missed by the search. The same applies to submitted ABCs that are overloaded with ornaments.
If you want to provide chord progressions or ornaments then it's best to do it with ABCs posted under the Comments section of a submitted tune, and so keep the initial submitted ABC free of chords and ornaments.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Obviously it is already a possibility to add chords to ABCs (directly in the ABC when submitting a tune) - but I can appreciate that it would be either to much to ask submitters to include chords or that some submitters wouldn't like to have their own chords-suggestion submitted along with their tune-submission.
But - my thought was that there could be added another tab at each tune - like "Chord suggestions" where people could add their chord suggestions to existing tunes. That way guitar backers (and other who are interested) could find different chord suggestions and pick the one best suited for his/her playing style.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
This has been an interesting post! I have to say I have strong feelings about both sides of the discussion.
As a guitarist (primarily), I can empathize with my fellow guitarists for wanting some kind of guide, if you will, to help with learning the tunes. It helps immensely, especially if you're a visual learner.
As a musician in general (I play other toys, too...), I truly appreciate and apply the "tasteful variations" to chords and rhythms to help color the song. I've learned a few tunes over my brief few years in ITM just sitting and listening. Sometimes in a session, when others are launching into a tune I've never heard before, I'll just let them play through the tune once so I can hear how it flows...on the second time through, launch tentatively into the tune, perhaps with no more than a strum on the downbeat and a few bass runs for color...and then add more on repeated times through (if there are more). This comes partly from experience of knowing a bit about chords, melodic structure, and all that other theory stuff, but a larger share comes from having just goofed around with tunes, experimented with some variations on tunes I already know well, and then applying all that to the new tune.
Then there are the melody players who've told me, after we're done, that I'd gotten it wrong -- "no, that wasn' supposed to be a B-minor there, it should've been a D (or some other chord)." Hmmm...
In that light, I must ask, where there's room for variation, what are permissible bounds for variations in ITM without making the tune sound non-traditional? I know that the adage of "different strokes for different folks" can apply, and I don't advocate going wild on chords that are <<<***t-h-i-s***>>> long in small Chinese Braille, but from those with much more experience than I, what's cool and what's not?
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Well, for starters, traditional Irish music is not cool. And long may it stay that way. Also, if you can somehow come to the twisted conclusion that you can class your self as a learner of music visually, it's high time you put on a secure blind fold and started to use your ears instead.
And your man was probably right when he complained about the Bmin and asked for a D instead. But it's not as simple as fitting triads into stuff. It's often about finding just two note chords, or chords with no thirds. The standard major and minor thirds that are your average guitar player's bread and butter do not have the same relevance with this music and to shoe horn them in is often disatrous. It's a mind set that strummers need to get to grips with. With most musics of this world, you can quite confidently say here's a tune, and these are the chords. But with this, you can't, it's as simple as that. Much in the same way as you say about the tune, this is how i goes, but it goes like this aswell. Not instead, or alternatively, but aswell.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
LLig.... my taste is with yours on that business of two note "chords" or one note with a drone in the backgound.
And God help us if this music becomes "cool", but I think it was just a choice of wording for loving the music.... please save any traditional art or craft or music from becoming "cool" in the sense you were taking it Llig!! That would be the beginning of the end. If not the end.
Sometimes, I am asked by other guitar players what that "chord" was, I have no idea, it's a one or two at most noter, and I know it by ear, not by name. I try to stick with the melody, it's all about the melody.
Sometimes to my ear anyway, chord after chord after chord in a repetitive pattern seems to fight the music, or dull it at least, taking away from the highs and lows and the subtle spots...... though some do it well and tastefully, others do not. just like any other instrument I suppose, but the problem with backing that you do not find with melody, is a backer can use a repitition of three chords and no notes and kind of get away with it, but a melody player cannot get away with playing three notes out of every tune, they must learn the tune period. A backer should learn the tunes too. I am not saying backing has to play every note, then you'd be playing melody, but there is room for a lot more interplay using notes or two note formations, with the melody than is commonly used...and to my personal ear, it should be pretty subtle, the goal being to accent parts of the melody, stress the notes where your melody player wants to be stressed, be almost their servant or butler in a sense, and never try to be out there over the melody. For those who want backing in the first place that is. Some don't, but I find many do.
Maybe playing fingerstyle allows this more as a possibility, hitting the one or two noters, and not hovering on them, but rather touching lightly on them, leave them quickly when the melody does. Many beginner finger players too though, have a notion that the fingerstyle needs to follow a fingering pattern too, like thumb, index, middle, thumb index middle finger, repetitively, and as long as they stick to the jig or reel timing they can do that while using 2-3 chords and this can be just as "shoe horning" as a strummer. We know because we all started there! I don't believe any fingerstyle player was born noting and making up sets of two notes instead of chords. It takes a lot of practice and getting to know the fingerboard well by ear and eye, to be able to go to the right spot, without thinking, just like a melody player.
There is a world on that fretboard beyond this "chord-prison", guitar gets a bad rap here, but it is a versatile and very intricate and complex instrument, and many do not even care to explore it enough to make good use of it both as a backing or a melody intrument. Maybe with time and practice you hear that a note is held by the melody player, you go there and hold it with them and leave your patterns behind. You stress something with them for several notes sometimes, or you learn to leave a space and let them pull that note or few notes out alone for a second or two or three, let it sing alone, then jump back in. Or you play parts of the melody with them for a few notes instead of a chord. A good strummer can do this too, but of course they are not technically strumming at those times, they are noting..
Strumming, I think Llig, you are right, but it does depends on the player. Strummers maybe should know they don't have to hit all the strings all the time. Great flatipickers though, who also back the music, do often pick up a lot of single notes.... or Donal Clancy, for example, does that "cross picking" where he uses a flatpick, yet can pick with his other fingers at the same time....many notes or two noters in his playing.
You are so right....it's not about shoe horning in 2-3 chords to fit any given key and repeating them round and round even if you do get the right order. If a lot of backers would push themselves a bit to learn both the melody and more about the instrument, maybe we wouldn't be having these discussions so often. Best place to learn, home alone, to recordings where you can experiment with finding the notes or two noters. You can be a flatpicker or a finger player well, if you start paying more attention to the melody and realize that the key and the right chords are not the be all and end all of it.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
As an ex-schoolteacher and used-to-be-sometimes guitar teacher, I recommend reading and re-reading Snakefingers' "essay". As he/she and others say, this is a subject that calls for as many different approaches as possible. Simple instructions like "just listen" are not adequate for most learners.
I have seen the John Doyle video, and it seemed
inspirational to me; but I would not rely on it alone.
As I recall, Doyle explains that he developed his style by working things out for himself, with little concept of any theory. This is fine for an artist of his calibre, but unproductive for most of us.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Iris, do you play in standard tuning? I use several tunings, but I often tune to DADGAD or dropped D for backing. I can play in several keys in DADGAD, and find it's a really good way to get the one or two note chord and a drone sound. Like you, I play fingerstyle and find that it does make it easier to play just a few notes.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Session playing, playing for dancing and performance for listening entirely different things. That said, in the first two the most important function of the guitarist is rhythm - only in the performance idiom is arrangement and playing certain phrases with varying degrees of emphasis and holding notes etc important. Trying to put highs and lows into a dance set is all very well, but the dancers probably won't hear it and they won't thank you for faffing about with the rhythm and will probably appreciate something playing the rhythm (certainly as a dancer I do). When you're dancing its you don't care about the subtleties of the music - its all about the dancing and the energy from that.
In short - yes, I think as this is a site about dance music then there certainly could be the possibility to post (triadic) chord suggestions (with the fewest changes & the simplest chords) in a separate tab for people who want to play the tunes for dancing. Arrangements should be kept out of it as should personal preference for tunings and style. If you're big and ugly enough to play for performance then you're can do your own arrangements and have your own style.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
It's been 8 months since I posted this post, and I STILL miss guitar chords from time to time. I still think it would be a good idea to include them here. What I'm proposing is not that those who submit a tune are forced to include chords - not at all. But it would be cool if guitarists could add their chord setup to the tune. When you click your way to a tune today these are the tabs/options you have:
I think one more should be added [Guitar Chords suggestions] and THIS could be where people could add their chords. So the chords don't affiliate with the original tune-submission as such, but people may add them if they want to.
Some might say - then you could just add the chords to the [Comments] and this is true, but fact is that this doesn't happen that much. If the [Guitar Chords suggestions] tab was added there would be a better incentive for doing so. That way guitarists could try different setups than their own etc.
People suggest that you should listen instead to learn to play guitar chords - that's all good, but that's not how it works for everyone. This would be a simple way to share the wealth for everyone - I can't see the harm in that. The people who don't need the chords, well they don't have to click that tab
Oh - and finally the suggestion I propose would be pretty easy to implement it seems?!
Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
I think it would be cool, if people could add guitar chord setups (in ABC) to the tunes. I often miss the chords when finding a great tune. Should be very easy to implement.
What do you think?
Cheers!
/Bays
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by bayswater
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Sorry, Bayswater, I disagree with you there. The choice of chords and accompaniment style is very much a matter of taste...... that's why(as is often stated here) more than one guitar in a session can be a problem.
Where you do get chord suggestions in tune books, they are often very basic and quite often wrong!
Of course, even the written melody is usually just "the bare bones" and can often be "wrong" or, at least, not written exactly as it sounds or is normally played.
So, I'd prefer to keep things as simple as possible.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by John J.
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Good point John, only problem with that is , as a guitarist myself, is it's kind of hard to learn all the options available so I think "suggestions" would be a great idea, as a long as its not just D, G, A, but rather some way of helping us less experienced players develop, maybe including bass runs, alternative chords etc etc. Maybe us guitarists would more tolerable if we had a helping hand!
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by fap
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Karlybyrne, the problem is that there are dozens of styles of accompaniment - to the point that what would suit one guitar player, would sound horrible with another. Let's not forget about the other instruments, bouzoukis, pianos and so on - each with its own dozens of individual styles. Add to this a all sorts of alternative chords, bass runs, then explanations what is played where and when, and simple human nature that is prone to making mistakes, and you have a cocktail of confusion.
So I guess it's better to keep things simple after all.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Janek
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
There are books available on accompanying Irish Traditional Music - however, my best advice would be to listen, listen, listen, and listen more, to the TUNES. For accompaniment ideas from other players, perhaps if you listen to recordings with the likes of Arty McGlynn (mainly drop D), Mícheál Ó Domhnaill (DADGAD), and Tony McManus (for fingerpicking accompaniment when he's not playing the tune - various tunings) - to name but a few.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Ron P
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Still a bit of advice would be nice, I can back a tune no problem with very basic chords but i'm finding it very hard to progress, listening is great but you need some knowledge behind you first to figure out whats going on, i dont know any alternative chords so wouldn't know how to use them or reproduce them from listening to a recording, Maybe if there is a good backer out there that plays at a session in Dublin somewhere I could go and just watch??? any volunteers willing to help???
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by fap
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
I'm with Janek on this one. It's a bit too much to ask contributors to give chords with their tunes. Most, though not all, of the people who submit tunes here are melody players and may not know what chords should/could be used to accompany any given tune.
Indeed, it has emerged over the last five years or so that many players prefer the music without any chords, although that is a different discussion. If you wan't to develop your style of accompaniment, learn the tune first and then try to work out what chords should go with it. I find doing this indepndantly (as opposed to following a set pattern of chords) develops one's proficiency and style more quickly.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Sinocal
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
I'm not much of an expert on Dublin sessions, but I would go to Cobblestones on several evenings (listed in Sessions here) - I remember a good guitar player who made a very tasty accompaniment in standard tuning. Not knowing what tuning you use, my ability to offer you advice is limited.
You can also go to http://coyotebanjo.com/music.html, and scroll down to "Instructional Material" - Chris Smith is offering a lot of advice.
Also (presuming that you are based in Ireland) if I were you, I would find out about any fleadhs, festivals and so on, and just go there - they tend to attract players of every level, including some real high flyers. Go to sessions and find guitar players that do something you don't do yet and would like to, watch them and ask them to teach you one trick/technique/whatever, or just talk to them about music. Most of people would not refuse, as long as you keep civil and respectful. I found it to be the best way to increase your repertoire of techniques, as well as broaden your understanding. Try them out as soon as possible - and do some notes, lest you forget it.
Hope that this proves useful to you. Best of luck on your progress.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Janek
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
That should've been "tasteful accompaniment". I missed the lunch today, and there you have it.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Janek
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Hey John J – It’s funny that you say that choice of chords and accompaniment style is very much a matter of taste...... and at the same time say suggestions in tune books are often very basic and quite often wrong. Although I think I understand that contradiction !
I don’t think anyone should learn how to back tunes this way – BUT it is always interesting to see someone’s slant on backing a tune, as long as everyone understands it is not necessarily right or good…but isn’t that the same with the dots themselves here – ie not necessarily right or good.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by BegF
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
“someones”
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by BegF
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Why dont you buy some albums of guitartists you like?
Then LISTEN to what they do, tune up and play along.
Just an idea!
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
There is no generic backing for all tunes in each key. All tunes in D are not backed the same way. If you try you will, with luck get half of them right at the right time at best. The hard thing about backing is so many variables, there are a number of right ways to accompany any tune.
try maybe some teaching videos from someone you like as a start. Also, record the session you go to and go home and practice to it. Learn their tunes in your head, little by little, and then experiment, maybe a good chord book that is laid out by keys in sections would help. You should go back to your session knowing their usual sets, and gain experience playing out on what you know.
Many have this mistaken notion of learning some formula which you can then apply to all ITM . It will only overwhelm you, and will guarantee you get it wrong. The only real way in my opinion is learn the tunes, by memory, start to train your ear to hear key changes and you will be well on your way. Tune by tune.
The basic chording theory of 1 - 4 - 5 as in (D -G-A for key of D) is a handy tool. Extrememly basic. Still, it is a good starting point. Honestly, it's the only piece of music theory I ever learned. That and some chord positions from a book. Still you need to know what order each tune has the chords in, if you don't know the tune, you are sunk. A tune in D may start on G etc.
So play to common tunes you hear out, home alone, bring them out when ready. No one really comes out being able to play all tunes all the time through a session, even melody players. So sit out what you don't know, play well on what you do know, and the gang will smile or say they thought it was nice etc. and that will give you more confidence to learn more.
Immersion, practice, experimentation, preferably to a recording of your session or the people you hope to play with.Lacking that, play with your favorite CDs, or a very patient melody player who will sit an try to play tunes slowly...and record that for future practice. There are many ways to back as well, and in isolation you are also more able to develop your own style after grasping the basics.
just my 2 cents...
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Karl, I guess different players may develop their style in different ways - however, my own personal experience, has been starting out with basic chords, then for the most part, stuffing around with my fingers until things sounded right to my ear. In addition to this, when at gigs, or at sessions, I've watched other guitar players, and picked up wee bits here and there. But over and above all - I listen to the tunes - indeed, I for the most part, when listening to music, am not listening to the accompaniment at all - I'm aware of it (and even more aware of it if my attention is drawn to something not quite right..), but concentrate on the tune. I think this way, it helps to understand the music more (not consciously, but never the less things are going in).
One tip though - try to avoid 3rds for the most part.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by Ron P
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Often the chords given in tune books look fine on paper but don't give a nice progression. Just because the notes are BAGD doesn't mean you have to play a G chord. The better players will often choose chords that don't fit the notes but fit the progression.
Learn a bit about pedals, cycles of fifths, relative minors and chord sustitutions (e.g., sustitute sevenths) and look at bass runs.
So D-D-A-A could become D-Bm-Em-A or D-Ebdim-Em-A or D-D/C#-G/B-A7sus or D/F#-G-G#dim-A or D-Fdim-Em-A etc,etc.
But know the tune inside out, because some progressions will work with some tunes but not with others.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by DonaldK
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
A classic misconception:
"listening is great but you need some knowledge behind you first"
All the knowledge you will ever need is gained from the act of listening.
Also: BegF quite rightly points out that he doesn't think anyone should learn how to back tunes by following chord charts. But I think it's also worht stressing that neither is it a good idea to learn to play the tunes from following the notation. Fine for learning tunes if you can already play, but a really bad way of learning to play.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Absolutly…..however, Dow started a great discussion recently about modes, and had a link to The Earls Chair and another discussion on the “right” chords or chord choices for that.
That’s the benefit I would see in it – ie if you couldn’t hear Dow’s version, it would be handy to see what he’s suggestioning for backup – in no way way am I suggestion it should be used as a way to learn backing, but would be a good resource nonetheless.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by BegF
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
What’s wrong with guitarists/accompanists offering chord suggestions in the Comments section of tunes? Is that any different than placing different abc settings or ornament suggestions? If a reader disagrees with the chord progressions, it would be great if they posted their own interpretations. BegF is spot on -- the recent exchange about the merits of accompanying the Earl’s Chair with Bm or toggling between G and D was very instructive.
Suggestions to go elsewhere, buy books -- or simply listen to your favorite players -- could as easily apply to learning melody. As Mr. llig points out. I think one of the functions of this site is to provide a database of information on all aspects of This Music.
The problem with posting simple ascii tab can be overcome by first setting it out in courier, pasting it into your own profile, and making the necessary spacing tweaks so it looks legible on screen. Then you can copy it from your profile and place it into the comments box and post it. That’s how I managed to make this tab:
http://thesession.org/discussions/display/11774/comments#comment239274
It’s a little shaky but I think quite legible, at least on my browser. I know many here can do much better.
I know I’ve got lots to learn and this site is a great place to do it. Adding chordal suggestions would benefit those who like such things.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by fidkid
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Well you are welcome to put that stuff in the comments about the tune.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Bayswater: here's a link to the very clever website of the Sheffield University Ceilidh Soc, and you can use it to make up a tunebook, and most of the tunes have chords. I'm sure you'll find a few session favorites: http://www.ceilidhsoc.org/music.html
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
...perhaps not "most" but a lot of them have suggested chords
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
The other thing is that depending on how a tune is being used will affect the harmonic arrangement of the chord structure. At session speed, the chords may be all major or all minor without alot of changes. Basically something to reinforce the bodhran rythym.
A slower pace, allows a good guitarist (cautiously used adjective) to use a more involved chord structure, more bass runs etc which don't translate well in the ABC method of including chords.
Having played some guitar along the way, the chords that get put in are seldom 100% applicable and need tweaking anyway.
.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Now there's a session ... where the the chords are there to reinforce the bodhran. AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGHHHH
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
reinforce the bodhran rhythm ?
If anything reinforce the tune's rhythm...and even the idea of just reinforcing...I dunno.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by BegF
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Beat me too it llig.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by BegF
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Go to this web site and click on jigs and/or reels.
http://www.flemingbros.com/www.trad-music.com/thsessionplayers.htm
All of the ABC's have very basic chords. Then buy the CD of Trinty Hall Session Players (its only ten dollars) and hear how they actually play the tunes (no finanical intrest involved). The cd is a live recording so it is not over produced. You can hear the backers very well and you should be able to pick up alot of ideas.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by old and in the way
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Sorry. I was trying to come up with a use for a guitar and all I could come up with is staying in time with the percussion.
I don't want to get in between bodhran players and guitar players either philosophically or physically.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
As stated above, there are many approaches that work, many chords that fit. There are books that have chords (Mallinson and Mel Bay books come to mind) but often those chord suggestions are overly busy, and not always pleasing to my ear (and yet at other times, they really strike my fancy in a way I wouldn't have thought of myself). Mr. Mallinson makes it clear in his books that the chords are the way that a backer friend of his accompanied the tunes at one point in time, but far from locked in stone!
My favorite book for simple, beginner friendly guitar chords is a book put out by an American fifer, that includes a lot of Irish and Scottish tunes that have made their way into the American fife and contra dance traditions. It is called "The Fifer's Delight", put out by Ralph Sweet, who is easy to find on google, and sells the book by mail.
But the sooner you can leave the books behind, the better. In the end, the right chords depend on the tunes played in your session, the settings they are found in, the tuning you use on your backing instrument, whether you fingerpick or strum, and a myriad of other issues. Exploring what sounds good, and finding other paths is part of the fun.
And remember to work on your rhythm and strumming at least as much as you work on your chord structures--it ain't just about harmonic structure.
# Posted on January 18th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
I've been playing guitar over 30 years. A lot of the suggestions have been good. I may be repeating a few, but I'd suggest finding a good teacher.
Go to sessions, find ones that have backup players you like.
Watch them and learn from them. Take a few lessons if they're willing to teach you, or, go to workshops. Here in the US, many festivals have workshops, often with some of the big name players.
One of things that's hard to notate well is rhythm and timing. It has to come into you through listening. Having someone work with you in a class or a private lesson can be invaluable in getting this right.
The trouble with tabs or ABC notation is that they pretty much assume you already know how a song should feel, e.g., that you know what a reel is and which notes would be given strong or weak stresses to create the characteristic rhythmic feel of the tune.
And if you were to look at written music of what a good backup player might play on a tune it might be a bit daunting. I'm assuming here that you want to go beyond bashing out chords.
Other things to learn- chords and their voicings, basic chord substitution (but not too jazzy for ITM), bass runs. Also, learn when to lay back, and what to leave out. Just because you have 6 strings doesn't mean you have to play all of them at once. Sometimes a 2 or 3 note chord is the right choice. Ear training (learning to hear the chord progreessions) usually comes with experience.
So find someone to learn from. Books, tabs, etc. are more useful when you know way around a bit. I'll never forget the time when I was backing up a friend who had just learned a new bunch of fiddle tunes. I was struggling to make the chords that were written out work. My ear said "that's the wrong chord for this place in melody". But it was what she gave me so I tried to make it work. Then she walked over and pulled the music off the stand, "Just use your ears and follow me." Problem solved.
I was an experienced player, but this experience might have been counter productive to someone trying to get it together. The point here is that if you're trying to learn, trying to make the wrong chords work would be frustrating, to say the least. And as others have pointed out, often the "suggested chords" are wrong.
Also, listen, listen, listen. Musicians listen to music differently than other folks. If you're willing to put a single tune on continuous repeat for a few hours, then you're on the right track.
And don't forget to practice. A lot.
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by Snakefingers
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
One other idea- try video lessons. You can repeat things as much as you need to. I did a quick check on the Homespun Tapes website and found a dvd by the guy who plays with Solas:
http://www.homespuntapes.com/prodpg/prodpg.asp?prodID=130&prodType=
It's not exactly session playing, but it might be helpful. I'm sure there are other offering on dvd.
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by Snakefingers
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
crikey, snakefingers, you managed to drag out what I said in ten words to a whole essay
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
A big disadvantage of including chords in the ABC when a tune is posted here is that those chord symbols are going to thoroughly mess up any search based on a ABC tune sequence that someone wishes to do in the future - i.e. that tune will probably be missed by the search. The same applies to submitted ABCs that are overloaded with ornaments.
If you want to provide chord progressions or ornaments then it's best to do it with ABCs posted under the Comments section of a submitted tune, and so keep the initial submitted ABC free of chords and ornaments.
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Obviously it is already a possibility to add chords to ABCs (directly in the ABC when submitting a tune) - but I can appreciate that it would be either to much to ask submitters to include chords or that some submitters wouldn't like to have their own chords-suggestion submitted along with their tune-submission.
But - my thought was that there could be added another tab at each tune - like "Chord suggestions" where people could add their chord suggestions to existing tunes. That way guitar backers (and other who are interested) could find different chord suggestions and pick the one best suited for his/her playing style.
What do you think?
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by bayswater
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
This has been an interesting post! I have to say I have strong feelings about both sides of the discussion.
As a guitarist (primarily), I can empathize with my fellow guitarists for wanting some kind of guide, if you will, to help with learning the tunes. It helps immensely, especially if you're a visual learner.
As a musician in general (I play other toys, too...), I truly appreciate and apply the "tasteful variations" to chords and rhythms to help color the song. I've learned a few tunes over my brief few years in ITM just sitting and listening. Sometimes in a session, when others are launching into a tune I've never heard before, I'll just let them play through the tune once so I can hear how it flows...on the second time through, launch tentatively into the tune, perhaps with no more than a strum on the downbeat and a few bass runs for color...and then add more on repeated times through (if there are more). This comes partly from experience of knowing a bit about chords, melodic structure, and all that other theory stuff, but a larger share comes from having just goofed around with tunes, experimented with some variations on tunes I already know well, and then applying all that to the new tune.
Then there are the melody players who've told me, after we're done, that I'd gotten it wrong -- "no, that wasn' supposed to be a B-minor there, it should've been a D (or some other chord)." Hmmm...
In that light, I must ask, where there's room for variation, what are permissible bounds for variations in ITM without making the tune sound non-traditional? I know that the adage of "different strokes for different folks" can apply, and I don't advocate going wild on chords that are <<<***t-h-i-s***>>> long in small Chinese Braille, but from those with much more experience than I, what's cool and what's not?
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by pn5jn
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Well, for starters, traditional Irish music is not cool. And long may it stay that way. Also, if you can somehow come to the twisted conclusion that you can class your self as a learner of music visually, it's high time you put on a secure blind fold and started to use your ears instead.
And your man was probably right when he complained about the Bmin and asked for a D instead. But it's not as simple as fitting triads into stuff. It's often about finding just two note chords, or chords with no thirds. The standard major and minor thirds that are your average guitar player's bread and butter do not have the same relevance with this music and to shoe horn them in is often disatrous. It's a mind set that strummers need to get to grips with. With most musics of this world, you can quite confidently say here's a tune, and these are the chords. But with this, you can't, it's as simple as that. Much in the same way as you say about the tune, this is how i goes, but it goes like this aswell. Not instead, or alternatively, but aswell.
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Well said llig.
# Posted on January 19th 2007 by Ron P
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
LLig.... my taste is with yours on that business of two note "chords" or one note with a drone in the backgound.
And God help us if this music becomes "cool", but I think it was just a choice of wording for loving the music.... please save any traditional art or craft or music from becoming "cool" in the sense you were taking it Llig!! That would be the beginning of the end. If not the end.
Sometimes, I am asked by other guitar players what that "chord" was, I have no idea, it's a one or two at most noter, and I know it by ear, not by name. I try to stick with the melody, it's all about the melody.
Sometimes to my ear anyway, chord after chord after chord in a repetitive pattern seems to fight the music, or dull it at least, taking away from the highs and lows and the subtle spots...... though some do it well and tastefully, others do not. just like any other instrument I suppose, but the problem with backing that you do not find with melody, is a backer can use a repitition of three chords and no notes and kind of get away with it, but a melody player cannot get away with playing three notes out of every tune, they must learn the tune period. A backer should learn the tunes too. I am not saying backing has to play every note, then you'd be playing melody, but there is room for a lot more interplay using notes or two note formations, with the melody than is commonly used...and to my personal ear, it should be pretty subtle, the goal being to accent parts of the melody, stress the notes where your melody player wants to be stressed, be almost their servant or butler in a sense, and never try to be out there over the melody. For those who want backing in the first place that is. Some don't, but I find many do.
Maybe playing fingerstyle allows this more as a possibility, hitting the one or two noters, and not hovering on them, but rather touching lightly on them, leave them quickly when the melody does. Many beginner finger players too though, have a notion that the fingerstyle needs to follow a fingering pattern too, like thumb, index, middle, thumb index middle finger, repetitively, and as long as they stick to the jig or reel timing they can do that while using 2-3 chords and this can be just as "shoe horning" as a strummer. We know because we all started there! I don't believe any fingerstyle player was born noting and making up sets of two notes instead of chords. It takes a lot of practice and getting to know the fingerboard well by ear and eye, to be able to go to the right spot, without thinking, just like a melody player.
There is a world on that fretboard beyond this "chord-prison", guitar gets a bad rap here, but it is a versatile and very intricate and complex instrument, and many do not even care to explore it enough to make good use of it both as a backing or a melody intrument. Maybe with time and practice you hear that a note is held by the melody player, you go there and hold it with them and leave your patterns behind. You stress something with them for several notes sometimes, or you learn to leave a space and let them pull that note or few notes out alone for a second or two or three, let it sing alone, then jump back in. Or you play parts of the melody with them for a few notes instead of a chord. A good strummer can do this too, but of course they are not technically strumming at those times, they are noting..
Strumming, I think Llig, you are right, but it does depends on the player. Strummers maybe should know they don't have to hit all the strings all the time. Great flatipickers though, who also back the music, do often pick up a lot of single notes.... or Donal Clancy, for example, does that "cross picking" where he uses a flatpick, yet can pick with his other fingers at the same time....many notes or two noters in his playing.
You are so right....it's not about shoe horning in 2-3 chords to fit any given key and repeating them round and round even if you do get the right order. If a lot of backers would push themselves a bit to learn both the melody and more about the instrument, maybe we wouldn't be having these discussions so often. Best place to learn, home alone, to recordings where you can experiment with finding the notes or two noters. You can be a flatpicker or a finger player well, if you start paying more attention to the melody and realize that the key and the right chords are not the be all and end all of it.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
As an ex-schoolteacher and used-to-be-sometimes guitar teacher, I recommend reading and re-reading Snakefingers' "essay". As he/she and others say, this is a subject that calls for as many different approaches as possible. Simple instructions like "just listen" are not adequate for most learners.
I have seen the John Doyle video, and it seemed
inspirational to me; but I would not rely on it alone.
As I recall, Doyle explains that he developed his style by working things out for himself, with little concept of any theory. This is fine for an artist of his calibre, but unproductive for most of us.
# Posted on January 20th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Iris, do you play in standard tuning? I use several tunings, but I often tune to DADGAD or dropped D for backing. I can play in several keys in DADGAD, and find it's a really good way to get the one or two note chord and a drone sound. Like you, I play fingerstyle and find that it does make it easier to play just a few notes.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by Snakefingers
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
Session playing, playing for dancing and performance for listening entirely different things. That said, in the first two the most important function of the guitarist is rhythm - only in the performance idiom is arrangement and playing certain phrases with varying degrees of emphasis and holding notes etc important. Trying to put highs and lows into a dance set is all very well, but the dancers probably won't hear it and they won't thank you for faffing about with the rhythm and will probably appreciate something playing the rhythm (certainly as a dancer I do). When you're dancing its you don't care about the subtleties of the music - its all about the dancing and the energy from that.
In short - yes, I think as this is a site about dance music then there certainly could be the possibility to post (triadic) chord suggestions (with the fewest changes & the simplest chords) in a separate tab for people who want to play the tunes for dancing. Arrangements should be kept out of it as should personal preference for tunings and style. If you're big and ugly enough to play for performance then you're can do your own arrangements and have your own style.
# Posted on January 21st 2007 by Andy V
Re: Guitar chords for tunes (suggestion for thesession?)
It's been 8 months since I posted this post, and I STILL miss guitar chords from time to time. I still think it would be a good idea to include them here. What I'm proposing is not that those who submit a tune are forced to include chords - not at all. But it would be cool if guitarists could add their chord setup to the tune. When you click your way to a tune today these are the tabs/options you have:
[Details] [ABC] [Sheetmusic] [Comments] [Download]
I think one more should be added [Guitar Chords suggestions] and THIS could be where people could add their chords. So the chords don't affiliate with the original tune-submission as such, but people may add them if they want to.
Some might say - then you could just add the chords to the [Comments] and this is true, but fact is that this doesn't happen that much. If the [Guitar Chords suggestions] tab was added there would be a better incentive for doing so. That way guitarists could try different setups than their own etc.
People suggest that you should listen instead to learn to play guitar chords - that's all good, but that's not how it works for everyone. This would be a simple way to share the wealth for everyone - I can't see the harm in that. The people who don't need the chords, well they don't have to click that tab
Oh - and finally the suggestion I propose would be pretty easy to implement it seems?!
Well, maybe in another 8 months?!
# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by bayswater