Set aside any difficulties in playability like stretches and so on - a whole other discussion.
My question is how well do you think the a bouzouki playing melody (skilfully, of course) in unison with fiddles, pipes, flutes, and so on fits into the overall sound?
Is it:
- A good contributor all of the time?
- Pleasant as a "different" sound in the mix from time to time?
- Ugly, jangly, and foreign-sounding?
- Other?
I suppose I'm addressing the question to people who don't play zouk, but who have experienced others playing melody along with them. And I'm concerned with sessions, not bands.
The bouzouki is as good a melody instrument as any other. Much of the technique can be transferred from banjo and mandolin, although the deliciously long sustain of a good bouzouki can be put to good use and opens up other possiblities for ornamentation. But I think it works best played solo or in a duo or trio, or else in some kind of arrangement, alternating between melody, countermelody, arpeggios and chords. A bouzouki usually lacks the sharp attack of the mandolin and banjo and the sound, if it can be heard at all, tends to come over somewhat 'muddy' when played in unison with the other instruments in a large session.
We should not forget that the bouzouki was originally a melody instrument, and it wasn't until Donal Lunny got hold of it that it became the norm to strum chords on it.
For my ears, it can be brilliant, depending on the player and the instrument. The wrong instrument or the wrong player can make the mix sound too muddy.
They sound nice with the octaves tuned GDAE for tune playing and better in unisons tuned GDAD for backing, so DL says anyway. You can get ones with a ever so slightly shorter neck which make it easier to stretch to the high B note when doing melody. Not many people play melody on the bouzouki and its not as intrusive as a banjo but sometimes that punch is the lacking ingredient of a good session
When played well, it doesnt matter so much, but for players like me, a quieter instrument is better. It's a good deal easier to kill a session with a banjo than a zouk.
I play a bit of melody on the zouk, but it doesn't really stand up very well in a large session with pipes and box, etc. So that's why I play banjo too.
But I think it can be brilliant playing tunes in an intimate setting.
I currently have my 5 course strung CGDAD, so I can capo at the 7th fret and play the lower 4 courses as GDAE. That gives it a bit of a mandola sound, and I have octave strings on the lowest 3 courses, so it still has a bit of ring to it.
is that a citern you are playing then ? thats a clever wee trick there I used to do a similar thing with the acoustic guitar to play tunes when too many backing guitarists would turn up.
I'm a guitarist who picked up the octave mandolin so I could play melodies or to provide some different colors when another guitarist or two shows up. It's not great for all tunes (just like a banjo isn't great for all tunes), but it's really fun on most of them. It takes some strength to play--it's a very physical instrument, given the string tension and the reaches--but the tonality is wonderful, especially in smaller ensembles. Most listeners seem fascinated with the instrument. It has an almost medieval sound to me.
I'm on my third instrument, and it's small enough to play melodies w/o needing huge stretches, but loud enough to be heard in most settings. The colors of the tones seem to fit in well with fiddle and flute. I'm not an expert by any standards, but most of my mates seem to tolerate it.
As I explain when asked by members of the public what on earth it is I'm playing, it was developed by and for a group of irish fretted-instrument musicians, who wanted something to play on apart from guitars, but found the mandolin a bit tinkly-tinkly and the tenor banjo frankly raucous.
To me the tenor banjo is not sonorous with the rest of the instruments used in ITM; it can be played well but will still sound intrusive.
Details about the preffered scale length, stringing, and tuning, are all personal preferrences - I reckon the Reverend has got it about right, though I'm aiming for 10-string or 5-course in 5ths when I can get building in the warmer weather.
Guernsey Pete, I have to stand up for the banjo's honour! I've certainly heard banjo playing that sounds intrusive but also a lot of playing that to me sounds just right. The best example I can think of is Charlie Piggott with the early De Dannan, but there's other folks like Angelina Carberry and Brian McGrath who know how to make banjo enhance rather than destroy the music.
Uilleann pipes are just as raucous as banjos (compared with the sweeter sounds of fiddles and flutes) but well-played pipes are a beautiful part of any session.
In the end, of course it's always a matter of personal taste.
Fiddles and Flutes can be just as intrusive, it depends on the players. I have loads of respect for people who can play melody well on Zouk and do it consistently. Such as our webmaster Jermey, he plays melody on Zouk.
I will take advisement over Angelina Carberry - I did hear her from some link posted here a while ago and was much impressed.
I haven't heard our webmaster; and, curiously, when trying to download the samples posted by folks here, his was the only picture that wouldn't come up on the screen - the Man of Mystery !
But if he plays melody on 'zouk, well, there you are, must be one of the good guys ( we knew that already, just reinforced it. )
Really Ripthecalico? I think it sounds pretty crap when playing tunes with the octave strings on the lower two courses as I found last week when someone was trying to do it on this out of tune ozark.
Maybe this should be a new thread, as this one has been buried beneath the sands of time, but here you go.
Does anybody do melody in the GDAD tuning? I know conventional wisdom is GDAE for melody, GDAD for backing. Surely, GDAE is better for melody -- you probably can't do better than tuning like a fiddle -- but I find GDAD isn't bad at all. Some tunes are actually easier and, while some are harder, most are just different, not harder or easier. The argument in favor of GDAE usually concerns eliminating a stretch to the high "B," but I find if I change my whole hand position to 7th position (index at the 7th fret) it usually makes the high part of a tune quite accessible. It only requires finding a note in the tune that I can play on an open string to buy me the moment it takes to shift position.
Similarly, I suppose, backing in GDAE wouldn't be bad either. Many of the droning chord sounds that people like are still available.
The thing is, tuning back and forth isn't usually a good thing. It's hard on the strings, and there's the matter of time. In a session, you don't always know what tune is coming up, and if a tune comes up on which you play melody followed by one where you'd prefer to back, you really don't have time to change without making annoying tuning noises for all to hear. It seems advantageous to learn to do both things in one tuning.
The biggest disadvantage to learning your tunes in GDAD is that if you ever get around to switching to fiddle or banjo, you'd either have to relearn all your tunes or learn those new instruments in a nonstandard tuning.
And on zouk, of course, you can't be afraid to learn to play up the neck in 7th or 9th position to accomodate high sections, and you need to find that open-string note in the tune to make the position change.
I can't think of any serious disadvantages to backing in GDAE, although I haven't learned to be comfortable at it.
What do you think?
Depends on the instrument. If you've got a really l o n g neck, then GDAD is helpful. If you have a relatively short neck, then GDAE is quite useful, especially for those players who swap other similar instruments around. And if you have a red neck, then you might have a real problem with this music...
I play a Fylde short-neck zouk (590mm) tuned GDAD and have no problems with tunes, even when switching to tenor Banjo or fiddle....it helps that I used to play tunes on the guitar before starting on the zouk....another thing I find helpful is to capo up to the 7th fret and play easily in the keys of D A and G, where the high B appears on the first string/9th fret...try it some time
Bouzouki as a melody instrument
Bouzouki as a melody instrument
Set aside any difficulties in playability like stretches and so on - a whole other discussion.
My question is how well do you think the a bouzouki playing melody (skilfully, of course) in unison with fiddles, pipes, flutes, and so on fits into the overall sound?
Is it:
- A good contributor all of the time?
- Pleasant as a "different" sound in the mix from time to time?
- Ugly, jangly, and foreign-sounding?
- Other?
I suppose I'm addressing the question to people who don't play zouk, but who have experienced others playing melody along with them. And I'm concerned with sessions, not bands.
What say ye?
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by grego
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
They sound great apart from Dow
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
Same as a mandolin, for jigs and reels you would be better with a banjo.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
Something with a bit of skin bb eh?
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Backer
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
The bouzouki is as good a melody instrument as any other. Much of the technique can be transferred from banjo and mandolin, although the deliciously long sustain of a good bouzouki can be put to good use and opens up other possiblities for ornamentation. But I think it works best played solo or in a duo or trio, or else in some kind of arrangement, alternating between melody, countermelody, arpeggios and chords. A bouzouki usually lacks the sharp attack of the mandolin and banjo and the sound, if it can be heard at all, tends to come over somewhat 'muddy' when played in unison with the other instruments in a large session.
We should not forget that the bouzouki was originally a melody instrument, and it wasn't until Donal Lunny got hold of it that it became the norm to strum chords on it.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
For my ears, it can be brilliant, depending on the player and the instrument. The wrong instrument or the wrong player can make the mix sound too muddy.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
They sound nice with the octaves tuned GDAE for tune playing and better in unisons tuned GDAD for backing, so DL says anyway. You can get ones with a ever so slightly shorter neck which make it easier to stretch to the high B note when doing melody. Not many people play melody on the bouzouki and its not as intrusive as a banjo but sometimes that punch is the lacking ingredient of a good session
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
When played well, it doesnt matter so much, but for players like me, a quieter instrument is better. It's a good deal easier to kill a session with a banjo than a zouk.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
I play a bit of melody on the zouk, but it doesn't really stand up very well in a large session with pipes and box, etc. So that's why I play banjo too.
But I think it can be brilliant playing tunes in an intimate setting.
I currently have my 5 course strung CGDAD, so I can capo at the 7th fret and play the lower 4 courses as GDAE. That gives it a bit of a mandola sound, and I have octave strings on the lowest 3 courses, so it still has a bit of ring to it.
Pete
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Reverend
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
is that a citern you are playing then ? thats a clever wee trick there I used to do a similar thing with the acoustic guitar to play tunes when too many backing guitarists would turn up.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
I'm a guitarist who picked up the octave mandolin so I could play melodies or to provide some different colors when another guitarist or two shows up. It's not great for all tunes (just like a banjo isn't great for all tunes), but it's really fun on most of them. It takes some strength to play--it's a very physical instrument, given the string tension and the reaches--but the tonality is wonderful, especially in smaller ensembles. Most listeners seem fascinated with the instrument. It has an almost medieval sound to me.
I'm on my third instrument, and it's small enough to play melodies w/o needing huge stretches, but loud enough to be heard in most settings. The colors of the tones seem to fit in well with fiddle and flute. I'm not an expert by any standards, but most of my mates seem to tolerate it.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
As I explain when asked by members of the public what on earth it is I'm playing, it was developed by and for a group of irish fretted-instrument musicians, who wanted something to play on apart from guitars, but found the mandolin a bit tinkly-tinkly and the tenor banjo frankly raucous.
To me the tenor banjo is not sonorous with the rest of the instruments used in ITM; it can be played well but will still sound intrusive.
Details about the preffered scale length, stringing, and tuning, are all personal preferrences - I reckon the Reverend has got it about right, though I'm aiming for 10-string or 5-course in 5ths when I can get building in the warmer weather.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
Guernsey Pete, I have to stand up for the banjo's honour! I've certainly heard banjo playing that sounds intrusive but also a lot of playing that to me sounds just right. The best example I can think of is Charlie Piggott with the early De Dannan, but there's other folks like Angelina Carberry and Brian McGrath who know how to make banjo enhance rather than destroy the music.
Uilleann pipes are just as raucous as banjos (compared with the sweeter sounds of fiddles and flutes) but well-played pipes are a beautiful part of any session.
In the end, of course it's always a matter of personal taste.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by grego
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
Fiddles and Flutes can be just as intrusive, it depends on the players. I have loads of respect for people who can play melody well on Zouk and do it consistently. Such as our webmaster Jermey, he plays melody on Zouk.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
I will take advisement over Angelina Carberry - I did hear her from some link posted here a while ago and was much impressed.
I haven't heard our webmaster; and, curiously, when trying to download the samples posted by folks here, his was the only picture that wouldn't come up on the screen - the Man of Mystery !
But if he plays melody on 'zouk, well, there you are, must be one of the good guys ( we knew that already, just reinforced it. )
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
Really Ripthecalico? I think it sounds pretty crap when playing tunes with the octave strings on the lower two courses as I found last week when someone was trying to do it on this out of tune ozark.
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by ecidralla
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
Maybe this should be a new thread, as this one has been buried beneath the sands of time, but here you go.
Does anybody do melody in the GDAD tuning? I know conventional wisdom is GDAE for melody, GDAD for backing. Surely, GDAE is better for melody -- you probably can't do better than tuning like a fiddle -- but I find GDAD isn't bad at all. Some tunes are actually easier and, while some are harder, most are just different, not harder or easier. The argument in favor of GDAE usually concerns eliminating a stretch to the high "B," but I find if I change my whole hand position to 7th position (index at the 7th fret) it usually makes the high part of a tune quite accessible. It only requires finding a note in the tune that I can play on an open string to buy me the moment it takes to shift position.
Similarly, I suppose, backing in GDAE wouldn't be bad either. Many of the droning chord sounds that people like are still available.
The thing is, tuning back and forth isn't usually a good thing. It's hard on the strings, and there's the matter of time. In a session, you don't always know what tune is coming up, and if a tune comes up on which you play melody followed by one where you'd prefer to back, you really don't have time to change without making annoying tuning noises for all to hear. It seems advantageous to learn to do both things in one tuning.
The biggest disadvantage to learning your tunes in GDAD is that if you ever get around to switching to fiddle or banjo, you'd either have to relearn all your tunes or learn those new instruments in a nonstandard tuning.
And on zouk, of course, you can't be afraid to learn to play up the neck in 7th or 9th position to accomodate high sections, and you need to find that open-string note in the tune to make the position change.
I can't think of any serious disadvantages to backing in GDAE, although I haven't learned to be comfortable at it.
What do you think?
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by cuchulain54
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
Depends on the instrument. If you've got a really l o n g neck, then GDAD is helpful. If you have a relatively short neck, then GDAE is quite useful, especially for those players who swap other similar instruments around. And if you have a red neck, then you might have a real problem with this music...
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
Sorry, had to bring this up for Guernsey Pete - check out Charlie Piggott's banjo contribution on this YouTube video of De Dannann.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EqpB7N0NPi0
# Posted on December 21st 2006 by grego
Re: Bouzouki as a melody instrument
I play a Fylde short-neck zouk (590mm) tuned GDAD and have no problems with tunes, even when switching to tenor Banjo or fiddle....it helps that I used to play tunes on the guitar before starting on the zouk....another thing I find helpful is to capo up to the 7th fret and play easily in the keys of D A and G, where the high B appears on the first string/9th fret...try it some time
# Posted on December 24th 2006 by zoukmike