It is Saint Andrew's Day tomorrow, 30th November. On that day, Scottish people celebrate St Andrew's Day. Or at least they should do. To celebrate we will be playing predominantly Scottish tunes at The Blythe Hill Tavern Thursday night session. Anyone else doing similar?
In case you don't know what I'm bladdering on about, the patron saint of Scotland is Saint Andrew, who was one of the Twelve Apostles and brother of Simon Peter (Saint Peter). As a fisherman he lived in Galilee, now in present-day Israel.
Legend has it that after he died by crucixion (supposedly hence the saltire) a certain St. Regulus (or Rule) carried the bones of St. Andrew to Scotland. His ship was wrecked on the Fife coast, the spot at which the ship landed becoming the site of the town of St. Andrews. A cathedral was founded there in 1160, taking 158 years to build thus the town became an important site of Christian pilgrimage.
Another legend has it that two monks from the North of England went to Rome and brought back the relics of St. Andrew. One of the monks passed the relics on to the reigning king in Scotland at the time - Angus McFergus who became king in 731.
The Scottish flag is the cross of St. Andrew, also known as the Saltire, and is alleged to be one of the oldest national flags of any country, dating back at least to the 12th century.
Who says the Scots "should" be joining in with this silly old cult? Much better now people are starting to think more for themselves. Just look at the damage adherence to these absurd superstitions is causing in the world.
I think it's best to leave it up to the Scots as to whether or not we'll celebrate another of these "absurd" traditions. There would appear to be increasing interest in doing so up here, as it so happens. I personally don't see the harm in it, and I'm not in the least bit interested in religion. It is part of our cultural identitiy after all - whether you believe any of it or not. I don't understand how you can say that celebrating it may cause damage to the world - I think you may well find that your remarks cause offence in some quarters....this being one of them.
In thon Sassenach's bio he says he has Scots tunes in his repertoire. Go figure....
"Should" shouldn't...or may not...be taken too literally, or seriously. That's wot is known as a "figure of speech."
Domnull - Spoot O' Skerry and Willafjord are both Shetland tunes.
Do Shetlanders celebrate St. Andrew's Day? Or do they prefer to celebrate St. Olaf's or St. Magnus' Day or some such like? (Who is the Patron Saint of Norway? Does Shetland have its own Patron Saint?) Or are their loyalties split?
STM tunes I like include:
Several of Phil Cunningham's, well within the traditional field,
The Dark Island,
Some 2/4 dotted pipe marches, e.g. Major Manson,
Some pipe jigs - The Thief Of Lochaber, Alan McPherson Of Mosspark, etc. (Pipe tunes are often called after people whose names are hard to remember),
Repeal The Poll Tax, recently composed,
The Dean Brig strathspey, worth buying an Eb whistle for,
Some of the anthemic song tunes, e.g. Will Ye No' Come Back Again.
- But I find A Major and related keys a bugger to play in.
The Aird Ranters
Pressed for Time
Thunderstruck
Jenny Dang the Weaver
Sandy Broon's
The High Drive
The Road to Banff
250 to Vigo
The Braes of Castle Grant
Dr Macphail's Reel
Montgomery Bell Waltz
Duncan Johnstone
Jenna Reid of Quarff
Night in that Land
The Sleeping Tune
Honk Toot
The Dirty Bee
All fantastic tunes, mostly new compositions (to annoy the purists/stick in the muds). There are many more. Why save all of these tunes for St Andrew's Day? Play them every day of the year. You will be happier for it.
I've been playing "The Night We had the Goats" today - a great old tune, but just what does the title mean? Is "the Goats" a euphemism for a some kind of intestinal malfunction? Another great tune is Back of Change-House but I don't know what one of those is. Natalie MacMaster plays them - she is the bee's knees!
"Lady Mary Montague" is the first tune on the second track of Ben Lennon's "Dog Big And Dog Little" CD, where it's paired with the The Humours of Westport.
The Flowers of Edinburgh, the much 'loved' Fairy Dance and The Back O' Benachie (which I don't think is on this site)... in fact so many here's a link:
The silly old cult I had in mind was Christianity MandolinWind, so yes, St Patrick would certainly be included. Christianity has been no friend of music in Ireland. Priests don't like dancing.
But what about St Cecilia, patron saint of music? http://www.st-ceciliatide.com/stce.htm
I'm not a christian either but you don't find that a bit of a sweeping statement, I suppose?
Just had lunch at the staff canteen... guess what was on offer?
Haggis, neeps, tatties and courgette flan.
Courgettes must be native to Scotland I'sp'ose
No mince and onions
... and dessert was not deep fried mars bar
Background music from band of the black watch. How I wished I'd some Back o the moon or John McCusker CDs to hand.
Well, it's today (St Andrew's day) and here we are back to talking about *Irish* music (well, what would you expect?)
Also what about Fr. Kelly, who died earlier this year, and Fr. Quinn, who both influenced Sean Ryan? (Who composed the Reel of Rio and 200+ other tunes.)
How the hell is a jockanese musican or member of the pub'ic going to know an irish reel from a scottish one bar the title ? Even thats not always the case, it will have to be down to a choice of songs I would have thought to show some real dedication.
Ron P, I don't really agree that it should be left to Scots people to decide what Scots people should do. I think my ideal is that we should all be subject to the same laws and rules, so I think I am opposed to Scots nationalism for example. That is despite the fact that I seem to much prefer the laws as Scotland is developing them, and the way Scotland is being governed.
For the same reason I also like the European Community, even though there are many aspects of the laws it makes that I find irritating.
I think this also explains why I react badly to the idea that a certain nation ought to do such and such on a particular day, and all the more so that they ought to do this on behalf of a religious figure. I find religious and nationist attachments equally divisive, they don't fit in with my idea that we should all be subject to the same rules. For related reasons I don't think religion should play a part in public life.
I've also realised that this is not an ideal venue for this sort of discussion, but I do find it interesting, so I propose to go and discuss this further on a Philosophy message board somewhere and not to mention politics or religion here again.
Bernie - so it seems to me, taking your argument to its logical conclusion, you would have Ireland (all of it that is) back in the British Empire?
Sod it even if we are talking politics on a music website. I think it is important to distinguish between what you call nationalism, and the will of a small nation, dominated by a much bigger neighbour, for self-determination.
(and here's me a Scot living in London! - not that I think that makes any difference.)
BTW, I know my Scottish history. The Union of Parliament in 1707 was entered into by Scotland willingly, albeit begrudged, after they lost most of their national wealth in the Darien expedition. The bourgeoisie knew it would benefit them to join up with England. The Union didn't benefit the working or agrarian class one bit, and they lost their sense of identity, which Scots had maintained since Kenneth McAlpin's unification in 844 AD, so nearly 1000 years.
If the SNP win any more seats, which they probably will, they could possibly declare some kind of UDI, so it will merely be a return to Scotlands default state of nationhood. Whether there will be any long term economic benefits is another matter.....
No, my ideal wouldn't involve anything like a British Empire at all, I don't see Britain as central in that way. I would like to see national governments weakened and progress in the direction of a world government. I think the EU is a significant step in that direction.
It's a contradiction, but part of me would also enjoy seeing Scotland declare its independence, not for very praiseworthy or sensible reasons, but because of the trouble it would cause for the British Establishment.
Sounds a good ideal, Bernie. And believe it or not I agree with you wrt the EU, or even world govt. Within that framework smaller nations should be able to flourish. Many SNP supporters would probably also concur. They're not all goose-stepping nazis y'know.
Well said Danny. So, Bernie was serious, and not taking the urine after all..
Bernie, following on from your thinking with regards to it not being up to the Scots, or anyone else, to decide what they want to do on a particular day - I'd hate to live in a world like that. Imagine a world with one culture - no diversity at all. This puts me in mind of the Glaswegian singer, Adam McNaughton's song about the wee boy who used lots of colours to paint when he first went to school, but had that knocked out of him by the teacher. I'm sure you'll know the song I mean, Danny.
Vive la diference! (please excuse the bad French, I only got a C in my O Grade French).
Bernie, I think you have to be more realistic - a form of world government simply ain't gonna happen. God (if there is one) help us if it ever does.
Adam McNaughton might have sung that song, Ron - the late Iain MacIntosh certainly used to - but I 'm pretty sure it was written by Harry Chapin. "Flowers Are Red", I think was the title.
[ Might give you a call at the week-end to see what's up. ]
There are Scottish tunes and there are "Scottish tunes that Irish musicians play" - slightly different categories.
I'm not too sure about St Andrews. Scotland has a unique celebration already in Hogmanay and the two New Year's holiday days.
There's never been any particular feeling for St Andrew in Soctland that I can discern, to compare with St Patrick in Ireland.
No one's going to say "no" to an extra holiday designed to tell us how great we are (I've only been here 25 years so excuse the presumption of "we") , but it reeks of the embarrassing Paddy's Day-envy seen in the bogus "St George" cult in England.
Just watch they don't nick the extra day off at New Year when you're not looking
Ach Bren, it's nothing to do with envy at all - you know, as well as I do, that it would just be an excuse for another p*ss-up. Now where did I put the bloody paracetamol....?
I'd never actually thought of taking it as a holiday...but why not?
I see where you're coming from Bren as an answer to St Patrick's day. But look at it this way. After nearly every Paddy's Day down here, which I often celebrate in the form of some session, paid or not, I'm thinking, why can't we do the same? Then after every St. Andrew's Day, I think, hell, missed it again!...and after every St.George's Day.... I feel a wee bit scared... and naked...and a sweaty sock sticking out like a sore thumb, with all those St. George's flags all over the place...and I think of ethnic cleansing in Former Yugoslavia....OK, I'm exagerating. So maybe there is a wee bit of envy...and defiance. Anyway the session was good, and a wee bit different last night!
My Grandfather, Thomas Kielty, was born in Sligo. His Grandmother was Scottish, came over from the Isle of Skye in the Hebrides to marry an Irishman, I gather it was unheard of in those days. Daring for him, and suicidal for her!
Bernie, following on from your thinking with regards to it not being up to the Scots, or anyone else, to decide what they want to do on a particular day - I'd hate to live in a world like that. Imagine a world with one culture - no diversity at all.
..............................................
I think I was imagining a world with no culture and infinite diversity.
There are plenty of countries which have just one culture and very little diversity, places like Iran. Life for an ordinary person there would be like living in a world with one culture and no diversity. I would hate that.
The idea that all Scots should celebrate St Andrew is the same thing on a less totalitarian scale, it's a remnant of a time when we too were controlled by religion in the service of the state.
........................................
Then you said:
Bernie, I think you have to be more realistic - a form of world government simply ain't gonna happen. God (if there is one) help us if it ever does.
......................................
I'm not surprised you are sceptical about the idea of a world government, but I don't think you should dismiss it out of hand. Think about what is happening in Europe. That is a sizeable chunk of the world, and it has made significant steps towards a single government, and the process goes on. Countries have to comply with certain standards before they can join, and laws are made which all members have to comply with. I can't see any reason in principle why this shouldn't extend to the whole world. I don't believe it will happen in my time, but I don't think it is impossible, and I think it would be a good general principal to try to work towards it.
I really didn't mean to write any more about this.
Bernie - I didn't know Iran had very little culture - they have several languages so I'm surprised. But I know not much more than that, so maybe I shouldn't be (surprised.)
Remember, further up this thread I did say "should" was said tongue in cheek. So I totally agree with you - if Scots were "forced" to "celebrate" St Andrew's Day that would be totally totalitarian.
I think I mostly agree with your general sentiments here, we're probably just looking at it from different angles.
Bernie, I'm not going to waste any more time on this thread. I could continue, have even written screeds, but deleted it. We'll obviously never agree about a number of things, although I probably agree with you on more than you may think we might regarding ideals. However, I suspect I'm more of a pragmatist - you're probably more of an optimist. My professional background is science-based - I deal with facts, I suspect yours is otherwise.
Hope you had a good St. Andrews Day, and are looking forward to Christmas and Hogmany BTW, if you have children, do you give them Christmas presents?
Just to clarify things, I should have said I *prefer* to deal with facts.
Also, my comments regarding Christmas may seem very mean-spirited, but I'd be interested to hear if Bernie celebrates Christmas in any way at all, given his comments so far.
St. Patrick has the edge over St. Andrew and St. George in that he actually lived in the country that celebrates his day - even though he wasn't Irish. I think the St. George flag took off in England as a moniker for football fans, etc. I don't know if we ever even had bits of him.
I do have children, they are adults now, and I also have a wife who doesn't think exactly like me.
Also, it's an important guiding principle for me always to remember that I might be wrong.
Consequently I've tried not to impose my beliefs on my children (or on my wife!). So the boys went to a mildly religious local school, and Christmas has been mildly celebrated in my family. The family do know what I think, the boys are atheists but not militant as I am.
I do hate what happens at Christmas, I usually try to ignore it as much as possible and it is a lovely feeling when it is over. I have tried different ways to deal with it, last year I made it a lot more enjoyable by telling everyone I was havinga Pagan Festival, I made myself a gorgeous costume with a pointed hat and I conducted various ceremonies during the day which involved burning small symbolic items in a brass bowl so that the participants would have good luck in the coming year.
My dear mother-in-law's expression when I went to her house in the costume to pick her up and bring her along for Christmas dinner was reward enough.
I was wondering what to do this year, and I read an article in the paper this morning about the graffitti artist Banksy who I admire. He is opening a gallery/shop in London in the run-up to Christmas, because, he says, he was worried about what is happening to Christmas: he feels that it is becoming decommercialised and more religious, so he is countering that by offering people useless and rather expensive things to buy. I've decided to try to follow his example in my own way this Christmas. I might let you know how that goes.
I don't celebrate New Year, I ignore it, that's easier as it doesn't go on long. I try to video some interesting TV programmes, stay in and watch them, play some music.
I don't quite see what you are getting at when you talk about "facts". Facts are very important to me in areas of life where facts are important, for example when I worked as an accident investigator.
Ok, I understand what you're saying regarding balancing your beliefs with those of your wife's - i'm sure that it sometimes isn't straightforward to do so.
You sound like your good craic regarding your alternative Christmas celebrations - good luck there.
Regarding my reference to "facts", I'll clarify that in an e-mail to you, via this website, rather than potentially start world war III - not with yourself, I hasten to add... but I'm sure that what I say, may offend people in certain quarters.
Certain groups seem to think they have a special right not to be offended, religious believers in particular. They don't have any such right. Personally I go out of my way to offend them.
Hi Bernie, fair play to you. However, my approach to others with different beliefs, or indeed simply opinions from myself, is generally to accept & respect that they see things differently from myself - the emphasis being on the word "generally". I don't really see what there is to be gained from trying to offend people - I think that talking civilly achieves much more.
Bernie, I'll retract what I just said regarding differing opinions, but NOT regarding different beliefs (specifically referring to religion here), as I have been known to have a bit of fun goading people on - and on this website too
It's precisely because religion unjustifiably claims a special privilege that I go out of my way to demonstrate my lack of respect for religious beliefs. Why should we be expected to respect foolish and harmful nonsense? Of course the ignorant or deluded people who hold such beliefs deserve respect as human beings, but it's open season on their beliefs.
Well Bernie, I understand where you're coming from, but I certainly differ in my approach to such matters. Anyway, all the best to you - I think I'll sign off from this thread now.
Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
It is Saint Andrew's Day tomorrow, 30th November. On that day, Scottish people celebrate St Andrew's Day. Or at least they should do. To celebrate we will be playing predominantly Scottish tunes at The Blythe Hill Tavern Thursday night session. Anyone else doing similar?
In case you don't know what I'm bladdering on about, the patron saint of Scotland is Saint Andrew, who was one of the Twelve Apostles and brother of Simon Peter (Saint Peter). As a fisherman he lived in Galilee, now in present-day Israel.
Legend has it that after he died by crucixion (supposedly hence the saltire) a certain St. Regulus (or Rule) carried the bones of St. Andrew to Scotland. His ship was wrecked on the Fife coast, the spot at which the ship landed becoming the site of the town of St. Andrews. A cathedral was founded there in 1160, taking 158 years to build thus the town became an important site of Christian pilgrimage.
Another legend has it that two monks from the North of England went to Rome and brought back the relics of St. Andrew. One of the monks passed the relics on to the reigning king in Scotland at the time - Angus McFergus who became king in 731.
The Scottish flag is the cross of St. Andrew, also known as the Saltire, and is alleged to be one of the oldest national flags of any country, dating back at least to the 12th century.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
I've never heard of Scots celebrating St Andrew's day, I thought they were still all hung over from Hogwatch Night or whatever they call it.
But will tomorrow be Rob Andrew's Day?
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
This, coming from one of the hordes kicking poor TheNextStage when he was down, presumably for the sin of saying "Newfie".
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11865/comments#comment241080
Need I say more, other than point this out?
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Who says the Scots "should" be joining in with this silly old cult? Much better now people are starting to think more for themselves. Just look at the damage adherence to these absurd superstitions is causing in the world.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by Bernie 29
Saint Andrew's Day - your fave STM tunes
Well, what are they?
Some of mine that I enjoy to play a lot are
Jenny's gone to Linton
Niel Gow
Burning of the piper's hut
Staten Is
Flowers of Edinburgh
Mason's Apron
Spoot o Skerry
Willafjord
Stool of Repentance
A maj - the way forward !
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by domhnall.
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Well Bernie 29,
I think it's best to leave it up to the Scots as to whether or not we'll celebrate another of these "absurd" traditions. There would appear to be increasing interest in doing so up here, as it so happens. I personally don't see the harm in it, and I'm not in the least bit interested in religion. It is part of our cultural identitiy after all - whether you believe any of it or not. I don't understand how you can say that celebrating it may cause damage to the world - I think you may well find that your remarks cause offence in some quarters....this being one of them.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by On Sabbatical
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
In thon Sassenach's bio he says he has Scots tunes in his repertoire. Go figure....
"Should" shouldn't...or may not...be taken too literally, or seriously. That's wot is known as a "figure of speech."
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Domnull - Spoot O' Skerry and Willafjord are both Shetland tunes.
Do Shetlanders celebrate St. Andrew's Day? Or do they prefer to celebrate St. Olaf's or St. Magnus' Day or some such like? (Who is the Patron Saint of Norway? Does Shetland have its own Patron Saint?) Or are their loyalties split?
This is spoon posting as mousemusic.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by mousemusic
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Ok Danny - won't take too seriously right enough
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by On Sabbatical
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
STM tunes I like include:
Several of Phil Cunningham's, well within the traditional field,
The Dark Island,
Some 2/4 dotted pipe marches, e.g. Major Manson,
Some pipe jigs - The Thief Of Lochaber, Alan McPherson Of Mosspark, etc. (Pipe tunes are often called after people whose names are hard to remember),
Repeal The Poll Tax, recently composed,
The Dean Brig strathspey, worth buying an Eb whistle for,
Some of the anthemic song tunes, e.g. Will Ye No' Come Back Again.
- But I find A Major and related keys a bugger to play in.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
The Aird Ranters
Pressed for Time
Thunderstruck
Jenny Dang the Weaver
Sandy Broon's
The High Drive
The Road to Banff
250 to Vigo
The Braes of Castle Grant
Dr Macphail's Reel
Montgomery Bell Waltz
Duncan Johnstone
Jenna Reid of Quarff
Night in that Land
The Sleeping Tune
Honk Toot
The Dirty Bee
All fantastic tunes, mostly new compositions (to annoy the purists/stick in the muds). There are many more. Why save all of these tunes for St Andrew's Day? Play them every day of the year. You will be happier for it.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Waht about some with just Scottish names?
Lucy Campbell's
Lord McDonald's
Hmm...maybe we shouldn't mention those two surnames together......
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
I've been playing "The Night We had the Goats" today - a great old tune, but just what does the title mean? Is "the Goats" a euphemism for a some kind of intestinal malfunction? Another great tune is Back of Change-House but I don't know what one of those is. Natalie MacMaster plays them - she is the bee's knees!
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by RichardB
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
And let's not forget Lady Mary Montague (reel)
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
The Laird Of Drumblair is a very good tune, but it's so often the "token Scottish tune" at sessions...
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
"Lady Mary Montague" is the first tune on the second track of Ben Lennon's "Dog Big And Dog Little" CD, where it's paired with the The Humours of Westport.
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
The Flowers of Edinburgh, the much 'loved' Fairy Dance and The Back O' Benachie (which I don't think is on this site)... in fact so many here's a link:
http://www.nigelgatherer.com/tunes/tab/tab1.html
and another one:
http://softflute.co.uk/music/abc/index.htm
If St. Andrew's Day is "a silly old cult" (Bernie 29) does the same apply to St Patrick's day... just wondering....
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by JonB
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Don't call Bernie a silly old cult. no need to be rude
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
The silly old cult I had in mind was Christianity MandolinWind, so yes, St Patrick would certainly be included. Christianity has been no friend of music in Ireland. Priests don't like dancing.
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Bernie 29
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
But what about St Cecilia, patron saint of music?
http://www.st-ceciliatide.com/stce.htm
I'm not a christian either but you don't find that a bit of a sweeping statement, I suppose?
Who said there was no celebrations?
http://www.scotlandistheplace.com/stitp/sta_display2.jsp?pContentID=1247&p_applic=CCC&p_service=Content.show&;
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Just had lunch at the staff canteen... guess what was on offer?
Haggis, neeps, tatties and courgette flan.
Courgettes must be native to Scotland I'sp'ose
No mince and onions
... and dessert was not deep fried mars bar
Background music from band of the black watch. How I wished I'd some Back o the moon or John McCusker CDs to hand.
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by stripthewillow
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
“Christianity has been no friend of music in Ireland”
You mean like these gentlemen ?
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/855
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/981
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Kenny
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Well, it's today (St Andrew's day) and here we are back to talking about *Irish* music (well, what would you expect?)
Also what about Fr. Kelly, who died earlier this year, and Fr. Quinn, who both influenced Sean Ryan? (Who composed the Reel of Rio and 200+ other tunes.)
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
How the hell is a jockanese musican or member of the pub'ic going to know an irish reel from a scottish one bar the title ? Even thats not always the case, it will have to be down to a choice of songs I would have thought to show some real dedication.
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
The Reel of Rio was written by Rio Ferdinand.
I don't know where you're getting your information Danny.
;o)
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
I've been thinking about this.
Ron P, I don't really agree that it should be left to Scots people to decide what Scots people should do. I think my ideal is that we should all be subject to the same laws and rules, so I think I am opposed to Scots nationalism for example. That is despite the fact that I seem to much prefer the laws as Scotland is developing them, and the way Scotland is being governed.
For the same reason I also like the European Community, even though there are many aspects of the laws it makes that I find irritating.
I think this also explains why I react badly to the idea that a certain nation ought to do such and such on a particular day, and all the more so that they ought to do this on behalf of a religious figure. I find religious and nationist attachments equally divisive, they don't fit in with my idea that we should all be subject to the same rules. For related reasons I don't think religion should play a part in public life.
I've also realised that this is not an ideal venue for this sort of discussion, but I do find it interesting, so I propose to go and discuss this further on a Philosophy message board somewhere and not to mention politics or religion here again.
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Bernie 29
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Bernie - so it seems to me, taking your argument to its logical conclusion, you would have Ireland (all of it that is) back in the British Empire?
Sod it even if we are talking politics on a music website. I think it is important to distinguish between what you call nationalism, and the will of a small nation, dominated by a much bigger neighbour, for self-determination.
(and here's me a Scot living in London! - not that I think that makes any difference.)
BTW, I know my Scottish history. The Union of Parliament in 1707 was entered into by Scotland willingly, albeit begrudged, after they lost most of their national wealth in the Darien expedition. The bourgeoisie knew it would benefit them to join up with England. The Union didn't benefit the working or agrarian class one bit, and they lost their sense of identity, which Scots had maintained since Kenneth McAlpin's unification in 844 AD, so nearly 1000 years.
If the SNP win any more seats, which they probably will, they could possibly declare some kind of UDI, so it will merely be a return to Scotlands default state of nationhood. Whether there will be any long term economic benefits is another matter.....
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Oh, and BTW, we did play a fair number of Scottish tunes, and not just the Jig of Slurs/Atholl Highlanders set.
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Hi maniac,
No, my ideal wouldn't involve anything like a British Empire at all, I don't see Britain as central in that way. I would like to see national governments weakened and progress in the direction of a world government. I think the EU is a significant step in that direction.
It's a contradiction, but part of me would also enjoy seeing Scotland declare its independence, not for very praiseworthy or sensible reasons, but because of the trouble it would cause for the British Establishment.
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Bernie 29
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Sounds a good ideal, Bernie. And believe it or not I agree with you wrt the EU, or even world govt. Within that framework smaller nations should be able to flourish. Many SNP supporters would probably also concur. They're not all goose-stepping nazis y'know.
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Well said Danny. So, Bernie was serious, and not taking the urine after all..
Bernie, following on from your thinking with regards to it not being up to the Scots, or anyone else, to decide what they want to do on a particular day - I'd hate to live in a world like that. Imagine a world with one culture - no diversity at all. This puts me in mind of the Glaswegian singer, Adam McNaughton's song about the wee boy who used lots of colours to paint when he first went to school, but had that knocked out of him by the teacher. I'm sure you'll know the song I mean, Danny.
Vive la diference! (please excuse the bad French, I only got a C in my O Grade French).
Bernie, I think you have to be more realistic - a form of world government simply ain't gonna happen. God (if there is one) help us if it ever does.
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by On Sabbatical
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Adam McNaughton might have sung that song, Ron - the late Iain MacIntosh certainly used to - but I 'm pretty sure it was written by Harry Chapin. "Flowers Are Red", I think was the title.
[ Might give you a call at the week-end to see what's up. ]
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Kenny
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Aye Kenny, you're right, it was Iain MacIntosh. BTW, I'll be away most of Saturday, but should be around Sunday.
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by On Sabbatical
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
There are Scottish tunes and there are "Scottish tunes that Irish musicians play" - slightly different categories.
I'm not too sure about St Andrews. Scotland has a unique celebration already in Hogmanay and the two New Year's holiday days.
There's never been any particular feeling for St Andrew in Soctland that I can discern, to compare with St Patrick in Ireland.
No one's going to say "no" to an extra holiday designed to tell us how great we are (I've only been here 25 years so excuse the presumption of "we") , but it reeks of the embarrassing Paddy's Day-envy seen in the bogus "St George" cult in England.
Just watch they don't nick the extra day off at New Year when you're not looking
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Bren
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Ach Bren, it's nothing to do with envy at all - you know, as well as I do, that it would just be an excuse for another p*ss-up. Now where did I put the bloody paracetamol....?
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by On Sabbatical
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
I'd never actually thought of taking it as a holiday...but why not?
I see where you're coming from Bren as an answer to St Patrick's day. But look at it this way. After nearly every Paddy's Day down here, which I often celebrate in the form of some session, paid or not, I'm thinking, why can't we do the same? Then after every St. Andrew's Day, I think, hell, missed it again!...and after every St.George's Day.... I feel a wee bit scared... and naked...and a sweaty sock sticking out like a sore thumb, with all those St. George's flags all over the place...and I think of ethnic cleansing in Former Yugoslavia....OK, I'm exagerating. So maybe there is a wee bit of envy...and defiance. Anyway the session was good, and a wee bit different last night!
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
My Grandfather, Thomas Kielty, was born in Sligo. His Grandmother was Scottish, came over from the Isle of Skye in the Hebrides to marry an Irishman, I gather it was unheard of in those days. Daring for him, and suicidal for her!
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by celticagent
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Bernie, following on from your thinking with regards to it not being up to the Scots, or anyone else, to decide what they want to do on a particular day - I'd hate to live in a world like that. Imagine a world with one culture - no diversity at all.
..............................................
I think I was imagining a world with no culture and infinite diversity.
There are plenty of countries which have just one culture and very little diversity, places like Iran. Life for an ordinary person there would be like living in a world with one culture and no diversity. I would hate that.
The idea that all Scots should celebrate St Andrew is the same thing on a less totalitarian scale, it's a remnant of a time when we too were controlled by religion in the service of the state.
........................................
Then you said:
Bernie, I think you have to be more realistic - a form of world government simply ain't gonna happen. God (if there is one) help us if it ever does.
......................................
I'm not surprised you are sceptical about the idea of a world government, but I don't think you should dismiss it out of hand. Think about what is happening in Europe. That is a sizeable chunk of the world, and it has made significant steps towards a single government, and the process goes on. Countries have to comply with certain standards before they can join, and laws are made which all members have to comply with. I can't see any reason in principle why this shouldn't extend to the whole world. I don't believe it will happen in my time, but I don't think it is impossible, and I think it would be a good general principal to try to work towards it.
I really didn't mean to write any more about this.
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Bernie 29
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Bernie - I didn't know Iran had very little culture - they have several languages so I'm surprised. But I know not much more than that, so maybe I shouldn't be (surprised.)
Remember, further up this thread I did say "should" was said tongue in cheek. So I totally agree with you - if Scots were "forced" to "celebrate" St Andrew's Day that would be totally totalitarian.
I think I mostly agree with your general sentiments here, we're probably just looking at it from different angles.
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Bernie, I'm not going to waste any more time on this thread. I could continue, have even written screeds, but deleted it. We'll obviously never agree about a number of things, although I probably agree with you on more than you may think we might regarding ideals. However, I suspect I'm more of a pragmatist - you're probably more of an optimist. My professional background is science-based - I deal with facts, I suspect yours is otherwise.
BTW, if you have children, do you give them Christmas presents?
Hope you had a good St. Andrews Day, and are looking forward to Christmas and Hogmany
# Posted on December 2nd 2006 by On Sabbatical
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Just to clarify things, I should have said I *prefer* to deal with facts.
Also, my comments regarding Christmas may seem very mean-spirited, but I'd be interested to hear if Bernie celebrates Christmas in any way at all, given his comments so far.
# Posted on December 2nd 2006 by On Sabbatical
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
St. Patrick has the edge over St. Andrew and St. George in that he actually lived in the country that celebrates his day - even though he wasn't Irish. I think the St. George flag took off in England as a moniker for football fans, etc. I don't know if we ever even had bits of him.
# Posted on December 2nd 2006 by nicholas
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Hi Ron,
I do have children, they are adults now, and I also have a wife who doesn't think exactly like me.
Also, it's an important guiding principle for me always to remember that I might be wrong.
Consequently I've tried not to impose my beliefs on my children (or on my wife!). So the boys went to a mildly religious local school, and Christmas has been mildly celebrated in my family. The family do know what I think, the boys are atheists but not militant as I am.
I do hate what happens at Christmas, I usually try to ignore it as much as possible and it is a lovely feeling when it is over. I have tried different ways to deal with it, last year I made it a lot more enjoyable by telling everyone I was havinga Pagan Festival, I made myself a gorgeous costume with a pointed hat and I conducted various ceremonies during the day which involved burning small symbolic items in a brass bowl so that the participants would have good luck in the coming year.
My dear mother-in-law's expression when I went to her house in the costume to pick her up and bring her along for Christmas dinner was reward enough.
I was wondering what to do this year, and I read an article in the paper this morning about the graffitti artist Banksy who I admire. He is opening a gallery/shop in London in the run-up to Christmas, because, he says, he was worried about what is happening to Christmas: he feels that it is becoming decommercialised and more religious, so he is countering that by offering people useless and rather expensive things to buy. I've decided to try to follow his example in my own way this Christmas. I might let you know how that goes.
I don't celebrate New Year, I ignore it, that's easier as it doesn't go on long. I try to video some interesting TV programmes, stay in and watch them, play some music.
I don't quite see what you are getting at when you talk about "facts". Facts are very important to me in areas of life where facts are important, for example when I worked as an accident investigator.
# Posted on December 3rd 2006 by Bernie 29
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Hi Bernie,
Ok, I understand what you're saying regarding balancing your beliefs with those of your wife's - i'm sure that it sometimes isn't straightforward to do so.
You sound like your good craic regarding your alternative Christmas celebrations - good luck there.
Regarding my reference to "facts", I'll clarify that in an e-mail to you, via this website, rather than potentially start world war III - not with yourself, I hasten to add... but I'm sure that what I say, may offend people in certain quarters.
# Posted on December 3rd 2006 by On Sabbatical
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Hi Ron,
Certain groups seem to think they have a special right not to be offended, religious believers in particular. They don't have any such right. Personally I go out of my way to offend them.
# Posted on December 4th 2006 by Bernie 29
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Hi Bernie, fair play to you. However, my approach to others with different beliefs, or indeed simply opinions from myself, is generally to accept & respect that they see things differently from myself - the emphasis being on the word "generally". I don't really see what there is to be gained from trying to offend people - I think that talking civilly achieves much more.
# Posted on December 4th 2006 by On Sabbatical
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Bernie, I'll retract what I just said regarding differing opinions, but NOT regarding different beliefs (specifically referring to religion here), as I have been known to have a bit of fun goading people on - and on this website too
# Posted on December 4th 2006 by On Sabbatical
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
It's precisely because religion unjustifiably claims a special privilege that I go out of my way to demonstrate my lack of respect for religious beliefs. Why should we be expected to respect foolish and harmful nonsense? Of course the ignorant or deluded people who hold such beliefs deserve respect as human beings, but it's open season on their beliefs.
# Posted on December 4th 2006 by Bernie 29
Re: Saint Andrew's Day XXXX Tomorrow
Well Bernie, I understand where you're coming from, but I certainly differ in my approach to such matters. Anyway, all the best to you - I think I'll sign off from this thread now.
# Posted on December 4th 2006 by On Sabbatical