Was just looking up the tune Inisheer when I came across this hilarious but at the same time disturbing question.
'Can anyone confirm whether or not this tune is traditional Irish - I teach a young flute band who played this at the Ulster Fleadh but one of the judges quiried if it was traditional....'
How sad is that? The composer Thomas Walsh is still alive so by some stupid Comhaltas rules it probably would be ruled out. But really when are these people gonna realise that traditional Irish music is an evolving tradition therefore you can't put a date on whether a tune is traditional or not. If a tune has entered the tradition and is played as much and respected as much as 'Inisheer' then it is traditional, similarly the compositions of Paddy Fahey (also living) are so respected and played that they are part of the tradition and therefore traditional.
Anyone who disagrees with this theory better give me a firm date as to when Irish traditional tunes come from. If it is anything before the 20th Century then all those great tunes by Paddy Fahey, Ed Reavy, Charlie Lennon, Liz Carroll etc., are not traditional so we should really all stop playing them at 'traditional' Irish sessions, festivals, competitions, gigs etc!
This is much like a story a well known guitarist told me. Once someone from Comhaltas came up to him after a gig and angrily told him the chords he was using weren't 'traditional'. He replied, 'Ok give me a date and I won't play any music before that time!'
It's an evolving tradition people, great tunes are always added to it, sure some of the old piping tunes are still the best, but Paddy Fahey and Ed Reavy tunes in particular are very much the equal of these great old piping tunes and show the logical progression of melody and harmony in traditional Irish music.
My initial reaction to this oft posted question is "who cares?". and why should you care about someone who does care?
But it's more complicated than that. It's about respect. Respect for the wealth (good word that, specifically implies what it's worth) of what's gone before. The best of the twentieth century innovations in this music put a very high value on the precedent and incorporate all this within their "avant garde"
Some may view the concept of the avent garde as an anathema to traditional art forms. But I believe it is crucial to their longevity. With the proviso, of course, that what has gone before is respected and incorporated, and not merely discarded as irrelevant, or worse, not learned in the first place through sheer laziness
Or Pete St John - although the Fields of Athenry has to one of the most popular Irish tunes ever. Most people who've been around for a while know what's trad and what isn't and it's got nothing to do with dates! You'll never hear anyone (Comhaltas or otherwise) complain about a Paddy Fahy tune, a Charlie Lennon tune, a Tommy Peoples tune ......... etc, etc.
Bannerman you mustn't have read the quote about the Comhaltas person asking if Inisheer was traditional, thus implying that because it is a relatively recent composition it mightn't be regarded as traditional. So that contradicts what you said. there ARE some morons out there who have been around for a while and don't know what's trad & what isn't!
As for Bill Whelan, I'm not much of a Riverdance fan, however I think Bill Whelan would be the first person to say Riverdance is not traditional Irish music. I've never heard one bit of Riverdance played in a session or played by another performing trad musician aside from as part of the show. It is in essence music for contemporary Irish dance. So it doesn't really count in this argument.
I was just beefing about the ignorance of those who question the validity of a commonly played and recorded modern tune like Inisheer as being traditional irish music.
As for the whole thing about the avant garde, I've always hated that term because it gives me images of pretentious people who think that strangling a cat whilst playing the tuba is innovative, but thank you for providing that link explaining fully what avant-garde really means, it's not such a bad term after all!
Frisbee, we could go on all day on this one as it's not just the tune but the way it's played that can often determine if it's traditional or not. Inisheer is a lovely Irish tune that we regularly play in our sessions but I definitely wouldn't play it in a Fleadh air competition. I'm not an expert on these matters but I think it's the fact that they have definite time signatures (Boolavogue, Spancil Hill, Cliffs of Dooneen, etc also come into this category) that militates against such tunes. On the other hand a musician can take such a tune and make it into an authentic slow air such as Noel Hill did on his recent CD with Boolavogue and also the Mountains of Pomeroy.
This can sometimes be a complex question and simplistic reasoning such as "the tune's only 3 years old" or "it was written by an Australian" or "never gets played at sessions" is totally irrelevant!
I think it's best if competitors meet organisations like Comhaltas on the latter's own ground when selecting tunes to play and methods of playing in their competitions. There are any number of "kosher" tunes, in this or that time signature, that everyone involved knows without doubt to be trad; I assume C's main job is to encourage these to be forked over and played with some frequency, and to teach / judge / maintain the particular playing techniques that have beyond doubt established ITM as a coherent art form.
As for "Inisheer", it strikes me as a very pretty tune but not as a very strong one: though I know it's written by a known composer, I suspect it's still a work in progress, as it were, and people may alter it in time to come, as it passes through the mangle of tradition. Maybe some Comhaltas person has had similar thoughts. But a big surprise to me was that it was Irish - on first hearing it, I automatically took it to be Scottish!
But is it traditional?
But is it traditional?
Was just looking up the tune Inisheer when I came across this hilarious but at the same time disturbing question.
'Can anyone confirm whether or not this tune is traditional Irish - I teach a young flute band who played this at the Ulster Fleadh but one of the judges quiried if it was traditional....'
How sad is that? The composer Thomas Walsh is still alive so by some stupid Comhaltas rules it probably would be ruled out. But really when are these people gonna realise that traditional Irish music is an evolving tradition therefore you can't put a date on whether a tune is traditional or not. If a tune has entered the tradition and is played as much and respected as much as 'Inisheer' then it is traditional, similarly the compositions of Paddy Fahey (also living) are so respected and played that they are part of the tradition and therefore traditional.
Anyone who disagrees with this theory better give me a firm date as to when Irish traditional tunes come from. If it is anything before the 20th Century then all those great tunes by Paddy Fahey, Ed Reavy, Charlie Lennon, Liz Carroll etc., are not traditional so we should really all stop playing them at 'traditional' Irish sessions, festivals, competitions, gigs etc!
This is much like a story a well known guitarist told me. Once someone from Comhaltas came up to him after a gig and angrily told him the chords he was using weren't 'traditional'. He replied, 'Ok give me a date and I won't play any music before that time!'
It's an evolving tradition people, great tunes are always added to it, sure some of the old piping tunes are still the best, but Paddy Fahey and Ed Reavy tunes in particular are very much the equal of these great old piping tunes and show the logical progression of melody and harmony in traditional Irish music.
Discuss!
DaithÃ
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by fnarr
Re: But is it traditional?
My initial reaction to this oft posted question is "who cares?". and why should you care about someone who does care?
But it's more complicated than that. It's about respect. Respect for the wealth (good word that, specifically implies what it's worth) of what's gone before. The best of the twentieth century innovations in this music put a very high value on the precedent and incorporate all this within their "avant garde"
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=avant-garde
Some may view the concept of the avent garde as an anathema to traditional art forms. But I believe it is crucial to their longevity. With the proviso, of course, that what has gone before is respected and incorporated, and not merely discarded as irrelevant, or worse, not learned in the first place through sheer laziness
(I can't speek for the 21st century yet)
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: But is it traditional?
How many Comhaltas members does it take to change a lightbulb?
.
..
...
What do you mean "change"??
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by tradshark
Re: But is it traditional?
Bill Whelan is still alive, but would you really want someone passing off some Riverdance tunes as traditional? I mean, there are limits...
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by Farr
Re: But is it traditional?
Or Pete St John - although the Fields of Athenry has to one of the most popular Irish tunes ever. Most people who've been around for a while know what's trad and what isn't and it's got nothing to do with dates! You'll never hear anyone (Comhaltas or otherwise) complain about a Paddy Fahy tune, a Charlie Lennon tune, a Tommy Peoples tune ......... etc, etc.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by Bannerman
Re: But is it traditional?
I love Charlie Lennon tunes.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by BE
Re: But is it traditional?
Bannerman you mustn't have read the quote about the Comhaltas person asking if Inisheer was traditional, thus implying that because it is a relatively recent composition it mightn't be regarded as traditional. So that contradicts what you said. there ARE some morons out there who have been around for a while and don't know what's trad & what isn't!
As for Bill Whelan, I'm not much of a Riverdance fan, however I think Bill Whelan would be the first person to say Riverdance is not traditional Irish music. I've never heard one bit of Riverdance played in a session or played by another performing trad musician aside from as part of the show. It is in essence music for contemporary Irish dance. So it doesn't really count in this argument.
I was just beefing about the ignorance of those who question the validity of a commonly played and recorded modern tune like Inisheer as being traditional irish music.
As for the whole thing about the avant garde, I've always hated that term because it gives me images of pretentious people who think that strangling a cat whilst playing the tuba is innovative, but thank you for providing that link explaining fully what avant-garde really means, it's not such a bad term after all!
# Posted on October 3rd 2006 by fnarr
Re: But is it traditional?
Frisbee, we could go on all day on this one as it's not just the tune but the way it's played that can often determine if it's traditional or not. Inisheer is a lovely Irish tune that we regularly play in our sessions but I definitely wouldn't play it in a Fleadh air competition. I'm not an expert on these matters but I think it's the fact that they have definite time signatures (Boolavogue, Spancil Hill, Cliffs of Dooneen, etc also come into this category) that militates against such tunes. On the other hand a musician can take such a tune and make it into an authentic slow air such as Noel Hill did on his recent CD with Boolavogue and also the Mountains of Pomeroy.
This can sometimes be a complex question and simplistic reasoning such as "the tune's only 3 years old" or "it was written by an Australian" or "never gets played at sessions" is totally irrelevant!
# Posted on October 3rd 2006 by Bannerman
Re: But is it traditional?
I think it's best if competitors meet organisations like Comhaltas on the latter's own ground when selecting tunes to play and methods of playing in their competitions. There are any number of "kosher" tunes, in this or that time signature, that everyone involved knows without doubt to be trad; I assume C's main job is to encourage these to be forked over and played with some frequency, and to teach / judge / maintain the particular playing techniques that have beyond doubt established ITM as a coherent art form.
As for "Inisheer", it strikes me as a very pretty tune but not as a very strong one: though I know it's written by a known composer, I suspect it's still a work in progress, as it were, and people may alter it in time to come, as it passes through the mangle of tradition. Maybe some Comhaltas person has had similar thoughts. But a big surprise to me was that it was Irish - on first hearing it, I automatically took it to be Scottish!
# Posted on October 3rd 2006 by nicholas