Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
Hi all- I've got another totally beginner question about my new (old) fiddle. I've done a searched but couldn't find anything on this.
Last week I got my new fiddle and took it straight down to get it set up. They took off the remaining old gut strings, added a new set, new bridge and a couple of new pegs. They left two of the original pegs and told me I may have to change them too if I had problems. the girl played it- it sounded wonderful and off I skipped, giddy as a school girl with my new treasure. I was so happy to find that fretless playing wasn't as difficult as I had envisioned (bowing on the other hand...). Anyway, the old pegs did slip (I probably didn't get the chalk on them as fast as I should have) and shortly I noticed the bridge leaning (I know a little lean is normal) but when I went to tune the G string today, the bridge flew off. Is this something that I can fix myself or do I have to skip (sadly trod) back to get it fixed. I'm not sure if the old pegs are really the problem or my novice tuning techniques are the culprit. I'm very gentle with the tuning I've done, moving everything very gingerly- I've mostly been playing flat so as to avoid any adjustments until I know what I'm doing (when left alone all the strings have been settling flat fairly evenly). How normal is this projectile bridge phenomenon?
I'm totally bummed and I've come to the session members because you suys always have great advice.
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
If the bridge feet are properlyand fitted, it will be less likely to fall over or fly off. The upper portion of the bridge may bend over slightly, due to the pressure and tension of the strings. But the back of the bridge, at the base, should always be perpendicular to the centreline of the belly and the feet should stand firmly on the belly, with no visible gap between them and the belly. If either of these are not the case, then you may need the feet refitting (or a new bridge).
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
put a little graphite (pencil lead) in the grooves where the strings fit...as the strings stretched, and you tuned, the string(s) got caught on the bridge and pulled it towards the neck, enabling the feet to slip out from under themselves..the graphite will keep everything well lubed...
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
Thanks for the advice! Blood, sweat and almost tears, I got it put back together again. It took five or six trys in the end- projectile problems on a few attempts (graphite seemed to have solved that). I think the bridge is fairly straight though am a little concerned that the footing isn't the best, but the soundpost doesn't appear to have budged through it all.
So did a very gingerly (and poorly) Maid Behind the Bar (A part only), and have put it to bed for the night. Phew!
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
If you take a well set-up violin and look at it sideways, you will notice the bridge standing nearly perpendicular to the top of the instrument...it might lean just a tad backward, toward the tailpiece. When you tune the strings, you most often raise the pitch, which means tightening, and the top edge of the bridge goes along with the strings. As times goes by, the bridge leans closer to the pegbox, and soon it will fall over (bass bridges will curl!)
I hold my violin with the neck facing me; thumbs on the top of the bridge, just under the strings; fingers on the feet of the bridge, but behind it, and push with my thumbs so the bridge is straight up and down with the very slightest lean back towards the tailpiece.
One lesson/demonstration from a luthier or teacher and you will understand perfectly what to do.
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
If it's just been set up and the pegs are slipping and the bridge flew off when you were tuning the G string, it sounds as if the fiddle hadn't been set up properly - it almost sounds from your description as if they changed the pegs and bridge etc while you were there - if so, how much time was spent shaping the bridge and pegs? You can't just put new ones on without doing work to make sure they fit. Perhaps you should get someone else to check the set-up. I've seen some really awful set-ups that have been done 'professionally'.
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
I took it into a reputable traditional music store for set up. I kind of skipped the part about the three day waiting period- truthfully I think it was worked on and cleaned up an hour or two before I picked it up. I can't say that the bridge ever had the slight backwards tilt, but I'm pretty certain I'm going to have to have the old pegs replaced- right now they're on the G and E strings and to me it would make sense not to have the pegs prone to major slippage on those strings, in particular?!? I'm not certain about a luthier in St. John's, I know the one everyone went to is sadly not among us anymore. Anyway, I'll ask one of the session fiddlers about places to get it looked at. I will definately stay and watch what is done this time.
Doh! I was hoping to keep my fiddle possession quiet from the session players, at least until I'd worked on it a while (years)- less the players fear that I'll pull it out at a session. They are being wonderfully patient putting up with my guitar
The bridge on my lovely old (1829) Mittenwald violin has been in place for more years than I can remember. It now has a fairly pronounced lean towards the pegbox but with no noticable detrimental effects.
Should I be thinking about replacing it before it finally keels over and maybe allows the soundpost to become loose and displaced?
How often do you need to replace a bridge? I'm sure it depends on playing time, but any comments?
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
I've never tried this with fine violin bridges, but I do this all the time with warped school double bass bridges:
1) fill the sink with warm water and soak the bridge overnight-even longer. Weight it down; it should not float on top. Then,
2) hang the bridge somewhere by a string, so it gets full contact with the surrounding air. Leave it for a day or two.
The bridge will absorb the water. The cells on the compacted side will stretch; the cells on the stretched side will relax, and the bridge will return to its original shape.
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
domnull..it depends..bridges don't really wear out, but if it is warped, something should be done.
Is the bridge just leaning forward, with the feet not in full contact with the belly, or are the feet in full contact with the belly and the bridge warped forward? If it is the latter case, you may want to have it straightened or replaced.
Another straightening technique would be to soak the bridge in a little warm water, and "press" it between 2 heavier objects like you would a leaf in kinderschool.
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
The back (tailpiece) side of the bridge should be vertical in relation to the front of the violin. The underside of the bridge feet should have been cut exactly at a right angle to the back of the bridge so that when it is in this upright position the feet are in full contact with the top. (Whish is what you want.) Bridges shouldn't be leaning. Just reduce the tension on all four strings (but not make them slack) and then holding the bridge with a hand on either side, ease it upright. In the normal way of things there should be no need to replace a bridge.
I agree with graphite in the bridge and nut grooves, I'm not sure about graphite on pegs. Either specific "violin peg paste" or plasticine are better, IMHO.
While we're on the subject screw-in fine tuners are for e strings only. (That's why the gap is too narrow for the heavier strings.) If you want fine tuners on all strings get a tailpiece with them integrated.
A properly fitted soundpost should not fall if all the strings are slackened, but it's a nuisance if it happens.
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
Remember that if you tune from the pegs you should check the bridge for lean (towards the fingerboard) about once a week. Even with graphite lubricated grooves in the bridge there will be a tendency for the bridge to be pulled towards the fingerboard. If the bridge is leaning then a very tiny gap will start to show between the feet and the belly on the tailpiece side. When that happens the bridge is no longer efficiently, or eventually effectively, transmitting vibrations to the instrument, and the tone will suffer. All you need to do (assuming the grooves are lubricated) is to hold the bridge gently but firmly with your finger and *ease* it into the upright position so that the feet are firmly in contact over their entire area.
Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
Hi all- I've got another totally beginner question about my new (old) fiddle. I've done a searched but couldn't find anything on this.
Last week I got my new fiddle and took it straight down to get it set up. They took off the remaining old gut strings, added a new set, new bridge and a couple of new pegs. They left two of the original pegs and told me I may have to change them too if I had problems. the girl played it- it sounded wonderful and off I skipped, giddy as a school girl with my new treasure. I was so happy to find that fretless playing wasn't as difficult as I had envisioned (bowing on the other hand...). Anyway, the old pegs did slip (I probably didn't get the chalk on them as fast as I should have) and shortly I noticed the bridge leaning (I know a little lean is normal) but when I went to tune the G string today, the bridge flew off. Is this something that I can fix myself or do I have to skip (sadly trod) back to get it fixed. I'm not sure if the old pegs are really the problem or my novice tuning techniques are the culprit. I'm very gentle with the tuning I've done, moving everything very gingerly- I've mostly been playing flat so as to avoid any adjustments until I know what I'm doing (when left alone all the strings have been settling flat fairly evenly). How normal is this projectile bridge phenomenon?
I'm totally bummed and I've come to the session members because you suys always have great advice.
Thanks very much in advance.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Cailin Rua
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
The worst problem you may run into is if the sound peg came loose. If that has happened you'll need professional help.
However, assuming the soundpost is ok follow these instructions:
http://www.stringworks.com/bridge_placement.htm
Your projectile bridge phenomenon isn't unheard of, but calm down, go a little slower and it shouldn't happen.
Final note: Never, ever loosen all the strings at the same time. The pressure from them helps hold the above mentioned sound post in place.
Ken
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by RogueFiddler
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
If the bridge feet are properlyand fitted, it will be less likely to fall over or fly off. The upper portion of the bridge may bend over slightly, due to the pressure and tension of the strings. But the back of the bridge, at the base, should always be perpendicular to the centreline of the belly and the feet should stand firmly on the belly, with no visible gap between them and the belly. If either of these are not the case, then you may need the feet refitting (or a new bridge).
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
put a little graphite (pencil lead) in the grooves where the strings fit...as the strings stretched, and you tuned, the string(s) got caught on the bridge and pulled it towards the neck, enabling the feet to slip out from under themselves..the graphite will keep everything well lubed...
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Sunnybear
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
Thanks for the advice! Blood, sweat and almost tears, I got it put back together again. It took five or six trys in the end- projectile problems on a few attempts (graphite seemed to have solved that). I think the bridge is fairly straight though am a little concerned that the footing isn't the best, but the soundpost doesn't appear to have budged through it all.
So did a very gingerly (and poorly) Maid Behind the Bar (A part only), and have put it to bed for the night. Phew!
Thank you!
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Cailin Rua
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
If you take a well set-up violin and look at it sideways, you will notice the bridge standing nearly perpendicular to the top of the instrument...it might lean just a tad backward, toward the tailpiece. When you tune the strings, you most often raise the pitch, which means tightening, and the top edge of the bridge goes along with the strings. As times goes by, the bridge leans closer to the pegbox, and soon it will fall over (bass bridges will curl!)
I hold my violin with the neck facing me; thumbs on the top of the bridge, just under the strings; fingers on the feet of the bridge, but behind it, and push with my thumbs so the bridge is straight up and down with the very slightest lean back towards the tailpiece.
One lesson/demonstration from a luthier or teacher and you will understand perfectly what to do.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
If it's just been set up and the pegs are slipping and the bridge flew off when you were tuning the G string, it sounds as if the fiddle hadn't been set up properly - it almost sounds from your description as if they changed the pegs and bridge etc while you were there - if so, how much time was spent shaping the bridge and pegs? You can't just put new ones on without doing work to make sure they fit. Perhaps you should get someone else to check the set-up. I've seen some really awful set-ups that have been done 'professionally'.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by c.g.
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
I took it into a reputable traditional music store for set up. I kind of skipped the part about the three day waiting period- truthfully I think it was worked on and cleaned up an hour or two before I picked it up. I can't say that the bridge ever had the slight backwards tilt, but I'm pretty certain I'm going to have to have the old pegs replaced- right now they're on the G and E strings and to me it would make sense not to have the pegs prone to major slippage on those strings, in particular?!? I'm not certain about a luthier in St. John's, I know the one everyone went to is sadly not among us anymore. Anyway, I'll ask one of the session fiddlers about places to get it looked at. I will definately stay and watch what is done this time.
Doh! I was hoping to keep my fiddle possession quiet from the session players, at least until I'd worked on it a while (years)- less the players fear that I'll pull it out at a session. They are being wonderfully patient putting up with my guitar
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Cailin Rua
New bridge - how often?
The bridge on my lovely old (1829) Mittenwald violin has been in place for more years than I can remember. It now has a fairly pronounced lean towards the pegbox but with no noticable detrimental effects.
Should I be thinking about replacing it before it finally keels over and maybe allows the soundpost to become loose and displaced?
How often do you need to replace a bridge? I'm sure it depends on playing time, but any comments?
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by domhnall.
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
I've never tried this with fine violin bridges, but I do this all the time with warped school double bass bridges:
1) fill the sink with warm water and soak the bridge overnight-even longer. Weight it down; it should not float on top. Then,
2) hang the bridge somewhere by a string, so it gets full contact with the surrounding air. Leave it for a day or two.
The bridge will absorb the water. The cells on the compacted side will stretch; the cells on the stretched side will relax, and the bridge will return to its original shape.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
domnull..it depends..bridges don't really wear out, but if it is warped, something should be done.
Is the bridge just leaning forward, with the feet not in full contact with the belly, or are the feet in full contact with the belly and the bridge warped forward? If it is the latter case, you may want to have it straightened or replaced.
Another straightening technique would be to soak the bridge in a little warm water, and "press" it between 2 heavier objects like you would a leaf in kinderschool.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Sunnybear
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
The back (tailpiece) side of the bridge should be vertical in relation to the front of the violin. The underside of the bridge feet should have been cut exactly at a right angle to the back of the bridge so that when it is in this upright position the feet are in full contact with the top. (Whish is what you want.) Bridges shouldn't be leaning. Just reduce the tension on all four strings (but not make them slack) and then holding the bridge with a hand on either side, ease it upright. In the normal way of things there should be no need to replace a bridge.
I agree with graphite in the bridge and nut grooves, I'm not sure about graphite on pegs. Either specific "violin peg paste" or plasticine are better, IMHO.
While we're on the subject screw-in fine tuners are for e strings only. (That's why the gap is too narrow for the heavier strings.) If you want fine tuners on all strings get a tailpiece with them integrated.
A properly fitted soundpost should not fall if all the strings are slackened, but it's a nuisance if it happens.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: Totally bummed and singing the Fiddle Bridge Blues
Remember that if you tune from the pegs you should check the bridge for lean (towards the fingerboard) about once a week. Even with graphite lubricated grooves in the bridge there will be a tendency for the bridge to be pulled towards the fingerboard. If the bridge is leaning then a very tiny gap will start to show between the feet and the belly on the tailpiece side. When that happens the bridge is no longer efficiently, or eventually effectively, transmitting vibrations to the instrument, and the tone will suffer. All you need to do (assuming the grooves are lubricated) is to hold the bridge gently but firmly with your finger and *ease* it into the upright position so that the feet are firmly in contact over their entire area.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Trevor Jennings