I've played steel strings for a long time, but after reading all the endorsements here for Evah Pirazzi strings, I sold one of my kidneys and bought a set. This is my first real experience with synthetic strings. I put them on a few hours ago and let them settle in before playing.
They have a nice warm voice, etc., but I've noticed an annoying phenomenon. I tend to bow near the end of the fingerboard and when I do this with the new strings, the note often wants to choke down, sputter and sound about a half step flat. With a little experimenting, I realized that the location of the nasty spot depends on where the string is fingered. In fact, it's at the second octave node above the note fingered, i.e., three-quarters of the way up from the fingered note. Apparently, bowing there is perturbing the node just enough to shift it slightly, thereby changing the pitch. Intuitively, it seems to result from the relative slackness of synthetic strings.
Anybody else noticed this with synthetic strings? Is it common knowledge to everybody except me? I can avoid it by playng closer to the bridge, but that loses some of the warmth of the tone. Besides, when I finger a note with the pinky, it pushes the "nasty spot" (that's a copyrighted technical term) closer to the bridge. Also, if I bow very lightly, it doesn't happen so much.
Maybe somebody better educated will correct me, but I don't think it's unique to synthetic strings. It's just the nature of the beast.
I once saw a TV program about bowed instruments that showed, in super slow motion, how the string vibrates both above and below where the bow crosses the string. Getting those two vibrations to agree with each other is tricky, but will produce the best tone. The ideal spot for the bow would change depending on where your finger is placed, but you can't jitter the bow around for each different note, so you have to compromise.
That's one reason why beginner fiddlers screech so much--they haven't figured out where the sweet spot (or, more practically, the semi-sweet spot) is, to get the best agreement between those two sets of vibrations.
Although I suppose that a less than perfect fingerboard could also contribute to the problem--does yours have a smooth surface, or is it a bit wavy?
Yep, synth core strings seem spongier to me than steel-core strings, especially when bowing down over the fingerboard. Perhaps another way to think of this is that the semi-sweet (bittersweet? ) spot is broader on steel strings.
I use Evah Pirazzis (synth), and came to them from Helicores (steel), and noticed this difference.
In the long run, this "problem" helped me learn a lot about bowing and my particular fiddle. As mickray says, I learned to keep the bow on that narrower semisweet spot, and also to modify my bow speed and pressure when I wanted to play off that semisweet spot for a different tone. A lighter touch and a bit more bow speed gives me a good tone over the fingerboard (maybe sacrificing a little volume) when I want that dark, chamois sound (great for playing duets with a flute). The closer I move toward the bridge, the more I can lean the hair into the strings and still get a strong, clean note (good for cutting through in a big nosiy session), almost regardless of bow speed.
My two fiddles have very different sounds--one woody and dark, the other brassy and brighter, so the semisweet spots and tonal ranges are different from one fiddle to the next.
I guess what I'm hinting at here is that the high-quality synth strings allow for a broader range of tonal colors than steel strings, at least in my experience, and once you figure out how to get them out of your bow hand and fiddle.
whoosis--I think Helicores are perlon, not steel. I remember the violin shop guy opening the package, and letting one of them uncoil like a wet noodle. I had never seen anything like it, having used Prim and Jarger up to that point.
Actually, Helicores have a stranded steel core, making them more supple than your standard solid steel core strings like Jargar or Prim. Analogues to Helicore are Spirocore and Superflexible (also called Ropecore), which are both from Thomastik.
"A lighter touch and a bit more bow speed gives me a good tone over the fingerboard (maybe sacrificing a little volume)..."
Now that you mention it, I think I was beginning to notice that. So, maybe I was spoiled by steel core strings and now I have to play smarter.
I haven't noticed this phenomenon at all with the hard strings. I've always found my favorite tone right at the end of the fingerboard with no intonation problems. Trying to think about it from a physics point of view, it makes some sense that a more slack string would be more prone to this. In my very brief experience, it seems that the synth strings tolerate playing closer to the bridge without losing sweetness.
I hadn't anticipated making so much change to my feeble technique, but having made the investment, I intend to give 'em a fair trial.
Mickray: Helicore strings have "Multi-Strand twisted steel core" according to www.daddariobowed.com.
They have a feel that is somewhere in between the solid core strings like Prim and the synthetic core strings like Evah Pirazzi.
I used Helicores for a long time and was not dissatisfied. But I began to feel that they were limited, and maybe I was missing something.
Around that time a player I really respect sang the praises of Zyex string (also made by D'Addario) and more or less dared me to try them. I did, and have not looked back They have a synthetic core. They also break in pretty quickly, compared to some synthetics (so I'm told. They're the only synth. strings I have used)
I can't say I noticed the problem that started this thread. I switched to Zyex, and while I could feel the difference it was pretty much love at first sight. I could even hear the violins playing. Oh, wait. That was me.
As others have pointed out, the synth. core strings just have more to say than the steel core strings.
But it's a personal choice.
Oops. How embarrassing. Thanks for correcting me, on perlon vs. stranded steel cores. (Note to self: If you're not sure, look it up before you start blathering, you eejit!)
Bob, sounds like you figured it out. You can definitely over-push strings.
I have a tendency to play hard, coupled with a preference for a "clean" sound. My fiddle has a nice voice and I like the way Heliocore's sound on it. I tried a variety of strings and came back to them. Probably the best other string I tried was the Evah's, however. They just didn't seem to last long enough for me.
Jode, I think if I played with an accordion much, as you do, I would stick with Helicores too. You can really lean on them without distorting the tone, and they last forever. Excellent strings, and just the ticket for getting good volume and a clear tone out of most fiddles. Prims are another good choice for this scenario.
Well, now it occurs to me that maybe I’ve been relying too much on bow pressure instead of accurate placement when I go to play two strings together. The steel-core strings let me get away with it, but the synthetics don’t want to be pushed that hard, except in case of emergency. Another reason to work on my basic technique. Maybe I’ll be a better person for it.
Hmm Will, you might be on to something there. I suppose if I did more solo playing, I might move in a different direction. And Bob, consider your bow and its tension too. When one pushes harder, one tends to keep a taughter bow.
Bob, a tip I picked up from Kevin Burke might help here too. He cautioned not to lean harder when playing two strings together, but rather to back off a bit or at least keep it steady. With both strings vibrating, you'll actually get a slight increase in volume anyway, without any extra pressure on the bow (and Kevin demonstrated this clear as a bell). We're so used to hearing doublestops as louder that our bow hands automatically respond by leaning on the stick. I was certainly guilty of just that, and the advice went a long way toward improving my tone. In fact, I've found it works in most cases where my tone fuzzes out or gets harsh--go for a lighter touch. That and a little faster bow speed usually sweetens the tone and helps the fiddle project.
I think the whole concept of "leaning" on your strings is the wrong way to go. There is an optimum pressure for the best tone, and your dynamics comes from the speed of the bow,
I remember when I'd been playing for not that long and a good friend bought me my first tomastic dominants as a present. I remember thinking that I must be not tuning them up properly, they felt so baggy and just died so easilly. But it didn't take long to realise I was just leaning on them.
Depends on how much you use dynamics in your playing. Bow speed can only do so much. Of course, dynamics aren't a necessary piece of playing this music. But some people do use it to good advantage--Cait Reed and Brendan Bulger come to mind. And Kevin Burke likes to play polkas with a good bit of lean, then releasing the string to get more pop on accented notes. To me, pow pressure is just another tool for expression and like anything else, can be overdone.
I agree, but this style of extra bow pressure is used percussively and in very short bursts. And it actually does kill the tone in a way. It's part of that "putting a bit of grit" into your playing, that people talk about.
And this, of course, links to the thread the other week about getting a decent bow that's not too light.
Just to be clear, I am not espousing the application of lots of pressure. I agree that it can cause more problems. But it is a fact of life for me that I do dig in a bit too much when I cannot hear myself. It could be a gig, or it could be a loud session. Otherwise, I favour a solid bow.
Just outta badness, Michael, wouldn't a little extra pressure on a tougher string equate to less pressure on a baggy string? It may be bad logic, but I think that is why I like the Hellas. I can get away with a little more pressure and still get a good tone out of the fiddle (or a tone with which I am happy).
Yes, I think that's right Jode. The parameters of what you can get away with are wider. That doesn't mean, however, that you can get a wider tonal range in the long run with the better strings. It's just practice
By the way, I did recently purchase a set of Dominants. Back when I was doing my string experiments, that is where I started. I ended up liking the Hellas the best, but never went back to where I started.
Don't forget those two other extremely important factors in the tone-production equation - the player and bow. A cheap (in the sense of "rubbish") bow will deaden and kill the tone very effectively, and certainly won't help you to get the best out of good strings. There's not a lot you can do about this situation except to get a good bow. If you're a beginner you're not really in an effective position to make a good choice - that goes with being a beginner, no matter what the activity - so the best thing is to rely on the judgment of an experienced player/teacher.
A week ago I decided the Zyex's on my old German fiddle were due for replacement, so I got a set of Thomastik's synthetic core Vision Titanium strings. (btw, I think the "Titanium" word is marketing-speak, because the G and D are silver-wound and the A is aluminium-wound. The E is solid steel.) I don't think I'll look back, even to Obligatos or Zyex. The Visions were stable within an hour of installation; and in a 3-hour session last night their tuning remained stable. They are significantly more powerful than Zyex and have a richer, more complex tone. The E is particularly powerful and clear. Unlike some "loud" strings, the Visions can be played very softly without losing quality and depth of tone (this is where a good bow helps, anyway). And as others have pointed out, you can bow good synthetics closer to the bridge than you can with steel cores.
In my years as a cellist I've become very used to the "spongy tone" spot near the end of the finger-board when playing in the first position. In orchestral playing you're sometimes required to play softly in this region to get a mysterious quiet effect (technically, it's called playing "sul tasto") and you very soon learn to use a gentler bowing technique in this region so as not to destroy the tone or intonation. Exactly the same applies to the violin and viola. In my cello and fiddle playing my bow is generally about halfway between the end of the fingerboard and the bridge - the sweet spot - again when playing in the first postion. On the cello if I'm playing in a high position (7 and above) as cellists often do then I would automatically move my bow close to the bridge so as to maintain the tone. The closer you play to the bridge then the more bow pressure you have to apply; the trick is to be able to do this with causing the string to squawk or screech. Woodshedding is the answer.
From the technical point of view it is interesting to watch a violinist playing a concerto live. These players are in the business of projecting their tone over the orchestra to the back of a large concert hall, so they know how to do it. Granted, they've got very good instruments and bows, but so will most of the string players in a professional orchestra, so it's not just the equipment. The soloist, particularly in the loud bits, will bow very close to the bridge so as to maximise the volume without ruining the tonal quality. But then, these guys know all about woodshedding big time
I'm a barely competent multi-instrumentalist. In the 1980s I was playing accordion in a ceili band. I had a fiddle, with steel strings, but the band wouldn't let me play it as the real fiddle player was so much better than me. He also had a very beautiful and expensive fiddle, which sounded lovely in his hands. He also had strings which he was too embarrassed to tell me how much they cost.
I had a go on his fiddle one day, and I had exactly the phenomenon you describe, so much so that I couldn't play the lovely fiddle.
Since then I've stopped and started playing the fiddle a few times, but recently I've been doing more fiddling, and I’ve got a bit better. Sometimes people even stay in the same room when I’m playing. I've been using Dominant strings for years, but the other I decided to try a new kind, Warchal Karneols.
I was intrigued to find I had the old semi-tone wobble/choking phenomenon straight away, on the A and D strings. I've been playing the strings for a few days now, and it happens less and less often. At this early stage I'd say these strings require more care in playing than the Dominants, but they have a very nice and flexible sound (by my standards), they are responsive, the G is better than the Dominant one, and didn't wobble for me even when it was brand new. I think in the hands of more competent players than me they might sound fantastic. Worth checking out maybe the next time you need new strings. I've not used Evah Thingies, but I've heard they don't last long.
The trick to keeping people in the same room while you play is to lock the doors before you start.
I just replaced the cheap steel strings on my cheap'n'nasty "camping fiddle" with some Helicores, prior to going camping in the delightful rain and high winds we've been promised, and I immediately got the wobbling phenomenon on the A and D strings. Although it otherwise sounds better, I think the moral is that a cheap'n'nasty fiddle sometimes requires cheap'n'nasty strings.
Thanks, folks! So much good information, so little grey matter to process it all…
I’m glad to learn that the note-choking thing is not something wrong with my fiddle, but now I have to tighten up my technique a bit. I hadn’t expected that. I did notice one immediate benefit of the change to looser strings – my crans sound better.
Some theoretical and practical background and justification for the "sweet spot" on the fiddle.
On the piano, in its middle range, the hammer is arranged to strike the string at a point somewhere between 1/7 and 1/9 of the string length from the bridge. This point is the "sweet spot" because over the centuries of development of keyboard instruments it has been found in practice to produce the tone and response that is most attractive to the player and the listener.
The same distance along the fiddle string from the bridge, 1/7 to 1/9 of the string's vibrating length, is also the fiddle's "sweet spot" for bowing. On one of my fiddles, which has a 330 mm string length, this is between 47 and 36 mm from the bridge. On my cello (689 mm string length) the sweet spot is between 98 and 76 mm from the bridge.
Bearing in mind that no two fiddles are exactly the same, you may be able to relate the sweet spot to the position of the top of the f-holes; on my instruments it is roughly in that area, but it does vary between the instruments. What is inadvisable - and I've heard this said - is to tell the pupil to bow halfway between the bridge and the end of the fingerboard. Although this works for many fiddles it can lead to poor tonal results if it is applied by the pupil to a fiddle with a shorter fingerboard. Fingerboards do vary in length.
Now for the theoretical justification. If you go up a string playing the harmonics you get the sequence,
1 open string
2 octave
3 octave + a fifth
4 two octaves
5 two octaves + a major third
6 two octaves + a fifth
7 two octaves + a very flat seventh that's not in any diatonic scale, so not very attractive
8 three octaves
9 three octaves + a whole tone
10 and upwards - the harmonics get closer together, fewer are actually in any diatonic scale, they are generally getting beyond the hearing range, and they start getting mixed up with the natural hiss of the bowing.
If you bow between the 7th and 9th harmonics you're going to physically cut out the 7th - 9th and give more prominence to the clearer lower harmonics which are the notes of the major chord on the base note of the open string. If you bow on the 5th harmonic (about 66 mm from the fiddle bridge) you're going to cut out a very important major third harmonic as well as starting to produce a weak spongy tone, which you don't want in Irish music, although it may have its place if you want to play something very quiet and mysterious in a slow air.
what he said - way better than me trying to even attempt explaining it. Basically in other words...experiment. If all stringed instruments were equal we would all be playing mould plastic ones.
One thing that's worth reminding people about who go from steel-core strings to synthetics is that you'll probably be tuning more from the pegs than you would otherwise. Tuning from the pegs means that there is a natural tendency for the strings to pull the top of the bridge slightly towards the fingerboard, so that the feet of the bridge are no longer in completely flat contact with the top table. If you look carefully you may see a fine line where the tailpiece side of the feet have lifted very slightly (a small fraction of a millimetre). This adversely affects
the tone - a difference you can hear. All you need to do is to GENTLY grip the top of the bridge and pull it back towards the tailpiece so that the feet are now square n the table. It's a movement of no more than a fraction of a illimetre. When you've done this, if you look at the bridge from the side you should see that the tailpiece side of the bridge is now at a perfect right-angle to the table - as it should be. Every so often - once a week perhaps - check this angle to see if the bridge is starting to lean the wrong way.
BTW, in my first post on this thread I mentioned the Vision Titanium strings, and wondered about the use of the word "titanium". In fact, on reading the accompanying documentation with the strings (must do that more often!) I discovered that the E-string is stainless steel coated with titanium. Incidentally, this explains why the string is difficult to see against a black fingerboard in most lighting.
My source for the information about the sweet spot on piano strings is Helmholtz's "Sensations of Tone".
I know a full-time professional solo violinist whose strings of choice for his 18c Italian fiddle are steel-cored Helicores. Which he uses without micrometer adjusters and tunes from the pegs. Just goes to show.
I tried to live with them, but finally went back to my Prims. The deciding factor was a surprising thing – to me, anyway. I would’ve expected synth-core strings to be a little quieter and mellower, but they were actually louder than the Prims and so strong on the high frequencies that I just couldn’t enjoy the sound.
As I replaced the strings, one-by-one, with the Prims, I could hear the voice getting darker and smoother. Now it’s back to what I’ve always liked in this fiddle.
To be fair, I might’ve gotten a voice more to my liking if I’d spent more time tweaking the soundpost, but it didn’t seem to be going in a direction I like. I really think Evah is a brilliant string. On the right fiddle. It just doesn’t work for me.
Technical fiddle string question
Technical fiddle string question
I've played steel strings for a long time, but after reading all the endorsements here for Evah Pirazzi strings, I sold one of my kidneys and bought a set. This is my first real experience with synthetic strings. I put them on a few hours ago and let them settle in before playing.
They have a nice warm voice, etc., but I've noticed an annoying phenomenon. I tend to bow near the end of the fingerboard and when I do this with the new strings, the note often wants to choke down, sputter and sound about a half step flat. With a little experimenting, I realized that the location of the nasty spot depends on where the string is fingered. In fact, it's at the second octave node above the note fingered, i.e., three-quarters of the way up from the fingered note. Apparently, bowing there is perturbing the node just enough to shift it slightly, thereby changing the pitch. Intuitively, it seems to result from the relative slackness of synthetic strings.
Anybody else noticed this with synthetic strings? Is it common knowledge to everybody except me? I can avoid it by playng closer to the bridge, but that loses some of the warmth of the tone. Besides, when I finger a note with the pinky, it pushes the "nasty spot" (that's a copyrighted technical term) closer to the bridge. Also, if I bow very lightly, it doesn't happen so much.
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
# Posted on September 17th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Maybe somebody better educated will correct me, but I don't think it's unique to synthetic strings. It's just the nature of the beast.
I once saw a TV program about bowed instruments that showed, in super slow motion, how the string vibrates both above and below where the bow crosses the string. Getting those two vibrations to agree with each other is tricky, but will produce the best tone. The ideal spot for the bow would change depending on where your finger is placed, but you can't jitter the bow around for each different note, so you have to compromise.
That's one reason why beginner fiddlers screech so much--they haven't figured out where the sweet spot (or, more practically, the semi-sweet spot) is, to get the best agreement between those two sets of vibrations.
Although I suppose that a less than perfect fingerboard could also contribute to the problem--does yours have a smooth surface, or is it a bit wavy?
# Posted on September 17th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Yep, synth core strings seem spongier to me than steel-core strings, especially when bowing down over the fingerboard. Perhaps another way to think of this is that the semi-sweet (bittersweet?
) spot is broader on steel strings.
I use Evah Pirazzis (synth), and came to them from Helicores (steel), and noticed this difference.
In the long run, this "problem" helped me learn a lot about bowing and my particular fiddle. As mickray says, I learned to keep the bow on that narrower semisweet spot, and also to modify my bow speed and pressure when I wanted to play off that semisweet spot for a different tone. A lighter touch and a bit more bow speed gives me a good tone over the fingerboard (maybe sacrificing a little volume) when I want that dark, chamois sound (great for playing duets with a flute). The closer I move toward the bridge, the more I can lean the hair into the strings and still get a strong, clean note (good for cutting through in a big nosiy session), almost regardless of bow speed.
My two fiddles have very different sounds--one woody and dark, the other brassy and brighter, so the semisweet spots and tonal ranges are different from one fiddle to the next.
I guess what I'm hinting at here is that the high-quality synth strings allow for a broader range of tonal colors than steel strings, at least in my experience, and once you figure out how to get them out of your bow hand and fiddle.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Oh, 'ello David! You were short and to the point, and beat me to it.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Technical fiddle string question
whoosis--I think Helicores are perlon, not steel. I remember the violin shop guy opening the package, and letting one of them uncoil like a wet noodle. I had never seen anything like it, having used Prim and Jarger up to that point.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Actually, Helicores have a stranded steel core, making them more supple than your standard solid steel core strings like Jargar or Prim. Analogues to Helicore are Spirocore and Superflexible (also called Ropecore), which are both from Thomastik.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by fhidileoir
Re: Technical fiddle string question
"A lighter touch and a bit more bow speed gives me a good tone over the fingerboard (maybe sacrificing a little volume)..."
Now that you mention it, I think I was beginning to notice that. So, maybe I was spoiled by steel core strings and now I have to play smarter.
I haven't noticed this phenomenon at all with the hard strings. I've always found my favorite tone right at the end of the fingerboard with no intonation problems. Trying to think about it from a physics point of view, it makes some sense that a more slack string would be more prone to this. In my very brief experience, it seems that the synth strings tolerate playing closer to the bridge without losing sweetness.
I hadn't anticipated making so much change to my feeble technique, but having made the investment, I intend to give 'em a fair trial.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Mickray: Helicore strings have "Multi-Strand twisted steel core" according to www.daddariobowed.com.
They have a feel that is somewhere in between the solid core strings like Prim and the synthetic core strings like Evah Pirazzi.
I used Helicores for a long time and was not dissatisfied. But I began to feel that they were limited, and maybe I was missing something.
Around that time a player I really respect sang the praises of Zyex string (also made by D'Addario) and more or less dared me to try them. I did, and have not looked back They have a synthetic core. They also break in pretty quickly, compared to some synthetics (so I'm told. They're the only synth. strings I have used)
I can't say I noticed the problem that started this thread. I switched to Zyex, and while I could feel the difference it was pretty much love at first sight. I could even hear the violins playing. Oh, wait. That was me.
As others have pointed out, the synth. core strings just have more to say than the steel core strings.
But it's a personal choice.
Bo_in_VA
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by Bo_in_VA
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Oops. How embarrassing. Thanks for correcting me, on perlon vs. stranded steel cores. (Note to self: If you're not sure, look it up before you start blathering, you eejit!)
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Don't beat yourself up over it--in most respects, Helicores do indeed act more like synthetic strings than other steel strings.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Bob, sounds like you figured it out. You can definitely over-push strings.
I have a tendency to play hard, coupled with a preference for a "clean" sound. My fiddle has a nice voice and I like the way Heliocore's sound on it. I tried a variety of strings and came back to them. Probably the best other string I tried was the Evah's, however. They just didn't seem to last long enough for me.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by Jode
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Jode, I think if I played with an accordion much, as you do, I would stick with Helicores too. You can really lean on them without distorting the tone, and they last forever. Excellent strings, and just the ticket for getting good volume and a clear tone out of most fiddles. Prims are another good choice for this scenario.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Well, now it occurs to me that maybe I’ve been relying too much on bow pressure instead of accurate placement when I go to play two strings together. The steel-core strings let me get away with it, but the synthetics don’t want to be pushed that hard, except in case of emergency. Another reason to work on my basic technique. Maybe I’ll be a better person for it.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Hmm Will, you might be on to something there. I suppose if I did more solo playing, I might move in a different direction. And Bob, consider your bow and its tension too. When one pushes harder, one tends to keep a taughter bow.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by Jode
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Bob, a tip I picked up from Kevin Burke might help here too. He cautioned not to lean harder when playing two strings together, but rather to back off a bit or at least keep it steady. With both strings vibrating, you'll actually get a slight increase in volume anyway, without any extra pressure on the bow (and Kevin demonstrated this clear as a bell). We're so used to hearing doublestops as louder that our bow hands automatically respond by leaning on the stick. I was certainly guilty of just that, and the advice went a long way toward improving my tone. In fact, I've found it works in most cases where my tone fuzzes out or gets harsh--go for a lighter touch. That and a little faster bow speed usually sweetens the tone and helps the fiddle project.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Technical fiddle string question
I think the whole concept of "leaning" on your strings is the wrong way to go. There is an optimum pressure for the best tone, and your dynamics comes from the speed of the bow,
I remember when I'd been playing for not that long and a good friend bought me my first tomastic dominants as a present. I remember thinking that I must be not tuning them up properly, they felt so baggy and just died so easilly. But it didn't take long to realise I was just leaning on them.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Depends on how much you use dynamics in your playing. Bow speed can only do so much. Of course, dynamics aren't a necessary piece of playing this music. But some people do use it to good advantage--Cait Reed and Brendan Bulger come to mind. And Kevin Burke likes to play polkas with a good bit of lean, then releasing the string to get more pop on accented notes. To me, pow pressure is just another tool for expression and like anything else, can be overdone.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Technical fiddle string question
I agree, but this style of extra bow pressure is used percussively and in very short bursts. And it actually does kill the tone in a way. It's part of that "putting a bit of grit" into your playing, that people talk about.
And this, of course, links to the thread the other week about getting a decent bow that's not too light.
# Posted on September 18th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Just to be clear, I am not espousing the application of lots of pressure. I agree that it can cause more problems. But it is a fact of life for me that I do dig in a bit too much when I cannot hear myself. It could be a gig, or it could be a loud session. Otherwise, I favour a solid bow.
Just outta badness, Michael, wouldn't a little extra pressure on a tougher string equate to less pressure on a baggy string? It may be bad logic, but I think that is why I like the Hellas. I can get away with a little more pressure and still get a good tone out of the fiddle (or a tone with which I am happy).
# Posted on September 19th 2006 by Jode
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Yes, I think that's right Jode. The parameters of what you can get away with are wider. That doesn't mean, however, that you can get a wider tonal range in the long run with the better strings. It's just practice
# Posted on September 19th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Technical fiddle string question
By the way, I did recently purchase a set of Dominants. Back when I was doing my string experiments, that is where I started. I ended up liking the Hellas the best, but never went back to where I started.
# Posted on September 19th 2006 by Jode
Re: Technical fiddle string question
It also depends on your fiddle, of course. Some fiddles lack the subtlety that the dominants can give.
# Posted on September 19th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Don't forget those two other extremely important factors in the tone-production equation - the player and bow. A cheap (in the sense of "rubbish") bow will deaden and kill the tone very effectively, and certainly won't help you to get the best out of good strings. There's not a lot you can do about this situation except to get a good bow. If you're a beginner you're not really in an effective position to make a good choice - that goes with being a beginner, no matter what the activity - so the best thing is to rely on the judgment of an experienced player/teacher.
A week ago I decided the Zyex's on my old German fiddle were due for replacement, so I got a set of Thomastik's synthetic core Vision Titanium strings. (btw, I think the "Titanium" word is marketing-speak, because the G and D are silver-wound and the A is aluminium-wound. The E is solid steel.) I don't think I'll look back, even to Obligatos or Zyex. The Visions were stable within an hour of installation; and in a 3-hour session last night their tuning remained stable. They are significantly more powerful than Zyex and have a richer, more complex tone. The E is particularly powerful and clear. Unlike some "loud" strings, the Visions can be played very softly without losing quality and depth of tone (this is where a good bow helps, anyway). And as others have pointed out, you can bow good synthetics closer to the bridge than you can with steel cores.
In my years as a cellist I've become very used to the "spongy tone" spot near the end of the finger-board when playing in the first position. In orchestral playing you're sometimes required to play softly in this region to get a mysterious quiet effect (technically, it's called playing "sul tasto") and you very soon learn to use a gentler bowing technique in this region so as not to destroy the tone or intonation. Exactly the same applies to the violin and viola. In my cello and fiddle playing my bow is generally about halfway between the end of the fingerboard and the bridge - the sweet spot - again when playing in the first postion. On the cello if I'm playing in a high position (7 and above) as cellists often do then I would automatically move my bow close to the bridge so as to maintain the tone. The closer you play to the bridge then the more bow pressure you have to apply; the trick is to be able to do this with causing the string to squawk or screech. Woodshedding is the answer.
From the technical point of view it is interesting to watch a violinist playing a concerto live. These players are in the business of projecting their tone over the orchestra to the back of a large concert hall, so they know how to do it. Granted, they've got very good instruments and bows, but so will most of the string players in a professional orchestra, so it's not just the equipment. The soloist, particularly in the loud bits, will bow very close to the bridge so as to maximise the volume without ruining the tonal quality. But then, these guys know all about woodshedding big time
# Posted on September 19th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Hi Bob,
I'm a barely competent multi-instrumentalist. In the 1980s I was playing accordion in a ceili band. I had a fiddle, with steel strings, but the band wouldn't let me play it as the real fiddle player was so much better than me. He also had a very beautiful and expensive fiddle, which sounded lovely in his hands. He also had strings which he was too embarrassed to tell me how much they cost.
I had a go on his fiddle one day, and I had exactly the phenomenon you describe, so much so that I couldn't play the lovely fiddle.
Since then I've stopped and started playing the fiddle a few times, but recently I've been doing more fiddling, and I’ve got a bit better. Sometimes people even stay in the same room when I’m playing. I've been using Dominant strings for years, but the other I decided to try a new kind, Warchal Karneols.
I was intrigued to find I had the old semi-tone wobble/choking phenomenon straight away, on the A and D strings. I've been playing the strings for a few days now, and it happens less and less often. At this early stage I'd say these strings require more care in playing than the Dominants, but they have a very nice and flexible sound (by my standards), they are responsive, the G is better than the Dominant one, and didn't wobble for me even when it was brand new. I think in the hands of more competent players than me they might sound fantastic. Worth checking out maybe the next time you need new strings. I've not used Evah Thingies, but I've heard they don't last long.
# Posted on September 19th 2006 by Bernie 29
Re: Technical fiddle string question
The trick to keeping people in the same room while you play is to lock the doors before you start.
I just replaced the cheap steel strings on my cheap'n'nasty "camping fiddle" with some Helicores, prior to going camping in the delightful rain and high winds we've been promised, and I immediately got the wobbling phenomenon on the A and D strings. Although it otherwise sounds better, I think the moral is that a cheap'n'nasty fiddle sometimes requires cheap'n'nasty strings.
# Posted on September 19th 2006 by JerryH
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Thanks, folks! So much good information, so little grey matter to process it all…
I’m glad to learn that the note-choking thing is not something wrong with my fiddle, but now I have to tighten up my technique a bit. I hadn’t expected that. I did notice one immediate benefit of the change to looser strings – my crans sound better.
# Posted on September 19th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Some theoretical and practical background and justification for the "sweet spot" on the fiddle.
On the piano, in its middle range, the hammer is arranged to strike the string at a point somewhere between 1/7 and 1/9 of the string length from the bridge. This point is the "sweet spot" because over the centuries of development of keyboard instruments it has been found in practice to produce the tone and response that is most attractive to the player and the listener.
The same distance along the fiddle string from the bridge, 1/7 to 1/9 of the string's vibrating length, is also the fiddle's "sweet spot" for bowing. On one of my fiddles, which has a 330 mm string length, this is between 47 and 36 mm from the bridge. On my cello (689 mm string length) the sweet spot is between 98 and 76 mm from the bridge.
Bearing in mind that no two fiddles are exactly the same, you may be able to relate the sweet spot to the position of the top of the f-holes; on my instruments it is roughly in that area, but it does vary between the instruments. What is inadvisable - and I've heard this said - is to tell the pupil to bow halfway between the bridge and the end of the fingerboard. Although this works for many fiddles it can lead to poor tonal results if it is applied by the pupil to a fiddle with a shorter fingerboard. Fingerboards do vary in length.
Now for the theoretical justification. If you go up a string playing the harmonics you get the sequence,
1 open string
2 octave
3 octave + a fifth
4 two octaves
5 two octaves + a major third
6 two octaves + a fifth
7 two octaves + a very flat seventh that's not in any diatonic scale, so not very attractive
8 three octaves
9 three octaves + a whole tone
10 and upwards - the harmonics get closer together, fewer are actually in any diatonic scale, they are generally getting beyond the hearing range, and they start getting mixed up with the natural hiss of the bowing.
If you bow between the 7th and 9th harmonics you're going to physically cut out the 7th - 9th and give more prominence to the clearer lower harmonics which are the notes of the major chord on the base note of the open string. If you bow on the 5th harmonic (about 66 mm from the fiddle bridge) you're going to cut out a very important major third harmonic as well as starting to produce a weak spongy tone, which you don't want in Irish music, although it may have its place if you want to play something very quiet and mysterious in a slow air.
# Posted on September 19th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Technical fiddle string question
blimey, fascinating
# Posted on September 19th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Technical fiddle string question
what he said - way better than me trying to even attempt explaining it. Basically in other words...experiment. If all stringed instruments were equal we would all be playing mould plastic ones.
# Posted on September 19th 2006 by Joze
Re: Technical fiddle string question
One thing that's worth reminding people about who go from steel-core strings to synthetics is that you'll probably be tuning more from the pegs than you would otherwise. Tuning from the pegs means that there is a natural tendency for the strings to pull the top of the bridge slightly towards the fingerboard, so that the feet of the bridge are no longer in completely flat contact with the top table. If you look carefully you may see a fine line where the tailpiece side of the feet have lifted very slightly (a small fraction of a millimetre). This adversely affects
the tone - a difference you can hear. All you need to do is to GENTLY grip the top of the bridge and pull it back towards the tailpiece so that the feet are now square n the table. It's a movement of no more than a fraction of a illimetre. When you've done this, if you look at the bridge from the side you should see that the tailpiece side of the bridge is now at a perfect right-angle to the table - as it should be. Every so often - once a week perhaps - check this angle to see if the bridge is starting to lean the wrong way.
BTW, in my first post on this thread I mentioned the Vision Titanium strings, and wondered about the use of the word "titanium". In fact, on reading the accompanying documentation with the strings (must do that more often!) I discovered that the E-string is stainless steel coated with titanium. Incidentally, this explains why the string is difficult to see against a black fingerboard in most lighting.
My source for the information about the sweet spot on piano strings is Helmholtz's "Sensations of Tone".
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Technical fiddle string question
Cool...I want titanium strings for all four--invisible strings!
Thanks for the review of those, Trevor. I'll have to give 'em a try. They can't be any more expensive than the Evah's.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Technical fiddle string question
I know a full-time professional solo violinist whose strings of choice for his 18c Italian fiddle are steel-cored Helicores. Which he uses without micrometer adjusters and tunes from the pegs. Just goes to show.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Evah Pirazzi update
Evah Pirazzi update
I tried to live with them, but finally went back to my Prims. The deciding factor was a surprising thing – to me, anyway. I would’ve expected synth-core strings to be a little quieter and mellower, but they were actually louder than the Prims and so strong on the high frequencies that I just couldn’t enjoy the sound.
As I replaced the strings, one-by-one, with the Prims, I could hear the voice getting darker and smoother. Now it’s back to what I’ve always liked in this fiddle.
To be fair, I might’ve gotten a voice more to my liking if I’d spent more time tweaking the soundpost, but it didn’t seem to be going in a direction I like. I really think Evah is a brilliant string. On the right fiddle. It just doesn’t work for me.
# Posted on October 18th 2006 by Bob himself