No, not me...but one of the regulars in the area where I play. The leader of the session said that it had simply gotten to be Too Much, and told the fellow that he was welcomed to come, but he was not to bring his instrument any more.
Hints have been dropped to this fellow for a very long time, but he never seemed to take them. He never seemed to understand that when he sat down, other people stood up. Some just moved, but others left the session. I don't know if he got to the point where he couldn't hear what was going on, but he really never was competent at any tune, though he'd been part of the sessions ever since I knew.
I'm both deeply relieved, and a bit distressed. He's not a young man, and he hasn't been seen since. I don't have a question to pose here, or really much to offer...just needed to talk it out.
The rest of you probably aren't much better , you probably wounded him to the quick, living legends in your own mind... the greater you are the more tolerant you are
Intolerant lot - what's wrong with someone who makes no attempt to tune his instrument and plays along all night even though he knows hardly any of the tunes! Give the lad a chance.
Maybe doofus wasn't experienced, and maybe someone could have pulled doofus aside and explained that he was ruining the music.
I'd rather play at a session where there was great music than at a session where every eggshaker's ego is stroked and five strummers wildly flail away, wishing they knew what great music really can be.
I say good on him, this session leader who had the balls to prevent doofus from completely destroying the session all together.
I know it’s done, and it sounds like you feel bad about it, Tyg, so I don’t mean to rub salt in the wound, but it seems like there are so many steps between “hinting” and an ultimatum like “You can’t play with us any more”. Like, taking the person to one side for a heart to heart etc. I know life is short and the time we have for music even more brief and you hate to waste it, but man that’s cold.
Doesn’t sound like he was an egg shaker, just not… good. I don’t know what the situation with him might be, dementia, perhaps, deafness? Nice compassionate use of the term "doofus", though. Try throwing in an occasional “retard” for variety.
In Tyg's defense, most times when a thread like this shows up, we all jump to conclusions, and tend to say "oh how cruel, why didn't you try this or that" and then find that this or that was tried to no avail.
Sometimes, people just are not suited to participate in groups together, whether it be a session or a musical group, and need to go their separate ways. No matter how well handled, it is tough, nasty business, even when in the long run it is the best for all parties involved. I still feel bad the Beatles broke up!
Egotistical prats, I presume that you consider yourselves technical perfectionists, and, if you do, I can only say, pack it in and learn to play with compassion and soul. Pete Seegers accurate description of the great Woody Guthrie sums you lot up. "Any damned fool can be complicated, it takes a genius to make it simple" If youre only there to show off then F... off and die
Tolerance please and don't jump to conclusions
Maybe tygress has tried all sorts of strategies.
I look forward all week to our regular session and we are all of differing abilites and levels. Sometimes we have a cracking night other nights - well its a bit of a disappointment for all sorts of reasons. If someone was continually making it disappointing then it woudl have to be sorted out somehow in the most sensitive way so that if possible no one gets hurt. It sounds like tygress has agonised over this one. But maybe the bloke who left could be approached just in case he is upset. Not an easy one.
Interesting quote you used there Strayaway - "Any damned fool can be complicated, it takes a genius to make it simple". But tell me, what about a simple guy who is just trying to make something simple? Can that work too?
There's no way we can judge the situation from our perspective on this message board. Unless we were actually there and familiar with the people in that session -- we can only guess. The issue is whether the person in question was spoiling the session or not. If the people there believe he was then we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.
No one likes to see something like this happen, but it isn't unheard of. We all want to participate in a session that's fun. If it stops being fun then something's wrong. Deciding what's wrong and what to do about it is up to the people in that session. It sounds like they tolerated it for a long time before taking action. Not taking any action might have led to the demise of their session.
Ptarmy, a person with your undeniable knowledge should not be posing such questions. You and other great thinkers of our time have long since reached the conclusion that simplicity IS genius. So, there you go, I've told you what you think......work that out
Can really one man be such a big problem. If all other in the session are playing well, why bother with one person playing bad? I can't understand that this will be sounding that terrible.
Silly me, I suppose I was rather foolish after all to give you the benefit of the doubt & expect a polite mannerly response to my question, given the foul language you used in your previous post!
Because of your foul language, this thread will no doubt be deleted!
There is absolutely no call for it here & no matter how foolish or ignorant you may think I am, foul language, & this may come as a shock to you, certainly does not make you look intelligent.
I got myself evicted from a band, and the other band broke up at the same time. It wasn't pleasant. It was largely my fault. I'm not a bad player, nor a totally insufferable person (at least some of the time), but it was a tumultuous time in my life, a screaming mid-life crisis on top of a chronic lack of confidence, compounded by a failure of character I'm still haunted by, and the other folks got tired of the drama. I don't blame them. Stuff happens, but it still hurts, and I'm still deeply embarassed by it.
Maybe the guy was truly incompetent, but I can tell you that it's a real blow to be evicted, even if for seemingly good and rational reasons. It's downright depressing. The only good news is that I've had extra time to lick my wounds, think a lot, and try to settle down again and keep my trap shut. But I've lost friendships, and strained others.
You may have a good reason to break up a band, throw someone out of a session, chew someone out, etc., but no one really wins in these situations. And you can never take back your words or your actions.
You're right Glenn I wasn't being serious and I'd commend the session leader for tackling the problem head-on. The alternative course of "no action" would probably have led to the demise of the session with the other musicians voting with their feet. Knowing any sessions I've been involved with, I'd imagine that this was a last resort as the majority of musicians do tend to be tolerant and try and integrate musicians of varying ability into the group - eg "what tunes do you know?" or "start something yourself".
It has been generally assumed that most session problems are down to bad musicians but just as much damage can be caused by the exceptionally talented ones who will insist on playing weird and wonderful complex tunes all night that no one else knows! Again a problem for the good session leader to gently explain the difference between a session and a performance!
Sorry Ptarm, it's all I know. We Gortnalee boys never had the chance of a good education. Too busy milking cows and cutting turf for that. Not for us the words of Robespierre and the strains of debussy, instead, the word of the lord and the dulcet tones of big tom and the mainliners. Do I get excused now?
Not to worry glenn, doofus isn’t really all that harsh, I think I just felt bad for the guy and over-reacted. Reading the other comments, some excellent points on both sides made. Sad situation all round.
Tyghress,
We had a similar situation at our session last year... The young man in question had fair playing ability, but he was over powering the rest of us in terms of volume- nobody could hear anyone but him, and he didn't give anyone else a chance to start tunes. Each musician had individual discussions with him trying to make suggestions and help him understand the flow of our session, but nothing really worked. Each of us really wanted to see it work out, but it was destroying the session, and in the end, he realized that he was doing more harm than good and stopped coming. We did discover, however, that the young man did better at another local session where there was more structure. Is there another session in your area? If so, maybe you could recommend it to him? He may be able to fit in better in a different session environment...
I have to be honest here and say that on occasion I have had to have harsh words with boyos who were, quite simply, bloody session wreckers.
Well intentioned but ultimately disastrous to the session and leading really good musicians, good and tolerant people, to walk away.
Faced with a choice of losing a great session or permitting a tube to continue wrecking I know what my decision will be.
I will always give someone the chance to learn/improve their behaviour, offer some quiet words to the wise, hint strongly, tell them straight to their face, ...........
Tyghress evidently doesn't know whether or not there were some steps taken along the spectrum between hints and, "Your instrument isn't welcome, mate."
I think in a situation like this, some discreet communication between the anchor(s) and the regulars is warranted so that said regulars know their concerns are being dealt with. It also minimizes the shock of finding out that someone was asked to leave.
I sympathize with the leaders in that situation. I can think of several situations I've known or known of where someone was a session/club wrecker, and they simply would not hear that they were not a beloved and flawless member of the community. You can hint, ask, and tell, and they just don't get it, or can't, or don't choose to. When that happens, the leader has to bite the bullet or the session will peter out as more and more good musicians get tired of the garbage.
Just happened to me. I evicted myself because of situations that weren't being addressed in a session that I understand has been getting smaller and smaller.
Seems to me not enough info was given as to why this person had gotten to be "TOO MUCH." What does "not... competent at any tune" mean? If the session is a clique that's getting tight(er) and the person just couldn't cut it then perhaps the group should become a band and lose the openness of the session. If the person was unwilling to learn to meld with the whole, well, that's something else.... BTW, I'm a believer that some people can't sing, but my wife would disagree with me--and she's a singer ;^) So Tyg, what's the whole story? Just curious.
I've seen a guy kicked out of a session in Galway once. By his brother.
He, a lovely player when sober, was drunk beyond all competence, and didn't take it well.
An interesting session that was.
I also have an acquaintance who would not be told that he doesn't have rhythm.
He bought himself a bodhran, got one lesson (from a "young scut of a lad" , cost him 30 euro!), and headed on down to a pub session in West Kerry.
I have nor record of the musicians' reactions, but the barman told him to leave, and not to bring the bodhran back there again!
I stopped going to a session some years ago because of one player who battered away at the bodhran without regard for time, tempo or volume. We tried dropping hints, we tried talking to him directly. He wouldn't go away, and as far as the landlord was concerned he had as much right to be in the pub as anyone else. So I stopped going, and a few weeks later I heard that the session broke up.
It's better to offend one person than lose the lot. And there's half a chance that he will take the hint, listen to himself and improve.
There was an Irish bodhran player that showed up at our sesh a few times who would profess all sorts of Irish liniage but was himself a woafull player. The publican asked me one night, (when said bodhran player was there and had already left,) why I didn't ask him to stop, (like I had some other bad bodhran player once before.) I was taken back a bit; I realized I was intimidated by the guy's Irish credentials. Just as I was realizing this the publican (from Belfast) said to me, "What... is it because he's Irish?" And then he laughed. Lucky for me that was the last we ever saw of the guy.
“F... off and die” ?? - Strayway, oh you self righteous little….
Funny how tolerant people are of “session destroyers” when they read of them on a thread
I wonder how these people would actually react in a real life situations if someone threatened the eExistence of their session.
Why make the assumption that Tyghress session is full of tossers ?
I think that was just the easy self-righteous opinion.
People are generally good, lets start with that assumption, and I don’t suspect otherwise in this scenario…..why ? Because
despite finally biting the bullet of someone who was ruining
the session for everyone else Tyghress felt bad because there
is still a lonely person involved.
But it must have been a nightmare situation because despite
the distress Tyghress feels he/she is still relieved.
Put yourself in this situation:
There’s a guy at your session who is awful, plays out of tune,
bad rhythm etc
(“he really never was competent at any tune”)
and you’ve being putting up with that for a long time
(“he'd been part of the sessions ever since I knew.”)
You've been trying to work around it and get him to improve,
but he obviously wasn't bothered was more interested in his
enjoyment than the enjoyment of the session as a whole
(“Hints have been dropped to this fellow for a very long time,
but he never seemed to take them”)
It had got so bad that the session was in danger of folding
altogether (“Some just moved, but others left the session.”)
So for the good of the session the leader eventually and
obviously after a long time of tolerance asked him to stop
playing at the session, but that he was still welcome to come
along – to me that sounds like he was possibly leaving the
door open for a return.
Not been any good is no reason to ask someone to leave -
otherwise we'd all have to go !!
However this situation above doesn't sound like that scenario.
So . . . somewhere between a session of reasonable people driven demented by the catastrophically bad and loud playing of someone with the sensitivity of a bandsaw, and a bunch of musical snobs who don't want anyone there who doesn't meet the standards of perfection they consider they themselves achieve. A hint that is somewhere between 'I have trouble tuning my fiddle too - have you tried one of these electronic tuners' and pulling faces behind his back when he plays . . . There isn't enough information to decide about Tyghress 's session.
It's a hard one, because two people may see the same situation differently. It seems insensitive to expect the guy to continue coming to the session when he's been publically humiliated - maybe he's stomped off in a huff to some other session - or maybe he's been so hurt he isn't even playing any more - who knows?
But there was X, the flute player who after taking a breath continued at exactly the same note at which he'd left off before taking the breath, and Y, the only man ever to play eight and a half bar blues . A really bad player will ruin it for everyone, but if people are not beyond help, maybe we should help them?
Sorry to say, but it sounds heartless. Was he causing physical pain? Coming to the Sessions may have been the only enjoyment he had.
That's the only problem I've ever had with some of the sessions I've been involved in -- The Session Mafioso. When I was learning to play if there had been people in the session who had asked me to kindly leave my flutes at home, I would have been mortified. I can't think of a worse thing to say to someone.
"Coming to the Sessions may have been the only enjoyment he had."
What about the enjoyment of the other musicians -- does that mean nothing?
"When I was learning to play if there had been people in the session who had asked me to kindly leave my flutes at home, I would have been mortified. I can't think of a worse thing to say to someone."
If it was a learning session they would have no reason to, but a common misconception people make is that any session is a learning session. Granted, there are sessions where this is acceptable and encouraged, but not all sessions are meant for people who are in the process of learning. It doesn't mean anything is wrong with sessions that are more advanced, or the people playing in it are snobs -- it just means they enjoy playing the music at a particular level. If someone decides that a session shouldn’t in any way be exclusive and they insist on making every session their own personal learning tool regardless of the desires of the people playing in it -- then they're asking for trouble.
Again, I don't know enough about the session that Tyghress described at the start of this thread, or if the circumstances are related to my point in this post, but the bottom line should always be to never make assumtions and use common sense and good manners when approaching any session you would like to participate in.
People who are just learning to play are one thing. The ones who take time to practice and improve over the years. Who may be bad to start with, like we all are, but who work at getting better. I've liked playing with people like that from the start, when I was in the same place and struggling. We all learned together and complimented each other on the gradual improvements we saw. None of us consider ourselves virtuosos. But we are competent.
But I don't think people are Session Mafioso when they expect fellow musicians to improve over time. I played for years with someone who had no sense of rhythm, insisted on playing on everything whether he knew it or not and when offered a tuner to tune properly said "oh, I tune by ear." and proceeded to prove time and again that he couldn't. I saw this person flat out chase people out of every session or jam I ever saw him in. People just got up and left. And he never did figure it out, even when told to his face (not by me). Oh, and he always brought at least three instruments. He couldn't play any of them. Often, he brought four.
So, some of you have a lot more patience than I do, I guess. Maybe I'm just getting cranky in my old age. Hey! Someone who can write a tune should write one called "The Cranky Reel" or something I feel sorry for Tygress. I finally just refused to play with the guy if he turned up at an event.
i have to say, it can be soul destroying to have a regular in a session that just doesn't add to it. when you set time aside to play tunes and you're in the company of other musicians who inspire and drive you, why should you carry the musician who doesn't have rhythm or whatever it is that makes him/her stand out? surely the majority rule..we play regular 'paid' sessions and the owner thereby makes us responsible for the output. we love sharing our music with anyone but facing two and a half hours when you hear that sound that screams 'i need more practise' is tough going sometimes. we always tolerate it but i have spent days trying to work out something to say that isn't offensive and always came up blank. if a drunk blasted his way into a conversation between friends, we wouldn't be a bit concerned if he was told to stop interrupting or even ejected from the bar( i've seen people cheer on occasion! ), and i think that like a drunk who's still responsible for his behaviour, musicians should be just as responsible for their output....
we actually played one sunday afternoon, quiet bar and kevin crawford had dropped in so we were all dying for the tune. after about an hour this fella came in with a guitar and sat in the middle of the floor and faced away from the session and if that guitar was a donkey. he'd have done time for abuse!! it was AWFUL!! i was just about to put away my instrument but kevin said 'keep playing-if we stop he's won'..we kept going but we were doing battle not playing and it was horrible...so i say, when it becomes intolerable..(really bad)..then tell them that what they're doing doesn't fit in and to get a round in on their way out!!
A dear friend of mine, a world-renowned musician, once recounted a story of playing with Joe Cooley in San Francisco. An elderly man joined in, not particularly good, and sort of scratched away on his fiddle. During a break, one of the musicians made a comment to Joe about the quality of the man's music, suggesting that he shouldn't be playing with people of "their" caliber.
To which that great musician replied, "Sure isn't he doin' the best he can?"
Cute story, but obviously the errant musician wasn't noticed by Joe. A fiddle can't compete with the sound of a powerful accordion player, but the story might have a different ending if the fiddler was putting Joe himself off the tune. The musician described at the start of this thread wasn't just under caliber for the session -- he was putting people off. Big difference.
Well The PB, the difference is not in the person who was put off, but rather in the others, those who are responsible for allowing themselves to be put off and for their own exclusive attitudes. Obviously they have not the moral fibre of Joe Cooley to accept "the best he can" as being good enough. Culture, surely, is not about being good enough or not? Its about doing and being. Therefore, if a session is exclusive, it isn't cultural, it isn't about the handing down of traditional music, its just plain egotistical and elitist. The session members should wear the responsibility of their own moral shortcomings. Its their problem.
Nobody said the session was exclusive -- that's how someone who might be wrecking it might see it. (Read what I said.) I've seen musicians of Cooly's stature struggle with the sort of thing tyghress described at the top. They have either tried to ignore it, left the session, or tried to do something about it. The bottom line is that they were bothered. The fact is that there are session wreckers out there; what to do about it is a topic on this thread.
It's only 'exclusive' according to your spin for the point I was making. By Learning I meant ‘learning the basics.’ If someone is just learning to play at all and they insist on using the session as their own private learning tool -- and it's interfering and possibly spoiling the session -- their time might be better spent at home. Until they can flow with the session it's pointless and rude to try to play before you’re ready. (Unless it's a 'learning session.')
Dow, I find your comments to be unnecessarily antagonistic. Of course I'm still learning, I wasn't saying anything remotely related to that. One of the things that makes ITM so valuable is that people continue learning the whole time they're involved. Why you need to jump to preposterous extremes to make your point is beyond me.
PB: "A common misconception people make is that any session is a learning session. Granted, there are sessions where this is acceptable and encouraged, but not all sessions are meant for people who are in the process of learning".
PB: "Of course I'm still learning"
So in that case your Plough session is one of these so-called "learning sessions", then?
Reminds me of a friend who sat in on a old timey session bringing in his HD. After a short break everybody started up again and my friend noticed he was way out of tune. He went out and carefully tuned, listening to the music (didn't own a tuner at the time). He returned to play about the time everybody went on break. When they returned he found he was again way out of tune. Seemed as though they were tuning a quarter note off just to make him leave.
Let's see if its a matter of length...here's part I
Thank you all for your input on this situation. I posted quite a long response yesterday, but it appears to have gone astray. Here is a synopsis:
The fellow is middling elderly, which is probably why so many of us tolerated him with good grace for a long time. He's quite loud on his button accordion, plays virtually two notes (in and out) and can manage a recognizable Out on the Ocean -- but nothing else. I am not exaggerating when I say its like sitting next to a donkey -- two loud notes. Over the years he's gotten louder, and more belligerant which is why most of us avoid him rather than suggest, hint, discuss, etc. He is very belligerant, and insists that he knows what he's doing, knows all the tunes, has a right to play just as he's doing.
The sessions I know him from are of two kinds. The first is a very rough, very unstructured, many beginners and mostly intermediate players with one or two solid players chivvying us along (I consider myself to be intermediate, but occassionally I need to sit in as a 'solid player'). This session is falling apart *partly* due to this fellow, who is too often called 'Two Note Bob'. It is next to impossible to ignore his noise in this situation, and he drags other people off the music. In a situation where you're trying to teach people to listen to each other we also have to teach how to ignore. It is unlikely that TNB will ever be asked or told to leave this session, though one of his age-group has taken him aside and tried to talk with him.
(lets see if this posts....if so I'll continue in another)
An anecdote from one of these sessions: two mando players in this session had worked together on a tune set and asked to do them as a duet. TNB refused to sit out and insisted on playing. Three times the mando players stopped and asked him to quit while they did this as a duet. The rest of us pointed out that no one else was playing. He got belligerant and kept joining them until they quit (and left the session and went to the bar).
The other session is also open, but generally of a much higher caliber player and music. The lead players are miked (its in a bar that can get quite noisy) and they are led by a very good professional. If you are not sitting in one of the seats near TNB, you can ignore him under some circumstances, but he tends to come to these sessions late, elbow his way in as far as he can, and honk away whether or not he's ever heard the tune. (He claims that he can pick tunes up by ear after one repetition).
People move or leave the session when he sits down. Many of us have complained to the leader about him, and up until now he's agreed that TNB is a problem, but didn't know what to do about it.
An anecdote from this session: Tommy Peoples was sitting in, and played a few tunes solo.....except for TNB who said after that he was providing backup harmony.
This session also has spin off sessions that are quite a bit more intimate. They usually occur after a performance by top quality musicians over from Ireland. The final straw seems to have come at one of these sessions. I wasn't there, but heard from three people (including the leader of the session) what happened. TNB joined this session and was bad enough, and belligerant enough that the guests of honor declined to play and went to the bar instead.
I am delighted that he is no longer playing. I'm distressed that it took a direct confrontation to acheive it. I would be very happy if he came to listen and talk, but not play. I can't think of a nice way, a gentle way, a constructive way that wasn't tried. Today is the first session of the season so we'll see if he shows up there.
How much is a session group supposed to tolerate when someone cannot be taught session social skills? We have rank beginners who understand that you don't play if you don't know the tune. We have tone deaf old-timers who know that if they must play, play gently. We have showboats who have learned that it isn't a matter of speed all the time (okay, we DO have one person who insists that 'he who gets to the end of the tune first wins' and maintains that attitude with a grin. He is the second leg on the stool of reasons why I avoid this session as much as possible. The third leg is the physical set up of the 'session' that precludes people listening to each other).
I hope I've clarified the situation. This isn't a case of a rarefied session of snobs (they let me play!). This isn't a situation where evicting the guy was the first or second or third option. No, its not 'fair' to him, and it may well be the only thing he has socially (its not, he dances too, but that group is also not happy with him) but I don't practice, study and go to session in order to be socially charitable. I go for the music. If the music isn't worth it, why go?
God that sounds horrid. I'm not a horrid person. Please note that I didn't insist that he be evicted; I ceased going myself unless I was asked particularly to go (usually because the leaders were away and they were desperate for melody players). I certainly benefit from TNB not being there, I can't deny that.
We're taught to be charitable to the infirm -- but does that mean we must be so 100% of the time? Do the musically infirm have the right to impose themselves ALL the time? MOST of the time? Obviously this whole thing isn't sitting well with me, but it must be awful for the people who actually lead a session to figure out how to manage it for the greatest good.
Again, I thank you all for your discussion. Even the heated part.
Tyg
Tommy Peoples sat in on your session? I would have been picking my jaw up off the floor and had myself remembering to breathe. My goodness. I wonder what he thought about Two Note Bob!
Tyghress, I'm not a session expert or anything, but just from a social perspective, it sounds like everyone really tried to handle that guy in the kindest way possible. He really wasn't being considerate of all of you with the way he played over everyone.
Tyghress, thanks for explaining. After reading through your posts, I'm just sorry that this wasn't dealt with sooner. It sounds like this guy had every chance to turn in around. I also think he was treated with a whole lot more patience than he actually deserved.
What I also resent about this type of situation is you have a infirm or simply clueless person putting a lot of good people through a lot of grief, e.g., in figuring out how to handle the situation and its inevitable ramifications. I saw this happen with an SF Bay Area fiddle club. There was one incident when I was hosting a meeting where if I'd done the right thing, I'd have insisted she leave. The person in question had been evicted from pretty much every folk group, dance class, community chorus around. Yes, her situation is pitiable, and the person in question milked her "old and infirm" status for all it was worth. But the situations she created were worse, and there was no sign of a change. The then-officers agonized about asking her to leave. The upshot was that she was given one more chance, and the problems continued until her death.
If guests of honor had retired to the bar on my account, I'd never show my face in that establishment or in that general group of people again. I'd be sufficiently mortified, I think, to never even play again! If that's not powerful information, I really don't know what is. (Lightning striking the offending player? Is that what it would take?)
Tyrghress, let it go. The session leader and other participants did all they could, and IMO considerably more than they should have.
His problem may be medical. You say he is "middling elderly." People in the early stages of Alzheimers often behave in the way you describe. Sad, but not your fault, Tygh.
I would hate to be a member of hs family, I had a grandfather that was like that, except he was an old beligerent 'looking for a fight' alcoholic. Look at it this way, if handguns were legal in this country, someone from the family woud have been shot by him at some point.
At the end of the day, someone disruptive and detrimental to the session,encouragement and confidence of other players has to be removed. For the universal good. To start with, it looked like another arrogant semi-professional player, but when you described in detail what was going on. Then yes, I understand and support the decision.
Every time I think about attending another Session, I think of this post, two years after it was originally posted, and reconsider and do not go.
It saddens me. Surely the love of the music would be enough to enjoy that one person not particularly talented would not negate any amount of pleasure derived.
Evicted from Session
Evicted from Session
No, not me...but one of the regulars in the area where I play. The leader of the session said that it had simply gotten to be Too Much, and told the fellow that he was welcomed to come, but he was not to bring his instrument any more.
Hints have been dropped to this fellow for a very long time, but he never seemed to take them. He never seemed to understand that when he sat down, other people stood up. Some just moved, but others left the session. I don't know if he got to the point where he couldn't hear what was going on, but he really never was competent at any tune, though he'd been part of the sessions ever since I knew.
I'm both deeply relieved, and a bit distressed. He's not a young man, and he hasn't been seen since. I don't have a question to pose here, or really much to offer...just needed to talk it out.
Tyg
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Tyghress
Re: Evicted from Session
The rest of you probably aren't much better , you probably wounded him to the quick, living legends in your own mind... the greater you are the more tolerant you are
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Red Robin
Re: Evicted from Session
sound like a bunch of bastards, a session i wouldn't want to visit.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Maher
Re: Evicted from Session
Intolerant lot - what's wrong with someone who makes no attempt to tune his instrument and plays along all night even though he knows hardly any of the tunes! Give the lad a chance.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Bannerman
Re: Evicted from Session
Bannerman I assume your post was sarcastic?
Maybe doofus wasn't experienced, and maybe someone could have pulled doofus aside and explained that he was ruining the music.
I'd rather play at a session where there was great music than at a session where every eggshaker's ego is stroked and five strummers wildly flail away, wishing they knew what great music really can be.
I say good on him, this session leader who had the balls to prevent doofus from completely destroying the session all together.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by glenn
Re: Evicted from Session
It's distressing when something like this happens.
The good of the many really does outweigh the good of the few; however, it sucks to be one of the few.
I feel sorry for everyone involved.
Hopefully you can all move quickly past it and regain your joy in your companionship and in the music.
Respectfully,
--James
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by beardflute
Re: Evicted from Session
I know it’s done, and it sounds like you feel bad about it, Tyg, so I don’t mean to rub salt in the wound, but it seems like there are so many steps between “hinting” and an ultimatum like “You can’t play with us any more”. Like, taking the person to one side for a heart to heart etc. I know life is short and the time we have for music even more brief and you hate to waste it, but man that’s cold.
Doesn’t sound like he was an egg shaker, just not… good. I don’t know what the situation with him might be, dementia, perhaps, deafness? Nice compassionate use of the term "doofus", though. Try throwing in an occasional “retard” for variety.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Evicted from Session
In Tyg's defense, most times when a thread like this shows up, we all jump to conclusions, and tend to say "oh how cruel, why didn't you try this or that" and then find that this or that was tried to no avail.
Sometimes, people just are not suited to participate in groups together, whether it be a session or a musical group, and need to go their separate ways. No matter how well handled, it is tough, nasty business, even when in the long run it is the best for all parties involved. I still feel bad the Beatles broke up!
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Evicted from Session
Egotistical prats, I presume that you consider yourselves technical perfectionists, and, if you do, I can only say, pack it in and learn to play with compassion and soul. Pete Seegers accurate description of the great Woody Guthrie sums you lot up. "Any damned fool can be complicated, it takes a genius to make it simple" If youre only there to show off then F... off and die
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by strayaway
Re: Evicted from Session
Ouch, that's tough.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by BE
Re: Evicted from Session
Tolerance please and don't jump to conclusions
Maybe tygress has tried all sorts of strategies.
I look forward all week to our regular session and we are all of differing abilites and levels. Sometimes we have a cracking night other nights - well its a bit of a disappointment for all sorts of reasons. If someone was continually making it disappointing then it woudl have to be sorted out somehow in the most sensitive way so that if possible no one gets hurt. It sounds like tygress has agonised over this one. But maybe the bloke who left could be approached just in case he is upset. Not an easy one.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by gedpipes
Re: Evicted from Session
Interesting quote you used there Strayaway - "Any damned fool can be complicated, it takes a genius to make it simple". But tell me, what about a simple guy who is just trying to make something simple? Can that work too?
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Evicted from Session
There's no way we can judge the situation from our perspective on this message board. Unless we were actually there and familiar with the people in that session -- we can only guess. The issue is whether the person in question was spoiling the session or not. If the people there believe he was then we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.
No one likes to see something like this happen, but it isn't unheard of. We all want to participate in a session that's fun. If it stops being fun then something's wrong. Deciding what's wrong and what to do about it is up to the people in that session. It sounds like they tolerated it for a long time before taking action. Not taking any action might have led to the demise of their session.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Evicted from Session
Ptarmy, a person with your undeniable knowledge should not be posing such questions. You and other great thinkers of our time have long since reached the conclusion that simplicity IS genius. So, there you go, I've told you what you think......work that out
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by strayaway
Re: Evicted from Session
Can really one man be such a big problem. If all other in the session are playing well, why bother with one person playing bad? I can't understand that this will be sounding that terrible.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by TradLad
Re: Evicted from Session
Hmm maybe doofus was too harsh; I just think it's a funny term.
Phantom Button I agree with you; we aren't there but it's easy to imagine a situation where somebody needs to do something.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by glenn
Re: Evicted from Session
Silly me, I suppose I was rather foolish after all to give you the benefit of the doubt & expect a polite mannerly response to my question, given the foul language you used in your previous post!
Because of your foul language, this thread will no doubt be deleted!
There is absolutely no call for it here & no matter how foolish or ignorant you may think I am, foul language, & this may come as a shock to you, certainly does not make you look intelligent.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Evicted from Session
I got myself evicted from a band, and the other band broke up at the same time. It wasn't pleasant. It was largely my fault. I'm not a bad player, nor a totally insufferable person (at least some of the time), but it was a tumultuous time in my life, a screaming mid-life crisis on top of a chronic lack of confidence, compounded by a failure of character I'm still haunted by, and the other folks got tired of the drama. I don't blame them. Stuff happens, but it still hurts, and I'm still deeply embarassed by it.
Maybe the guy was truly incompetent, but I can tell you that it's a real blow to be evicted, even if for seemingly good and rational reasons. It's downright depressing. The only good news is that I've had extra time to lick my wounds, think a lot, and try to settle down again and keep my trap shut. But I've lost friendships, and strained others.
You may have a good reason to break up a band, throw someone out of a session, chew someone out, etc., but no one really wins in these situations. And you can never take back your words or your actions.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Evicted from Session
You're right Glenn I wasn't being serious and I'd commend the session leader for tackling the problem head-on. The alternative course of "no action" would probably have led to the demise of the session with the other musicians voting with their feet. Knowing any sessions I've been involved with, I'd imagine that this was a last resort as the majority of musicians do tend to be tolerant and try and integrate musicians of varying ability into the group - eg "what tunes do you know?" or "start something yourself".
It has been generally assumed that most session problems are down to bad musicians but just as much damage can be caused by the exceptionally talented ones who will insist on playing weird and wonderful complex tunes all night that no one else knows! Again a problem for the good session leader to gently explain the difference between a session and a performance!
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Bannerman
Re: Evicted from Session
Sorry Ptarm, it's all I know. We Gortnalee boys never had the chance of a good education. Too busy milking cows and cutting turf for that. Not for us the words of Robespierre and the strains of debussy, instead, the word of the lord and the dulcet tones of big tom and the mainliners. Do I get excused now?
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by strayaway
Re: Evicted from Session
Not to worry glenn, doofus isn’t really all that harsh, I think I just felt bad for the guy and over-reacted. Reading the other comments, some excellent points on both sides made. Sad situation all round.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Evicted from Session
Tyghress,
We had a similar situation at our session last year... The young man in question had fair playing ability, but he was over powering the rest of us in terms of volume- nobody could hear anyone but him, and he didn't give anyone else a chance to start tunes. Each musician had individual discussions with him trying to make suggestions and help him understand the flow of our session, but nothing really worked. Each of us really wanted to see it work out, but it was destroying the session, and in the end, he realized that he was doing more harm than good and stopped coming. We did discover, however, that the young man did better at another local session where there was more structure. Is there another session in your area? If so, maybe you could recommend it to him? He may be able to fit in better in a different session environment...
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Fiddlekit
Re: Evicted from Session
I have to be honest here and say that on occasion I have had to have harsh words with boyos who were, quite simply, bloody session wreckers.
Well intentioned but ultimately disastrous to the session and leading really good musicians, good and tolerant people, to walk away.
Faced with a choice of losing a great session or permitting a tube to continue wrecking I know what my decision will be.
I will always give someone the chance to learn/improve their behaviour, offer some quiet words to the wise, hint strongly, tell them straight to their face, ...........
But in then end??
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by breandan
Re: Evicted from Session
Tyghress evidently doesn't know whether or not there were some steps taken along the spectrum between hints and, "Your instrument isn't welcome, mate."
I think in a situation like this, some discreet communication between the anchor(s) and the regulars is warranted so that said regulars know their concerns are being dealt with. It also minimizes the shock of finding out that someone was asked to leave.
I sympathize with the leaders in that situation. I can think of several situations I've known or known of where someone was a session/club wrecker, and they simply would not hear that they were not a beloved and flawless member of the community. You can hint, ask, and tell, and they just don't get it, or can't, or don't choose to. When that happens, the leader has to bite the bullet or the session will peter out as more and more good musicians get tired of the garbage.
Just happened to me. I evicted myself because of situations that weren't being addressed in a session that I understand has been getting smaller and smaller.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Evicted from Session
Seems to me not enough info was given as to why this person had gotten to be "TOO MUCH." What does "not... competent at any tune" mean? If the session is a clique that's getting tight(er) and the person just couldn't cut it then perhaps the group should become a band and lose the openness of the session. If the person was unwilling to learn to meld with the whole, well, that's something else.... BTW, I'm a believer that some people can't sing, but my wife would disagree with me--and she's a singer ;^) So Tyg, what's the whole story? Just curious.
Peace...
--gw
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by GDub
Re: Evicted from Session
I've seen a guy kicked out of a session in Galway once. By his brother.
He, a lovely player when sober, was drunk beyond all competence, and didn't take it well.
An interesting session that was.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by RockyRoader
Re: Evicted from Session
I also have an acquaintance who would not be told that he doesn't have rhythm.
He bought himself a bodhran, got one lesson (from a "young scut of a lad" , cost him 30 euro!), and headed on down to a pub session in West Kerry.
I have nor record of the musicians' reactions, but the barman told him to leave, and not to bring the bodhran back there again!
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by RockyRoader
Re: Evicted from Session
Its not Jim C****n is is ??
ponytailed OAP armed and dangerous with a coalminers hard hat gob iron and an 11 string guitar
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Evicted from Session
I stopped going to a session some years ago because of one player who battered away at the bodhran without regard for time, tempo or volume. We tried dropping hints, we tried talking to him directly. He wouldn't go away, and as far as the landlord was concerned he had as much right to be in the pub as anyone else. So I stopped going, and a few weeks later I heard that the session broke up.
It's better to offend one person than lose the lot. And there's half a chance that he will take the hint, listen to himself and improve.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: Evicted from Session
There was an Irish bodhran player that showed up at our sesh a few times who would profess all sorts of Irish liniage but was himself a woafull player. The publican asked me one night, (when said bodhran player was there and had already left,) why I didn't ask him to stop, (like I had some other bad bodhran player once before.) I was taken back a bit; I realized I was intimidated by the guy's Irish credentials. Just as I was realizing this the publican (from Belfast) said to me, "What... is it because he's Irish?" And then he laughed. Lucky for me that was the last we ever saw of the guy.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Evicted from Session
“F... off and die” ?? - Strayway, oh you self righteous little….
Funny how tolerant people are of “session destroyers” when they read of them on a thread
I wonder how these people would actually react in a real life situations if someone threatened the eExistence of their session.
Why make the assumption that Tyghress session is full of tossers ?
I think that was just the easy self-righteous opinion.
People are generally good, lets start with that assumption, and I don’t suspect otherwise in this scenario…..why ? Because
despite finally biting the bullet of someone who was ruining
the session for everyone else Tyghress felt bad because there
is still a lonely person involved.
But it must have been a nightmare situation because despite
the distress Tyghress feels he/she is still relieved.
Put yourself in this situation:
There’s a guy at your session who is awful, plays out of tune,
bad rhythm etc
(“he really never was competent at any tune”)
and you’ve being putting up with that for a long time
(“he'd been part of the sessions ever since I knew.”)
You've been trying to work around it and get him to improve,
but he obviously wasn't bothered was more interested in his
enjoyment than the enjoyment of the session as a whole
(“Hints have been dropped to this fellow for a very long time,
but he never seemed to take them”)
It had got so bad that the session was in danger of folding
altogether (“Some just moved, but others left the session.”)
So for the good of the session the leader eventually and
obviously after a long time of tolerance asked him to stop
playing at the session, but that he was still welcome to come
along – to me that sounds like he was possibly leaving the
door open for a return.
Not been any good is no reason to ask someone to leave -
otherwise we'd all have to go !!
However this situation above doesn't sound like that scenario.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by BegF
Re: Evicted from Session
So . . . somewhere between a session of reasonable people driven demented by the catastrophically bad and loud playing of someone with the sensitivity of a bandsaw, and a bunch of musical snobs who don't want anyone there who doesn't meet the standards of perfection they consider they themselves achieve. A hint that is somewhere between 'I have trouble tuning my fiddle too - have you tried one of these electronic tuners' and pulling faces behind his back when he plays . . . There isn't enough information to decide about Tyghress 's session.
It's a hard one, because two people may see the same situation differently. It seems insensitive to expect the guy to continue coming to the session when he's been publically humiliated - maybe he's stomped off in a huff to some other session - or maybe he's been so hurt he isn't even playing any more - who knows?
But there was X, the flute player who after taking a breath continued at exactly the same note at which he'd left off before taking the breath, and Y, the only man ever to play eight and a half bar blues . A really bad player will ruin it for everyone, but if people are not beyond help, maybe we should help them?
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by c.g.
Re: Evicted from Session
Sorry to say, but it sounds heartless. Was he causing physical pain? Coming to the Sessions may have been the only enjoyment he had.
That's the only problem I've ever had with some of the sessions I've been involved in -- The Session Mafioso. When I was learning to play if there had been people in the session who had asked me to kindly leave my flutes at home, I would have been mortified. I can't think of a worse thing to say to someone.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by cloudbuster
Re: Evicted from Session
"Coming to the Sessions may have been the only enjoyment he had."
What about the enjoyment of the other musicians -- does that mean nothing?
"When I was learning to play if there had been people in the session who had asked me to kindly leave my flutes at home, I would have been mortified. I can't think of a worse thing to say to someone."
If it was a learning session they would have no reason to, but a common misconception people make is that any session is a learning session. Granted, there are sessions where this is acceptable and encouraged, but not all sessions are meant for people who are in the process of learning. It doesn't mean anything is wrong with sessions that are more advanced, or the people playing in it are snobs -- it just means they enjoy playing the music at a particular level. If someone decides that a session shouldn’t in any way be exclusive and they insist on making every session their own personal learning tool regardless of the desires of the people playing in it -- then they're asking for trouble.
Again, I don't know enough about the session that Tyghress described at the start of this thread, or if the circumstances are related to my point in this post, but the bottom line should always be to never make assumtions and use common sense and good manners when approaching any session you would like to participate in.
# Posted on September 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Evicted from Session
People who are just learning to play are one thing. The ones who take time to practice and improve over the years. Who may be bad to start with, like we all are, but who work at getting better. I've liked playing with people like that from the start, when I was in the same place and struggling. We all learned together and complimented each other on the gradual improvements we saw. None of us consider ourselves virtuosos. But we are competent.
I feel sorry for Tygress. I finally just refused to play with the guy if he turned up at an event.
But I don't think people are Session Mafioso when they expect fellow musicians to improve over time. I played for years with someone who had no sense of rhythm, insisted on playing on everything whether he knew it or not and when offered a tuner to tune properly said "oh, I tune by ear." and proceeded to prove time and again that he couldn't. I saw this person flat out chase people out of every session or jam I ever saw him in. People just got up and left. And he never did figure it out, even when told to his face (not by me). Oh, and he always brought at least three instruments. He couldn't play any of them. Often, he brought four.
So, some of you have a lot more patience than I do, I guess. Maybe I'm just getting cranky in my old age. Hey! Someone who can write a tune should write one called "The Cranky Reel" or something
# Posted on September 9th 2006 by soft black stars
Re: Evicted from Session
i have to say, it can be soul destroying to have a regular in a session that just doesn't add to it. when you set time aside to play tunes and you're in the company of other musicians who inspire and drive you, why should you carry the musician who doesn't have rhythm or whatever it is that makes him/her stand out? surely the majority rule..we play regular 'paid' sessions and the owner thereby makes us responsible for the output. we love sharing our music with anyone but facing two and a half hours when you hear that sound that screams 'i need more practise' is tough going sometimes. we always tolerate it but i have spent days trying to work out something to say that isn't offensive and always came up blank. if a drunk blasted his way into a conversation between friends, we wouldn't be a bit concerned if he was told to stop interrupting or even ejected from the bar( i've seen people cheer on occasion! ), and i think that like a drunk who's still responsible for his behaviour, musicians should be just as responsible for their output....
# Posted on September 9th 2006 by maryp
Re: Evicted from Session
we actually played one sunday afternoon, quiet bar and kevin crawford had dropped in so we were all dying for the tune. after about an hour this fella came in with a guitar and sat in the middle of the floor and faced away from the session and if that guitar was a donkey. he'd have done time for abuse!! it was AWFUL!! i was just about to put away my instrument but kevin said 'keep playing-if we stop he's won'..we kept going but we were doing battle not playing and it was horrible...so i say, when it becomes intolerable..(really bad)..then tell them that what they're doing doesn't fit in and to get a round in on their way out!!
# Posted on September 9th 2006 by maryp
Re: Evicted from Session
You should have asked KC to play the guitar - he's good.
# Posted on September 9th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Evicted from Session
A dear friend of mine, a world-renowned musician, once recounted a story of playing with Joe Cooley in San Francisco. An elderly man joined in, not particularly good, and sort of scratched away on his fiddle. During a break, one of the musicians made a comment to Joe about the quality of the man's music, suggesting that he shouldn't be playing with people of "their" caliber.
To which that great musician replied, "Sure isn't he doin' the best he can?"
# Posted on September 9th 2006 by Ceolagusrince
Re: Evicted from Session
Cute story, but obviously the errant musician wasn't noticed by Joe. A fiddle can't compete with the sound of a powerful accordion player, but the story might have a different ending if the fiddler was putting Joe himself off the tune. The musician described at the start of this thread wasn't just under caliber for the session -- he was putting people off. Big difference.
# Posted on September 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Evicted from Session
Well The PB, the difference is not in the person who was put off, but rather in the others, those who are responsible for allowing themselves to be put off and for their own exclusive attitudes. Obviously they have not the moral fibre of Joe Cooley to accept "the best he can" as being good enough. Culture, surely, is not about being good enough or not? Its about doing and being. Therefore, if a session is exclusive, it isn't cultural, it isn't about the handing down of traditional music, its just plain egotistical and elitist. The session members should wear the responsibility of their own moral shortcomings. Its their problem.
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Evicted from Session
Nobody said the session was exclusive -- that's how someone who might be wrecking it might see it. (Read what I said.) I've seen musicians of Cooly's stature struggle with the sort of thing tyghress described at the top. They have either tried to ignore it, left the session, or tried to do something about it. The bottom line is that they were bothered. The fact is that there are session wreckers out there; what to do about it is a topic on this thread.
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Evicted from Session
PB: "not all sessions are meant for people who are in the process of learning"
Aren't we all in the process of learning?
Have you really nothing more to learn from anyone?
What is that if not exclusive?
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Evicted from Session
It's only 'exclusive' according to your spin for the point I was making. By Learning I meant ‘learning the basics.’ If someone is just learning to play at all and they insist on using the session as their own private learning tool -- and it's interfering and possibly spoiling the session -- their time might be better spent at home. Until they can flow with the session it's pointless and rude to try to play before you’re ready. (Unless it's a 'learning session.')
Dow, I find your comments to be unnecessarily antagonistic. Of course I'm still learning, I wasn't saying anything remotely related to that. One of the things that makes ITM so valuable is that people continue learning the whole time they're involved. Why you need to jump to preposterous extremes to make your point is beyond me.
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Evicted from Session
PB: "A common misconception people make is that any session is a learning session. Granted, there are sessions where this is acceptable and encouraged, but not all sessions are meant for people who are in the process of learning".
PB: "Of course I'm still learning"
So in that case your Plough session is one of these so-called "learning sessions", then?
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Evicted from Session
Reminds me of a friend who sat in on a old timey session bringing in his HD. After a short break everybody started up again and my friend noticed he was way out of tune. He went out and carefully tuned, listening to the music (didn't own a tuner at the time). He returned to play about the time everybody went on break. When they returned he found he was again way out of tune. Seemed as though they were tuning a quarter note off just to make him leave.
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by jrathbun
Re: Evicted from Session
Thanks for the input, folks. I've written two responses, but for some reason they are disappearing when I hit 'post'. Any suggestions on why?
Tyg
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by Tyghress
Re: Evicted from Session
Let's see if its a matter of length...here's part I
Thank you all for your input on this situation. I posted quite a long response yesterday, but it appears to have gone astray. Here is a synopsis:
The fellow is middling elderly, which is probably why so many of us tolerated him with good grace for a long time. He's quite loud on his button accordion, plays virtually two notes (in and out) and can manage a recognizable Out on the Ocean -- but nothing else. I am not exaggerating when I say its like sitting next to a donkey -- two loud notes. Over the years he's gotten louder, and more belligerant which is why most of us avoid him rather than suggest, hint, discuss, etc. He is very belligerant, and insists that he knows what he's doing, knows all the tunes, has a right to play just as he's doing.
The sessions I know him from are of two kinds. The first is a very rough, very unstructured, many beginners and mostly intermediate players with one or two solid players chivvying us along (I consider myself to be intermediate, but occassionally I need to sit in as a 'solid player'). This session is falling apart *partly* due to this fellow, who is too often called 'Two Note Bob'. It is next to impossible to ignore his noise in this situation, and he drags other people off the music. In a situation where you're trying to teach people to listen to each other we also have to teach how to ignore. It is unlikely that TNB will ever be asked or told to leave this session, though one of his age-group has taken him aside and tried to talk with him.
(lets see if this posts....if so I'll continue in another)
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by Tyghress
Re: Evicted from Session
(okay, that worked...Part II)
An anecdote from one of these sessions: two mando players in this session had worked together on a tune set and asked to do them as a duet. TNB refused to sit out and insisted on playing. Three times the mando players stopped and asked him to quit while they did this as a duet. The rest of us pointed out that no one else was playing. He got belligerant and kept joining them until they quit (and left the session and went to the bar).
The other session is also open, but generally of a much higher caliber player and music. The lead players are miked (its in a bar that can get quite noisy) and they are led by a very good professional. If you are not sitting in one of the seats near TNB, you can ignore him under some circumstances, but he tends to come to these sessions late, elbow his way in as far as he can, and honk away whether or not he's ever heard the tune. (He claims that he can pick tunes up by ear after one repetition).
People move or leave the session when he sits down. Many of us have complained to the leader about him, and up until now he's agreed that TNB is a problem, but didn't know what to do about it.
An anecdote from this session: Tommy Peoples was sitting in, and played a few tunes solo.....except for TNB who said after that he was providing backup harmony.
This session also has spin off sessions that are quite a bit more intimate. They usually occur after a performance by top quality musicians over from Ireland. The final straw seems to have come at one of these sessions. I wasn't there, but heard from three people (including the leader of the session) what happened. TNB joined this session and was bad enough, and belligerant enough that the guests of honor declined to play and went to the bar instead.
(yeah, there is a part III coming)
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by Tyghress
Re: Evicted from Session
(last part...I promise)
I am delighted that he is no longer playing. I'm distressed that it took a direct confrontation to acheive it. I would be very happy if he came to listen and talk, but not play. I can't think of a nice way, a gentle way, a constructive way that wasn't tried. Today is the first session of the season so we'll see if he shows up there.
How much is a session group supposed to tolerate when someone cannot be taught session social skills? We have rank beginners who understand that you don't play if you don't know the tune. We have tone deaf old-timers who know that if they must play, play gently. We have showboats who have learned that it isn't a matter of speed all the time (okay, we DO have one person who insists that 'he who gets to the end of the tune first wins' and maintains that attitude with a grin. He is the second leg on the stool of reasons why I avoid this session as much as possible. The third leg is the physical set up of the 'session' that precludes people listening to each other).
I hope I've clarified the situation. This isn't a case of a rarefied session of snobs (they let me play!). This isn't a situation where evicting the guy was the first or second or third option. No, its not 'fair' to him, and it may well be the only thing he has socially (its not, he dances too, but that group is also not happy with him) but I don't practice, study and go to session in order to be socially charitable. I go for the music. If the music isn't worth it, why go?
God that sounds horrid. I'm not a horrid person. Please note that I didn't insist that he be evicted; I ceased going myself unless I was asked particularly to go (usually because the leaders were away and they were desperate for melody players). I certainly benefit from TNB not being there, I can't deny that.
We're taught to be charitable to the infirm -- but does that mean we must be so 100% of the time? Do the musically infirm have the right to impose themselves ALL the time? MOST of the time? Obviously this whole thing isn't sitting well with me, but it must be awful for the people who actually lead a session to figure out how to manage it for the greatest good.
Again, I thank you all for your discussion. Even the heated part.
Tyg
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by Tyghress
Re: Evicted from Session
Tommy Peoples sat in on your session? I would have been picking my jaw up off the floor and had myself remembering to breathe. My goodness. I wonder what he thought about Two Note Bob!
Tyghress, I'm not a session expert or anything, but just from a social perspective, it sounds like everyone really tried to handle that guy in the kindest way possible. He really wasn't being considerate of all of you with the way he played over everyone.
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Evicted from Session
Tyghress, thanks for explaining. After reading through your posts, I'm just sorry that this wasn't dealt with sooner. It sounds like this guy had every chance to turn in around. I also think he was treated with a whole lot more patience than he actually deserved.
What I also resent about this type of situation is you have a infirm or simply clueless person putting a lot of good people through a lot of grief, e.g., in figuring out how to handle the situation and its inevitable ramifications. I saw this happen with an SF Bay Area fiddle club. There was one incident when I was hosting a meeting where if I'd done the right thing, I'd have insisted she leave. The person in question had been evicted from pretty much every folk group, dance class, community chorus around. Yes, her situation is pitiable, and the person in question milked her "old and infirm" status for all it was worth. But the situations she created were worse, and there was no sign of a change. The then-officers agonized about asking her to leave. The upshot was that she was given one more chance, and the problems continued until her death.
If guests of honor had retired to the bar on my account, I'd never show my face in that establishment or in that general group of people again. I'd be sufficiently mortified, I think, to never even play again! If that's not powerful information, I really don't know what is. (Lightning striking the offending player? Is that what it would take?)
Tyrghress, let it go. The session leader and other participants did all they could, and IMO considerably more than they should have.
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Evicted from Session
Tyghress, don't worry about it. This guy isn't just an incompetant musician, he's an incompetant human being.
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by c.g.
Re: Evicted from Session
His problem may be medical. You say he is "middling elderly." People in the early stages of Alzheimers often behave in the way you describe. Sad, but not your fault, Tygh.
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Evicted from Session
I would hate to be a member of hs family, I had a grandfather that was like that, except he was an old beligerent 'looking for a fight' alcoholic. Look at it this way, if handguns were legal in this country, someone from the family woud have been shot by him at some point.
At the end of the day, someone disruptive and detrimental to the session,encouragement and confidence of other players has to be removed. For the universal good. To start with, it looked like another arrogant semi-professional player, but when you described in detail what was going on. Then yes, I understand and support the decision.
# Posted on September 10th 2006 by Joze
Re: Evicted from Session
Thanks for filling in the details, Tyghress.
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Evicted from Session
Every time I think about attending another Session, I think of this post, two years after it was originally posted, and reconsider and do not go.
It saddens me. Surely the love of the music would be enough to enjoy that one person not particularly talented would not negate any amount of pleasure derived.
# Posted on June 4th 2008 by cloudbuster