After attending a session a few times and always sitting in the back, I was suddenly (and completely unexpectedly, at least on my part) ushered into the inner circle a couple of hours into the session. My question is, how seriously should I take this? When I show up again, should I resume my place at the center of things or return to the back which frankly feels more natural, especially since I don't know all that many of their tunes yet?
This is a session that takes its etiquette very seriously. And as snide as I am about it all, I do enjoy making music there and wish not to make a presumptuous gaffe.
All input will be considered! I'd write to Miss Manners, but somehow, I think session etiquette is something she hasn't covered yet <gg>.
Just take the Bull by the horns and ask someone in the inner circle if it's ok. If you don't like that direct approach, then go back to the fringes and wait and see if they ask you again. If not that says something about your session - not sure I like it either.
Good luck
If I'm right you're talking about the Starry Session... right? If so, I haven't been there in ages, but from what I recall that's a rather large session and Shay Black runs it kind of like a Ceoltas style session where he calls for songs, dancers, invites soloist to play and that sort of thing. If you're sitting toward the back it isolates you from the tunes and whether you know all their tunes or not doesn't matter as much as just concentrating the instruments so there's more unity in the sound. I would suggest next time you can pretty much assume it's ok to be sitting with the other instrumentalists, especially since they invited you in, but just make sure you aren't taking a regular's seat.
I've never come across an "inner circle" at a session.It sounds like one of Sax Rohmer's characters gaining entrance to the den of the Secret Seven.What a load of elitist crap.A session should be open to everyone.Democracy rules!
Actually, I try to work it the other way round. Where every one is welcome. Until they prove themselves beyond redemption. Then they get either frozen out or told to shut up
I like your approach, Michael, but I also don't like freezing people out... preferring to tell them what I think. It's their choice to learn or to take offence. I believe this is the honest way, but it has a very bad influence on my reputation. Not that I mind.
Your reputation aint worth shinola in this town! ;o)
In principle I disagree with the idea of an inner circle; sometimes it happens by accident rather than design, or accidentally on purpose.
Anyway what really gets my goat is the act of inviting someone to join the inner circle - "we think you're just about good enough to join in with the likes of us". While it is probably a nice thing for the person being invited, I would imagine it goes down like a lead balloon with those on the fringes.
I will reserve judgement on those people that run these kinds of sessions; to me it seems odd, elitist, patronising even. However it's my guess that this situation is borne of necessity.
"Your reputation aint worth shinola in this town!"
Oh yes, mister? Now YOU try to come over and get into the inner, nay, even outer orbits of MY sessions... True was the saying of my great-grand-uncle, who repeated ad nauseam: there are two things inherently wrong in the world: generalizations and PA players!
As to people who promote 'inner circle' sessions, I get a very similar impression - it's a bit like creating a fake aura of importance around the session. I wouldn't jump too fast to conclusions, maybe necessity there is - however, there are many ways to deal with most problems, and everyone chooses the way which is the closest to their personality.
If its the Plough, if you get there late, there is no way to get a chair close to the front. so Get there early. I showed up with my pipes in the back and got asked to play a tune and even got asked to come back
That's a sure way to get people's backs up too. Especially those lay out all their stuff and "set themselves up" before everyone else arrives.
Getting early is one thing but I like to "suss out" the situation, especially if it's a strange session, and I'll usually sit adjacent to the "Reserved for musicians" table until the others arrive.
One time, I actually sat at the table in a Glasgow session pub to wait as the surrounding tables were occupied. I'd every intention of moving to allow the regulars space when they arrived but the bar waitress actually informed me "Sorry, this table is reserved for musicians". I pointed to my instrument and explained that I had come for the session.
"You're not one of the regulars", I was informed. However, this particular session is and was advertised as "Open".
Now, the bar person probably didn't quite understand this concept but was obviously used to seeing the same "hard core" of musicians at the "Top table".
As our publican limits the numbers of musicians who can play at any given time (and you can imagine how popular THAT rule is), we are lucky to form a single semi-circle, let alone multiple layers of musicians. So we try to take turns when there are too many present, with the paid session leader calling the shots, and trying to make it fair.
The truth is, I really dislike the whole Inner Circle thing, the elitism, and the mean stuff that occasionally results. I've run into at least a handful of SF Bay Area musicians who avoid this session for those reasons, and at one point, I was sure I'd never darken its door again. Unfortunately for me, it's presently the only place where I can go to play music at that level.
I don't think I would ever set up a session to run in this way, certainly. That said, I think I understand how it ended up the way it is. This is a famous session, and no doubt it draws all kinds. And they're trying to keep it at a certain level. Ah well. It really is the only option at present.
After reading the posts and my own question, I realized that I had my answer. It's a fact that I don't know a lot of their tunes, though I am learning. Don't have much time to play these days, but I do have time to listen, e.g., in the car, So I record (after checking that nobody minded). I just don't know enough tunes to be all that comfortable sitting in the Inner Circle for the whole evening with my tape recorder up and my fiddle down. So I'll position myself near the IC, but not quite in it, but will enter if invited again.
It really was helpful to read all these comments. Thanks.
Al - A limit on the number of players? That sounds like hell. Imagine - sitting there, instrument in hand, when one of your favourite tunes comes up, and having to hold off because it's not 'your turn' to play! I couldn't do it. I'd explode - or just start playing involuntarily.
Cathryn, have you ever considered the SF Plough? The sessions are much smaller, i.e. no inner circle, and the one on the second to last Tuesday has been designated a beginner’s session and is deliberately slower. The other sessions are good for listening if you feel that they are too advanced for you, but everyone's welcome regardless of their level. We've had folks come in and sit with their instrument on their lap obviously not knowing our tunes, and when we ask them to play it's obvious that they're just getting started, but that doesn't matter and we'll play their tunes at their speed. It only becomes a problem if they try to dominate the session or start to audibly noodle on every tune. But this is rare and most folks are very nice and don't disrupt things unintentionally or otherwise.
Thanks for the kind invite, but I live in Danville! And I am a morning person. A 9:00 session is just too late for me, I'm afraid (sigh).
I'd like to go, though, to one of the advanced sessions. My workload lightens up around the Winter Solstice, and maybe I can manage to visit around that time.
At a festival recently I was one of a group of five who were happily playing in a corner. Three hours later 400 people,everyone and their boots trying to show off their prowess. Sad to say mayhem ensued and what was a session filled with soaring improvisations and music for the joy of music turned to a mess. It wasnt a pretty sight nor sound. The music we played when we warmed up initially means so much, it came from the heart. Language and style barriers were broken down into something that was incredibly special. It was unfortunate that people were so enthusiastic that by sheer numbers and instruments it was destroyed. My point being, sometimes its best to sit and listen and participate by not playing at all.
Geoff - great minds think alike........ You should try out our Ciarán's translation of the Inferno of Dante Aligheiri .He won a couple of nice awards for it, and made an Honourary member of some tranlators' guidld.
Anyhooo - sit where you please Cathryn. We generall don't do inner circles - we will widen the circle to get everyone together where possible and if there are some who get left out on the fringes we will make a point of asking them to lead so they dont feel left out.
Cathryn I remember the Monday night Irish Centre sessions in Liverpool that Shea used to run as a member of the band Gava. Music wise they were amazing and the first place I played my bodhran out in public. But again they had that inner circle feel to them but I think there was such a large number of musicians who went with a huge variation in ability that this did seem to work quite well.
Dear Ms. Session Manners
Dear Ms. Session Manners
Greetings:
After attending a session a few times and always sitting in the back, I was suddenly (and completely unexpectedly, at least on my part) ushered into the inner circle a couple of hours into the session. My question is, how seriously should I take this? When I show up again, should I resume my place at the center of things or return to the back which frankly feels more natural, especially since I don't know all that many of their tunes yet?
This is a session that takes its etiquette very seriously. And as snide as I am about it all, I do enjoy making music there and wish not to make a presumptuous gaffe.
All input will be considered! I'd write to Miss Manners, but somehow, I think session etiquette is something she hasn't covered yet <gg>.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Just take the Bull by the horns and ask someone in the inner circle if it's ok. If you don't like that direct approach, then go back to the fringes and wait and see if they ask you again. If not that says something about your session - not sure I like it either.
Good luck
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by Donough
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
If I'm right you're talking about the Starry Session... right? If so, I haven't been there in ages, but from what I recall that's a rather large session and Shay Black runs it kind of like a Ceoltas style session where he calls for songs, dancers, invites soloist to play and that sort of thing. If you're sitting toward the back it isolates you from the tunes and whether you know all their tunes or not doesn't matter as much as just concentrating the instruments so there's more unity in the sound. I would suggest next time you can pretty much assume it's ok to be sitting with the other instrumentalists, especially since they invited you in, but just make sure you aren't taking a regular's seat.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
god, what a nughtmare. I'd be rubbish in such circumstances
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Yea... it's not exactly my cup of tea, which is why I never go. Shay's a lovely guy, but I prefer much smaller and less formal sessions.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
I've never come across an "inner circle" at a session.It sounds like one of Sax Rohmer's characters gaining entrance to the den of the Secret Seven.What a load of elitist crap.A session should be open to everyone.Democracy rules!
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by dafydd
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Actually, I try to work it the other way round. Where every one is welcome. Until they prove themselves beyond redemption. Then they get either frozen out or told to shut up
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
I like your approach, Michael, but I also don't like freezing people out... preferring to tell them what I think. It's their choice to learn or to take offence. I believe this is the honest way, but it has a very bad influence on my reputation. Not that I mind.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by Janek
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Your reputation aint worth shinola in this town! ;o)
In principle I disagree with the idea of an inner circle; sometimes it happens by accident rather than design, or accidentally on purpose.
Anyway what really gets my goat is the act of inviting someone to join the inner circle - "we think you're just about good enough to join in with the likes of us". While it is probably a nice thing for the person being invited, I would imagine it goes down like a lead balloon with those on the fringes.
I will reserve judgement on those people that run these kinds of sessions; to me it seems odd, elitist, patronising even. However it's my guess that this situation is borne of necessity.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
"Your reputation aint worth shinola in this town!"
Oh yes, mister? Now YOU try to come over and get into the inner, nay, even outer orbits of MY sessions... True was the saying of my great-grand-uncle, who repeated ad nauseam: there are two things inherently wrong in the world: generalizations and PA players!
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by Janek
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
If I come to the Adelaide tomorrow can I sit in the Inner Circle? Pretty Please?
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by Just a person
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
As to people who promote 'inner circle' sessions, I get a very similar impression - it's a bit like creating a fake aura of importance around the session. I wouldn't jump too fast to conclusions, maybe necessity there is - however, there are many ways to deal with most problems, and everyone chooses the way which is the closest to their personality.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by Janek
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
John, you can sit in the inner circle any time! You'll be on your own mind you....
Janek we are all planets orbiting your rising star; as for your great grand-uncle, he aint so great!
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
If its the Plough, if you get there late, there is no way to get a chair close to the front. so Get there early. I showed up with my pipes in the back and got asked to play a tune and even got asked to come back
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by I_Fel
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
"Get there early."
That's a sure way to get people's backs up too. Especially those lay out all their stuff and "set themselves up" before everyone else arrives.
Getting early is one thing but I like to "suss out" the situation, especially if it's a strange session, and I'll usually sit adjacent to the "Reserved for musicians" table until the others arrive.
One time, I actually sat at the table in a Glasgow session pub to wait as the surrounding tables were occupied. I'd every intention of moving to allow the regulars space when they arrived but the bar waitress actually informed me "Sorry, this table is reserved for musicians". I pointed to my instrument and explained that I had come for the session.
"You're not one of the regulars", I was informed. However, this particular session is and was advertised as "Open".
Now, the bar person probably didn't quite understand this concept but was obviously used to seeing the same "hard core" of musicians at the "Top table".
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by John J.
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
As our publican limits the numbers of musicians who can play at any given time (and you can imagine how popular THAT rule is), we are lucky to form a single semi-circle, let alone multiple layers of musicians. So we try to take turns when there are too many present, with the paid session leader calling the shots, and trying to make it fair.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
I try never to get there early. If you get there late, you can choose who to sit next to.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Thanks everyone for all of your valuable input.
The truth is, I really dislike the whole Inner Circle thing, the elitism, and the mean stuff that occasionally results. I've run into at least a handful of SF Bay Area musicians who avoid this session for those reasons, and at one point, I was sure I'd never darken its door again. Unfortunately for me, it's presently the only place where I can go to play music at that level.
I don't think I would ever set up a session to run in this way, certainly. That said, I think I understand how it ended up the way it is. This is a famous session, and no doubt it draws all kinds. And they're trying to keep it at a certain level. Ah well. It really is the only option at present.
After reading the posts and my own question, I realized that I had my answer. It's a fact that I don't know a lot of their tunes, though I am learning. Don't have much time to play these days, but I do have time to listen, e.g., in the car, So I record (after checking that nobody minded). I just don't know enough tunes to be all that comfortable sitting in the Inner Circle for the whole evening with my tape recorder up and my fiddle down. So I'll position myself near the IC, but not quite in it, but will enter if invited again.
It really was helpful to read all these comments. Thanks.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Al - A limit on the number of players? That sounds like hell. Imagine - sitting there, instrument in hand, when one of your favourite tunes comes up, and having to hold off because it's not 'your turn' to play! I couldn't do it. I'd explode - or just start playing involuntarily.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Cathryn, have you ever considered the SF Plough? The sessions are much smaller, i.e. no inner circle, and the one on the second to last Tuesday has been designated a beginner’s session and is deliberately slower. The other sessions are good for listening if you feel that they are too advanced for you, but everyone's welcome regardless of their level. We've had folks come in and sit with their instrument on their lap obviously not knowing our tunes, and when we ask them to play it's obvious that they're just getting started, but that doesn't matter and we'll play their tunes at their speed. It only becomes a problem if they try to dominate the session or start to audibly noodle on every tune. But this is rare and most folks are very nice and don't disrupt things unintentionally or otherwise.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Thanks for the kind invite, but I live in Danville! And I am a morning person. A 9:00 session is just too late for me, I'm afraid (sigh).
I'd like to go, though, to one of the advanced sessions. My workload lightens up around the Winter Solstice, and maybe I can manage to visit around that time.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
At a festival recently I was one of a group of five who were happily playing in a corner. Three hours later 400 people,everyone and their boots trying to show off their prowess. Sad to say mayhem ensued and what was a session filled with soaring improvisations and music for the joy of music turned to a mess. It wasnt a pretty sight nor sound. The music we played when we warmed up initially means so much, it came from the heart. Language and style barriers were broken down into something that was incredibly special. It was unfortunate that people were so enthusiastic that by sheer numbers and instruments it was destroyed. My point being, sometimes its best to sit and listen and participate by not playing at all.
# Posted on November 22nd 2006 by Joze
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
But that's festivals for you, Joze. It's very hard to get it just how you like it at festivals, I've found.
# Posted on November 22nd 2006 by Rudall the time
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Makes a session sound very much like Dante's Inferno with various concentric inner circles.
Quite apt really.
# Posted on November 22nd 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Geoff - great minds think alike........ You should try out our Ciarán's translation of the Inferno of Dante Aligheiri .He won a couple of nice awards for it, and made an Honourary member of some tranlators' guidld.
Anyhooo - sit where you please Cathryn. We generall don't do inner circles - we will widen the circle to get everyone together where possible and if there are some who get left out on the fringes we will make a point of asking them to lead so they dont feel left out.
Enjoy
# Posted on November 22nd 2006 by breandan
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Cathryn I remember the Monday night Irish Centre sessions in Liverpool that Shea used to run as a member of the band Gava. Music wise they were amazing and the first place I played my bodhran out in public. But again they had that inner circle feel to them but I think there was such a large number of musicians who went with a huge variation in ability that this did seem to work quite well.
# Posted on November 22nd 2006 by flossie
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Shay's band was called "Garva."
# Posted on November 22nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dear Ms. Session Manners
Breandan, I think we're very much on the same page about how a session should be run.
That's what I really want, but it's just not around right now (sigh).
# Posted on November 22nd 2006 by cathrynb