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How Many In A Session is Too Many?

How Many In A Session is Too Many?

Sometimes I prefer to listen one harmony instrument and one backup instrument to as opposed to a whole conglomeration of instruments basically playing the same tune. It just gets a little too busy.

What guidelines do you follow for allowing people in? If there are already two fiddlers, do you let in another one? If you've got three backing on the guitar and one playing the melody on the flute, do you invite a fourth guitarist in? When is it just too much?

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by RTP

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

If Barry Foy's "Field Guide to the Irish Music Session" is any indication, there are only a select few instruments whose numbers are to be limited (or banned). Generally, rhythm instruments are restricted to one player each and the melody players are allowed to overpopulate the pub until the fire-marshal gets nervous.

It's a neat book. Pick up a copy!

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by Caoimghgin

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

We had a whole strings section there last night. Two flutes, one box, one banjo, usually one bodran at a time, and usually one guitar. We had a dulcimer player laying cover fire for us as well.

Too many? There is one too many when I show up. They sigh and crowd me in anyway. ;)

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by Mark Cordova

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

Numbers in a session is a very subjective thing. To some any more than 6 is too many, while others revel in the charged atmosphere of 25 to 30 musicians giving it all they've got. Thankfully there are so many diverse sessions around that most musicians can find something to their liking without too much difficulty. My own view is that sessions are not just about music and that the camaraderie and craic are equally important elements so that my personal preference has to be the larger grouping.

However, I do agree with the sentiment that percussion and accompaniment should be kept in proportion particularly with regard to bodhrans but hopefully this can be arranged in an amicable way - spoons aren't so much of a problem as bowls of soup can always be provided for the over zealous exponents!

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by Bannerman

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

I'm of the 6-8 number for a session - anything more gets a bit messy especially if you have too many backers playing different chords messily. 6-8 is a great number.

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by bb

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

My local session has 15-20 (with at least 10 fiddlers) musicians usually playing fast mateirial, and up to 4 Bodrahn players I should note however that these all play very softly and sympathetically so as to avoid being chucked out on their ears! It in my opinion, sounds nice.

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by Dafydd Monks

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

I would go mad Dafydd - I hate the sound of more than 3 fiddles - makes it sound like a fiddle ochestra.

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by bb

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

well, it has been down to 2 fiddles in the past, but It's usually 15-20, but they're all good musicians, and it's handy if your not feeling so hot with your playing, or if you havent been doing any practice!

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by Dafydd Monks

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

does anyone think 6-string & 12-string guitars count as 2 different backing instruments, or just simply 2 guitars.

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by emily_bmore

Guitars

They count as 3. Each 6 strings count as 1 guitar, so the 12-string counts as 2. An ukelele counts as 2/3 of a guitar, and mandolin counts as 1 and 1/3.

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by glauber

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

When I read the comment before I saw who wrote it I just knew it was you glauber :)

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by bb

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

6-8 is my fav, too. I started not going to some local sessions because they were just too huge. If you can't hear the tune someone else is starting because they're too far away *at the other end of the table,* I'm outta there. *grin*

Zina

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by Zina Lee

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

yeah, I agree about avoiding a session that is too busy, but some nights at the pub, there may be two fiddlers and the next (like a couple weeks ago) there will be nine......I like the nice comfy sessions, not the ones where it's more like an orchestra....opinionated, I know....and probably don't have a right to be! :)

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by BluFiddle

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

Since when has that ever stopped us, Blu? :)

zls

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by Zina Lee

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

a session is too huge when half of the group is changing to another tune, and the other half to yet another one at the same time - and it takes half a minute or so before everyone has found out what 's happening ....
BTW, I get a bit mad, if I have started a set, and some one else makes his own shift to the next tune instead of listening what I'm gonna do next. Am I overreacting or do you agree that it is part of the session etiquette to wait and listen at the right moments?

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by Henk Bos

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

Our sessions over here are open to all and a warm welcome is extended to newcomers. So while I have a preference for a smaller session I would not refuse entry to anyone coming in.

The best number for a session really depends on the venue and it's acoustics. Where the acoustics are crap you get the problem mentioned by Henk.

If we want an intimate session the we choose a pub that has a snug that limits the numbers to 6-8!

# Posted on January 9th 2003 by breandan

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

Henk...I feel the same way about someone jumping in on your set. I frequently have that problem with one particular musician (who shall remain nameless, being that many know him). He claims that there's no rule that whoever starts the set "owns" it. But it really does come down to session etiquette...something that I find many sessions are lacking these days. There are certain "rules" that make a session different than a gig/performance.

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by irishfiddler32

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

As many as will play. Fiddles, melodians, whistles, spoons, table legs....

How can you enjoy a session if it's without the spontaneity that comes with having 37 bodhrans and a flute?

=)

~Cait

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Caitriona

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

For a session to be effective I believe it is essential for each player to be able to have eye contact with the others when playing. The physical layout and arrangement of the room and players will obviously determine the maximum number for which eye contact is possible, and if this number is significantly exceeded then disaster looms, as Hank pointed out.
Of course, you can get a group of players who play together so often and know each other's playing so well that they do not need much eye contact, but these are the exception.
In classical chamber music (i.e. that played without a conductor) the ensembles are from 3 to 9 players. Beyond 9 I think you'd lose the general eye contact and then it becomes necessary to have a conductor or a lead player to follow - in other words an orchestra or band.

trevor

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Trevor Jennings

Sorry, Henk! It's me eyes again. I misread your name on screen.

trevor

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Trevor Jennings

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

Henk: yes. It's impolite for someone to wrest the set away from the person who started the thing. (It's not unheard of, of course, for the starter's chin to throw the control of the set to someone else.) If there's a session leader(s), someone ought to have a quiet word with whoever is doing such a rude thing. Otherwise it'll be up to the senior members of the session to make it clear that this is Not Done.

Colleen: hmmm. Each session does tend to have it's own version of etiquette. If that's the typical kind of norm at your session, I'd find another to attend -- and feel free to have a word with a session leader to tell them why. Because it's pretty common that it's considered polite to let the person who started the set continue the set -- just like you stick to the tempo of the first tune started.

Once I was in a session at which there was apparently a problem of this sort. I don't know the background history, but somebody kept trying to start tunes and everyone would ignore them and would gaze fixedly (and play along with) the person who started the set. Obviously it had been planned previously, but I remember thinking behavior must have been pretty extreme in the past to warrant that sort of shutting-out.

Zina

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Zina Lee

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

I have seen and gone to the sessions where I started the set but someone else ended it. I have done it. Folk have done it to me. I can't complain much because I just like the music to go on and on.

I believe it's grand to pass the lead along to somebody. With me I have tried saying "take it" but it ended up sounding like tash thttt. I can't really nod to someone. The eyebrows lifting gets amusing. People get a little confused about the actual translation of those eyebrows. I could point to someone with my toe but that is a signal as well. I have a genetic trait that allows me to wiggle my ears. Thats the new signal for those who can't talk and play at the same time. Right ear - someone on the right takes it. Left ear - you got the idea.

Know that I know that inserting a tune into a set is a no no to some of you, I will make sure it's OK before I do it and If I do it on those few occasions.

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Mark Cordova

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

I've sat in on many sessions where it's a free for all as to who kicks in the next tune...no apparent etiquette about it at all, and that suited the players. In some cases it was because the relatively neophyte players weren't comfortable keeping the music going themselves. In others it was because everyone was a veteran and they could jump from tune to tune for an hour or more, everyone on board within 3-4 notes.

I try to give the starting person room to choose the next one, but I'm also usually ready with a tune of my own if one is needed. I've also seen many sessions where one or two players become the default "continuers" because they're the best at doing it.

And Trevor, I disagree about the eye contact thing. Our local session is mostly oldsters and nobody can see each other anyway :-). The others play with their eyes closed most of the time. And it's not uncommon to have a row of people behind the inner circle. So the size of the group is limited by sound, not sight. Another difference between trad and classical...most of us don't worry about eye contact too much unless we're trying to woo the cute young thing over by the bar....

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Will Harmon

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

Ah, see now....Rose needs that pulaski! ;)

zls

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Zina Lee

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

Whew, now that I've a bit more time... Yeah, Will, I know what you mean, but I was speaking to Henk's (and Colleen's) situation where he does have a set he wants to play and somebody else highjacks the set. I think that's rude. In most sessions, even ones where it's a free-for-all, most people will at least look over to the person who started the set to see if they have another tune before just starting a tune they want to play.

Henk, try this -- when you get to the end of the first tune, yell out the key of the next tune, ostensibly to the accompanists. That will let everyone know you have a tune in mind.

Zina

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Zina Lee

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

If I really wanted to keep to a preconceived set of tunes, I'd just tell everyone ahead of time. "Lets do Boys of the Lough, to Dunmore Lasses, to Peller's Jacket, three times each." Of course that presumes that I can remember what I said I'd play, and in the right order.... :o)

I once got to sit next to Ged Foley in a small session. He was playing fiddle (and doing a much better job than most of us who don't play guitar for a living :-), and he became the default tune guy just because he knew so many more than the rest of us. But it was possible even then to just drop one in, usually just by increasing your volume slightly in the last bar of the current tune. Ged would pick up on that and instantly defer. Good fun, and it seems to work well with any musicians capable of playing and listening at the same time.

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Will Harmon

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

Yeah, what're you trying to say with that last, Harmon? *grin*

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Zina Lee

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

I'm sorry, Zina, missed what you were saying...I was playing a tune. Come again?

harharharmon

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Will Harmon

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

LOL -- well saved, Will...

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Zina Lee

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

As long as I can still get to the bar, it dont worry me.
If you limit the amount of players then your on the slippery road to excluding those of a lesser ability. The session is the best place to learn, so keep it open to all. The more the merrier.

# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Mart

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

I guess too many depends on the attitudes of the players. I would guess anymore than 6-8 and the session becomes more of a social event. I do get nervious with that 6-8 group though. Like most intermediate players I make mistakes. In the huge groups my boo boos get lost in the crowd. In the 6-8 size, it seem to be magnified. I guess the alternative is to sit out those tunes. So, for a while at least until I learn the thirty or so songs that consistently pop up in a session I'll stick to the large jams.

# Posted on January 11th 2003 by jrathbun

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

I like your attitude, Mart!

# Posted on January 11th 2003 by Andee

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

Our (UK) Government has decided for us. Two maximum! (Moravian bass nose flute and Bodhran). Aaaarggh!

# Posted on January 11th 2003 by Geoff Pollitt

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

I should perhaps read the session etiquette book before I write this but it occurs to me that we on the very website post and list sessions all over almost like an invitation, if you're in the area, to attend. Is it not the point to be open to new people attending and participating? After reading this... I'm having second thoughts about rearranging my schedule so I can go to "Tea and Tunes" on Wednesday night. I'd probably be about the 12th fiddle player there... from what I read, that's too many. Perhaps my first shy instinct to stay away until appropriately invited is correct and I'll bide my time. (I'm mostly joking here but you get my point?)

# Posted on January 11th 2003 by ANNY

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

Geoff,
Don't forget, some (UK) court has decided that "two" means the same "two" people for the duration of the "entertainment". No devious goings-on whereby the Moravian bass note flute player goes home after an hour and is replaced by a didge player. This will be noticed and there will be a heavy knocking on the door early next morning...

trevor

# Posted on January 11th 2003 by Trevor Jennings

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

I agree with you on principle, Mart, but in practical, I just don't like playing when half the table is two measures ahead of the other end of the table, and no one can tell until the end of the set. That is too big. :)

zls

# Posted on January 11th 2003 by Zina Lee

Re: Best signal to take over the set

More annoying than the "set jumper-ins" are the "set owner" who starts a set then stops after one tune. Is that a waste of time or what?
Personally, if I hear a split second silence at the end of a few tunes or the said "set-owner" looks tired, I am straight in there with a similar, but different set - so don't hang about at the end of tunes!
I don't hog though, after a few tunes, I will stop near the end of the tune and pick up my pint. That is an undisputably unambiguous signal for someone else to take over the set.

# Posted on January 12th 2003 by geoffwright

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

I actually had a big session experience last night -its was horrid - I was playing along with another person and it was so loud I didnt realise till about the third time through that I was playing a totally different tune. I hate when that happens, on the subject of tunes - If a person starts a set it is theirs unless they dont want it. I hate it when someone steals my set - its irritating and happens all the time. And what I really hate is if someone does steal a set thats brilliant and then they play a stupid tune as if theyve not even put thought into it. Arrgghhh.

# Posted on January 12th 2003 by bb

Re: How Many In A Session is Too Many?

I just got back from our weekly Monday night slow session. It's all ITM. We average over
40 each Monday night. Tonight there were 42. Our record is 60!

It's difficult to explain the exhileration that one feels when that many people crank up on a tune.
Although the genre is totally different, it brings to mind the huge sound of the Morman
Tabernacle Choir.

But, we all start together, we all change together and we all end together. The group knows
200 tunes! It's quite an experience. It's all about focus and love of the music. [ And, BTW, no
rules. The group is largely self-policing]. Catch us if you're in Beantown. We'd love to have you
sit in. 7 - 9 PM at the Green Briar in Brighton. You won't forget the experience.

Regards,

Bill -- Boston
Boston's Original Slow Session - (BOSS)

# Posted on January 13th 2003 by bfirla

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