I've been listening to Kevin Burke's playing of Farewell to Erin. I'm using Transcribe! to slow him down to anywhere between 35% and 55%. Sometimes his eighth-notes are straight and sometimes they swing pretty hard. He seems to travel quite a bit between these two extremes. When the others join him, it almost sounds like their degree of swing fluctuates as a group. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Is this common? I'm used to picking a degree of swing and sticking with it throughout the performance of a tune.
I suspect that if you are, "used to picking a degree of swing and sticking with it throughout the tune", you have been listening too much to you computer playing tunes and not real people. I'd say ditch the computer and just feel for it.
People playing together often push and pull in subtle ways with their swing. It's about the pulse of a tune. Not the speed or the rythmn. There is a dynamic effect that each player has on each other when they are all listening hard. Measuring it with a machine is, quite franky, pointless
There are three issues here. One is using a computer to analyze a recording, the second is what the analysis reveals, and the third is what it means. A fourth might be whether to incorporate that into one's playing, and how much.
I use Transcribe! to slow down tunes to figure out notes and ornamentation. It's very useful. As a perennial student of this music, I may play the ornaments as recorded for a while, and then try to forget about them and let them happen where it feels best.
Variation of "degree of swing" thoughout a tune has nothing to do with using a machine to analyze a recording. That's called interpretation, which is based on emotion, which changes constantly. A musician may play a tune straight through the first time, and then swing it a little or a lot depending on the musician's mood, his listeners, or even if there are dancers. And it can and does change. People get a little bored, and they may change the tune up a bit to keep their interest and that of their listeners. So, perhaps the lesson is to experiment with degrees of swing, see what feels best at any given moment, and play what you feel. I sometimes play tunes slow and deliberately if I want to express something a bit serious and/or sad, and sometimes I'll just try to swing the hell out of it in a moment of joy. That's the beauty to me of Celtic trad: it's so expressive in so many ways.
The real issue is not the use of a computer per say, but the relative merits of wanting to deconstruct the music into such minutia that it looses all sense of itself as a whole.
OK so it is merely a sum of its parts, so theoretically it can be faithfully reproduced by slavishly deconstructing, learning and reconstructing. But is reproduction the goal here? I admit that, for a learner, reproduction can be a useful tool for practising. I remember my brother getting a book of all of Charlie Parker's solos written out. He'd sit with it and site read it for hours on end. But what becomes of the notes in such circumstances? It's not music, that's for sure. Can you learn to improvise like Charlie Parker by doing these exercises? Not a chance.
And the same is true with diddley music. Let's take the humble roll for example. Does slowing it down help to play rolls. Nope. You have to hear its percussion in context and at live speed to understand it. It's no good talking about and analysing the timings of the five notes. You have to just be able to feel it as the three percussion beets it actually is. And you have to be able to cross refer to the first time through you played that bit of the tune and the same bits of the tune that are coming up in order to make the decision exactly where to put the roll, slow roll, short roll, slightly delayed snappy roll two rolls back to back, no roll etc etc. And all this is done on the fly. And all should be done without your conscious overanalysing cognitive brain getting in the way.
I think varying the degree or swing gives a tune more life, you know that certain something . . . but its got to be done with taste and feeling, kind of like chord substitutions, it can be overdone.
I tend to swing more than I should, when left to my own devices, but as an accompanist, I try to adjust to what the melody folks are doing. Some tunes sound better swung, some sound better straight. Hornpipes, by definition, should be pretty swingy, less so jigs and reels.
And remember, it don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing!
I think that this is a very subjective thing. Eventually one may be able to do all this "without your conscious overanalysing cognitive brain getting in the way"...but we all have to START somewhere!
When first learning, I had to have my teacher slow down rolls so I could see what her fingers were doing on the flute. Eventually my fingers got the "memory" in them. But the technical things are sometimes easier to learn if slowed. As for "swing", of course it is a matter of "feeling" the tune, but again we all learn differently.
Some of us "count", some don't. For some, music is more "mathematical" than others. My teacher is obsessed with where the breaths go...whereas, when I was taking school in Ireland with the "old wans"...they had NO impulse to go that direction, and generally, just breathed when they needed to!
All week at one school I was with a young piper/flute player who used "abc's" to write the tunes for us. I came from a classical tradition and could NOT play this way. It made me feel like an idiot. I can read music, but not "abc's"...but all the young Irish players transitioning from whistle to flute had been taught "abc's", so they learned this way.
I had a breakthrough when we had a guest teacher the last two days...Colm O'Donell, who simply said "If you can sing it you can play it"...and I was finally in heaven. He would just lilt the tune to us and we would repeat it...I am a great "by ear" learner. But all the youngsters were LOST.
Sorry for the length...but I think people can sometimes be intolerant and even imperious about how others can learn. And if it takes listening in a slowed down fashion to try to understand how others "feel" the tune, or understand the various ways to "swing"...why not? Baby steps...or as they say in baseball..."Two hands while learning!" Cheers!
Coming back to Stephen's original topic, varying the degree of swing within a tune is just another form of ornamentation, I think. The most obvious example would be lengthening the first note of a group of three notes in a jig. I would typically do this where I may have used a roll or something on a previous pass through that part of the tune. If I lengthened the first note of every group of three then I would be playing in a rhythm which I think of as more Scots than Irish - but in both traditions, varying it occasionally is just another form of expression.
The same thing can be applied to reels, hornpipes, etc. I recall that many years ago I was amazed to discover that all this was going on. I think as a beginner, and especially if you can read music and know how reel or hornpipe rhythms usually look on paper, your brain filters this out. You simply hear what you expect to hear. In my case, seeing some really accurate transcriptions of what traditional players were really doing opened my ears and my brain to the possibility that I could use this, too.
However, beginners don't really need to be thinking about this, they probably need to be learning to keep their rhythm regular and danceable. When they can do that without thinking about it then they are ready to think about the little nuances.
As for a group of players all managing to do the same thing at the same time, I'd say it's rare, but wonderful when it happens. It usually comes from good listeners who have played together for quite a long time.
Can you remind me which Kevin Burke recording this is on so I can check it out?
I'm with Dow and 'c', I think. If the only way I've ever heard or played a particular hornpipe is with a pronounced swing, then I think it's appropriate to notate it. If somebody's first exposure to the tune is playing it from Jeremy's jukebox, I'd want them to hear it with the swing. It would be a more accurate representation of the tune, as I know it, than straight rhythm.
As for the subtleties of swing in something like a fast reel, I agree that it's unnotatable and should be written straight.
Hornpipes with the swing the way the midi jukebox does sounds way too exaggerated. We are talking about Irish music here, and I very rarely if ever hear Irish players using anywhere near that amount of swing... if at all. The only place I hear that sort of swing on hornpipes is by local or non-Irish players. Does anyone have examples of recordings by Irish players where that amount of swing is used? I'd be willing to wager that the very subtle swinging that’s impossible to notate, or the swing-less hornpipe, is predominate.
Yes, Americans have been fond of the solid triplet swing (jazz/ragtime swing) for a long time and when we convert to The Music, it can take us a while to understand the subtleties of the area between straight rhythm and hard swing. But I have heard a few Irish-born folks play hornpipes with a triplet swing. It's not very common, but it does happen. I have no idea if it's an American influence or if the original ragtime swing was an Irish influence.
On The Iron Man album, Tommy Peoples plays Kitty O'Shea (I think it is) with a pronounced swing, but there are so many real triplets and other variations that you don't hear long stretches of solid swing.
(Arty) McGlynn's Fancy is full of solidly swinging tunes. Does guitar count?
Brian Conway is not Irish born, but he's certainly in the tradition and I've heard him play a hornpipe with a triplet swing. I don't think he's recorded it, though.
But, really, does it matter if heavy swinging is mainly an American thing? It's still part of The Music.
For an example of swing in Irish music, try "The Boston Edge" a recent recording of Joe Derrane, Seamus Connolly and John McGann. Joe set the pace, and in the liner notes said that he swung a lot of the tunes the way he did in the old days in the Boston dance halls, very much an American jazz influence.
Bob himself wrote: "But, really, does it matter if heavy swinging is mainly an American thing? It's still part of The Music"
True... but my point is that the 'triplet swing' is less common by far among Irish born players. I've been taking my cues from the Irish players mostly, but if the 'triplet swing' is an Irish American style -- that's just as valid. It just depends on what style you seek to play.
As for the music in the tune section, I still think the swing should be left out so that the player is free to interpret it as they wish.
Varying Degree of Swing
Varying Degree of Swing
I've been listening to Kevin Burke's playing of Farewell to Erin. I'm using Transcribe! to slow him down to anywhere between 35% and 55%. Sometimes his eighth-notes are straight and sometimes they swing pretty hard. He seems to travel quite a bit between these two extremes. When the others join him, it almost sounds like their degree of swing fluctuates as a group. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Is this common? I'm used to picking a degree of swing and sticking with it throughout the performance of a tune.
# Posted on August 17th 2006 by stephenseifert
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
I suspect that if you are, "used to picking a degree of swing and sticking with it throughout the tune", you have been listening too much to you computer playing tunes and not real people. I'd say ditch the computer and just feel for it.
People playing together often push and pull in subtle ways with their swing. It's about the pulse of a tune. Not the speed or the rythmn. There is a dynamic effect that each player has on each other when they are all listening hard. Measuring it with a machine is, quite franky, pointless
# Posted on August 17th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
I agree totally and unconditionally with mmichael
Enjoy the recording for what it is.
Play the tune your own way.
# Posted on August 17th 2006 by Bren
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
Anyway, swing is unnotatable - at any rate in a readable format that makes sense.
# Posted on August 17th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
There are three issues here. One is using a computer to analyze a recording, the second is what the analysis reveals, and the third is what it means. A fourth might be whether to incorporate that into one's playing, and how much.
I use Transcribe! to slow down tunes to figure out notes and ornamentation. It's very useful. As a perennial student of this music, I may play the ornaments as recorded for a while, and then try to forget about them and let them happen where it feels best.
Variation of "degree of swing" thoughout a tune has nothing to do with using a machine to analyze a recording. That's called interpretation, which is based on emotion, which changes constantly. A musician may play a tune straight through the first time, and then swing it a little or a lot depending on the musician's mood, his listeners, or even if there are dancers. And it can and does change. People get a little bored, and they may change the tune up a bit to keep their interest and that of their listeners. So, perhaps the lesson is to experiment with degrees of swing, see what feels best at any given moment, and play what you feel. I sometimes play tunes slow and deliberately if I want to express something a bit serious and/or sad, and sometimes I'll just try to swing the hell out of it in a moment of joy. That's the beauty to me of Celtic trad: it's so expressive in so many ways.
# Posted on August 17th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
The real issue is not the use of a computer per say, but the relative merits of wanting to deconstruct the music into such minutia that it looses all sense of itself as a whole.
OK so it is merely a sum of its parts, so theoretically it can be faithfully reproduced by slavishly deconstructing, learning and reconstructing. But is reproduction the goal here? I admit that, for a learner, reproduction can be a useful tool for practising. I remember my brother getting a book of all of Charlie Parker's solos written out. He'd sit with it and site read it for hours on end. But what becomes of the notes in such circumstances? It's not music, that's for sure. Can you learn to improvise like Charlie Parker by doing these exercises? Not a chance.
And the same is true with diddley music. Let's take the humble roll for example. Does slowing it down help to play rolls. Nope. You have to hear its percussion in context and at live speed to understand it. It's no good talking about and analysing the timings of the five notes. You have to just be able to feel it as the three percussion beets it actually is. And you have to be able to cross refer to the first time through you played that bit of the tune and the same bits of the tune that are coming up in order to make the decision exactly where to put the roll, slow roll, short roll, slightly delayed snappy roll two rolls back to back, no roll etc etc. And all this is done on the fly. And all should be done without your conscious overanalysing cognitive brain getting in the way.
# Posted on August 17th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
I think varying the degree or swing gives a tune more life, you know that certain something . . . but its got to be done with taste and feeling, kind of like chord substitutions, it can be overdone.
# Posted on August 17th 2006 by stoner420
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
I tend to swing more than I should, when left to my own devices, but as an accompanist, I try to adjust to what the melody folks are doing. Some tunes sound better swung, some sound better straight. Hornpipes, by definition, should be pretty swingy, less so jigs and reels.
And remember, it don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing!
# Posted on August 17th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
I think that this is a very subjective thing. Eventually one may be able to do all this "without your conscious overanalysing cognitive brain getting in the way"...but we all have to START somewhere!
When first learning, I had to have my teacher slow down rolls so I could see what her fingers were doing on the flute. Eventually my fingers got the "memory" in them. But the technical things are sometimes easier to learn if slowed. As for "swing", of course it is a matter of "feeling" the tune, but again we all learn differently.
Some of us "count", some don't. For some, music is more "mathematical" than others. My teacher is obsessed with where the breaths go...whereas, when I was taking school in Ireland with the "old wans"...they had NO impulse to go that direction, and generally, just breathed when they needed to!
All week at one school I was with a young piper/flute player who used "abc's" to write the tunes for us. I came from a classical tradition and could NOT play this way. It made me feel like an idiot. I can read music, but not "abc's"...but all the young Irish players transitioning from whistle to flute had been taught "abc's", so they learned this way.
I had a breakthrough when we had a guest teacher the last two days...Colm O'Donell, who simply said "If you can sing it you can play it"...and I was finally in heaven. He would just lilt the tune to us and we would repeat it...I am a great "by ear" learner. But all the youngsters were LOST.
Sorry for the length...but I think people can sometimes be intolerant and even imperious about how others can learn. And if it takes listening in a slowed down fashion to try to understand how others "feel" the tune, or understand the various ways to "swing"...why not? Baby steps...or as they say in baseball..."Two hands while learning!" Cheers!
# Posted on August 17th 2006 by yekdeli
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
Very much agree, the technologial ability to slow down the actual phrases of a master musician via computer software is an incredible tool.
# Posted on August 18th 2006 by stoner420
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
Coming back to Stephen's original topic, varying the degree of swing within a tune is just another form of ornamentation, I think. The most obvious example would be lengthening the first note of a group of three notes in a jig. I would typically do this where I may have used a roll or something on a previous pass through that part of the tune. If I lengthened the first note of every group of three then I would be playing in a rhythm which I think of as more Scots than Irish - but in both traditions, varying it occasionally is just another form of expression.
The same thing can be applied to reels, hornpipes, etc. I recall that many years ago I was amazed to discover that all this was going on. I think as a beginner, and especially if you can read music and know how reel or hornpipe rhythms usually look on paper, your brain filters this out. You simply hear what you expect to hear. In my case, seeing some really accurate transcriptions of what traditional players were really doing opened my ears and my brain to the possibility that I could use this, too.
However, beginners don't really need to be thinking about this, they probably need to be learning to keep their rhythm regular and danceable. When they can do that without thinking about it then they are ready to think about the little nuances.
As for a group of players all managing to do the same thing at the same time, I'd say it's rare, but wonderful when it happens. It usually comes from good listeners who have played together for quite a long time.
Can you remind me which Kevin Burke recording this is on so I can check it out?
# Posted on August 18th 2006 by kris
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
"keep their rhythm regular and danceable" Couldn't have said it better, that is the "bottom line."
# Posted on August 18th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
kris asked:
> which Kevin Burke recording
It's on <i>Old Hag You Have Killed Me</i> - Tell me what you hear. THANKS!
# Posted on August 18th 2006 by stephenseifert
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
lazyhound wrote: "Anyway, swing is unnotatable - at any rate in a readable format that makes sense."
Could you please explain this to Dow, ceolachan, and everyone else who insists on notating swing in the tunes section? Cheers.
# Posted on August 18th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
I'm with Dow and 'c', I think. If the only way I've ever heard or played a particular hornpipe is with a pronounced swing, then I think it's appropriate to notate it. If somebody's first exposure to the tune is playing it from Jeremy's jukebox, I'd want them to hear it with the swing. It would be a more accurate representation of the tune, as I know it, than straight rhythm.
As for the subtleties of swing in something like a fast reel, I agree that it's unnotatable and should be written straight.
# Posted on August 18th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
Hornpipes with the swing the way the midi jukebox does sounds way too exaggerated. We are talking about Irish music here, and I very rarely if ever hear Irish players using anywhere near that amount of swing... if at all. The only place I hear that sort of swing on hornpipes is by local or non-Irish players. Does anyone have examples of recordings by Irish players where that amount of swing is used? I'd be willing to wager that the very subtle swinging that’s impossible to notate, or the swing-less hornpipe, is predominate.
# Posted on August 19th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
Yes, Americans have been fond of the solid triplet swing (jazz/ragtime swing) for a long time and when we convert to The Music, it can take us a while to understand the subtleties of the area between straight rhythm and hard swing. But I have heard a few Irish-born folks play hornpipes with a triplet swing. It's not very common, but it does happen. I have no idea if it's an American influence or if the original ragtime swing was an Irish influence.
On The Iron Man album, Tommy Peoples plays Kitty O'Shea (I think it is) with a pronounced swing, but there are so many real triplets and other variations that you don't hear long stretches of solid swing.
(Arty) McGlynn's Fancy is full of solidly swinging tunes. Does guitar count?
Brian Conway is not Irish born, but he's certainly in the tradition and I've heard him play a hornpipe with a triplet swing. I don't think he's recorded it, though.
But, really, does it matter if heavy swinging is mainly an American thing? It's still part of The Music.
# Posted on August 19th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
For an example of swing in Irish music, try "The Boston Edge" a recent recording of Joe Derrane, Seamus Connolly and John McGann. Joe set the pace, and in the liner notes said that he swung a lot of the tunes the way he did in the old days in the Boston dance halls, very much an American jazz influence.
# Posted on August 20th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
How d'you do reverse swing?
# Posted on August 21st 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Varying Degree of Swing
Bob himself wrote: "But, really, does it matter if heavy swinging is mainly an American thing? It's still part of The Music"
True... but my point is that the 'triplet swing' is less common by far among Irish born players. I've been taking my cues from the Irish players mostly, but if the 'triplet swing' is an Irish American style -- that's just as valid. It just depends on what style you seek to play.
As for the music in the tune section, I still think the swing should be left out so that the player is free to interpret it as they wish.
# Posted on August 21st 2006 by Phantom Button