Howdy
I'm a highschooler who's doing a music project on the similarites and differences between Traditional Irish Music (jigs, reels, hornpipes, etc) and American Blues Music. I've found some info, but I'd like some first hand stuff. Do any ya'll play both Irish and Blues music? Thanks for any help
Joe Brew
I've played both styles of music pretty extensively, and I don't see much connection. The relationship of melody and harmony is inverted (blues is based on a fixed harmonic progression from which the melody is developed, ITM is based on a fairly fixed melody from which a harmony is developed), the scope of improvisation is entirely different (blues melodies can be improvised, Irish trad limits improvisation to ornamentation and harmonically similar variations), the harmonic progressions are almost entirely unrelated (blues relying heavily on I-IV-V progressions with a strong resolve through the V chord, ITM using more "modal" patterns), the melodies are structured in very different ways (blues using an A1A2B as its stereotype, ITM using AABB), the rhythms are obviously unrelated, and so forth. I'm hard pressed to find any similarities at all.
I'm not so sure things are quite so simple. First of all there has been no mention of the importance of the blues scale. This is basically a pentatonic minor scale I - bIII - IV - V - bVII. Many Irish trad tunes use gapped scales such as this, and pentatonic scales are particularly common. In blues, that bIII often glides into an unflattened major 3rd so that the melody characteristically wavers between major and minor. Irish fiddle players also do this, especially in the Clare style; if a fiddler decides to sharpen the 3rd in a dorian tune, they are making it mixolydian and "bluesifying" it through ambiguity. Similarly, a blues singer/guitarist or whatever will often glide from a VI up to that bVIII. This also happens in trad - Martin Hayes' playing is a perfect example. The flattened 7th itself occurs in mixolydian/aeolian/dorian tunes in trad, and is one of the most obvious features that sets trad - and blues - apart from classical music harmonically.
As far as harmonic similarities are concerned, blues is like jazz in that it is possible to add extensions onto chords so that you get dominant 7ths & 9ths etc. This is also possible with trad music because of its modal quality.
You could probably also find similarities historically, but then, you'll find that there are parallel similarities with loads of other genres.
Perhaps the similarities end there. There are many more differences than similarities...
Clare style music (and I think more East Clare than West Clare) has often been referred to as the most "bluesy" of Irish music. Dunno if that helps you much, I'm not much for the blues, myself.
Perhaps it would be worth listening to some North American folk music (aside form the Blues - Apallachian, Cajun, Bluegrass, Texas Swing etc.), much of which combines elements of Irish/Scots music and Black music. Comparing this with the Blues and with Irish music might help highlight some of the differences and similarities.
I've played both Irish trad and pre-war acoustic blues for almost 30 years. There are very definite historical links and they are very important, but the historical links are more obvious and significant than the musical ones.
There was a tremendous amount of interaction b/w Irish immigrant and African-American musicians in the period b/w around 1840 and 1880. There are close connections between Appalachian clogging and Irish step-dance, as there are between Irish step-dance and African-American flatfoot dances. The pre-Civil War painters George Caleb Bingham (on the Missouri river) and William Sidney Mount (in rural Long Island) both painted scenes of music and dancing which combine Irish and African elements.
The strongest and most direct link b/w these two ethnic traditions is in the genre of minstrelsy. These were troupes of Caucasian musicians, many of Irish or Scots-Irish background, who beginning around 1840 blacked-up their faces, wore exaggerated imitations of southern Black clothing, and presented a multi-media performance genre of comedy, storytelling, dance, and characteristic music, delivered with parodic intent in exaggerations of southern Black dialect. Obviously this was a racist (and hence, in the modern period, under-studied) genre, but it was also a vital link between Irish and African-American dance music and song. Many of the melodies played were of Irish derivation or style, but the instrumentation (fiddle, bones, tambourine, sometimes guitar or accordion) and the associated dance styles were rooted in African-American traditions. Both Joel Walker Sweeney and Daniel Decatur Emmett, early architects of black-faced minstrelsy, were of Irish descent--1st generation I believe. Minstrelsy is a very powerful influence upon later African American dance styles like jazz and tap, and on the urban genres of vaudeville, which in turn lead to Tin Pan Alley and much Broadway dance and music. After the Civil War, a number of African-American musicians also got in on the minstrelsy phenomenon, "blacking up" themselves. The genre fell out of favor in the US by around 1910 (though many vaudevillians themselves started out in minstrel shows) but remained popular in Britain, Ireland, and South Africa well into the 1930s. It's thought that the banjo (5-string initially) was first introduced into Irish traditional music by touring minstrel shows.
In addition, there was a great deal of cultural and musical interaction b/w African-American and Irish emigrant persons in New York's slum neighborhoods before and after the Civil War--Scorsese's "Gangs of New York" alludes to this. It's another area of American musical history which has not been explored in depth, but it's definitely important.
Of course, the presence of 1920s jazz musicians, with their strong roots in African-American styles, on Golden Age recordings by Coleman, Killoran, and Morrison is another connection.
I would submit that the historical connections b/w the two traditions are stronger than analyzable musical connections. But they're there.
Irish vs. Blues Music
Irish vs. Blues Music
Howdy
I'm a highschooler who's doing a music project on the similarites and differences between Traditional Irish Music (jigs, reels, hornpipes, etc) and American Blues Music. I've found some info, but I'd like some first hand stuff. Do any ya'll play both Irish and Blues music? Thanks for any help
Joe Brew
# Posted on December 18th 2002 by joebrew
Re: Irish vs. Blues Music
I've played both styles of music pretty extensively, and I don't see much connection. The relationship of melody and harmony is inverted (blues is based on a fixed harmonic progression from which the melody is developed, ITM is based on a fairly fixed melody from which a harmony is developed), the scope of improvisation is entirely different (blues melodies can be improvised, Irish trad limits improvisation to ornamentation and harmonically similar variations), the harmonic progressions are almost entirely unrelated (blues relying heavily on I-IV-V progressions with a strong resolve through the V chord, ITM using more "modal" patterns), the melodies are structured in very different ways (blues using an A1A2B as its stereotype, ITM using AABB), the rhythms are obviously unrelated, and so forth. I'm hard pressed to find any similarities at all.
# Posted on December 18th 2002 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Irish vs. Blues Music
I'm not so sure things are quite so simple. First of all there has been no mention of the importance of the blues scale. This is basically a pentatonic minor scale I - bIII - IV - V - bVII. Many Irish trad tunes use gapped scales such as this, and pentatonic scales are particularly common. In blues, that bIII often glides into an unflattened major 3rd so that the melody characteristically wavers between major and minor. Irish fiddle players also do this, especially in the Clare style; if a fiddler decides to sharpen the 3rd in a dorian tune, they are making it mixolydian and "bluesifying" it through ambiguity. Similarly, a blues singer/guitarist or whatever will often glide from a VI up to that bVIII. This also happens in trad - Martin Hayes' playing is a perfect example. The flattened 7th itself occurs in mixolydian/aeolian/dorian tunes in trad, and is one of the most obvious features that sets trad - and blues - apart from classical music harmonically.
As far as harmonic similarities are concerned, blues is like jazz in that it is possible to add extensions onto chords so that you get dominant 7ths & 9ths etc. This is also possible with trad music because of its modal quality.
You could probably also find similarities historically, but then, you'll find that there are parallel similarities with loads of other genres.
Perhaps the similarities end there. There are many more differences than similarities...
# Posted on December 18th 2002 by Dr. Dow
Re: Irish vs. Blues Music
Clare style music (and I think more East Clare than West Clare) has often been referred to as the most "bluesy" of Irish music. Dunno if that helps you much, I'm not much for the blues, myself.
Zina
# Posted on December 19th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Irish vs. Blues Music
Perhaps it would be worth listening to some North American folk music (aside form the Blues - Apallachian, Cajun, Bluegrass, Texas Swing etc.), much of which combines elements of Irish/Scots music and Black music. Comparing this with the Blues and with Irish music might help highlight some of the differences and similarities.
# Posted on December 22nd 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Irish vs. Blues Music
I've played both Irish trad and pre-war acoustic blues for almost 30 years. There are very definite historical links and they are very important, but the historical links are more obvious and significant than the musical ones.
There was a tremendous amount of interaction b/w Irish immigrant and African-American musicians in the period b/w around 1840 and 1880. There are close connections between Appalachian clogging and Irish step-dance, as there are between Irish step-dance and African-American flatfoot dances. The pre-Civil War painters George Caleb Bingham (on the Missouri river) and William Sidney Mount (in rural Long Island) both painted scenes of music and dancing which combine Irish and African elements.
The strongest and most direct link b/w these two ethnic traditions is in the genre of minstrelsy. These were troupes of Caucasian musicians, many of Irish or Scots-Irish background, who beginning around 1840 blacked-up their faces, wore exaggerated imitations of southern Black clothing, and presented a multi-media performance genre of comedy, storytelling, dance, and characteristic music, delivered with parodic intent in exaggerations of southern Black dialect. Obviously this was a racist (and hence, in the modern period, under-studied) genre, but it was also a vital link between Irish and African-American dance music and song. Many of the melodies played were of Irish derivation or style, but the instrumentation (fiddle, bones, tambourine, sometimes guitar or accordion) and the associated dance styles were rooted in African-American traditions. Both Joel Walker Sweeney and Daniel Decatur Emmett, early architects of black-faced minstrelsy, were of Irish descent--1st generation I believe. Minstrelsy is a very powerful influence upon later African American dance styles like jazz and tap, and on the urban genres of vaudeville, which in turn lead to Tin Pan Alley and much Broadway dance and music. After the Civil War, a number of African-American musicians also got in on the minstrelsy phenomenon, "blacking up" themselves. The genre fell out of favor in the US by around 1910 (though many vaudevillians themselves started out in minstrel shows) but remained popular in Britain, Ireland, and South Africa well into the 1930s. It's thought that the banjo (5-string initially) was first introduced into Irish traditional music by touring minstrel shows.
In addition, there was a great deal of cultural and musical interaction b/w African-American and Irish emigrant persons in New York's slum neighborhoods before and after the Civil War--Scorsese's "Gangs of New York" alludes to this. It's another area of American musical history which has not been explored in depth, but it's definitely important.
Of course, the presence of 1920s jazz musicians, with their strong roots in African-American styles, on Golden Age recordings by Coleman, Killoran, and Morrison is another connection.
I would submit that the historical connections b/w the two traditions are stronger than analyzable musical connections. But they're there.
cjs
# Posted on December 22nd 2002 by coyotebanjo
Re: Irish vs. Blues Music
Hey I think you just wrote Joe's paper for him!!!
# Posted on December 22nd 2002 by ANNY
Re: Irish vs. Blues Music
I think so, too! Absolutely fascinating stuff, coyotebanjo!
# Posted on December 22nd 2002 by Andee