I am embarking on a small project to find the perfect banjo bridge for the Irish tenor banjo tuning of GDAE. I have done some experimenting but I would like to hear from others as to a) what you want from a banjo bridge (height, comfort, two or three legs, wood, etc.), b) what bridges are you using now and how did you arrive at that choice, and c) what kind of tone do you like in your banjo?
Bridges are one of the most important components of the setup and they can change a number of the facets relating to sound. They are also fairly easy to change out, especially if you are aware of how intonation works. I'd say that only the type of head and the tension of the head are more important. Not only does the bridge transmit the vibrations to the head, but it also has some say in playability.
Typical bridges found in a music store are made of maple and blackwood (ebony is too expensive.) Nowadays these are five string bridges that have four slots in them. But there are differences in the strings, especially with the GDAE tuning. A typical five string banjo has a small string of .010 diameter and a large string of .029 while the Irish banjo can have an .011 to .044 or so. The difference in mass of these strings is in the range of 1:16 (the square of the ratios of the diameters) while a five string banjo may have a 1:9 ratio. As a result, a five string bridge will be find for the DAE set but may not make the G string ring out or sing.
In addition, if the G string sounds good, the E string may start to strip the paint off the walls.
I have done some experimenting and am using Red Henry's ideas (http://www.murphymethod.com/maplebridge.html) including making the bridges longer (9 cm or 3 1/2") which seems to not only change the sound for the better, but it extends the sweet spot giving you more tonal choices. I have looked at cello bridges and noted that they only have about 4 cm of contact and that there is no direct path from the string to the soundboard (I have placed a 6.5 mm hole below each string to change the pathway.) I have made two and three legged bridges that have about 4 cm of contact (note that the cm squared with cello bridges is larger than mine, but cellos transmit a lot more energy than a banjo so I figured that I could get by with less contact) which is about what some of the shorter bridges have for contact points.
Weight appears to be an important factor. If I go below 1.7 g. or exceed 2.3 grams, the sound is no longer as pleasant. Wood types do have some bearing, maple is a good all around start and does well by itself, birch - which is similar to maple in NA - gives a mellower sound and by varying the depth and type of wood used on a cap (like most store bought bridges) you can make the bridge produce louder, softer, mellower or shriller tones.
The bridges I am making are 13 mm (1/2") to 16 mm (a bit above 5/8") with the most common being 15 mm (19/32" or so.) Bridge height effects playability and volume. The metric system is much easier to use when making bridges. (Besides, the metric system has been the standard in the US since 1976, look it up <G>)
So tell me what you think. Each banjo is different and everyone has a specific tone that pleases them (or more than one.) I think that bridges can help a lot in that respect and would like to explore it more with others.
I am even considering sending bridges to others as I make them to see if they help, hurt, or remain neutral.
i had some trouble with my bridge alright.....i had to do a bit of work on her to stop the g from popin out. my banjo was only a cheap piece of crap though......but i'd be interested in seeing if a new bridge would make any difference
ya seem to know what your on about as well. so best of luck with it.
Wow, what a great idea. Too much of the bridge making world (in the US, at least) is geared towards the bluegrass player. I don't want to sound like Earl, dammit!
So let's see...
a) All my bridges have three legs (although I've always wondered about how a two foot design would sound) and are of the maple/ebony, maple/purpleheart variety. Height will depend on the individual banjo and it's action, although the banjo I play most uses a 9/16" bridge.
b) I have had several bridges. Right now, I have a Farquhar and I have it because I needed a bridge, heard that he could make me one and called him up. It's pretty good, but something of a compromise. I also have a couple of KatEyz. I read about his bridges several years ago somewhere online and liked how he talked through his bridge making philosophy. I think his bridges are great, although I really didnt like the "pegged" one I bought.
c) My "ideal" banjo bridge would have a sharp (but not piercing) high end and a punchy bass that are balanced and together EVOKE a midrange without putting too much emphasis on it. I don't like a lot of sustain and find that some bridges contribute to a kind of annoying ringyness, while others don't. (Could less dense wood do this?) One way I get around this ringyness is to use a heavier bridge, but I find this dampens the high end. A thin (but not too thin...I don't like a shrill bridge...Kelly Emerson's would represent one extreme of this) bridge takes away from the bigger bass that I want to hear.
With the Farquhar, I have close to what I would like to hear, but it's not quite as "it" as I would like - the treble is "plinky" and a little thin, although the bass is pretty nice. If I HAD to say something about it, it just doesn't feel as sharp as I'd like it to.
This being said, the best bridge I ever had was an old three-legged Bacon. Maple with an ebony top. It was very thin and light and not only had a rich bass but a nice, bright treble. It was one of those bridges that was real thin at the top and got a little thicker on the way down, except at the feet - which were carved in, and made the bridge look like it was wearing snowshoes. The bridge itself had a lovely, elegant scroll around the sides that was really attractive, too. Unfortunately, no one makes a bridge remotely like it today.
I still have the Bacon, but the string slot is chipped, so it's basically useless for me at this point. I'd buy one off eBay or whatever, but Bacon seems to have made them in 1/2" and 5/8" only, and I want a 9/16".
One question about what you wrote: a bridge 3.5" inches wide? Wow...I once had a bridge that was 2 15/16" and it drove me absolutely nuts. My hand kept bumping into it!
The bridges I am making right now have a fairly sharp side taper from 2 cm (almost an inch) in on the top to the base which takes the leg out of the way of your hand. I am also rounding off all the sharp corners so any time you touch the bridge it is on a smooth curved surface. they also have a front taper like violin bridges.
BTW, you might be able to fix the Bacon bridge with superglue and ebony dust to fill the chip and then refile the slot.
I just built a 1.7 gram bridge with cedar and purpleheart that is LOUD and has a very good bass response. I am now thinking of building a composite bridge with a purpleheart G string, Balsamo DEA side (which produces a mellow sound) on a cedar base to see what happens.
I like the Farquar and the Kateyz bridges. Both Mike Smith and Jim Farquar have experimented a lot to come to their bridge styles and each has something to offer. The Farquar bridge has tague (sp?) nut inserts, I have some tague nuts and a tague cap might be interesting, while Mike Smith has tried all sorts of things with his basic design. Both bridges have the indirect path to the head and spaces under the strings.
I tried making the "kateyz" style with my blanks, but it is a lot of work <G>.
A taper that sharp may be nice, actually. I'd never heard of cedar used for a bridge, though. Do you have a sound clip up somewhere?
What other woods are you trying? That sunken birch seems to be all the rage, have you tried that yet? Maybe with a purpleheart top? That might be a really interesting combination.
How this do the bridges get up by the top? Also, I've sort of noticed that the older bridges have a thinner strip of secondary wood at the top...how thick are your strips?
And about the Bacon bridge, yea, I know about that fix, but at this point it's also a height thing.
So, I tried out my Bacon, chipped slot and all, put it on and it still sounds great. Tight low end and a nice, jangly high.
Good thing, though, is I was rummaging through my bridge box and found my 9/16" bridge, which meant that the bridge on the banjo I'm using is a 1/2", so that works out nicely and maybe I'll do the ebony dust fix.
I am real interested in how your bridges will sound, though. Please, please keep me posted on how things develop. (I've noticed the thread over at the BHO...maybe that's the best place to keep up with it?).
The BHO thread will draw a lot of five string makers who will probably have about as much knowledge as I do on the subject of Irish tenor bridges. We will see, I respect the bridge makers on that forum, but I suspect that they have given little thought to the subject.
I had to measure it and it was 9/16" (about 14.8 mm) but I have a skin head on it. I understand that they used 9/16" with skin heads in the 20's because of the variability of head tension. Once the plastic heads came in, many switched to 1/2" bridges, but remember that was for chord melodies. I use 9/16" on most of my banjos including my vintage banjos.
i have a freind who's a luthier, he made a three legged maple bridge for my old maybelle 17 fret, seems to have a bit more pop than the grover that was on. i'm looking for a good replacement for my whyte ladye to give a bit more bass. any ideas for woods?
That is the prime question that I am asking, how do you enhance the G string without making the E string loud and shrill. There seems to be a two step solution, change the G string to a larger diameter (if you have a 17 fret instrument, at least a .042 and usually higher) and then add a bridge that will brigthen up without stripping the paint off of the walls.
As for the second part, I am still trying to find a solution for my Maybelle (the entry level Maybelle, 17 fret, no resonator, simple brass hoop for a tone ring. Mine is made of walnut but I also have a maple one. The walnut banjo will be mellower by nature.) I am going to make a cedar/purpleheart bridge to see what happens. Keep posted.
I am trying to remember what Mike at kateyz made for me now, as it was several years ago. I think they were 1.85 gram and 13mm high. They are fantastic and have not had to think about changing them since. I have them on my Vox, Tubaphone and I think on my Style 1 Weymann - I will have to check. In any event I should like to have them on every banjo!
I wanted a warm rich sound, which did not strip paint and gave a reassuring punch to the tone. If you think yours could do the same or better I would be keen to try one Mike.
Interesting thread! I don't have too much time right now to think about this stuff, but some general things I have noticed with the banjo bridges that I have tried. Lighter bridges give more of the ringing sound that I like. Roger Landes was here this weekend (still here, in fact), and he has a KatEyz on the Vega that I sold him, which sounds too heavy to me. But I like more ring than he does. The only wider bridges that I have are also heavy and sound muffled to me.
I have a bridge on the Paramount that I picked up at OME (Roger and I are going up there this afternoon again, in fact) I can't remember who made it, but it is a 3 foot, rather light, and it actually leans forward a hair, and it sounds just great. Have you played with angling your bridges at all?
I actually made a couple of Mandolin bridges based loosely on Red Henry's designs, but I haven't delved into banjo bridges yet.
Can you maybe post some pics up on your website of the banjo bridges you have made?
Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
I am embarking on a small project to find the perfect banjo bridge for the Irish tenor banjo tuning of GDAE. I have done some experimenting but I would like to hear from others as to a) what you want from a banjo bridge (height, comfort, two or three legs, wood, etc.), b) what bridges are you using now and how did you arrive at that choice, and c) what kind of tone do you like in your banjo?
Bridges are one of the most important components of the setup and they can change a number of the facets relating to sound. They are also fairly easy to change out, especially if you are aware of how intonation works. I'd say that only the type of head and the tension of the head are more important. Not only does the bridge transmit the vibrations to the head, but it also has some say in playability.
Typical bridges found in a music store are made of maple and blackwood (ebony is too expensive.) Nowadays these are five string bridges that have four slots in them. But there are differences in the strings, especially with the GDAE tuning. A typical five string banjo has a small string of .010 diameter and a large string of .029 while the Irish banjo can have an .011 to .044 or so. The difference in mass of these strings is in the range of 1:16 (the square of the ratios of the diameters) while a five string banjo may have a 1:9 ratio. As a result, a five string bridge will be find for the DAE set but may not make the G string ring out or sing.
In addition, if the G string sounds good, the E string may start to strip the paint off the walls.
I have done some experimenting and am using Red Henry's ideas (http://www.murphymethod.com/maplebridge.html) including making the bridges longer (9 cm or 3 1/2") which seems to not only change the sound for the better, but it extends the sweet spot giving you more tonal choices. I have looked at cello bridges and noted that they only have about 4 cm of contact and that there is no direct path from the string to the soundboard (I have placed a 6.5 mm hole below each string to change the pathway.) I have made two and three legged bridges that have about 4 cm of contact (note that the cm squared with cello bridges is larger than mine, but cellos transmit a lot more energy than a banjo so I figured that I could get by with less contact) which is about what some of the shorter bridges have for contact points.
Weight appears to be an important factor. If I go below 1.7 g. or exceed 2.3 grams, the sound is no longer as pleasant. Wood types do have some bearing, maple is a good all around start and does well by itself, birch - which is similar to maple in NA - gives a mellower sound and by varying the depth and type of wood used on a cap (like most store bought bridges) you can make the bridge produce louder, softer, mellower or shriller tones.
The bridges I am making are 13 mm (1/2") to 16 mm (a bit above 5/8") with the most common being 15 mm (19/32" or so.) Bridge height effects playability and volume. The metric system is much easier to use when making bridges. (Besides, the metric system has been the standard in the US since 1976, look it up <G>)
So tell me what you think. Each banjo is different and everyone has a specific tone that pleases them (or more than one.) I think that bridges can help a lot in that respect and would like to explore it more with others.
I am even considering sending bridges to others as I make them to see if they help, hurt, or remain neutral.
MIke Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on December 3rd 2006 by mikeyes
Re: Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
i had some trouble with my bridge alright.....i had to do a bit of work on her to stop the g from popin out. my banjo was only a cheap piece of crap though......but i'd be interested in seeing if a new bridge would make any difference
ya seem to know what your on about as well. so best of luck with it.
# Posted on December 3rd 2006 by darraghchula
Re: Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
Wow, what a great idea. Too much of the bridge making world (in the US, at least) is geared towards the bluegrass player. I don't want to sound like Earl, dammit!
So let's see...
a) All my bridges have three legs (although I've always wondered about how a two foot design would sound) and are of the maple/ebony, maple/purpleheart variety. Height will depend on the individual banjo and it's action, although the banjo I play most uses a 9/16" bridge.
b) I have had several bridges. Right now, I have a Farquhar and I have it because I needed a bridge, heard that he could make me one and called him up. It's pretty good, but something of a compromise. I also have a couple of KatEyz. I read about his bridges several years ago somewhere online and liked how he talked through his bridge making philosophy. I think his bridges are great, although I really didnt like the "pegged" one I bought.
c) My "ideal" banjo bridge would have a sharp (but not piercing) high end and a punchy bass that are balanced and together EVOKE a midrange without putting too much emphasis on it. I don't like a lot of sustain and find that some bridges contribute to a kind of annoying ringyness, while others don't. (Could less dense wood do this?) One way I get around this ringyness is to use a heavier bridge, but I find this dampens the high end. A thin (but not too thin...I don't like a shrill bridge...Kelly Emerson's would represent one extreme of this) bridge takes away from the bigger bass that I want to hear.
With the Farquhar, I have close to what I would like to hear, but it's not quite as "it" as I would like - the treble is "plinky" and a little thin, although the bass is pretty nice. If I HAD to say something about it, it just doesn't feel as sharp as I'd like it to.
This being said, the best bridge I ever had was an old three-legged Bacon. Maple with an ebony top. It was very thin and light and not only had a rich bass but a nice, bright treble. It was one of those bridges that was real thin at the top and got a little thicker on the way down, except at the feet - which were carved in, and made the bridge look like it was wearing snowshoes. The bridge itself had a lovely, elegant scroll around the sides that was really attractive, too. Unfortunately, no one makes a bridge remotely like it today.
I still have the Bacon, but the string slot is chipped, so it's basically useless for me at this point. I'd buy one off eBay or whatever, but Bacon seems to have made them in 1/2" and 5/8" only, and I want a 9/16".
One question about what you wrote: a bridge 3.5" inches wide? Wow...I once had a bridge that was 2 15/16" and it drove me absolutely nuts. My hand kept bumping into it!
# Posted on December 3rd 2006 by Upsetter
Re: Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
Upsetter,
The bridges I am making right now have a fairly sharp side taper from 2 cm (almost an inch) in on the top to the base which takes the leg out of the way of your hand. I am also rounding off all the sharp corners so any time you touch the bridge it is on a smooth curved surface. they also have a front taper like violin bridges.
BTW, you might be able to fix the Bacon bridge with superglue and ebony dust to fill the chip and then refile the slot.
I just built a 1.7 gram bridge with cedar and purpleheart that is LOUD and has a very good bass response. I am now thinking of building a composite bridge with a purpleheart G string, Balsamo DEA side (which produces a mellow sound) on a cedar base to see what happens.
I like the Farquar and the Kateyz bridges. Both Mike Smith and Jim Farquar have experimented a lot to come to their bridge styles and each has something to offer. The Farquar bridge has tague (sp?) nut inserts, I have some tague nuts and a tague cap might be interesting, while Mike Smith has tried all sorts of things with his basic design. Both bridges have the indirect path to the head and spaces under the strings.
I tried making the "kateyz" style with my blanks, but it is a lot of work <G>.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on December 3rd 2006 by mikeyes
Re: Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
Mike,
A taper that sharp may be nice, actually. I'd never heard of cedar used for a bridge, though. Do you have a sound clip up somewhere?
What other woods are you trying? That sunken birch seems to be all the rage, have you tried that yet? Maybe with a purpleheart top? That might be a really interesting combination.
How this do the bridges get up by the top? Also, I've sort of noticed that the older bridges have a thinner strip of secondary wood at the top...how thick are your strips?
And about the Bacon bridge, yea, I know about that fix, but at this point it's also a height thing.
# Posted on December 3rd 2006 by Upsetter
Re: Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
Dammit, Mike, now I'm tinkering.
So, I tried out my Bacon, chipped slot and all, put it on and it still sounds great. Tight low end and a nice, jangly high.
Good thing, though, is I was rummaging through my bridge box and found my 9/16" bridge, which meant that the bridge on the banjo I'm using is a 1/2", so that works out nicely and maybe I'll do the ebony dust fix.
I am real interested in how your bridges will sound, though. Please, please keep me posted on how things develop. (I've noticed the thread over at the BHO...maybe that's the best place to keep up with it?).
# Posted on December 3rd 2006 by Upsetter
Re: Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
The BHO thread will draw a lot of five string makers who will probably have about as much knowledge as I do on the subject of Irish tenor bridges. We will see, I respect the bridge makers on that forum, but I suspect that they have given little thought to the subject.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on December 3rd 2006 by mikeyes
Re: Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
Mike, could I ask you what sort of / height of bridge you use on your Little Wonder?
# Posted on December 3rd 2006 by sechan
Re: Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
I had to measure it and it was 9/16" (about 14.8 mm) but I have a skin head on it. I understand that they used 9/16" with skin heads in the 20's because of the variability of head tension. Once the plastic heads came in, many switched to 1/2" bridges, but remember that was for chord melodies. I use 9/16" on most of my banjos including my vintage banjos.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on December 4th 2006 by mikeyes
Re: Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
i have a freind who's a luthier, he made a three legged maple bridge for my old maybelle 17 fret, seems to have a bit more pop than the grover that was on. i'm looking for a good replacement for my whyte ladye to give a bit more bass. any ideas for woods?
# Posted on December 4th 2006 by Dont
Re: Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
Dont,
That is the prime question that I am asking, how do you enhance the G string without making the E string loud and shrill. There seems to be a two step solution, change the G string to a larger diameter (if you have a 17 fret instrument, at least a .042 and usually higher) and then add a bridge that will brigthen up without stripping the paint off of the walls.
As for the second part, I am still trying to find a solution for my Maybelle (the entry level Maybelle, 17 fret, no resonator, simple brass hoop for a tone ring. Mine is made of walnut but I also have a maple one. The walnut banjo will be mellower by nature.) I am going to make a cedar/purpleheart bridge to see what happens. Keep posted.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on December 4th 2006 by mikeyes
Re: Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
I am trying to remember what Mike at kateyz made for me now, as it was several years ago. I think they were 1.85 gram and 13mm high. They are fantastic and have not had to think about changing them since. I have them on my Vox, Tubaphone and I think on my Style 1 Weymann - I will have to check. In any event I should like to have them on every banjo!
I wanted a warm rich sound, which did not strip paint and gave a reassuring punch to the tone. If you think yours could do the same or better I would be keen to try one Mike.
Nick
# Posted on December 4th 2006 by nick b
Re: Banjo Bridges - What do you like in a bridge?
Hey Mike,
I can't remember who made it, but it is a 3 foot, rather light, and it actually leans forward a hair, and it sounds just great. Have you played with angling your bridges at all?
Interesting thread! I don't have too much time right now to think about this stuff, but some general things I have noticed with the banjo bridges that I have tried. Lighter bridges give more of the ringing sound that I like. Roger Landes was here this weekend (still here, in fact), and he has a KatEyz on the Vega that I sold him, which sounds too heavy to me. But I like more ring than he does. The only wider bridges that I have are also heavy and sound muffled to me.
I have a bridge on the Paramount that I picked up at OME (Roger and I are going up there this afternoon again, in fact)
I actually made a couple of Mandolin bridges based loosely on Red Henry's designs, but I haven't delved into banjo bridges yet.
Can you maybe post some pics up on your website of the banjo bridges you have made?
Pete
# Posted on December 4th 2006 by Reverend