I was at a session last night where something extremely awkward came up, and I wondered if this has happened elsewhere, if there are alternative ways I could have handled it, etc.
First, a bit of background: I was once treated badly by someone at this session when I was first there. Occasionally there is some meanness that happens, and I am eager not to reinforce or repeat it. We just don't need any more of what happened to me. After a couple of years, I just started coming back about six weeks ago. I'm careful about session etiquette, and frankly, it will be a while before I'm really relaxed and comfortable there. So for these reasons, I'm not really into being all that confrontational. Plus, the person causing the problem seemed to have a number of friends there.
Unfortunately, last night, someone who wasn't a musician came and sat down beside me, saying to the effect of, I don't play an insturment, but I sit here anyway (she did pull out a bodhran later and thumped on it; someone whispered to her, and she stopped.) The woman simply could not sit still. She chewed gum (loudly) throughout, stood up and held loud, long conversations with a few musicians. She kept knocking into me as she got in and out of her chair. I tried moving away from her, but she kept coming in closer, gum chomping all the way. Finally, I started saying, "Excuse me?" when she'd knock into me. When I leaned back to find that she'd draped herself over the back of my chair (while still kind of sitting in hers), I asked her, "Could you not do that?"
What gives? What could I have done differently about this? I spent the entire session trying not to let her wreck it for me. Thoughts?
What a bitch!!! seriously, was she drunk? who did she think she was, and why did noone tell her to screw off?? I think you would have been well with in your rights to have said, excuse me, could you go sit at the bar please? and why were her friends putting up with this obnoxious behavior?
Kick her in the shins and then whack her over the head with her bodhran. It's the only language people like that understand. And then set fire to her car.
Some people, and it sounds like the person you are discussing, Cathryn, do not pick up on normal signals from others that they have crossed society's boundaries and become obnoxious. They tend to be drawn by the apparent openness of sessions, not realizing that there is structure to these events also. All you can do is be firm but clear in providing them feedback. And you have to provide that negative feedback in a clear and forceful manner most of the time, unfortunately. Remember, the only job that disappears when you ignore it is drying dishes!
Seriously though have you seen John Boorman's film, "The General" with Brendan Gleeson as Martin Cahill - you could try a version of the pool table scene.
Ultimately hanging's too good for these people - it's a good kick up the arse that they need!
Someone that insensitive probably won't even notice your remarks, so you can be fairly free. Remember, people like that aren't normal so you don't need to be sensitive about this.
They turn up from time to time....the fun killers, LOL.
I was once asked by two good friends who were leading a session to come in with guitar and do some pieces as fingerstyle tunes with them. I sneaked in during the session, sat behind someone, backed on my guitar for the time being, which was apparently too loud for her, so I played as quietly as possible, then was told that guitars are not welcome at that session, it's a tunes only session (there WAS one other there though) and then within a few minutes my friends leading asked me up to do a few tunes with them.
It was sort of funny though, it's not a session I usually go to, it's far, but came because I was asked to. So she must have thought I was some dope off the street, since I didn't know too many of the people there, she hadn't seen me there before.
This same person also insulted a friend by telling him he was out of time, when she was. Turns out this one is known for such behavior, so many people have stories.
If anyone pulled that at our session I sure would want to know who did what to whom, and they'd get a curt little lecture. Unless the person was really being obnoxious and couldn't play. Still, there's a nice way to go about it.
Cathryn... i'd just move to the next available seat. Elt her annoy someone else who won't be so nice about it.
This is, of course, just the latest in a long line of questions concerning how one deals with particular obnoxious people at a session. It becomes harder when you are relatively new at a session and the person concerned is known and tolerated by others at the session.
Sometimes the obnoxia are disabled in some way and do not recognize the social language and signals; sometimes they are drunk; sometimes they are fairly harmless and just want to find a way of joining in without having any musical ability themselves.
I think Al Brown said it plainly enough.
It's obviously harder for someone new to a session to know how to deal with another individual; finding the most effective way to make your displeasure known without causing a scene is a fine art in social engineering.
If it's any comfort many of us have had this from time to time, it's one of the drawbacks of playing the music in a public place. Try and have a word with some of the other musicians, see why and how this person is tolerated. You might pick up some clues.
Good luck !
I've encountered people like this off and on. There are ones like you describe, and there are the ones who clap loudly, off beat, and try to talk to you between tunes or direct the session. There are the ones who try to hijack instruments and start trying to play along, and there are some who just want to get close to the music but are too drunk to realize they're disrupting it. The thing they all have in common, besides alcohol, is they believe they have a right to do whatever it is they're doing… and they love the session. In my opinion it's the barman's responsibility to recognize when people are behaving this way and intervene, but sometimes the disturbance goes under even the most vigilant barman’s radar and you have to handle it yourself. The first thing I do is assume the person is just too drunk to realize they’re misbehaving and I let them know in friendly terms that they’re “love” of the session is making it hard to play and could they please enjoy it a bit more quietly and a little further away. Often this works fine and you only need to remind them a couple of times until it sinks in. If that doesn’t work I poke them in the eyes and lead them to the door.
Attack is the best form of defence so I think a quick short sharp wet bitch slap round her face in the ladies room would have shown her right up, and nobody would hate you for it by the sound of it. A similar thing like this happened to me in a surrey pub some years back there was this rude contingent of far right chav types giving it large so as I walked to the gents I bent down to talk to the lout sitting in his chair but I accidently on purpose caught his nose with my forehead I walked off and winked at him and said "oh my god that was an accident sorry mate" they left after 5 mins however I was thinking it could have easily backfired on me and kicked off. It is always the people with a little too much session etiquette that seem to get picked on by these ruthless eejits.
Well Cathryn, I don't know which instrument you play, but there was recently a discussion about overzealous fiddlers being a hazard to health. In that discussion various methods of subtley damaging your neighbour with various instruments were discussed. It might be worth taking a look and picking up some hints. It might also help to practice looking innocent at the same time....not that I would ever condone such practices
"Someone that insensitive probably won't even notice your remarks, so you can be fairly free. Remember, people like that aren't normal so you don't need to be sensitive about this."
Mark, I do trust you were being facetious. If you weren't being facetious, then I seriously and truly hope you end up being constantly surrounded by people with Asperger's syndrome until you realize what a schmuckish attitude that is. Insensitivity to social cues does not invariably equal lack of feeling; sometimes it only equals difficulties with normal perception. People who think in the terms you used make life hell for those who through no fault of their own are unable to conform to social expectations.
Cathryn, I would offer suggestions based on a similar situation at the session I go to. The lady who was chatting and being noisy and intrusive was quietly taken aside by someone who explained to her in a friendly fashion that people were there to play music and were having trouble hearing the music over her chat. It was also pointed out to her that she needed to give the musicians room to play in. She was then offered a chair on the periphery, and asked to save her conversation for the breaks. She had to be asked once more to keep her voice down, but after that she more or less got it.
It turned out she had had no idea there was a difference between a session and a party-type gathering. Since then she has been quite decently behaved.
Since you mentioned that she seemed to be known to several of the others who were there --- are there any of them you could quietly approach and talk to about what happened, see if you can find out why the woman felt it was ok to behave that way and perhaps even ask them to have a chat with her?
Cathryn, is this session in the USA? We here in Australia get a lot of those type of gum chewing loud mouth American tourists. And to be fair we get some nice Yanks as well. These people just need to be told and publicly shamed. Unfortuneately most of them don't realise that their behaviour offends others. Knee-capping is my answer.
Lots of good advice here, especially about the fiddle-as-weapon thread and burning the car<g>.
Seriously, I appreciate your thoughts, and it's all percolating. As much as I would love to engage in some of the more ...active forms of retribution, the bottom line, as we say in Amerikay, is that I really would like this dealt with as painlessly as possible. I don't know what's up with this woman -- a former neighor had Asperger's, and she doesn't seem like that to me -- but something of the sort that makes it hard for her to catch onto social cues is definitely part of the picture here.
I think I am going to have a quiet word with one of the anchors I'm friendly with. He knows her (they were dancing together at one point). She really is disruptive, and it needs to get communicated that there is a problem. And unfortunately, I think I am also just going to have to deal with absolutely everything very directly, and hopefully not angrily, should she sit with me again, e.g., "You're really crowding me" (with memories of the fiddle-as-weapon dancing in my brain<eg>, "You're chewing gum right in my ear," etc.
Thanks for all the good advice. I would absolutely just have moved if that had been an option, but it wasn't, unfortunately.
"Mark, I do trust you were being facetious. If you weren't being facetious, then I seriously and truly hope you end up being constantly surrounded by people with Asperger's syndrome until you realize what a schmuckish attitude that is."
Well, how would I tell? Do they all chew gum a lot?!
Sorry for jumping in late, jam sessions are mostly open showcase time waisters and you get what you get. If you are a serious player, a club-pub w/drinking isn't the place for you. And thats a shame because I know you're looking forward to the fun and art of it.
Ever the best performers in these places get heckled, I know, thats why I don't put myself throught it.
Bruce
Cathryn, just to redress the balance slighty we've never had any 'gum chewing loud mouthed American tourists' in the parts of Australia I frequent. We have had several polite, respectful and highly skilled musicians of a colonial presuasion, though.
And we suffer from exactly the same aggravations at times. A year or two ago I found myself getting irritated by one of our occasional visitors who would come and sit close, then commence to criticise the playing of those around her. Not constructive criticism, mind, but the petty drip-drip-drip kind. "I've never heard THAT before" said in the kind of voice which suggests the speaker would prefer never to hear it again, "It doesn't go like that" (begging the response "it does when I play it , ****head", although I'm far to polite to do such a thing...).
It got to the point where when she came to sit next to me I immediately got up, packed away the box and went to talk to someone else. I only needed to do it twice and she got the message loud and clear. Six months later we were both at a session with only four players - and she was extremely polite to everyone. I think I managed to make the point without being too harsh or hurting her feelings more than I needed to (it was bound to happen one way or another). I'm sure I she wasn't doing it on purpose, but I'm equally sure I'm not the only person she offended.
I suppose I had the distinct advantage of having lots of other people to go and talk to, and other sessions to attend. And also being a well known regular helps... Best of luck in finding your own answer.
TheNextStage.Us says, "Ever the best performers in these places get heckled".
I've been going to sessions for nearly 6 years, averaging 2-3 a week, mostly in England, but a fair number in Ireland as well. I don't recollect any instance of "heckling". There were a couple of occasions, which I recently alluded to, where one or two people were causing a disturbance to the session and other customers in the pub and were promptly ejected by the publican. But those weren't "hecklers", just drunk trouble-makers.
TheNextStage.Us continues, "thats why I don't put myself throught it." Presumably we may not expect to see TheNextStage in a session here any time soon.
First thing I would do is stop going there. It's not an Iriish house. Secondly you are supposed to be trying to play music, not provide therapy for some twistdrill.
How about playing Gypsie Violin instead? we have a female here in our city that is a superb ITM fiddler but she plays with a Gypsie band, More money, better behaved audiences and no wannabes! What more could you wish for?
"jam sessions are mostly open showcase time waisters"
Total crap! A session if for people to play together for their own amusement, it's not a training ground for wannabe pop stars. If that was the case it would be behind closed doors and be either a class or a band rehearsal.
"jam sessions are mostly open showcase time waisters"
My question is how does one waist time? Maybe wanting to do so was the impetus that bought about the hour glass.
As to the topic at hand it seems to me that human behavior in all its splendor can be found in all gatherings be them sessions or simply at the market. Having witnessed the decay of social interaction skills in the metropolitan area I live in I am rarely surprised by the type of behavior that CathrynB describes. I address such actions when they directly effect me in a candid but compassionate way. If I am unsuccessful in my attempts, or care not to be bothered to do so, I simply move on. As Al so eloquently reminded us, the only task accomplished by ignoring it is drying the dishes.
I absolutely agree with NextStage -- sessions are big time waisters. The more time I spend at sessions, the rounder I'm getting. I suspect it's the Guinness.
You know - if you don't ask you never actually know what is going on in someone else's reality...and what else might be going on.
At a small brand new festival recently I was put in the opposite position.....found myself a mostly non participating muso being glared at by would be participants in the session.......when I had happened upon the five matrons who had been the powerhouse behind this new little festival occurring.
None of these dames knew anything about ITM. One was the daughter of the woman who owned the pub the session was being held in, the others had organised accommodation and transport. When the session was small they found 'front row' positions a little way back from the core sessioning group, and finding themselves next to someone who knew a little about ITM and the sessioners...they asked questions about the music and the musicians and I filled in where I could.
The session took off in a big way.....and I found myself being firmly 'held' in the awkward position of muso's in front and behind....and this little row of me and the grand dames in between. All the time they were falling in love with the music and making plans about how to make it happen next year.
By the time the session was in full swing and the muso's had quadrupled....these 70, 80 and 90 year olds were firmly convinced they had the best seats in the house and weren't going to move anywhere. But through nods and winks and some occasional pushing past muso's to the bar....between them they organised most of the free drinks that arrived most of the night to the sessioners.
And the entire time.....at least half a dozen would be sessioners glared at them (and me) fiercely for taking 'their' rightful spots from the door or the back stalls. It wasn't until right at the end of the evening when the 94 year old publican was ushered in to sit amongst my little row of awkwardly seated non muso's by one of the star festival imports who loudly announced who she was......that some of the glares turned to nods and thanks!
Agree totally with Lazyhound (I'd better do - I often am sitting next to him at sessions!) Beyond the music - a lot of the pleasure of sessions is the social interaction - and general tolerance and encouragement of players like myself (a relative beginner) as well as a wide range of ages and 'personality types'. Occasionally - someone will appear who pushes the boundaries of tolerance. A few weeks ago it was a guitarist, who's confidence (aided by alchohol) was way beyond his ability. He strummed completely wrong chords / in wrong keys very loudly. I started with whispered friendly hints, then less friendly critism, - all ignored. Finally, someone braver than me simply told him to stop / leave.
Aside - I'm sure TheNextStage mean well - but are also 'strumming all the wrong chords'. They (he /she?) really need to stop referring to 'performing' if they are not going to upset 'the session'.
CA - A lot of people might "mean well" but if they don't have the faintest clue what they're talking about, they should be "shown the error of their ways".
CA- for the life of me I'm not getting why the ref to performing is so upsetting to some. If you can respond in a thoughtful way ( which is how you write now ) I'll try and get it.
And Key Manic, I do mean well,
TheNextStage, it is because the music this website represent has only recently come to be performed. For many years it has existed as a mainly functional music, the dance tunes in this site's database were used for dancing to, which was an important part of social interaction in rural Ireland, Scotland and Northumberland. Many of the songs from these traditions were work songs - that is they provided a mechanism through which actions could be performed together, be that hauling a rope on a boat (shanties), waulking etc etc. Many of the other songs in the tradition originally existed as songs designed to tell a story of a historical event, as "fables", or as devices through which the traditional way of life could be preserved.
So, the reason why people are upset by the concept of traditional music being performed is that if folk/traditional music is taken into a wider audience without a full understanding of the tradition; the efforts of many musicians to reintroduce folk music into the popular knowledge will become damaged and a bastardisation of the traditions of these islands will instead prevail. Although no music or traditions can ever die completely, they can become extremely marginalised; given the current resurgance of traditional music (but particularly in younger people) it would be a shame if in our overzelousness to popularise trad we instead set back all the good work done over the past 50 years.
I hope this answers your question; I've certainly aimed to respond in a thoughtful, polite and reasoned way.
Bruce... regarding performing and an Irish session: It's true that when you have a session in a public space that punters, (people listening,) might believe they are witnessing a performance. According to the definition a "performance" might be taking place since you have people playing music and an audience listening, but that's where the definition ends and what the musicians are actually doing begins. Unlike with an American Idol performance where every aspect of the music is geared to the audience -- in a session the act of playing is geared towards the musician's mutual enjoyment of the tunes. The session sometimes even continues after the last punter has left the pub.
When the musicians show up at a session it doesn't cross their mind that they will be "performing." To them it's not that different than meeting some friends at the pub for a friendly game of cards. If they were playing cards and some punters found it entertaining... and even applauded to demonstrate their interest and approval -- it's nice, but it wouldn't really matter to the card players.
I hope this helps, but I want you to know that a discussion on this topic reached over 400 replies… twice.
Thank you for both of those.
I'm not married to the American Idol, its a great concept that works all over the world and that I respect.
My site, school has everything more to do with helping everyone get over stage jitters. Thats it! I'm not selling anything.
Playing ITM and calling the 'playing' what you want I also respect.
I really see it it as splitting hairs. I'm sorry for sticking my nose in late and uninformed.
Bruce
There was an audience at our session last Sunday. They seemed to enjoy the music as evidenced with their clapping and such. We didn't show up to entertain them, but that's what happened. The audience nodded goodbye bit by bit and eventually we were the only ones left in the pub besides the barman. The quality of our music and our enjoyment of the tunes didn't change, but I'm not going to deny that there was an audience there who believed they were witnessing a "performance."
We had this at the end of one of our sessions recently. Someone came up and kept telling me we should stop sitting in a circle because that excluded the audience, and turn into a half-circle facing the crowd. I explained more than once that this was the difference between an session and a performance, but he wasn't having it. Fortunately it was at the end of the session when we were all packing up to go anyway. There are one or two regulars at our sessions who would NOT play if it was a performance, but are very happy to play all evening at a session.
Weird! It's like you guys exist in a parallel universe where you go to the pub and there's people there who can see you and hear you -- but you can't see or hear them; you can only be annoyed by them.
There is always a problem when playing in pubs of people who don't understand session music. or even The Music. But there seems to be a problem of musicians who don't understand pubs too.
You enter that environment, random strangers may approach you. There are no rules for dealing with them, you just learn by experience. Sometimes it's annoying, sometimes it's felicitous. I first met my wife when I bumped into her at a pub.
After a person who has played all their lives, and middling well at that, hears the umpteenth badly bowed murder of Cooley's reel ( a flute piece BTW ) either you take the person one side in a headgrip and with a loud hailer into their upturned ear shout " learn to ?????ing bow you common eeeejit before coming out here to deafen the rest of us" Or you stay home and invite folks whom you know will not deafen you.
I suppose I am saying that it comes with the turf, Sessions are bound to attended by wannabes and cold novices - mostly trying to play the fiddle, a few carry bodrahns for show, but those often have a fiddle at home.
It is similar to the Piper's curse, you have it, but you don't....
Well, I think The NextStage has had a bad run for his money, including from me, I'm ashamed to say.
Reading the way people have hounded him makes me squirm and strangely I feel very slightly embarassed. All I can say is I hope we don't carry on like this again.
I'll post this on the other thread also.
KML don't beat yourself up. Re-read this thread and the stagefright thread. In my opinion The NextStage has got off very lightly. He called sessions a waste of time he suggested that a serious player wouldn't lower themselves to play in a pub and went on to 'big himself up' by suggesting that the reason he doesn't attend sessions is because he is one of the best performers! All on a website called 'the session' .
No Flossie, I'm aware of all that. I'm embarassed on behalf of some of the regular contributors here. They seem to have stooped somewhat and become less gracious.
Sorry cathrynb I completely ignored your original dilemma in that last post. A well hihacked thread I think. Concerning your problem lady, perhaps you could spill your beer over her, accidentally of course, if she doesn't move first time she will second. And you can just play the bumbling apologetic fool.
Awkward situation
Awkward situation
Greetings:
I was at a session last night where something extremely awkward came up, and I wondered if this has happened elsewhere, if there are alternative ways I could have handled it, etc.
First, a bit of background: I was once treated badly by someone at this session when I was first there. Occasionally there is some meanness that happens, and I am eager not to reinforce or repeat it. We just don't need any more of what happened to me. After a couple of years, I just started coming back about six weeks ago. I'm careful about session etiquette, and frankly, it will be a while before I'm really relaxed and comfortable there. So for these reasons, I'm not really into being all that confrontational. Plus, the person causing the problem seemed to have a number of friends there.
Unfortunately, last night, someone who wasn't a musician came and sat down beside me, saying to the effect of, I don't play an insturment, but I sit here anyway (she did pull out a bodhran later and thumped on it; someone whispered to her, and she stopped.) The woman simply could not sit still. She chewed gum (loudly) throughout, stood up and held loud, long conversations with a few musicians. She kept knocking into me as she got in and out of her chair. I tried moving away from her, but she kept coming in closer, gum chomping all the way. Finally, I started saying, "Excuse me?" when she'd knock into me. When I leaned back to find that she'd draped herself over the back of my chair (while still kind of sitting in hers), I asked her, "Could you not do that?"
What gives? What could I have done differently about this? I spent the entire session trying not to let her wreck it for me. Thoughts?
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Awkward situation
What a bitch!!! seriously, was she drunk? who did she think she was, and why did noone tell her to screw off?? I think you would have been well with in your rights to have said, excuse me, could you go sit at the bar please? and why were her friends putting up with this obnoxious behavior?
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by BE
Re: Awkward situation
Kick her in the shins and then whack her over the head with her bodhran. It's the only language people like that understand. And then set fire to her car.
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by Mark Harmer
Re: Awkward situation
What a horrible woman.
If you see her again tell her about this site and suggest she read some of the threads on session etiquette.
Mary
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by Antikhntr
Re: Awkward situation
Too bad I can't go with you, Cathryn. I'd sit in the seat and fend her off for you. You need an ally to protect you against drunken obnoxious people!
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Awkward situation
Some people, and it sounds like the person you are discussing, Cathryn, do not pick up on normal signals from others that they have crossed society's boundaries and become obnoxious. They tend to be drawn by the apparent openness of sessions, not realizing that there is structure to these events also. All you can do is be firm but clear in providing them feedback. And you have to provide that negative feedback in a clear and forceful manner most of the time, unfortunately. Remember, the only job that disappears when you ignore it is drying dishes!
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Awkward situation
Maybe she came to frighten you off!!
Seriously though have you seen John Boorman's film, "The General" with Brendan Gleeson as Martin Cahill - you could try a version of the pool table scene.
Ultimately hanging's too good for these people - it's a good kick up the arse that they need!
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Awkward situation
Someone that insensitive probably won't even notice your remarks, so you can be fairly free. Remember, people like that aren't normal so you don't need to be sensitive about this.
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by Mark Harmer
Re: Awkward situation
They turn up from time to time....the fun killers, LOL.
I was once asked by two good friends who were leading a session to come in with guitar and do some pieces as fingerstyle tunes with them. I sneaked in during the session, sat behind someone, backed on my guitar for the time being, which was apparently too loud for her, so I played as quietly as possible, then was told that guitars are not welcome at that session, it's a tunes only session (there WAS one other there though) and then within a few minutes my friends leading asked me up to do a few tunes with them.
It was sort of funny though, it's not a session I usually go to, it's far, but came because I was asked to. So she must have thought I was some dope off the street, since I didn't know too many of the people there, she hadn't seen me there before.
This same person also insulted a friend by telling him he was out of time, when she was. Turns out this one is known for such behavior, so many people have stories.
If anyone pulled that at our session I sure would want to know who did what to whom, and they'd get a curt little lecture. Unless the person was really being obnoxious and couldn't play. Still, there's a nice way to go about it.
Cathryn... i'd just move to the next available seat. Elt her annoy someone else who won't be so nice about it.
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Awkward situation
This is, of course, just the latest in a long line of questions concerning how one deals with particular obnoxious people at a session. It becomes harder when you are relatively new at a session and the person concerned is known and tolerated by others at the session.
Sometimes the obnoxia are disabled in some way and do not recognize the social language and signals; sometimes they are drunk; sometimes they are fairly harmless and just want to find a way of joining in without having any musical ability themselves.
I think Al Brown said it plainly enough.
It's obviously harder for someone new to a session to know how to deal with another individual; finding the most effective way to make your displeasure known without causing a scene is a fine art in social engineering.
If it's any comfort many of us have had this from time to time, it's one of the drawbacks of playing the music in a public place. Try and have a word with some of the other musicians, see why and how this person is tolerated. You might pick up some clues.
Good luck !
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Awkward situation
I've encountered people like this off and on. There are ones like you describe, and there are the ones who clap loudly, off beat, and try to talk to you between tunes or direct the session. There are the ones who try to hijack instruments and start trying to play along, and there are some who just want to get close to the music but are too drunk to realize they're disrupting it. The thing they all have in common, besides alcohol, is they believe they have a right to do whatever it is they're doing… and they love the session. In my opinion it's the barman's responsibility to recognize when people are behaving this way and intervene, but sometimes the disturbance goes under even the most vigilant barman’s radar and you have to handle it yourself. The first thing I do is assume the person is just too drunk to realize they’re misbehaving and I let them know in friendly terms that they’re “love” of the session is making it hard to play and could they please enjoy it a bit more quietly and a little further away. Often this works fine and you only need to remind them a couple of times until it sinks in. If that doesn’t work I poke them in the eyes and lead them to the door.
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Awkward situation
Attack is the best form of defence so I think a quick short sharp wet bitch slap round her face in the ladies room would have shown her right up, and nobody would hate you for it by the sound of it. A similar thing like this happened to me in a surrey pub some years back there was this rude contingent of far right chav types giving it large so as I walked to the gents I bent down to talk to the lout sitting in his chair but I accidently on purpose caught his nose with my forehead I walked off and winked at him and said "oh my god that was an accident sorry mate" they left after 5 mins however I was thinking it could have easily backfired on me and kicked off. It is always the people with a little too much session etiquette that seem to get picked on by these ruthless eejits.
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Awkward situation
Well Cathryn, I don't know which instrument you play, but there was recently a discussion about overzealous fiddlers being a hazard to health. In that discussion various methods of subtley damaging your neighbour with various instruments were discussed. It might be worth taking a look and picking up some hints. It might also help to practice looking innocent at the same time....not that I would ever condone such practices
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by bowburner
Re: Awkward situation
"Someone that insensitive probably won't even notice your remarks, so you can be fairly free. Remember, people like that aren't normal so you don't need to be sensitive about this."
Mark, I do trust you were being facetious. If you weren't being facetious, then I seriously and truly hope you end up being constantly surrounded by people with Asperger's syndrome until you realize what a schmuckish attitude that is. Insensitivity to social cues does not invariably equal lack of feeling; sometimes it only equals difficulties with normal perception. People who think in the terms you used make life hell for those who through no fault of their own are unable to conform to social expectations.
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by sara g
Re: Awkward situation
Cathryn, I would offer suggestions based on a similar situation at the session I go to. The lady who was chatting and being noisy and intrusive was quietly taken aside by someone who explained to her in a friendly fashion that people were there to play music and were having trouble hearing the music over her chat. It was also pointed out to her that she needed to give the musicians room to play in. She was then offered a chair on the periphery, and asked to save her conversation for the breaks. She had to be asked once more to keep her voice down, but after that she more or less got it.
It turned out she had had no idea there was a difference between a session and a party-type gathering. Since then she has been quite decently behaved.
Since you mentioned that she seemed to be known to several of the others who were there --- are there any of them you could quietly approach and talk to about what happened, see if you can find out why the woman felt it was ok to behave that way and perhaps even ask them to have a chat with her?
# Posted on November 27th 2006 by sara g
Re: Awkward situation
Cathryn, is this session in the USA? We here in Australia get a lot of those type of gum chewing loud mouth American tourists. And to be fair we get some nice Yanks as well. These people just need to be told and publicly shamed. Unfortuneately most of them don't realise that their behaviour offends others. Knee-capping is my answer.
Jeremy
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by Tassiebodhran
Re: Awkward situation
Lots of good advice here, especially about the fiddle-as-weapon thread and burning the car<g>.
Seriously, I appreciate your thoughts, and it's all percolating. As much as I would love to engage in some of the more ...active forms of retribution, the bottom line, as we say in Amerikay, is that I really would like this dealt with as painlessly as possible. I don't know what's up with this woman -- a former neighor had Asperger's, and she doesn't seem like that to me -- but something of the sort that makes it hard for her to catch onto social cues is definitely part of the picture here.
I think I am going to have a quiet word with one of the anchors I'm friendly with. He knows her (they were dancing together at one point). She really is disruptive, and it needs to get communicated that there is a problem. And unfortunately, I think I am also just going to have to deal with absolutely everything very directly, and hopefully not angrily, should she sit with me again, e.g., "You're really crowding me" (with memories of the fiddle-as-weapon dancing in my brain<eg>, "You're chewing gum right in my ear," etc.
Thanks for all the good advice. I would absolutely just have moved if that had been an option, but it wasn't, unfortunately.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Awkward situation
"Mark, I do trust you were being facetious. If you weren't being facetious, then I seriously and truly hope you end up being constantly surrounded by people with Asperger's syndrome until you realize what a schmuckish attitude that is."
Well, how would I tell? Do they all chew gum a lot?!
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by Mark Harmer
Re: Awkward situation
Sorry for jumping in late, jam sessions are mostly open showcase time waisters and you get what you get. If you are a serious player, a club-pub w/drinking isn't the place for you. And thats a shame because I know you're looking forward to the fun and art of it.
Ever the best performers in these places get heckled, I know, thats why I don't put myself throught it.
Bruce
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by starting over
Re: Awkward situation
I'm not sure if I agree with anything TheNextStage.Us just said.
Hmmmm...
Nope.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Awkward situation
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11865/comments#comment240757
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by ...
Re: Awkward situation
Thank you, Illig L.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Awkward situation
your welcome
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by ...
Re: Awkward situation
trying hard not to flame.......oy it's hard...*sitting on hands*...
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by meemtp
Re: Awkward situation
Cathryn, just to redress the balance slighty we've never had any 'gum chewing loud mouthed American tourists' in the parts of Australia I frequent. We have had several polite, respectful and highly skilled musicians of a colonial presuasion, though.
And we suffer from exactly the same aggravations at times. A year or two ago I found myself getting irritated by one of our occasional visitors who would come and sit close, then commence to criticise the playing of those around her. Not constructive criticism, mind, but the petty drip-drip-drip kind. "I've never heard THAT before" said in the kind of voice which suggests the speaker would prefer never to hear it again, "It doesn't go like that" (begging the response "it does when I play it , ****head", although I'm far to polite to do such a thing...).
It got to the point where when she came to sit next to me I immediately got up, packed away the box and went to talk to someone else. I only needed to do it twice and she got the message loud and clear. Six months later we were both at a session with only four players - and she was extremely polite to everyone. I think I managed to make the point without being too harsh or hurting her feelings more than I needed to (it was bound to happen one way or another). I'm sure I she wasn't doing it on purpose, but I'm equally sure I'm not the only person she offended.
I suppose I had the distinct advantage of having lots of other people to go and talk to, and other sessions to attend. And also being a well known regular helps... Best of luck in finding your own answer.
Eno
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by bc_box_player
Re: Awkward situation
Eno, that sounds like a great way of handling it, reinforced by the outcome. Bravo.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Awkward situation
Cathryn
I came back to say good bye and good luck in the future with your performing.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by starting over
Re: Awkward situation
TheNextStage.Us says, "Ever the best performers in these places get heckled".
I've been going to sessions for nearly 6 years, averaging 2-3 a week, mostly in England, but a fair number in Ireland as well. I don't recollect any instance of "heckling". There were a couple of occasions, which I recently alluded to, where one or two people were causing a disturbance to the session and other customers in the pub and were promptly ejected by the publican. But those weren't "hecklers", just drunk trouble-makers.
TheNextStage.Us continues, "thats why I don't put myself throught it." Presumably we may not expect to see TheNextStage in a session here any time soon.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Awkward situation
Sounds to me like a bad sit ya ation all roind.
First thing I would do is stop going there. It's not an Iriish house. Secondly you are supposed to be trying to play music, not provide therapy for some twistdrill.
How about playing Gypsie Violin instead? we have a female here in our city that is a superb ITM fiddler but she plays with a Gypsie band, More money, better behaved audiences and no wannabes! What more could you wish for?
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by Schlongbow
Re: Awkward situation
"Would have moved if ---that was an option."
How about trading places with someone else?
That might send a clearer message. I've seen it work before.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Awkward situation
"jam sessions are mostly open showcase time waisters"
Total crap! A session if for people to play together for their own amusement, it's not a training ground for wannabe pop stars. If that was the case it would be behind closed doors and be either a class or a band rehearsal.
You do get what you get, though.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by Paul_draper
Re: Awkward situation
Looks like we have an online version of Cathryn's madwoman right here with us in the form of TheNextStage.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Awkward situation
"jam sessions are mostly open showcase time waisters"
My question is how does one waist time? Maybe wanting to do so was the impetus that bought about the hour glass.
As to the topic at hand it seems to me that human behavior in all its splendor can be found in all gatherings be them sessions or simply at the market. Having witnessed the decay of social interaction skills in the metropolitan area I live in I am rarely surprised by the type of behavior that CathrynB describes. I address such actions when they directly effect me in a candid but compassionate way. If I am unsuccessful in my attempts, or care not to be bothered to do so, I simply move on. As Al so eloquently reminded us, the only task accomplished by ignoring it is drying the dishes.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Awkward situation
for the benefit of anyone who missed it:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11865
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by ...
Re: time waister
I absolutely agree with NextStage -- sessions are big time waisters. The more time I spend at sessions, the rounder I'm getting. I suspect it's the Guinness.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by cuchulain54
Re: Awkward situation
You know - if you don't ask you never actually know what is going on in someone else's reality...and what else might be going on.
At a small brand new festival recently I was put in the opposite position.....found myself a mostly non participating muso being glared at by would be participants in the session.......when I had happened upon the five matrons who had been the powerhouse behind this new little festival occurring.
None of these dames knew anything about ITM. One was the daughter of the woman who owned the pub the session was being held in, the others had organised accommodation and transport. When the session was small they found 'front row' positions a little way back from the core sessioning group, and finding themselves next to someone who knew a little about ITM and the sessioners...they asked questions about the music and the musicians and I filled in where I could.
The session took off in a big way.....and I found myself being firmly 'held' in the awkward position of muso's in front and behind....and this little row of me and the grand dames in between. All the time they were falling in love with the music and making plans about how to make it happen next year.
By the time the session was in full swing and the muso's had quadrupled....these 70, 80 and 90 year olds were firmly convinced they had the best seats in the house and weren't going to move anywhere. But through nods and winks and some occasional pushing past muso's to the bar....between them they organised most of the free drinks that arrived most of the night to the sessioners.
And the entire time.....at least half a dozen would be sessioners glared at them (and me) fiercely for taking 'their' rightful spots from the door or the back stalls. It wasn't until right at the end of the evening when the 94 year old publican was ushered in to sit amongst my little row of awkwardly seated non muso's by one of the star festival imports who loudly announced who she was......that some of the glares turned to nods and thanks!
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by FiddleFancy
Re: Awkward situation
Agree totally with Lazyhound (I'd better do - I often am sitting next to him at sessions!) Beyond the music - a lot of the pleasure of sessions is the social interaction - and general tolerance and encouragement of players like myself (a relative beginner) as well as a wide range of ages and 'personality types'. Occasionally - someone will appear who pushes the boundaries of tolerance. A few weeks ago it was a guitarist, who's confidence (aided by alchohol) was way beyond his ability. He strummed completely wrong chords / in wrong keys very loudly. I started with whispered friendly hints, then less friendly critism, - all ignored. Finally, someone braver than me simply told him to stop / leave.
Aside - I'm sure TheNextStage mean well - but are also 'strumming all the wrong chords'. They (he /she?) really need to stop referring to 'performing' if they are not going to upset 'the session'.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by Col Arco
Re: Awkward situation
CA - A lot of people might "mean well" but if they don't have the faintest clue what they're talking about, they should be "shown the error of their ways".
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Awkward situation
CA- for the life of me I'm not getting why the ref to performing is so upsetting to some. If you can respond in a thoughtful way ( which is how you write now ) I'll try and get it.
And Key Manic, I do mean well,
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by starting over
Re: Awkward situation
TheNextStage, it is because the music this website represent has only recently come to be performed. For many years it has existed as a mainly functional music, the dance tunes in this site's database were used for dancing to, which was an important part of social interaction in rural Ireland, Scotland and Northumberland. Many of the songs from these traditions were work songs - that is they provided a mechanism through which actions could be performed together, be that hauling a rope on a boat (shanties), waulking etc etc. Many of the other songs in the tradition originally existed as songs designed to tell a story of a historical event, as "fables", or as devices through which the traditional way of life could be preserved.
So, the reason why people are upset by the concept of traditional music being performed is that if folk/traditional music is taken into a wider audience without a full understanding of the tradition; the efforts of many musicians to reintroduce folk music into the popular knowledge will become damaged and a bastardisation of the traditions of these islands will instead prevail. Although no music or traditions can ever die completely, they can become extremely marginalised; given the current resurgance of traditional music (but particularly in younger people) it would be a shame if in our overzelousness to popularise trad we instead set back all the good work done over the past 50 years.
I hope this answers your question; I've certainly aimed to respond in a thoughtful, polite and reasoned way.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by Andy V
Re: Awkward situation
Bruce... regarding performing and an Irish session: It's true that when you have a session in a public space that punters, (people listening,) might believe they are witnessing a performance. According to the definition a "performance" might be taking place since you have people playing music and an audience listening, but that's where the definition ends and what the musicians are actually doing begins. Unlike with an American Idol performance where every aspect of the music is geared to the audience -- in a session the act of playing is geared towards the musician's mutual enjoyment of the tunes. The session sometimes even continues after the last punter has left the pub.
When the musicians show up at a session it doesn't cross their mind that they will be "performing." To them it's not that different than meeting some friends at the pub for a friendly game of cards. If they were playing cards and some punters found it entertaining... and even applauded to demonstrate their interest and approval -- it's nice, but it wouldn't really matter to the card players.
I hope this helps, but I want you to know that a discussion on this topic reached over 400 replies… twice.
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Awkward situation
Thank you for both of those.
I'm not married to the American Idol, its a great concept that works all over the world and that I respect.
My site, school has everything more to do with helping everyone get over stage jitters. Thats it! I'm not selling anything.
Playing ITM and calling the 'playing' what you want I also respect.
I really see it it as splitting hairs. I'm sorry for sticking my nose in late and uninformed.
Bruce
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by starting over
Re: Awkward situation
It's not splitting hairs It's very straight forward. You perform to an audience. At a session, their is no audience
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by ...
Re: Awkward situation
There was an audience at our session last Sunday. They seemed to enjoy the music as evidenced with their clapping and such. We didn't show up to entertain them, but that's what happened. The audience nodded goodbye bit by bit and eventually we were the only ones left in the pub besides the barman. The quality of our music and our enjoyment of the tunes didn't change, but I'm not going to deny that there was an audience there who believed they were witnessing a "performance."
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Awkward situation
Nice one, llig. Very zen. (The sound of no hands clapping?)
# Posted on November 28th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Awkward situation
We had this at the end of one of our sessions recently. Someone came up and kept telling me we should stop sitting in a circle because that excluded the audience, and turn into a half-circle facing the crowd. I explained more than once that this was the difference between an session and a performance, but he wasn't having it. Fortunately it was at the end of the session when we were all packing up to go anyway. There are one or two regulars at our sessions who would NOT play if it was a performance, but are very happy to play all evening at a session.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Awkward situation
Would they still play if there were people listening, enjoying the music and even clapping now and then?
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Awkward situation
Those people don't exist.
It's a case of mind over matter: If you don't mind, it don't matter.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Awkward situation
Weird! It's like you guys exist in a parallel universe where you go to the pub and there's people there who can see you and hear you -- but you can't see or hear them; you can only be annoyed by them.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Awkward situation
There is always a problem when playing in pubs of people who don't understand session music. or even The Music. But there seems to be a problem of musicians who don't understand pubs too.
You enter that environment, random strangers may approach you. There are no rules for dealing with them, you just learn by experience. Sometimes it's annoying, sometimes it's felicitous. I first met my wife when I bumped into her at a pub.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by Bren
Re: Awkward situation
Sessions. Ohhhkaaay
After a person who has played all their lives, and middling well at that, hears the umpteenth badly bowed murder of Cooley's reel ( a flute piece BTW ) either you take the person one side in a headgrip and with a loud hailer into their upturned ear shout " learn to ?????ing bow you common eeeejit before coming out here to deafen the rest of us" Or you stay home and invite folks whom you know will not deafen you.
I suppose I am saying that it comes with the turf, Sessions are bound to attended by wannabes and cold novices - mostly trying to play the fiddle, a few carry bodrahns for show, but those often have a fiddle at home.
It is similar to the Piper's curse, you have it, but you don't....
Oh never mind.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by Schlongbow
Re: Awkward situation
some people lack social skills. it's not their fault. you should simply move away. you can't change her behavior without making it worse.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by celticagent
Re: Awkward situation
"you guys exist in a parallel universe"
Maybe. You should ask llig. He's the zen master, I'm just the Grasshopper. ;>}
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Awkward situation
Well, I think The NextStage has had a bad run for his money, including from me, I'm ashamed to say.
Reading the way people have hounded him makes me squirm and strangely I feel very slightly embarassed. All I can say is I hope we don't carry on like this again.
I'll post this on the other thread also.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Awkward situation
KML don't beat yourself up. Re-read this thread and the stagefright thread. In my opinion The NextStage has got off very lightly. He called sessions a waste of time he suggested that a serious player wouldn't lower themselves to play in a pub and went on to 'big himself up' by suggesting that the reason he doesn't attend sessions is because he is one of the best performers! All on a website called 'the session' .
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by flossie
Re: Awkward situation
No Flossie, I'm aware of all that. I'm embarassed on behalf of some of the regular contributors here. They seem to have stooped somewhat and become less gracious.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Awkward situation
Sorry cathrynb I completely ignored your original dilemma in that last post. A well hihacked thread I think. Concerning your problem lady, perhaps you could spill your beer over her, accidentally of course, if she doesn't move first time she will second. And you can just play the bumbling apologetic fool.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by flossie
Re: Awkward situation
flossie, I'm sorry that I left you with that impression. That was not my intent.
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by starting over
Re: Awkward situation
what was your intent?
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by BE
Re: Awkward situation
Not to leave flossie with that impression..Da!
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by starting over
Re: Awkward situation
the Da part wasn't nessissary, I'm taking it back
# Posted on November 29th 2006 by starting over
Re: Awkward situation
That's OK son.
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Bren
Re: Awkward situation
*sigh..*
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by BE