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Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
I play a small bit of backing on guitar (some DADGAD and normal tuning) and octave mandola (GDAE and GDAD). It's mostly just based around the standard major, minor and modal chords. I would know what to stick where but I would like to do a bit more with it. I havn't attempted bass runs or other types of chord (sus chords, 9ths etc). I have a good deal of musical knowledge when it comes to theory (or at least enough to understand what someone is talking about and comprehend new explanations...I think so anyway).
So, after looking up resources on the internet I've thought about buying some tutorials and books. But maybe lessons is the way to go? I'd hope to get lessons in the near future but how could I advance in the mean time?
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
"just learn the tunes " ....I used to have a math teacher who said the same thing (cept it was math!) so I had to get grinds ( private lessons ) Then I learnt how to do them and where I was going wrong ! "Just learn the math" didnt help me at all !
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Yeahbut, I think Dow's right. There simply IS no substitute for knowing what you intend to accompany. This coming from a purely melody player, I know, but the tune is king. Everything else fits round it. Or should.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Yep -- Dow's spot on. You gotta know the tunes. It also helps to know the instrument well enough to know what you can do with it regarding each tune. From there, you can play with the backing as you and the group want, given the context of the music. An example is starting the first time through a tune in a subdued manner, letting the melody ride predominant...the second time through, add more energy to the backing, letting the music build...this can set the stage for a third time through with added instruments, harmony, more energy, or wherever you want to take the tune.
Have fun! But learn the tunes, and know the instrument.
Paul
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
I think what Dow means...and I fully agree with him, when he says learn the tunes,... because I tell people who ask for lessons the same thing. I think the full explanation will give you more of a roadmap though....
Whatever the key is, is only half the battle. Yes, learn the proper chords for each key, but it is never enough, even if you are lucky enough to have someone shout the key at you (they usually don't, the other thing I tell people is that you have to be a mindreader!!) they will never take the time to convey to you (nor should they, they are there to play not to teach) that it may be in D but starts on the G note or the second part has a B minor tossed in etc.
So to learning the tunes is the only real way to keep up to snuff playing out. You don't go get a tune book and learn to read music and memorize the tunes, that doesn't work. The best way is to sit at home with a few good CDs, someone you'd love to be playing with. You can slow them down if it helps, and just practice and experiment.
Better still, if there is a session you like to go to, tape the session tunes. Work with those so you know the usual repertoire. Keep playing along, and you will ultimately know what twist or turn comes next in this or that tune or set they play.
It's not good to rely on others to tell you the key. It is most of the time right only for the first tune in a set anyway. Sometimes they tell you wrong too, or not what the two following tunes go into. The music takes on a life of its own and starts flowing fast, and people forget that you need to know a key change, they don't even look at you. It really is your job to know the music, not theirs to keep telling you. I often laugh when all night they say nothing, then one time someone says...this is in D. Why Then??? With enough practice you will develop a feel for what different keys sound like, to the point hopefully, that you will be right there with the rest of the players.
When I say you have to be a mindreader, this is what I mean, they just don't tell you. I am not really a mindreader, but when I know a tune is going into the next, I do pause for a split second, and hear the change in most cases correctly and instantly. This is after 43 years of playing, it becomes almost an instinct, and after that I generally recognize the tune. If you are just getting started, maybe wait out a bar of music, instead of trying to go for a split second. Try and use that time to figure it out or use the most silent of strums with your ear to the instrument to see if you guessed the right key. If you can't get it, sit it out. When you do get it, sometimes, it makes for a nice dramatic entry to come in the second time through...if it's right!! So go practice at home is all. And enjoy it, don't make it a job... make it your relaxation and pleasure, and just love it. You have to love it to make it work.
I believe this is what Dow means by learn the tunes?? It's my take on it anyway.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Yep, learn the tunes. It's not atall the same as learn the maths. You don't get an understanding of maths just by parrot fashion, but you will learning tunes. Not at first, but it will come. Sorry mate, it's "learn the tunes"
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Ok, thanks everyone. I'm always working on a couple of tunes on my banjo so the repertoire is contantly growing. I get what irisnevins means about the whole "instinct" for keys. I kind of know what key a tune is in by hearing it as it has a certain mood and I usually know if an odd chord is thrown in. It helps a lot. Thanks mate.
In the meantime, I think I'll stick to figuring stuff out via music cds.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
I don't think the discussion here is doing justice to PaddyCmusic's request. I haven't figured out the whole accompaniment thing myself so I can see what the challenge is.
Learn the tunes: Absolutely, no question. How about this - don't try to accompany a tune in a session unless you know it very well and have worked out what the accompaniment should be in advance. No different really than telling a melody player "No noodling."
So that's out of the way. But you're still left with a novice who wants to know how to figure out a good accompaniment to the tunes he now knows very well. And I think that's the point of Paddy's question (or if it isn't, its a very good question.) So back to his question:
What would be good tutorials and/or books to learn this skill prior to taking lessons?
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Learning the tunes is only the first step. Once you know the tunes, or at least can hear the phrases in your head, then you can play with the chords. But that's just the second step. You have to stitch the changes together, and that requires a knowledge of runs, passing notes and chords, and when to play what chords to help make the melody pop. Then, once you have an idea of what you're doing there, you can work on melodic, chordal, and rythymic variations (e.g., substituted chords, drones, stops, inversions, etc.).
I'm no real expert, but I've played contra and ceili dances for a long time, dance and theater performances, and a lot of sessions. I learned most of what I've learned though listening and experimentation. Listen to the best players carefully, and play with the most open-minded musicians you can find. They're the ones who are going to encourage you to play out, experiment, and make mistakes, and not chide you for being not traditional enough, or for daring to push the envelope.
Accompaniment of Celtic traditional music is still evolving, and there's no one that's defined the ultimate style yet. As a friend of mine used to say, just blow.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Learn the tunes, as everyone has said.
And don't be stupid and wait until you are in your late 40s to start taking lessons (do as I say, not as I did). There is no substitute for a good teacher, who can see and correct problems with your playing that you didn't know existed.
And, LEARN THE RHYTHMS. For some reason, this is not brought up enough on this site (may be tied up with the bodhran-phobia so many folks display). We talk lots about chord structures, melody, moving basses, etc, but we tend not to appreciate how much a good accompanist can add to the proceedings with different approaches to rhythm, different accents, dynamics, etc. The melodies are great, but the 'lift' that gives this music its life is in the rhythm.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
As Al said, definately the most important part of an accompaniment is the right hand, if it's not tight there then it's never going to sound good. And I don't just mean "DUD for jigs and DUDU for reels" - knowing the rhythm of a tune is equally if not more important than knowing the actual notes. MANY (not all, or even most) dance tunes (or tunes written in the style) have a fairly basic common set of cadences and a listen through to the tune will often tell you whether or not it could be accompanied with a generic chord sequence. If so, then run with that and the subsitutions of that sequence.
Next thing would be learn your triad inversions - far more useful than extended chords - with the bass on both the low E and A strings. Added chords (eg suspended second and fourth) are useful for creating tension although tension and release are more relevant in an arrangement than in a session. Using V chord as a dominant seven suspended 4th chord works quite well though, particularly as it also implies the I chord so fits the end of a 8 bar phrase.
Extended chords are generally best used when arranged into pieces, there's always a risk of semitone clashes if you don't know precisely what notes are in a section. Then there's all the altered chord stuff (best left alone unless it's what people actually want - not a something you can find out in a session), passing chords/notes, quartal harmony etc etc.
Learning the tunes (to the point of being able to sing them certainly, being able to flatpick them at session speed is a bit over the top unless you want to) is sound advice, so is playing quietly and practicing to an unaccompanied CD (not one with a guitar part already in it, it'll narrow the options of chords availible to you). Arranging using notation software can open up some interesting unexplored channels too. And maybe ditch DADGAD for drop-D or even just standard tuning - there's alot more very skilled and theoretically minded musicians playing other forms of music and using techniques that you can apply to trad in standard tuning, and writing books / giving lessons about how to do it - some of the most useful lessons I ever had were with a jazz guitarist.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Ok everyone says learn the tunes which is of course right but no one has explained how learning the tunes can help you get the right chords.
Once you learn a tune you will notice that lots of the melody lines make up arpeggios of chords so that way you will be able to work out the right chords and substitutions in those sections. This is particularly useful when you come across one of the MANY tunes which have unusual harmonic changes. It is simply wrong to say there is a harmonic formula that most tunes will fit into. Very few tunes in fact have the exact same harmonic structure. Once you get used to some of the usual key and mode changes you will notice they crop up a lot but often at different points in tunes. Once your ear gets familiar with this process then you'll end up being able to spontaneously accompany tunes you may never have heard before.
It's all about ear development, being able to recognise keys, rhythms, odd beats, unusual chords changes etc.
There is a really common thing happening nowadays where people try to do the Donogh Hennessy thing of jazzy chords and syncopated rhythms, i.e. accenting before the beat and so on, but this only really works for that particular style so be careful not to fall into the trap of just copying people. Donogh Hennessy is great at what he does but most of his imitators aren't!
Develop your own style, learn the tunes for their rhythmic and harmonic content. I've you've got a good theoretical knowledge you will be able to figure out chords from the melody line, sometimes they will be unusual modal chords you may never have thought of.
As someone said trad accompaniment is an evolving art and as such there is no definite way of doing it, but there are definite ways of not doing it! So avoid the cliche of bashing away at the three chord trick for every tune, i.e. if the tune is in D that doesn't mean the only chords you use are D, G and A!
Overall if you learn to use your ears, you're half way there.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Frisbee... brilliant points.... mostly the one about formulas. I find beginners, or those a little way into it, they think you can tell them a formula and that will apply to all the tunes. There is no formula they will all follow.... though many tunes do follow a somewhat predictable pattern or a variety of patterns, and with a lot of experience, you ear will get trained to recognize them and therefore you can quickly start to pick up on and accompany well, tunes you never heard before. And usually, the second time through the tune you can often really get it very well. A good memory helps too... really listen to the new tune the first go through. Remember the spots where it deviates from the normal predictable chords or notes or keys.
Too often people pick up guitar thinking they can't play well enough to play a melody instrument. They think it will be easy, they have no idea how unstructured it is as compared to a melody instrument. It is not easy because there is no formula, no road map, you do what you feel at the moment as long as it fits the music. It can be a real free float thing, weaving in and out of the melody in different ways at different points in a tune, like an undertow... just moving it.
There's a lot of the jazzy chord thing going on these days, and when done well, really can add a lot of excitement and drive to the melody. Personally, I don't like to play them, not my thing at all. Sometimes I like to listen to it though in a performance in a high energy and well rehearsed band, but find it often really dominates and wrecks a session when done with the usual hard driving strumming. It can really drown out other players and I know many who grimace when people play that way...esp. if not good at it!!
And true... developing your own style is a good thing. Even if some hate it, and some always will, LOL. Others will love it. If enough hate it you can assume you'd better change course. I think the best way to do that, is learn the basics from a book or teacher if you like, then take yourself into isolation, with your session tapes or CDs, and experiment like mad. Where no one can laugh at you!! If it sounds good take it out into the world and see what happens. Or try it on a melody playing friend first.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
It's all been said before to some extent and learning the tunes or at least familiarising yourself with as many tunes as possible, is essential. But I think listening is even more important and if you listen enough you will hopefully become acquainted with a fair number of tunes in the process. The listening is about hearing how others accompany and how their accompaniment fits with the melody. If you do this you will become reasonably well acquainted with those melodies.
Get unaccompanied recordings and if you can't find any in the shops ask a friend to play some tunes into a recorder so you can go home and practice along with the recording. Then maybe try recording your accomapaniment (overdub) to see what it sounds like. If you have been listening enough and educating your ear you will become your own best teacher and judge. I cringe at things I recorded 5 years ago and maybe even some of the things I did last weekend.
Another thing I did at first was to play from sheet music (very slowly admittedly) using the fingers to play the melody and picking out a bass line with the thumb as a means of exploring the possible harmony in the music.
Lastly even a brilliant tune player who knows every tune can't do guitar accompaniment unless they learn the guitar - duh! So a bit of proficiency on the instrument is another brick in the wall.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Oh and BTW the other Donogh - the Hennessy one was the guitarist in the group Lunasa.
The real good advice around here for accompaniment will always come from Iris!!
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Learn the tune? Learn the guitar? What cr*p advice.
Don't let 'em kid you, PaddyC. The real secret is to practice air guitar in front of a mirror until you get that "windmill" strum down pat, then head over to your local session with a real instrument. They'll love you.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Thanks for the advice lads. I know that I need more practice on the instument and, as I havn't got my guitar for the last few weeks (another guy needs it more than I do right now), I havn't had the oppurtunity but I think I'll expierement with some recordings for tunes I already know from the banjo. In time, like I said, I'll get lessons but some stuff here has been important advice/info to me and I'll take it all into account. Just need to get back the guitar....
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
frisbee raises good points--for an accompanist, learning the tune means not only learning the melody, but identifying the tone that the tune centers on, the implied chord structure, other less likely but interesting chord options, how other accompanists you might play with approach things.
And as irisnevens said, some people come to accompaniment because they think it is easy----ha, the joke is on them, and they are generally the ones that inflict pain on those around them.
And andy had some good stuff to say, at least what I understood of it--he obviously knows far more about theory than I do!!!
I am not sure if anyone brought it up yet in this thread, but our fellow TheSession mate 'coyotebanjo' has written a great book/CD set on accompaniment, and has a website with a lot of his advice. Look up his member info, and there will be links to follow.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Just to clarify my point about the similarity of chord sequences in tunes - I didn't mean that all or even the majority of tunes could be accompanied with a harmonic formula, however there are some things which are sufficiently common harmonic movements for them to be considered "standard". For example, having a part of a tune end V-I is fairly common - due to the fact that the perfect candence is one of the most easily recognised and as such tells dancers when to change / repeat the last sequence. While it's not something that anyone should use much of the time, sequences based upon a I-IV-V (or I-V-I-IV-V-I or any of the permutations possible in 8 bars) do make up quite a lot of tunes. The overwhelming majority of tunes will at the stay in the same mode for at least 8 bars.
Re: "modal chords" - do you mean extended chords (anything with a 9th, 13th ect in it), altered chords (chords that have notes in that aren't in the scale you're in), or diads (chords that only have root and fifth in them)?
Re: the use of "jazzy" chords - it seems to me to be a matter of personal opinion, however there are many people who can use them well and in my experience you'd be unlikely to get grimaces provided the chords fit, the rhythm's tight and the volume's suitable - no matter how you like to play.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Thanks Donough.... I just live to back this music, I know it sounds kinda silly and taking a subservient role to some, but I do fingerstyle tune playing as well, though if I had to choose, I'd choose backing. It's like breathing to me, a whole different experience from playing melody, once you really know where what sounds live where on the fingerboard, whether by ear or music theory or whatever your chosen method, you can just carry the music here and there on a whim, it's very exciting to me and a very emotional experience if that makes any sense.
What's great to hear in a great backer, is the element of surprise at times, they do something unexpected, it will momentarily change the mood of the melody, then pull it back in, and if done right, it's a subtle thing, not an in your face thing, and as I always say, people are NOT listening to you (usually, unless they are other backers trying to see what you're doing) they are listeneing to the fiddle or whatever, but they should sense a shift or a mood change going on behind the music. This should be done in a way to BRING OUT the melody player, not so you can get an "oh wow" from someone, or to take them away from the melody. You are just there, sort of unnoticed until you stop, then they should notice you are gone and something is missing. That to me is the goal in backing.
Andy...the jazz chords..., I really like them in Lunasa, they fit there. I have hit one or two in my life, but they don't suit my style one bit. What's really awful is two guitars at a session, one doing jazz chords, the other not.....ughhhhh.... I will drop out at that point, or we can switch off. Some guitars or backers can play well together and not conflict, but that sounds like a mess!!
the other thing that drive me to the bring of insanity at a session (but..yes.. sessions are open, and not to be orchestrated, that's the fun of them in spite of some musical conflict) is a backer hitting on the off beat. Sometimes a fiddler will...don't know if there's a term for this, but bring the bow back after a note, so there is no space there.... and then you might hit that too as a backer... but the compulsion some have to fill in the spaces with a strum... maybe just personal taste, but it's torture to listen too, like "here I am" between the notes. Leave the spaces be where they belong, stay with the beat of the melody, is just my idea of good backing, even if it's three chord strumming, nothing fancy, that works really well if it stays with the melody.
OK... got to get some work done today!... I know my posts are WAY too long. Sorry!
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
"Yeahbut, I think Dow's right."
Yeahbutnobutyeahbut, I think he *is* right, in saying, "Learn the tunes" but *just* learning the tunes is not enough. If it were, then all great tune players would be great backers, which ain't the case. I think having experience and appreciation of music that is founded on chord progressions - e.g. rock, jazz, classical - is a great help, if not essential. Whilst I would not call myself a backer of any description, finding adequate, if unimagintive, chords to a tune is second nature to me (although, *playing* them is another cache of fiddles altogether) - and I put this down to playing the piano from early childhood until my late teens, with a little classical tuition and a lot of attempting (with limited success) to play rock, blues, jazz and 'other'. Learning tunes gives you a feel for melody, but for chord-backing, you need a feel for harmony as well. Classical harmony theory (or jazz theory, which, I think, is fundamentally the same thing, only extended in a different direction) can be useful, but only if you either have a very sharp ear and quick* brain and can apply all its principles faultlessly, or you already have a feel for harmony - preferably both.
*Quickness is imperative for a backer, since you have to consider 4-6 (perhaps more, if you play a keyboard instrument) notes at once, not just one or two, like a melody player. My problem is transferring the chords I hear in my head to my fingers - by the time I have got all my fingers in the right places, it's usually time for the next chord.
Re: jazzy chords - I'll second andy_n. All chords are good in their proper places. Some sound very wrong, some sound just a bit iffy, but sometimes you'll hear the most audacious chord used to great effect and you'll wonder how its perpetrator ever got away with it.
By the way, I went to see Waterson Carthy last night in Newtown, Wales. What a guitarist Martin Carthy is. He doesn't come up often in the 'Who's best?' discussions that rear their ugly threads here periodically, perhaps because his style is somehow quintessentially English and does not have much to do with Irish music, but I would class him as one of the great traditional guitarists of these Isles.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Spoon.... I absolutley IDOLIZE Martin Carthy. Irish name, English player. The Watersons, esp. since he joined long ago, what a powerful sound.
He was if anyone (I learned to play basically in isolation since age 11) my biggest influence in backing.... and John Renbourne my biggest in tune playing. I first heard them both in 1971 when I went over to England, a ragtime player, and came back playing Celtic trad a year later. My guitarist friend I stayed with at first, he was entranced with the American rags... like we swapped personlaities!
Carthy playing fingerstlye, he has such strong attack, I knew that's what I wanted long ago... I do not play like him soundwise, but did adapt that strong attack mainly on the bass notes, and get very good volume (though not to overpower the melody....I do know my place, LOL) for backing even though a finger player.
The attack is the thing, Carthy knows what notes to pull out, to stress, when to lie low a bit, when to jump back in. He is an absolute genius. He does get little mention here being an English player. I could not believe my ears the first time I heard him. He just about rearranged all my molecules!! I swear I was a different person after hearing him, like the lights went on!
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Of course one should learn the tunes.
But without proper rhythm what's the point?
Good guitar backing knows the beat of the music, not just the notes. When guitar backing lacks a strong pulse, it's not doing the job. I venture that good rhythmic guitar backing can lift
even unfamiliar tunes, if the guitarist has enough knowledge of the types of twists and turns that may occur in this music along with the ability to adjust the rhythm accordingly.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Right halfwaythere,,,, it all has to add up.
I still think the best way is to tape the session you go to regularly, and practice to it. If you can find a teacher or workshop or good book, go for it. This way you will be in sync with those you play with and they will be happier to see you walk in if you know their usual sets.
Don't let any of this stuff we're all saying overwhelm or intimidate you. If you love the music, love the instrument, it will be pleasure and relaxation to "Practice". It's strange how things happen, you can struggle for a year, and then suddenly, snap... you get it and jump a level. Like all the repitition suddenly gets encoded in your brain and fingers.
We're all, even very long time and experienced players, struggling to get to the next level. There is always a next level, and maybe that part of the adventure and fun of it. Just keep plugging away. The joy in being part of the overall sound, and having the melody players want you there, it's very satisfying and worth all the work you put in. You have many years to jump leaps and bounds in this, so just go for it.
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Paddy,
Chris Smith's book/Cd, " Celtic Backup for All Instrumentalists" is a good read if you're looking for some printed material. Lots of good ideas and jumping off points.
I'll also second what other folks have been saying about the importance of the right hand (assuming you're a rightie). As John Doyle said in a class I was in, "it doesn't matter how good your chords are if you've got a crap right hand" (or words to that effect).
Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
I play a small bit of backing on guitar (some DADGAD and normal tuning) and octave mandola (GDAE and GDAD). It's mostly just based around the standard major, minor and modal chords. I would know what to stick where but I would like to do a bit more with it. I havn't attempted bass runs or other types of chord (sus chords, 9ths etc). I have a good deal of musical knowledge when it comes to theory (or at least enough to understand what someone is talking about and comprehend new explanations...I think so anyway).
So, after looking up resources on the internet I've thought about buying some tutorials and books. But maybe lessons is the way to go? I'd hope to get lessons in the near future but how could I advance in the mean time?
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by 52Paddy
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
just learn the tunes
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
"just learn the tunes " ....I used to have a math teacher who said the same thing (cept it was math!) so I had to get grinds ( private lessons ) Then I learnt how to do them and where I was going wrong ! "Just learn the math" didnt help me at all !
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Sheller
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Yeahbut, I think Dow's right. There simply IS no substitute for knowing what you intend to accompany. This coming from a purely melody player, I know, but the tune is king. Everything else fits round it. Or should.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Of course the tune comes first , or else there would be no second.
Hows the guy gonna learn if ya tell him ...Just learn the tune !
.....if you give a man a fish you feed him for a day. But if you SHOW him how to fish , you feed him for a lifetime ...
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Sheller
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Yep -- Dow's spot on. You gotta know the tunes. It also helps to know the instrument well enough to know what you can do with it regarding each tune. From there, you can play with the backing as you and the group want, given the context of the music. An example is starting the first time through a tune in a subdued manner, letting the melody ride predominant...the second time through, add more energy to the backing, letting the music build...this can set the stage for a third time through with added instruments, harmony, more energy, or wherever you want to take the tune.
Have fun! But learn the tunes, and know the instrument.
Paul
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by pn5jn
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
I thought if you taught a man to fish, he goes out and buys an ugly hat!
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by pn5jn
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
I think what Dow means...and I fully agree with him, when he says learn the tunes,... because I tell people who ask for lessons the same thing. I think the full explanation will give you more of a roadmap though....
Whatever the key is, is only half the battle. Yes, learn the proper chords for each key, but it is never enough, even if you are lucky enough to have someone shout the key at you (they usually don't, the other thing I tell people is that you have to be a mindreader!!) they will never take the time to convey to you (nor should they, they are there to play not to teach) that it may be in D but starts on the G note or the second part has a B minor tossed in etc.
So to learning the tunes is the only real way to keep up to snuff playing out. You don't go get a tune book and learn to read music and memorize the tunes, that doesn't work. The best way is to sit at home with a few good CDs, someone you'd love to be playing with. You can slow them down if it helps, and just practice and experiment.
Better still, if there is a session you like to go to, tape the session tunes. Work with those so you know the usual repertoire. Keep playing along, and you will ultimately know what twist or turn comes next in this or that tune or set they play.
It's not good to rely on others to tell you the key. It is most of the time right only for the first tune in a set anyway. Sometimes they tell you wrong too, or not what the two following tunes go into. The music takes on a life of its own and starts flowing fast, and people forget that you need to know a key change, they don't even look at you. It really is your job to know the music, not theirs to keep telling you. I often laugh when all night they say nothing, then one time someone says...this is in D. Why Then??? With enough practice you will develop a feel for what different keys sound like, to the point hopefully, that you will be right there with the rest of the players.
When I say you have to be a mindreader, this is what I mean, they just don't tell you. I am not really a mindreader, but when I know a tune is going into the next, I do pause for a split second, and hear the change in most cases correctly and instantly. This is after 43 years of playing, it becomes almost an instinct, and after that I generally recognize the tune. If you are just getting started, maybe wait out a bar of music, instead of trying to go for a split second. Try and use that time to figure it out or use the most silent of strums with your ear to the instrument to see if you guessed the right key. If you can't get it, sit it out. When you do get it, sometimes, it makes for a nice dramatic entry to come in the second time through...if it's right!! So go practice at home is all. And enjoy it, don't make it a job... make it your relaxation and pleasure, and just love it. You have to love it to make it work.
I believe this is what Dow means by learn the tunes?? It's my take on it anyway.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Hey Irishnevins ......I would imagine that was very helpful to "PaddyCmusic " you should take up fishing He ! He!
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Sheller
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Yep, learn the tunes. It's not atall the same as learn the maths. You don't get an understanding of maths just by parrot fashion, but you will learning tunes. Not at first, but it will come. Sorry mate, it's "learn the tunes"
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Ok, thanks everyone. I'm always working on a couple of tunes on my banjo so the repertoire is contantly growing. I get what irisnevins means about the whole "instinct" for keys. I kind of know what key a tune is in by hearing it as it has a certain mood and I usually know if an odd chord is thrown in. It helps a lot. Thanks mate.
In the meantime, I think I'll stick to figuring stuff out via music cds.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by 52Paddy
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
I don't think the discussion here is doing justice to PaddyCmusic's request. I haven't figured out the whole accompaniment thing myself so I can see what the challenge is.
Learn the tunes: Absolutely, no question. How about this - don't try to accompany a tune in a session unless you know it very well and have worked out what the accompaniment should be in advance. No different really than telling a melody player "No noodling."
So that's out of the way. But you're still left with a novice who wants to know how to figure out a good accompaniment to the tunes he now knows very well. And I think that's the point of Paddy's question (or if it isn't, its a very good question.) So back to his question:
What would be good tutorials and/or books to learn this skill prior to taking lessons?
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by grego
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Learning the tunes is only the first step. Once you know the tunes, or at least can hear the phrases in your head, then you can play with the chords. But that's just the second step. You have to stitch the changes together, and that requires a knowledge of runs, passing notes and chords, and when to play what chords to help make the melody pop. Then, once you have an idea of what you're doing there, you can work on melodic, chordal, and rythymic variations (e.g., substituted chords, drones, stops, inversions, etc.).
I'm no real expert, but I've played contra and ceili dances for a long time, dance and theater performances, and a lot of sessions. I learned most of what I've learned though listening and experimentation. Listen to the best players carefully, and play with the most open-minded musicians you can find. They're the ones who are going to encourage you to play out, experiment, and make mistakes, and not chide you for being not traditional enough, or for daring to push the envelope.
Accompaniment of Celtic traditional music is still evolving, and there's no one that's defined the ultimate style yet. As a friend of mine used to say, just blow.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Learn the tunes, as everyone has said.
And don't be stupid and wait until you are in your late 40s to start taking lessons (do as I say, not as I did). There is no substitute for a good teacher, who can see and correct problems with your playing that you didn't know existed.
And, LEARN THE RHYTHMS. For some reason, this is not brought up enough on this site (may be tied up with the bodhran-phobia so many folks display). We talk lots about chord structures, melody, moving basses, etc, but we tend not to appreciate how much a good accompanist can add to the proceedings with different approaches to rhythm, different accents, dynamics, etc. The melodies are great, but the 'lift' that gives this music its life is in the rhythm.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
As Al said, definately the most important part of an accompaniment is the right hand, if it's not tight there then it's never going to sound good. And I don't just mean "DUD for jigs and DUDU for reels" - knowing the rhythm of a tune is equally if not more important than knowing the actual notes. MANY (not all, or even most) dance tunes (or tunes written in the style) have a fairly basic common set of cadences and a listen through to the tune will often tell you whether or not it could be accompanied with a generic chord sequence. If so, then run with that and the subsitutions of that sequence.
Next thing would be learn your triad inversions - far more useful than extended chords - with the bass on both the low E and A strings. Added chords (eg suspended second and fourth) are useful for creating tension although tension and release are more relevant in an arrangement than in a session. Using V chord as a dominant seven suspended 4th chord works quite well though, particularly as it also implies the I chord so fits the end of a 8 bar phrase.
Extended chords are generally best used when arranged into pieces, there's always a risk of semitone clashes if you don't know precisely what notes are in a section. Then there's all the altered chord stuff (best left alone unless it's what people actually want - not a something you can find out in a session), passing chords/notes, quartal harmony etc etc.
Learning the tunes (to the point of being able to sing them certainly, being able to flatpick them at session speed is a bit over the top unless you want to) is sound advice, so is playing quietly and practicing to an unaccompanied CD (not one with a guitar part already in it, it'll narrow the options of chords availible to you). Arranging using notation software can open up some interesting unexplored channels too. And maybe ditch DADGAD for drop-D or even just standard tuning - there's alot more very skilled and theoretically minded musicians playing other forms of music and using techniques that you can apply to trad in standard tuning, and writing books / giving lessons about how to do it - some of the most useful lessons I ever had were with a jazz guitarist.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Andy V
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Ok everyone says learn the tunes which is of course right but no one has explained how learning the tunes can help you get the right chords.
Once you learn a tune you will notice that lots of the melody lines make up arpeggios of chords so that way you will be able to work out the right chords and substitutions in those sections. This is particularly useful when you come across one of the MANY tunes which have unusual harmonic changes. It is simply wrong to say there is a harmonic formula that most tunes will fit into. Very few tunes in fact have the exact same harmonic structure. Once you get used to some of the usual key and mode changes you will notice they crop up a lot but often at different points in tunes. Once your ear gets familiar with this process then you'll end up being able to spontaneously accompany tunes you may never have heard before.
It's all about ear development, being able to recognise keys, rhythms, odd beats, unusual chords changes etc.
There is a really common thing happening nowadays where people try to do the Donogh Hennessy thing of jazzy chords and syncopated rhythms, i.e. accenting before the beat and so on, but this only really works for that particular style so be careful not to fall into the trap of just copying people. Donogh Hennessy is great at what he does but most of his imitators aren't!
Develop your own style, learn the tunes for their rhythmic and harmonic content. I've you've got a good theoretical knowledge you will be able to figure out chords from the melody line, sometimes they will be unusual modal chords you may never have thought of.
As someone said trad accompaniment is an evolving art and as such there is no definite way of doing it, but there are definite ways of not doing it! So avoid the cliche of bashing away at the three chord trick for every tune, i.e. if the tune is in D that doesn't mean the only chords you use are D, G and A!
Overall if you learn to use your ears, you're half way there.
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by The Tune Composer
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Good advice, frisbee. I was going to chatter about arpeggios, but my post was getting a bit long.
Who is Donogh Hennessy?
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Frisbee... brilliant points.... mostly the one about formulas. I find beginners, or those a little way into it, they think you can tell them a formula and that will apply to all the tunes. There is no formula they will all follow.... though many tunes do follow a somewhat predictable pattern or a variety of patterns, and with a lot of experience, you ear will get trained to recognize them and therefore you can quickly start to pick up on and accompany well, tunes you never heard before. And usually, the second time through the tune you can often really get it very well. A good memory helps too... really listen to the new tune the first go through. Remember the spots where it deviates from the normal predictable chords or notes or keys.
Too often people pick up guitar thinking they can't play well enough to play a melody instrument. They think it will be easy, they have no idea how unstructured it is as compared to a melody instrument. It is not easy because there is no formula, no road map, you do what you feel at the moment as long as it fits the music. It can be a real free float thing, weaving in and out of the melody in different ways at different points in a tune, like an undertow... just moving it.
There's a lot of the jazzy chord thing going on these days, and when done well, really can add a lot of excitement and drive to the melody. Personally, I don't like to play them, not my thing at all. Sometimes I like to listen to it though in a performance in a high energy and well rehearsed band, but find it often really dominates and wrecks a session when done with the usual hard driving strumming. It can really drown out other players and I know many who grimace when people play that way...esp. if not good at it!!
And true... developing your own style is a good thing. Even if some hate it, and some always will, LOL. Others will love it. If enough hate it you can assume you'd better change course. I think the best way to do that, is learn the basics from a book or teacher if you like, then take yourself into isolation, with your session tapes or CDs, and experiment like mad. Where no one can laugh at you!! If it sounds good take it out into the world and see what happens. Or try it on a melody playing friend first.
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
It's all been said before to some extent and learning the tunes or at least familiarising yourself with as many tunes as possible, is essential. But I think listening is even more important and if you listen enough you will hopefully become acquainted with a fair number of tunes in the process. The listening is about hearing how others accompany and how their accompaniment fits with the melody. If you do this you will become reasonably well acquainted with those melodies.
Get unaccompanied recordings and if you can't find any in the shops ask a friend to play some tunes into a recorder so you can go home and practice along with the recording. Then maybe try recording your accomapaniment (overdub) to see what it sounds like. If you have been listening enough and educating your ear you will become your own best teacher and judge. I cringe at things I recorded 5 years ago and maybe even some of the things I did last weekend.
Another thing I did at first was to play from sheet music (very slowly admittedly) using the fingers to play the melody and picking out a bass line with the thumb as a means of exploring the possible harmony in the music.
Lastly even a brilliant tune player who knows every tune can't do guitar accompaniment unless they learn the guitar - duh! So a bit of proficiency on the instrument is another brick in the wall.
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by Donough
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Oh and BTW the other Donogh - the Hennessy one was the guitarist in the group Lunasa.
The real good advice around here for accompaniment will always come from Iris!!
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by Donough
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Learn the tune? Learn the guitar? What cr*p advice.
Don't let 'em kid you, PaddyC. The real secret is to practice air guitar in front of a mirror until you get that "windmill" strum down pat, then head over to your local session with a real instrument. They'll love you.
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by cuchulain54
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Thanks for the advice lads. I know that I need more practice on the instument and, as I havn't got my guitar for the last few weeks (another guy needs it more than I do right now), I havn't had the oppurtunity but I think I'll expierement with some recordings for tunes I already know from the banjo. In time, like I said, I'll get lessons but some stuff here has been important advice/info to me and I'll take it all into account. Just need to get back the guitar....
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by 52Paddy
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
also listen to many great players and try to figure out what they're doing
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by ecidralla
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
frisbee raises good points--for an accompanist, learning the tune means not only learning the melody, but identifying the tone that the tune centers on, the implied chord structure, other less likely but interesting chord options, how other accompanists you might play with approach things.
And as irisnevens said, some people come to accompaniment because they think it is easy----ha, the joke is on them, and they are generally the ones that inflict pain on those around them.
And andy had some good stuff to say, at least what I understood of it--he obviously knows far more about theory than I do!!!
I am not sure if anyone brought it up yet in this thread, but our fellow TheSession mate 'coyotebanjo' has written a great book/CD set on accompaniment, and has a website with a lot of his advice. Look up his member info, and there will be links to follow.
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
He actually sent me that link in an email recently. Thanks for mentioning it.
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by 52Paddy
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
I would also suggest coyotebanjo's book that AlBrown speaks of Its good sound advice and helpful for what ever tuning you play in.
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by timK
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Just to clarify my point about the similarity of chord sequences in tunes - I didn't mean that all or even the majority of tunes could be accompanied with a harmonic formula, however there are some things which are sufficiently common harmonic movements for them to be considered "standard". For example, having a part of a tune end V-I is fairly common - due to the fact that the perfect candence is one of the most easily recognised and as such tells dancers when to change / repeat the last sequence. While it's not something that anyone should use much of the time, sequences based upon a I-IV-V (or I-V-I-IV-V-I or any of the permutations possible in 8 bars) do make up quite a lot of tunes. The overwhelming majority of tunes will at the stay in the same mode for at least 8 bars.
Re: "modal chords" - do you mean extended chords (anything with a 9th, 13th ect in it), altered chords (chords that have notes in that aren't in the scale you're in), or diads (chords that only have root and fifth in them)?
Re: the use of "jazzy" chords - it seems to me to be a matter of personal opinion, however there are many people who can use them well and in my experience you'd be unlikely to get grimaces provided the chords fit, the rhythm's tight and the volume's suitable - no matter how you like to play.
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by Andy V
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Thanks Donough.... I just live to back this music, I know it sounds kinda silly and taking a subservient role to some, but I do fingerstyle tune playing as well, though if I had to choose, I'd choose backing. It's like breathing to me, a whole different experience from playing melody, once you really know where what sounds live where on the fingerboard, whether by ear or music theory or whatever your chosen method, you can just carry the music here and there on a whim, it's very exciting to me and a very emotional experience if that makes any sense.
What's great to hear in a great backer, is the element of surprise at times, they do something unexpected, it will momentarily change the mood of the melody, then pull it back in, and if done right, it's a subtle thing, not an in your face thing, and as I always say, people are NOT listening to you (usually, unless they are other backers trying to see what you're doing) they are listeneing to the fiddle or whatever, but they should sense a shift or a mood change going on behind the music. This should be done in a way to BRING OUT the melody player, not so you can get an "oh wow" from someone, or to take them away from the melody. You are just there, sort of unnoticed until you stop, then they should notice you are gone and something is missing. That to me is the goal in backing.
Andy...the jazz chords..., I really like them in Lunasa, they fit there. I have hit one or two in my life, but they don't suit my style one bit. What's really awful is two guitars at a session, one doing jazz chords, the other not.....ughhhhh.... I will drop out at that point, or we can switch off. Some guitars or backers can play well together and not conflict, but that sounds like a mess!!
the other thing that drive me to the bring of insanity at a session (but..yes.. sessions are open, and not to be orchestrated, that's the fun of them in spite of some musical conflict) is a backer hitting on the off beat. Sometimes a fiddler will...don't know if there's a term for this, but bring the bow back after a note, so there is no space there.... and then you might hit that too as a backer... but the compulsion some have to fill in the spaces with a strum... maybe just personal taste, but it's torture to listen too, like "here I am" between the notes. Leave the spaces be where they belong, stay with the beat of the melody, is just my idea of good backing, even if it's three chord strumming, nothing fancy, that works really well if it stays with the melody.
OK... got to get some work done today!... I know my posts are WAY too long. Sorry!
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
"Yeahbut, I think Dow's right."
Yeahbutnobutyeahbut, I think he *is* right, in saying, "Learn the tunes" but *just* learning the tunes is not enough. If it were, then all great tune players would be great backers, which ain't the case. I think having experience and appreciation of music that is founded on chord progressions - e.g. rock, jazz, classical - is a great help, if not essential. Whilst I would not call myself a backer of any description, finding adequate, if unimagintive, chords to a tune is second nature to me (although, *playing* them is another cache of fiddles altogether) - and I put this down to playing the piano from early childhood until my late teens, with a little classical tuition and a lot of attempting (with limited success) to play rock, blues, jazz and 'other'. Learning tunes gives you a feel for melody, but for chord-backing, you need a feel for harmony as well. Classical harmony theory (or jazz theory, which, I think, is fundamentally the same thing, only extended in a different direction) can be useful, but only if you either have a very sharp ear and quick* brain and can apply all its principles faultlessly, or you already have a feel for harmony - preferably both.
*Quickness is imperative for a backer, since you have to consider 4-6 (perhaps more, if you play a keyboard instrument) notes at once, not just one or two, like a melody player. My problem is transferring the chords I hear in my head to my fingers - by the time I have got all my fingers in the right places, it's usually time for the next chord.
Re: jazzy chords - I'll second andy_n. All chords are good in their proper places. Some sound very wrong, some sound just a bit iffy, but sometimes you'll hear the most audacious chord used to great effect and you'll wonder how its perpetrator ever got away with it.
By the way, I went to see Waterson Carthy last night in Newtown, Wales. What a guitarist Martin Carthy is. He doesn't come up often in the 'Who's best?' discussions that rear their ugly threads here periodically, perhaps because his style is somehow quintessentially English and does not have much to do with Irish music, but I would class him as one of the great traditional guitarists of these Isles.
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Spoon.... I absolutley IDOLIZE Martin Carthy. Irish name, English player. The Watersons, esp. since he joined long ago, what a powerful sound.
He was if anyone (I learned to play basically in isolation since age 11) my biggest influence in backing.... and John Renbourne my biggest in tune playing. I first heard them both in 1971 when I went over to England, a ragtime player, and came back playing Celtic trad a year later. My guitarist friend I stayed with at first, he was entranced with the American rags... like we swapped personlaities!
Carthy playing fingerstlye, he has such strong attack, I knew that's what I wanted long ago... I do not play like him soundwise, but did adapt that strong attack mainly on the bass notes, and get very good volume (though not to overpower the melody....I do know my place, LOL) for backing even though a finger player.
The attack is the thing, Carthy knows what notes to pull out, to stress, when to lie low a bit, when to jump back in. He is an absolute genius. He does get little mention here being an English player. I could not believe my ears the first time I heard him. He just about rearranged all my molecules!! I swear I was a different person after hearing him, like the lights went on!
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Oh dear,,,, getting NOTHING odne workwise this afternoon!!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=B2IzuN44-y8&mode=related&search=
here is an old Carthy clip with Dave Swarbrick....
Carthy is also a great singer, super.
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Of course one should learn the tunes.
But without proper rhythm what's the point?
Good guitar backing knows the beat of the music, not just the notes. When guitar backing lacks a strong pulse, it's not doing the job. I venture that good rhythmic guitar backing can lift
even unfamiliar tunes, if the guitarist has enough knowledge of the types of twists and turns that may occur in this music along with the ability to adjust the rhythm accordingly.
# Posted on December 21st 2006 by halfwaythere
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Right halfwaythere,,,, it all has to add up.
I still think the best way is to tape the session you go to regularly, and practice to it. If you can find a teacher or workshop or good book, go for it. This way you will be in sync with those you play with and they will be happier to see you walk in if you know their usual sets.
Don't let any of this stuff we're all saying overwhelm or intimidate you. If you love the music, love the instrument, it will be pleasure and relaxation to "Practice". It's strange how things happen, you can struggle for a year, and then suddenly, snap... you get it and jump a level. Like all the repitition suddenly gets encoded in your brain and fingers.
We're all, even very long time and experienced players, struggling to get to the next level. There is always a next level, and maybe that part of the adventure and fun of it. Just keep plugging away. The joy in being part of the overall sound, and having the melody players want you there, it's very satisfying and worth all the work you put in. You have many years to jump leaps and bounds in this, so just go for it.
# Posted on December 21st 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Paddy,
Chris Smith's book/Cd, " Celtic Backup for All Instrumentalists" is a good read if you're looking for some printed material. Lots of good ideas and jumping off points.
I'll also second what other folks have been saying about the importance of the right hand (assuming you're a rightie). As John Doyle said in a class I was in, "it doesn't matter how good your chords are if you've got a crap right hand" (or words to that effect).
Jeff W
# Posted on December 21st 2006 by jeff_willner
Re: Advancing with Accompaniment: Point me in the right direction
Of course, for John, that would be the left hand that sets the rhythm, since he plays 'backwards!"
# Posted on December 22nd 2006 by AlBrown