In light of Will's recent topic for discussion, one of the points raised was to describe the tune with more clarity, including where it's from.
Here I hit a slight predicament. Being on the Welsh/English border with mostly Scottish roots, playing with musicians who'll play anything they fancy, my best claim is to be able to tell Swedish and *British* music apart.
At risk of being sacrilegious and to have my point ripped apart; Scottish music has bite, Irish diddles (sorry!), Welsh music always seems a little random and I can't think of English music without imagining Cotswald morris dancers.
Is there (there must be) a more superior way of defining it?
Cait, I can't help you with these distinctions (you've described them pretty much how I think of the differences), but bear in mind that you don't have to know a tune's ethnic heritage to tell us who you learned it from, or what cd, or book, etc. To me at least, it's the *playing* source that's of primary importance, not where the tune originated. Although, if you know that with some certainty, it too is interesting.
For example, Ingonish is a Cape Breton tune, written by Mike McDougall, and that's worth knowing, but so is knowing that it has entered the Irish tradition in some circles, and was recorded by Altan (Island Angel), among others. If I posted it, I'd include all of this info (if I knew it), but most important to me would be that my setting would be based on Altan's from that cd. And that's what I really want to know when someone else posts a tune. It helps me gauge how likely it is for that setting to occur at sessions, and to make an educated guess on how to play it (stylistically speaking). Plus, I can go get the cd and listen to it. Ultimately, knowing that it's from Cape Breton doesn't help as much as knowing where other Irish players might be hearing it and learning it from. 'Cause that's who I'm likely to be playing it with.
Welsh tunes? Harp and fiddle mainly. The Welsh musicians probably travelled quite a lot so they picked up tunes from many sources. See my posting today deep down in the thread on "Let's Argue About Posting Tunes" (started today) for further details about Welsh hornpipes in particular.
Interesting stuff Trevor, I'll keep an eye put for some of these hornpipes appearing...though I think I'll wait for my broadband to be installed before I tackle that thread again.
Good point about the more obscure music dying off, if we don't give it an airing on forums such as this.
I don't really listen to much English music... but to stand up for the despised and downtrodden, there *are* some great English tunes! (listen to Eliza Carthy, Wood & Cutting, Kathryn Tickell)... But would I be anywhere near the mark in thinking that it is the even-ness of the meter which makes them sound a potentially a bit monotonous if you are used to Scottish or Irish music?
And in support of Welsh music - it does have an unflamboyant kind of nobility, which may not be immediately apparent if you are looking for something wild and exciting. It also has a deep vein of 'hiraeth'... variously translated as 'homesickness' or 'longing', maybe analagous to 'duende' in Spanish music. Or what is that thing called in Irish music? Droicht? Can somebody tell me what it is, and how it is spelt?
As thesession tends more towards the Irish side of things, I wouldn't want to inundate the tunes posting with unspecified random tunes unintentionally.
Kenn,
My understanding is that a lot of Scotsmen are going to Cape Breton to learn strathspeys because, due to 200 years of isolation, they play them in the old, nay original, style uncorrupted by the many influences that give Scottish music its so-called diversity. If you like diversity look into Donegal music. It is defined more by the variant forms (barn dances, mazurkas, strathspeys) than its reputed straight ahead playing style.
Donegal trawlermen, in the past, regularly went to fish off the Shetlands and there is a recognisable crossover between the styles if you listen and compare (so presumably they landed for a little R and R too).
Also I agree with Helen.... there are some great English tunes (look at the Playford Collection) but the real strength of the English tradition is in song, not tunes; the obvious exception being in Northumberland which has some great tunes as well.
In reply to Helen, I think you have got it right re the regularity and lack of exciting variation in English tunes that tend to give them a more intellectual rather than a holistic appeal.
In relation to your query re "droicht" I think you may be referring to "Dra
Scottish music has bite??? Aye perhaps with a set of false teeth. If you want bitten then come to a session here on the emerald isle to find out what it's really all about.
Scottish music reminds me of tartan shortbread boxes, roaming thru the gloamin, the scottish fiddle orchestra [Gawd help us all!!] and boys with skirts marching up and down a field pretending to be soldiers!
OK - so there is some good stuff - especially in the Highlands and Islands but how come so many scots musicians play exclusively diddley dee?? I go to a festival in Girvan every year and nearly all the musicians, who hail from all over GB and Ireland play IRISH music - the greatest genre of them all!
Alasdair Frasier says that he believes reels went from Ireland to Scotland and back to Ireland again. I don't know what he bases that on. But I believe it's pretty well documented that the Scottish influence in Donegal came from the bothy workers scooting over the water to Scotland to work and send money (and music) back home...
Blasphemy.
Blasphemy.
In light of Will's recent topic for discussion, one of the points raised was to describe the tune with more clarity, including where it's from.
Here I hit a slight predicament. Being on the Welsh/English border with mostly Scottish roots, playing with musicians who'll play anything they fancy, my best claim is to be able to tell Swedish and *British* music apart.
At risk of being sacrilegious and to have my point ripped apart; Scottish music has bite, Irish diddles (sorry!), Welsh music always seems a little random and I can't think of English music without imagining Cotswald morris dancers.
Is there (there must be) a more superior way of defining it?
~Cait
# Posted on January 7th 2003 by Caitriona
Re: Blasphemy.
Cait, I can't help you with these distinctions (you've described them pretty much how I think of the differences), but bear in mind that you don't have to know a tune's ethnic heritage to tell us who you learned it from, or what cd, or book, etc. To me at least, it's the *playing* source that's of primary importance, not where the tune originated. Although, if you know that with some certainty, it too is interesting.
For example, Ingonish is a Cape Breton tune, written by Mike McDougall, and that's worth knowing, but so is knowing that it has entered the Irish tradition in some circles, and was recorded by Altan (Island Angel), among others. If I posted it, I'd include all of this info (if I knew it), but most important to me would be that my setting would be based on Altan's from that cd. And that's what I really want to know when someone else posts a tune. It helps me gauge how likely it is for that setting to occur at sessions, and to make an educated guess on how to play it (stylistically speaking). Plus, I can go get the cd and listen to it. Ultimately, knowing that it's from Cape Breton doesn't help as much as knowing where other Irish players might be hearing it and learning it from. 'Cause that's who I'm likely to be playing it with.
# Posted on January 7th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Blasphemy.
You could always imagine what instrument the tunes appear to be most naturally composed for:
Irish - Irish pipes/Fiddle
Scottish - Scots pipes/Accordion
English - English Concertina (with excessive chording)
Welsh - Any offers?
# Posted on January 7th 2003 by Concertina Player
Re: Blasphemy.
Welsh tunes? Harp and fiddle mainly. The Welsh musicians probably travelled quite a lot so they picked up tunes from many sources. See my posting today deep down in the thread on "Let's Argue About Posting Tunes" (started today) for further details about Welsh hornpipes in particular.
trevor
# Posted on January 7th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Blasphemy.
Well, hmm, the topic is Blasphemy...
All right then:
Scottish music is like Braveheart, it's full of courage yet has no brains.
English music is like the eunugh, don't know what it has but do know what it's missing.
Didn't know there's such thing like Welsh music, but I make no apology since nobody knows about Dutch traditional music.
For the freaks among you who are curious: Dutch traditional music sounds like Dutch traditional food tastes.
Bart
# Posted on January 7th 2003 by Bart
Re: Blasphemy.
Interesting stuff Trevor, I'll keep an eye put for some of these hornpipes appearing...though I think I'll wait for my broadband to be installed before I tackle that thread again.
Good point about the more obscure music dying off, if we don't give it an airing on forums such as this.
# Posted on January 7th 2003 by Concertina Player
Re: Blasphemy.
Ha Ha, hilarious thread....
I love Scottish and Irish music, and the rest...
To me Scottish is open and proud, can be very uplifting, diverse (had lots of different influences), even Braveheart!
Irish is, yes, more diddly and inward looking, but in an intelectual way.....I often preffer it to Scottish....depending on the mood I'm in.....
Northumbrian, and Shetland etc. more barebones and unadulterated.........
English..... where's England?
# Posted on January 7th 2003 by Kenn
Re: Blasphemy.
Forgot about Cape Bretton, do they count? playing strathspeys like that?......(joke, sorry).
# Posted on January 7th 2003 by Kenn
Re: Blasphemy.
"Diddly, diddly-dee"
Spot the origin.
# Posted on January 7th 2003 by Gael Force
Re: Blasphemy.
I don't really listen to much English music... but to stand up for the despised and downtrodden, there *are* some great English tunes! (listen to Eliza Carthy, Wood & Cutting, Kathryn Tickell)... But would I be anywhere near the mark in thinking that it is the even-ness of the meter which makes them sound a potentially a bit monotonous if you are used to Scottish or Irish music?
And in support of Welsh music - it does have an unflamboyant kind of nobility, which may not be immediately apparent if you are looking for something wild and exciting. It also has a deep vein of 'hiraeth'... variously translated as 'homesickness' or 'longing', maybe analagous to 'duende' in Spanish music. Or what is that thing called in Irish music? Droicht? Can somebody tell me what it is, and how it is spelt?
# Posted on January 7th 2003 by Nell
Re: Blasphemy.
As thesession tends more towards the Irish side of things, I wouldn't want to inundate the tunes posting with unspecified random tunes unintentionally.
~Cait
# Posted on January 8th 2003 by Caitriona
Woah. I sound like such a pompous ass. =)
# Posted on January 8th 2003 by Caitriona
Re: Blasphemy.
Kenn,
My understanding is that a lot of Scotsmen are going to Cape Breton to learn strathspeys because, due to 200 years of isolation, they play them in the old, nay original, style uncorrupted by the many influences that give Scottish music its so-called diversity. If you like diversity look into Donegal music. It is defined more by the variant forms (barn dances, mazurkas, strathspeys) than its reputed straight ahead playing style.
# Posted on January 8th 2003 by AOG
Re: Blasphemy.
I guess it would follow AOG that donegal music has had more outside influences than other Irish music? I know little about Donegal style.
# Posted on January 8th 2003 by Kenn
Re: Blasphemy.
Donegal trawlermen, in the past, regularly went to fish off the Shetlands and there is a recognisable crossover between the styles if you listen and compare (so presumably they landed for a little R and R too).
Also I agree with Helen.... there are some great English tunes (look at the Playford Collection) but the real strength of the English tradition is in song, not tunes; the obvious exception being in Northumberland which has some great tunes as well.
# Posted on January 8th 2003 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Blasphemy.
In reply to Helen, I think you have got it right re the regularity and lack of exciting variation in English tunes that tend to give them a more intellectual rather than a holistic appeal.
In relation to your query re "droicht" I think you may be referring to "Dra
# Posted on January 8th 2003 by Coilin
Re: Blasphemy.
Thanks for the explanation, Coilin. I knew I'd have the odd vowel missing...
# Posted on January 9th 2003 by Nell
Re: Blasphemy.
Scottish music has bite??? Aye perhaps with a set of false teeth.
If you want bitten then come to a session here on the emerald isle to find out what it's really all about.
Scottish music reminds me of tartan shortbread boxes, roaming thru the gloamin, the scottish fiddle orchestra [Gawd help us all!!] and boys with skirts marching up and down a field pretending to be soldiers!
OK - so there is some good stuff - especially in the Highlands and Islands but how come so many scots musicians play exclusively diddley dee?? I go to a festival in Girvan every year and nearly all the musicians, who hail from all over GB and Ireland play IRISH music - the greatest genre of them all!
# Posted on January 9th 2003 by breandan
Re: Blasphemy.
Woah, Breandan!
Edinburgh rock aside,
"Scots music is generally preferred by the hardened folk musician who can appreciate more than just the notes going very fast."
Sidmouth 2001
Make of it what you will.
~Cait
# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Caitriona
Re: Blasphemy.
Alasdair Frasier says that he believes reels went from Ireland to Scotland and back to Ireland again. I don't know what he bases that on. But I believe it's pretty well documented that the Scottish influence in Donegal came from the bothy workers scooting over the water to Scotland to work and send money (and music) back home...
Zina
# Posted on January 10th 2003 by Zina Lee