This is a question to any fiddler, but particularly to those playing in the Sligo style, and more especially to Will (after all, he's probably as big a fan of Kevin Burke as I am!).
The past year I have trained myself to use less and less bow, to get better timing and rhythm at higher speeds. I found out, that when I take only a slightly longer pause between up and down bow (and vice versa) it gives me the opportunity to really 'lean on it', give the firm accent (much pressure and very little bow) in an otherwise flowing style. This works especially fine in the off beats of a reel (now there 's Kevin Burke).
However, I find it hard to keep this feel and pleasing sound when speeding up to the faster session speeds. The notes still come out, but the dance rhythm is 'fading'.
Does my description of executing this 'leaning on it' make sense? Any suggestions to keep the swing going at higher speeds?
I've been told that according to proper violin technique, You shouldn't lean on the bow at all. You get any extra volume you need by simply drawing the bow faster.
Of course that is not quite the case with diddly music. Accenting the off beats in a reel with a sharp down bow is a well established style. Try to think of this as an acceleration rather than more preasure. It should be a better tone
I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you are using less and less bow. Do you mean less of the length of the bow? Less preasure? Less changing direction?
Hello Henk,
This would be *soooo much easier* to talk about--and demonstrate to each other--in person! But I think you're headed down the right track, and I'll try to offer what little insight I might have on this.
It sounds like you're well on your way to getting Burke's trademark pulse by "leaning" on the bow at just the right time to accent those off beats. That's precisely how Burke does it, pushing the bow into the strings to use soft-to-heavy dynamics to "swell" the sound onto the accented note. (You can also create a lot of "pop" by leaning on the bow and abruptly letting up as you slur onto the next note. Burke uses that approach a lot on polkas and on some reels.)
As for keeping the pulse going at higher speeds, my advice would be to keep the bow hair weighted onto the string and moving, rather than taking a "pause" as you described it above. I think that miniscule pause you're hearing in Burke's playing comes from a release of pressure on the bow, but (and this is vitally important) *the bow keeps moving* and stays in contact with the string. In other words, he varies his bow pressure--not speed or actual movement--to emphasize certain notes. If you think of keeping the bow moving, rather than pausing, I think you'll find this all much easier to do at faster speeds because the bowing is more fluid.
That said, Burke also likes to periodically come off the strings all together or clearly pause (stop the bow) to add a more percusive element to his otherwise flowing style. But he mixes these accents in rather sparingly (and to my ear very tastefully).
Another aspect of Burke's bowing that I've noticed, particularly in his more recent playing, is that he tends to lean on the bow more often on up bows, so those accented off beats quite often happen during up bows. I asked him once to play Maudabawn Chapel just so I could follow his bow direction, and in the A Part at least, most of the accents came on up bows, often slurred across from the previous beat in the previous bar. Lots of players slur across the beat like this, but Burke really has it down--he can slur three or more notes on a single up bow and isolate and accent any one of them with perfect timing simply by leaning on the hair at just the right moment. Plus he mixes it up with crisp, punchy down-bows just to keep us on our toes.
A good tune to work on for all of this is Burke's version of the Old Torn Petticoat, the reel that he usually plays after the Old Torn Petticoat jig. It's on several of his albums, and most of his versions are very similar. Slow it down and listen to how he slurs across the beat and across strings to create a sense of flow, all the while using sublte bow pressure to keep the beat going.
Hope this helps. If I can wrangle some spare time, I'll post Old Torn Petticoat on this thread with some bowing possibilities. But now work beckons.....
Well, I have to disagree with Michael on this one, at least in the context of Burke's fiddling. Kevin sat me down once and played a polka he calls the Britches Full of Stitches, and made a point of showing how he gets the pop and pulse by pressing and releasing the hairs against the string. In fact, he emphasized keeping the bow speed steady.
Henk, the Old Torn Petticoat gives a great example of Burke slurring across strings and putting a beat on one note, all on a single bow. I'll try to post the abcs here soon.
Not to take away anything from Mr. Burke (I love his playing), but if you're studing a Clare/Sligo style, I'm not sure if Kevin Burke is the guy to listen to. Not that playing like Kevin Burke would be a bad thing, but I believe his playing has moved far away from a regional style.
Henk Box, what other players are you listening to?
I do have to back up Will by saying that shorter bow strokes with pressure is the ticket, though we've all seen the opposite in some great players! I'm afraid I am falling into the same 'Pause' trap that Will describes. I'll have to try to simply release pressure instead of stopping. 'Sounds' right.
Will
I agree with you, I did say that pressing harder IS the case with diddly music. You get that slight rasp on the attack that we all love and classical players cringe at.
I think your descriptions of the way Kevin Burke plays are terrific. When I think about it, I do alot of it without thinking. Eileen Ivers does alot of it too but with much less subtlety than Kevin Burke. Maybe its easier to understand what's going on if you listen to Eileen Ivers, Then tone it down a bit
It maybe worth pointing out that KB's bowing style requires a decent bow. If you've got a cheep one, you've no chance.
Shorter bow stokes with more pressure!? That is one way to approach the music. I firmly believe that you miss out of the majority of the beauty from your instrument by restricting bow use to a few inches up to a foot. You cheat yourself out of all the other wonderful bow techniques. If your only goal is to "Get Kevin's" (not you C-) style of playing down, go for it.
Better yet - learn how to play the "leans" well and then go back and learn some other techniques with the longer bow strokes. If you are comfortable with the entire bow, then playing and accenting short bow strokes is just a tool in the toolchest.
You got that right about the good bow. So many times a cheaper bow will dictate how music is to be played. With a good bow - you are the boss. Funny how it takes a little while to adjust to the freedom.
Of course, people could recommend that the learning Irish-Trad player should only use very long, silky-smooth bow strokes constantly, taking care to use the entire bow at every oportunity, and finally add grotesqe amounts of vibrato to every single note until the instrument screams for mercy. Surely you didn't want someone to write that did you Mark?
The short/pressure bow approach shouldn't be the only tool in the toolbox, but if it's the appropriate tool for the job it makes sense to use it. Like I've said above, several top trad-players break this 'rule' in the most glorious and awesome ways. For me, the short/pressure bow is essential to capture that slight raspyness that Michael mentions above.
Okay, here's a pretty close transcription of Burke's setting on his Promenade album. I also posted it in the comments section to this tune in our archives here. Again, when I can find more time, I'll add some thoughts about bowing.
T: The Old Torn Petticoat
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
D: Kevin Burke and Micheal O Domhnaill - Promenade
C: Traditional
N: This version is taken from the above album, Side A, Track 3. Burke plays the same set—with significant bowing differences—on a more recent cd, Kevin Burke – In Concert. The Promenade version is more representative of his swooping, flowing style. The notation here begins after the bridge Burke plays to get from the previous tune and ends as Burke starts in for the second time around the tune.
K: A dorian
ed|cdBc AE{G}ED|G2 [BG]G DG[BG]G|[cE]E[BE]E AE{G}ED|GABG A2 AB|
|(3ccA BA GE{G}ED|G2 [BG]G DG[BG]G|[cE]E[BE]E AE{G}ED|GABG A2 AB|
|c2 Bc AGED|G2 [BG]G DG[BG]G|[cE]E[BE]E AE{G}ED|GABG A2 AB|
|3ccA BA GE{G}ED|G2 [BG]G DG[BG]G|[cE]E[BE]E A~E3|GA[BE]G [A3E3]A||
|(3Bcd ef g{a}gea{b}|aged cAA2|(3Bcd ef gedg|eaag a3 a|
|bagb agef|~g3e dB[GB]B|c2 (3BcB AE{G}ED|GA[BE]G [A3E3]A|
|(3Bcd ef g{a}gea{b}|aged cAAe|(3Bcd ef gedg|eaag a(3aaa|
|bagb agef|~g3e dB[GB]B|c2 (3BcB AE{G}ED|GA[BE]G A3 A||
Mark, I don't think anyone here is suggesting that short bow strokes are the only way to go. It takes a mix, and yes, by the end of the night, the rosin should be pretty well exhausted from every inch of the hair on your bow. But in my experience, many players struggle with speed and timing and lilt because they're trying to get all that while sailing the bow from frog to tip and back every stroke. And that's mighty hard to do with any subtlety and at the speed of most reels. For me, it boils down to using the amount of bow that works for the task at hand. And everyone of us would do it a little differently. For fast reels, I tend to play in the middle and toward the tip, with mostly short strokes (except where I use longer strokes...there's an exception to every generality . For slower tunes, I generally use longer bow strokes, unless there's a prancy little passage of notes.
I think our point here is that many good trad Irish fiddlers tend toward the shorter bow stroke end of the spectrum when playing up tempo tunes. If you want to sound like them, you'd be well advised to mimic their bowing.
It also helps to experiment with different degrees of bow hair tension. I like mine pretty loose, but I've seen some good players screw 'em up as tight as a banjo string. Sometimes I adjust mine for more or less bite, depending on what set is coming up.
Also, I hope we can study someone else's playing to learn from it without worrying too much about becoming their clones, or even just bad copies. Again, the point isn't to play just like Kevin Burke (although I can imagine worse fates), but to learn how he does the magic he does and apply the insights gained to our own playing. I see nothing wrong with understanding how better players think about and execute tunes...it's better than modeling ourselves on truly mediocre players, or players outside the tradition all together. And it's a small risk that any of us will actually end up sounding like Burke or any other model--each of us ends up with our own sound regardless of how much we might mimic another player. Burke's style is very personal, clearly derived from the Sligo heritage, but also different. Chances are your style will also follow a personalized path, even if you learn his settings note for note. You can't help but be influenced by other players and your own abilities and inclinations, which are by definition different from Burke's or anyone else's on this planet. Thank goodness for that, eh?
i play trad adn i'm doing classical and jazz in college:
you paid for the whole bow, use the whole thing! sometimes you can't get proper phrasing or tone without using the whole bow in some places, and only a teeny bit of bow in other places.
in the words of my teacher, matt glaser:
the drum is played with the stick. the violin is played with a stick. i see no reason why fiddle players can't have good rhythm. and with good rhythm comes proper bowing.
The point about having a good bow is one of those subtle points that is so rarely mentioned. A top classical violinist being interviewed may talk at length about the glories of his Strad or whatever, but almost never mentions his superb bow, costing several K£/$, without which he'd just wouldn't be able to play some of the virtuoso music at the standard expected of him or to bring out the fullness of his instrument's tone. If you're buying a fiddle+bow get the best bow you can lay your hands on, even if it means going for a slightly cheaper fiddle. Don't forget that a good violin repairer can do a lot to enhance the resonance and response of almost any fiddle, provided it's not rubbish to start with.
I have been a cellist for most of my life and have come to the fiddle slightly less than 2 years ago. I find I am now using my cello bow more and more often to play the fiddle, because this particular bow, as a bow, is significantly better than my fiddle bow. The only difference is that I use slightly less hair tension when playing the fiddle than when playing the cello. The tone produced is stronger and has that extra "rasp" when I want it. A session friend of mine tried it out and commented favourably on the extra "grunt" in the tone. Because a cello bow is about 30% heavier than a fiddle bow and is shorter and stiffer I find I need slightly less right-hand pressure because the extra weight of the bow is already there to do some of the work. So I wonder when upgrading a fiddle bow whether it may be worth trying a heavier bow such as a viola bow (not necessarily a cello bow) to see if the extra weight and stiffness suits your style of playing.
Right on Trevor, I have a decent fiddle & an absolute cheap-o embarassing bow - a friend was busting my chops about my new purchase of a flute & said "for the price of that flute you could have bought a good bow." (to which I answered "Yeah, I could sell the fiddle & get a much better flute") At any rate he's got a good point. Way too little emphasis is put on a good bow, AOG you spun my wheels & before I get a footjoint or any keys I'll get a good bow & I'm also going to send my fiddle to Carl for a proper set-up.
Michael, it was less of the length of the bow meant.
Caoimghgin, other fiddlers I have been listening to a lot: Tommy Peoples, Paddy Glackin, Jimmy Power, Vincent Griffin, Andy McGann, Matt Cranitch. So you see there's a bit of everything.
Until now, all your contributions proved to be very useful. Thanks a lot, all of you.
Will, your deconstruction of technique is amazing.
I just managed to follow your last posting (skimming bits, I admit) and my head just fizzed. While your meticulous attention to detail is incredibly useful and fascinating, I'm left wondering If I could have followed it at all if I hadn't already known (subconciously) the most of it.
An example:
I was learning to play the fiddle at just about the time Kevin Burke's Promenade album came out, so I obviously have a special affection for it. I learned every tune meticulously (or so I thought). My main problem though, and I only found this out a later, was that my only source of learning material was the sound. I have a pretty good ear and the decoration came without too much bother. I was learning with my mate who was learning the pipes so we swapped decorations.
But the bowing was a different matter. I could hear the classic off beat sound but having never seen it I never knew it was a down stroke. So I learned it with an up stroke (50/50).
I still have this habbit today, even though I've spent many years now playing with and learning from people "properly". It's a strange thing, and many fiddlers comment on it, I play back to front.
So the piont is, if you annalysed my bowing, it's very un traditional. But, it's totally trad if you just hear me.
It's an aural tradition
Irish trad fiddle playing is descended from baroque violin playing in which emphasis to a note is frequently given by an up bow. It's the later music periods which tend to require the emphasis to be given by the down bow. In my experience as an orchestral cellist this is only too frequently applied indiscriminantly and, I have long suspected, with too much regard as to how it appears visually to an audience.
Michael, you've got it right.
An absolutely fascinating debate this one, I am amazed by the technicalities and subtleties of traditional fiddling (Irish style) and since this debate seems to be drifting towards accent, I, as a banjoist, wonder to what extent what is being said in this regard carries over from fiddle to banjo and, indeed, to other instruments. In other words, should I be looking for accented up-strokes from time to time? But where? And, if there is a carry-over to other instruments, then surely the business of accent lies within the tune and consideration of the tune will indicate where accents should be placed. But I repeat my question, what tells the player where to accent an off-beat or is it all a matter of individual interpretation?
Cojo,
As a non-fiddler myself, I'm highly suspicious this entire discussion is because the fiddlers were feeling under-appreciated and decided to wow us with the complexities of their instruments.
Let me tell you, fiddlers, my kazoo and egg-shakers are pretty tough, too. My lip sometimes goes all fuzzy, and I think I'm getting carpal tunnel!
Isn't it shameful how the fiddle players go on! You'd think we're talking about the finer points of yoga technique.
Speaking of up-bow on off-beats, see if you can check out Winifred Horan of the band Solas. She uses a very consistant driving up bow. Very strange. She's been playing violin since she was a kid, but came to the tradition somewhat later and I have no idea where she learned that style. Even if you're not a fiddle player, you should go to a show if available. Winifred a cutie!
I ran into Winifred in a music store in Dublin a few years ago. She was buying a bow and was complaining how she couldn't find one that would hold up. It was funny listening to the store proprietor lecturing her about technique, considering how well she plays. Do you suppose her up-bow approach tends to tear the hair out more than normal?
I can't imagine how some players pop hairs off their bows like they do. There was a lengthy thread on that subject not too long before.
I was trying to get information on the offbeat question that cojo posted, but couldn't locate anything useful. I believe the offbeat is placed everywhere you possibly can do it. From what I've heard, It's simply how much strength the off-beat receives that might be a matter of personal (or regional) preference.
For the most part, I hear the offbeat as being very distinct in every master fiddler (or player of any instrument) but very light at the same time. Kevin Burke most especially.
I have a tendency to really grind the offbeat, which tends to reduce reels (esp Scotts reels) into a 'Old-Time' American feel. I wonder if this is a common problem amoung the Americans given our closeness to C&W/Bluegrass/Old-Time.
A thing that Will touched on earlier:
KB's later style uses more of a run on the bow.
I particularly like this one. In the middle of a reel where you are accenting the off beat pretty hard, play a phrase (could be a bar or even three or four bars) with just one continuous bow stroke, up or down, letting the finger decoration do all the articulation. What might happen is that as you run out of bow you might die off a bit, but this sounds great when you launch back in to the off beat thing. It sounds particularly great if you choose some bars that go accross the end of the tune and a little into the tune's repeat.
It's a great technique for varying it.
Oooh there's such life in this diddly stuff
I just got back from the optometrist and my eyes are still fuzzy from those awful drops they put in, so I have an excuse if I misread anyone's comments here, heh.
Michael, I agree that these long expositions of technique are tough to make sense of unless you already know the stuff. It's much easier to show someone in person than to convey it all in mere words. I'm a lot less wordy in person, Of course, most of us here don't have that option--Henk and I are on different continents at the moment, I believe.
And I know what you mean about playing back to front. I play regularly with another fiddler and our bows are almost always going in opposite directions, even when we bother to arrange tunes for performance, playing every note the same. Of course, I used to think she was the one with the idiosyncratic bowing.... I tend to play lots of downbeats on up bows, and to vary how many notes I slur and where the slurs fall. All due in part at least to the influence of learning from Kevin Burke in my formative years. I love the long runs on one bow stroke he slips into on some tunes, and will never forget when he demonstrated just how far you can take that idea by playing the entire first half of Silver Spear in two bow strokes (while reclining on a sofa, after a late night/early morning session the night before). He had such good bow control that every accent was just as clean and clear and well timed as if he were changing bow direction at every opportunity.
As for translating some of these ideas onto other instruments, I think a lot of it makes good sense. I know that I play many down beats with an up pick on mandolin and guitar, so I imagine it could also work on banjo, particularly if you're looking to add more flow to the overall sound. To my ear, always coming down on the downbeat quickly starts to sound formulaic and heavy handed. And on whistle and flute, I've noticed that breathing and tonguing can also be used for very much the same effect, to lighten the down beat (by slurring over it or even taking a breath on it) and then throwing the emphasis onto the off beat by starting that note with a huff of air or a tongue.
For me, the goal here is to think about all of this just long enough to learn how to get the sound you want no matter which way your bow/pick/tongue is going, and then use all of the tools in your kit to play with variety and a sense of surprise. One of the best exercises I know of for loosening up your bowing is to take a one or two bar phrase and bow it every which way, from single bow strokes to all slurs. And then work through it, placing the accent on a different note each time through. For example,
K:G
|DGBG cGBG|
put the accent on the first beat of each part:
|*D*GBG *c*GBG|
then on the Gs:
|D*G*BG c*G*BG|
then on the off beats:
|DG*B*G cG*B*G|
then on the tag ends:
|DGB*G* cGB*G*|
when you can do this, you;ll be able to effectively accent whatever note needs it at a given moment and truly bring the tune to life.
Michael: I don't think I gave the impression that I don't appreciate the subtlety involved in traditional music as played on the fiddle and , in fact, I referrred to the subtleties in the second line of my last posting! When KB, TP, FG inter al play, I have no doubt whatsoever that that an art is being practised the intricacies of which are very elusive to me and probably would be to vast majority of humankind. My query concerned the transferability of that art to other instruments. I also wonder if there is something in the essence of the music being played that dictates the nature and placing of the ornamentation and are the KB's then skilled craftsmen particularly adept at spotting interesting positions for ornamentation and with an outstanding ability to then execute them? Are fiddle subtleties not applicable to the bodhran for example but then perhaps there are bodhran subtleties not applicable to the fiddle? Is the whole business so integrated into KB's person that he performs this high art as naturally and easily as I perform a dudu on the banjo? Does this skill only come about as a result of intensive study and practice? Is the nature/nurture debate relevant to this discussion? I know one elderly gentleman whose father was a close friend of John Docherty and who plays a driving, ornamented and rhythmic reel /jig but who readily admits that his reedy, slightly out of tune sound can be quite unmusical to some ears. He tells me that he picked up the rudiments 'at his daddy's knee' and the complexities by means of a finger on the LP's of Michael Coleman. He tells me that he spent many, many hours doing this in order to learn what Coleman was doing in "Bonnie Kate" but he would stoutly (guinessly) maintain that he did NOT study or practise. I have come to understand his logic: he ENJOYED the process of getting "Bonnie Kate" off and therefore it was not looked on as study or practice. It's a logic fully understood by Bill Clinton. So is this KB's secret. Untold hours of ENJOYING himself.
Cojo, I was only taking the .... out of the banjo thing. Sorry, (but you must be used to it by now).
Plus, I know I love Kevin Burke' playing, but we've all got to watch this pedastle thing. I know plenty of players who are just as good and different as Kevin Burke, but who just aren't professional or famous. I've never heard Will, but I bet he must be brilliant, especially to undeerstand it so fully.
Yes Michael we banjo players are all used to it! In one session recently in Glasgow, the Michael Coleman aficianado to whom I referred was the only fiddler present but there were also 1 Bodhranist and 5 tenor banjoes comprising the session. He did remark ( the fiddler) that this particular session was totally lopsided or words to that effect. The overwhelming presence of banjoes possibly caused his comments to be in the form of a remark rather than a dissertation, litany or tirade.
However, I do utterly respect the fiddler's art which is a constant delight to me and it would not be my intention to obscure Henk's original query regarding leaning on the bow as practised by Kevin Burke even though I, personally, cannot illuminate him on any technical detail of fiddle playing whatsoever. My lack of understanding is one reason why I have a tendency to 'pedestalise' even though my preferences might well yield a tendency to look for the unusual eg Tommy Peoples would probably be the fiddler whose work would be on my desert island followed closely by Paddy Glackin (as long as his CD featured some of his exquisite playing on the G string).
Accent is a different matter though and one where each instrumentalist may well have a unique viewpoint. We can debate this business without really knowing the technicalities of each other's instrument but I accept that Henk's question ought to be considered by fellow fiddlers and not by aspiring banjoists since it dealt with technicalities. I admit to jumping in where educated angels would not have dared tread and, duly chastised, I will be back!
Now, the matter of accented notes on the banjo.......
Heh, Michael, do a search for "self deprecation" and you'll find the thread where my true abilities are fully disclosed. I could be the poster boy for the "Those who can't do, teach" club.
The reason I tend to harp on about Kevin Burke in here so often is that he was the one Irish fiddler I had access to when I was first starting out. I lived in western Oregon, an hour south of Portland, and Kevin gave individual lessons back then. Who was I to say no to that?
The end result is that I've listened very closely to a lot of Burke's playing. Do I put him on a pedestal? No. He's a splendid player and a charming, generous person, but so are many other musicians, famous and unknown alike.
Living in the western US doesn't allow many opportunities for meeting and playing with other top flight Irish fiddlers. I've played with a few, but they tend to be top names on tour, not the lesser known local pub magicians you might hear in Ennis or Galway or Boston or Chicago. I envy you guys who live in the thick of it.
I think my tendency to analyze how we play and put it down in words comes from two areas: First, I'm a writer by trade. It's my job to find the words to explain complex ideas. Second, 20 years of learning Irish fiddling, most of it without a face-to-face mentor to learn from, forced me to rely on recordings a lot. To get as close as possible to the sound I wanted to re-create, I had to dissect the tunes and players' approaches to them from tapes and cds. I checked my hunches at every opportunity by playing and talking with other musicians, but these opportunities were few and far between. Still, I owe a lot to the generosity and encouragement of Kevin Burke, Liz Carroll, Johnny Cunningham, Aly Bain, Cathal McConnell, Mick Moloney, Winnie Horan, Sean Smyth, the Wrigley sisters, and Joanie Madden. All "name" players, yes, but don't let their marketing team fool you--each one of them is just somebody's neighbor, as down-to-earth as they come. They took the time after concerts to swap a few tunes or just talk, and I always learned a ton.
Will
I don't mind you using Kevin Burke as an example in the least. He taught me too (though not in person). I even thought of moving to Portland once, when I was a kid, but I moved to Leeds instead and fell in with the Paddys there. And splended Paddys they are too.
I met Kevin Burke coulple of times and he is indeed charming and funny.
Still, I have lived in Edinburgh now for many years and what a fiddle player's mecca it is. Much much talent, young, old, famous, not so famous. Self depreciating and self appreciating. They know who they are.
I never trust someone who says they're no good.
And I never trust someone who says they are good.
I don't believe you Will
Will is simply incredible at writing and conveying technical details about approaching the music. It shows a great deal of thoroughness and care for the tradition.
Will, you don't happen to be an writer for software manuals? If not, I think you have a whole new career path waiting for you.
Now, let's stop all of this pleasantness and get back to the true tradition of Irish culture. Fighting amounst ourselves!
Heh, what if I told you I am alternately good and no good at all? As an amateur, inconsistency is my calling card. On really good days, when I'm "on," I surprise myself and this fiddle can sound quite good. On bad days, there's no salvaging it.
What matters more (to me at any rate) is that I can play a bundle of tunes well enough to fit in at most sessions and contribute (rather than detract from) the overall sound and crack. My hunch is that many of us here are on about the same plane--very competent amateurs who make up with passion for what we might lack in practice hours. To me, it's not competition or comparison shopping, so I don't worry about where I fit in the grand pecking order of players.
Anyway, I've taught music since I was 15, and I probably have a better knack for that than for performing. Which is why I run a slow session in addition to our regular local session, and rarely do gigs anymore. A good session, or sitting around someone's kitchen playing tunes, or helping someone learn a tune--these are the times I live and play for. So how "good" do you have to be? On the other hand, it's nice to still be getting better, even after all these years. No end to learning, eh?
blush, blush.
Careful Caoimghgin, or I'll never shut up, heh.
So far I've avoided working on software manuals. I do mostly natural resources and outdoor recreation writing and editing. Some of it gets technical (environmental impact statements, reports on liability apportionment for superfund clean-up costs, mental health care medications management, etc.) but I like to think of that as creative non-fiction.
I'm just very glad to be of any help I can, passing along what others in the tradition have taught me.
Do you mind telling me where you lived when you took lessons from Kevin B? Where I live now sounds pretty close to your description. My good friend Craig Z. (who no longer resides here) used to tell me the stories about his "lessons" with Kevin in Portland. Wish I had been there.
1WKs, back in the early 1980s I moved from Montana to in Springfield, Oregon, across the river from Eugene. And then I lived for a stint in Junction City, which is about 8 miles north of Eugene along the Willamette River. I started with lessons from Linda Danielson, who now teaches at the Valley of the Moon fiddle camp in the Santa Cruz Mountains south of San Francisco. As far as I know, Linda still lives (and probably teaches) in the Eugene area. At the time, she was taking lessons from Mr. Burke and eventually suggested that I go too. Kevin was living in a fourth floor apartment on Portland's west side back then, about an hour's drive north for me but worth every commute. I was in the earliest stages of learning fiddle, scratching away and making an awful mess of Silver Spear and Absent-minded Old Woman and Kid on the Mountain. He was encouraging, nevertheless, and very helpful, and I still occasionally sift through his advice from the lesson tapes I made.
I worked two jobs during the year and a half I lived there: one doing maintenance for the Junction City Parks Department, and one as a jack-of-all-trades for Finley National Wildlife Refuge between Bellfountain and Corvallis. Then I landed a job in the Anaconda-Pintler Wilderness back in Montana, and that was the end of fiddle lessons.
I live about a half hour west of Corvallis near the small town of Alsea. We are in the shadow of lovely Mary's Peak, the highest mountain in the coastal range.
I also took a few lessons from Linda many years ago...I'm sure she still plays in the Eugene area.
I've had some good times watching the geese, hawks and occasional eagle at Finley with my kids. 1988 was the year we came to our present home.
Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
This is a question to any fiddler, but particularly to those playing in the Sligo style, and more especially to Will (after all, he's probably as big a fan of Kevin Burke as I am!).
The past year I have trained myself to use less and less bow, to get better timing and rhythm at higher speeds. I found out, that when I take only a slightly longer pause between up and down bow (and vice versa) it gives me the opportunity to really 'lean on it', give the firm accent (much pressure and very little bow) in an otherwise flowing style. This works especially fine in the off beats of a reel (now there 's Kevin Burke).
However, I find it hard to keep this feel and pleasing sound when speeding up to the faster session speeds. The notes still come out, but the dance rhythm is 'fading'.
Does my description of executing this 'leaning on it' make sense? Any suggestions to keep the swing going at higher speeds?
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Henk Bos
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Forgot to say that the problem hardly arises when staying on one string. So it's when crossing strings that I get this problem.
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Henk Bos
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
I've been told that according to proper violin technique, You shouldn't lean on the bow at all. You get any extra volume you need by simply drawing the bow faster.
Of course that is not quite the case with diddly music. Accenting the off beats in a reel with a sharp down bow is a well established style. Try to think of this as an acceleration rather than more preasure. It should be a better tone
I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you are using less and less bow. Do you mean less of the length of the bow? Less preasure? Less changing direction?
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Hello Henk,
This would be *soooo much easier* to talk about--and demonstrate to each other--in person! But I think you're headed down the right track, and I'll try to offer what little insight I might have on this.
It sounds like you're well on your way to getting Burke's trademark pulse by "leaning" on the bow at just the right time to accent those off beats. That's precisely how Burke does it, pushing the bow into the strings to use soft-to-heavy dynamics to "swell" the sound onto the accented note. (You can also create a lot of "pop" by leaning on the bow and abruptly letting up as you slur onto the next note. Burke uses that approach a lot on polkas and on some reels.)
As for keeping the pulse going at higher speeds, my advice would be to keep the bow hair weighted onto the string and moving, rather than taking a "pause" as you described it above. I think that miniscule pause you're hearing in Burke's playing comes from a release of pressure on the bow, but (and this is vitally important) *the bow keeps moving* and stays in contact with the string. In other words, he varies his bow pressure--not speed or actual movement--to emphasize certain notes. If you think of keeping the bow moving, rather than pausing, I think you'll find this all much easier to do at faster speeds because the bowing is more fluid.
That said, Burke also likes to periodically come off the strings all together or clearly pause (stop the bow) to add a more percusive element to his otherwise flowing style. But he mixes these accents in rather sparingly (and to my ear very tastefully).
Another aspect of Burke's bowing that I've noticed, particularly in his more recent playing, is that he tends to lean on the bow more often on up bows, so those accented off beats quite often happen during up bows. I asked him once to play Maudabawn Chapel just so I could follow his bow direction, and in the A Part at least, most of the accents came on up bows, often slurred across from the previous beat in the previous bar. Lots of players slur across the beat like this, but Burke really has it down--he can slur three or more notes on a single up bow and isolate and accent any one of them with perfect timing simply by leaning on the hair at just the right moment. Plus he mixes it up with crisp, punchy down-bows just to keep us on our toes.
A good tune to work on for all of this is Burke's version of the Old Torn Petticoat, the reel that he usually plays after the Old Torn Petticoat jig. It's on several of his albums, and most of his versions are very similar. Slow it down and listen to how he slurs across the beat and across strings to create a sense of flow, all the while using sublte bow pressure to keep the beat going.
Hope this helps. If I can wrangle some spare time, I'll post Old Torn Petticoat on this thread with some bowing possibilities. But now work beckons.....
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Will Harmon
Well, I have to disagree with Michael on this one, at least in the context of Burke's fiddling. Kevin sat me down once and played a polka he calls the Britches Full of Stitches, and made a point of showing how he gets the pop and pulse by pressing and releasing the hairs against the string. In fact, he emphasized keeping the bow speed steady.
Henk, the Old Torn Petticoat gives a great example of Burke slurring across strings and putting a beat on one note, all on a single bow. I'll try to post the abcs here soon.
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Not to take away anything from Mr. Burke (I love his playing), but if you're studing a Clare/Sligo style, I'm not sure if Kevin Burke is the guy to listen to. Not that playing like Kevin Burke would be a bad thing, but I believe his playing has moved far away from a regional style.
Henk Box, what other players are you listening to?
I do have to back up Will by saying that shorter bow strokes with pressure is the ticket, though we've all seen the opposite in some great players! I'm afraid I am falling into the same 'Pause' trap that Will describes. I'll have to try to simply release pressure instead of stopping. 'Sounds' right.
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Will
I agree with you, I did say that pressing harder IS the case with diddly music. You get that slight rasp on the attack that we all love and classical players cringe at.
I think your descriptions of the way Kevin Burke plays are terrific. When I think about it, I do alot of it without thinking. Eileen Ivers does alot of it too but with much less subtlety than Kevin Burke. Maybe its easier to understand what's going on if you listen to Eileen Ivers, Then tone it down a bit
It maybe worth pointing out that KB's bowing style requires a decent bow. If you've got a cheep one, you've no chance.
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Shorter bow stokes with more pressure!? That is one way to approach the music. I firmly believe that you miss out of the majority of the beauty from your instrument by restricting bow use to a few inches up to a foot. You cheat yourself out of all the other wonderful bow techniques. If your only goal is to "Get Kevin's" (not you C-) style of playing down, go for it.
Better yet - learn how to play the "leans" well and then go back and learn some other techniques with the longer bow strokes. If you are comfortable with the entire bow, then playing and accenting short bow strokes is just a tool in the toolchest.
Mark
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Mark Cordova
You got that right about the good bow. So many times a cheaper bow will dictate how music is to be played. With a good bow - you are the boss. Funny how it takes a little while to adjust to the freedom.
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Of course, people could recommend that the learning Irish-Trad player should only use very long, silky-smooth bow strokes constantly, taking care to use the entire bow at every oportunity, and finally add grotesqe amounts of vibrato to every single note until the instrument screams for mercy. Surely you didn't want someone to write that did you Mark?
The short/pressure bow approach shouldn't be the only tool in the toolbox, but if it's the appropriate tool for the job it makes sense to use it. Like I've said above, several top trad-players break this 'rule' in the most glorious and awesome ways. For me, the short/pressure bow is essential to capture that slight raspyness that Michael mentions above.
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Okay, here's a pretty close transcription of Burke's setting on his Promenade album. I also posted it in the comments section to this tune in our archives here. Again, when I can find more time, I'll add some thoughts about bowing.
. For slower tunes, I generally use longer bow strokes, unless there's a prancy little passage of notes.
T: The Old Torn Petticoat
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
D: Kevin Burke and Micheal O Domhnaill - Promenade
C: Traditional
N: This version is taken from the above album, Side A, Track 3. Burke plays the same set—with significant bowing differences—on a more recent cd, Kevin Burke – In Concert. The Promenade version is more representative of his swooping, flowing style. The notation here begins after the bridge Burke plays to get from the previous tune and ends as Burke starts in for the second time around the tune.
K: A dorian
ed|cdBc AE{G}ED|G2 [BG]G DG[BG]G|[cE]E[BE]E AE{G}ED|GABG A2 AB|
|(3ccA BA GE{G}ED|G2 [BG]G DG[BG]G|[cE]E[BE]E AE{G}ED|GABG A2 AB|
|c2 Bc AGED|G2 [BG]G DG[BG]G|[cE]E[BE]E AE{G}ED|GABG A2 AB|
|3ccA BA GE{G}ED|G2 [BG]G DG[BG]G|[cE]E[BE]E A~E3|GA[BE]G [A3E3]A||
|(3Bcd ef g{a}gea{b}|aged cAA2|(3Bcd ef gedg|eaag a3 a|
|bagb agef|~g3e dB[GB]B|c2 (3BcB AE{G}ED|GA[BE]G [A3E3]A|
|(3Bcd ef g{a}gea{b}|aged cAAe|(3Bcd ef gedg|eaag a(3aaa|
|bagb agef|~g3e dB[GB]B|c2 (3BcB AE{G}ED|GA[BE]G A3 A||
Mark, I don't think anyone here is suggesting that short bow strokes are the only way to go. It takes a mix, and yes, by the end of the night, the rosin should be pretty well exhausted from every inch of the hair on your bow. But in my experience, many players struggle with speed and timing and lilt because they're trying to get all that while sailing the bow from frog to tip and back every stroke. And that's mighty hard to do with any subtlety and at the speed of most reels. For me, it boils down to using the amount of bow that works for the task at hand. And everyone of us would do it a little differently. For fast reels, I tend to play in the middle and toward the tip, with mostly short strokes (except where I use longer strokes...there's an exception to every generality
I think our point here is that many good trad Irish fiddlers tend toward the shorter bow stroke end of the spectrum when playing up tempo tunes. If you want to sound like them, you'd be well advised to mimic their bowing.
It also helps to experiment with different degrees of bow hair tension. I like mine pretty loose, but I've seen some good players screw 'em up as tight as a banjo string. Sometimes I adjust mine for more or less bite, depending on what set is coming up.
Also, I hope we can study someone else's playing to learn from it without worrying too much about becoming their clones, or even just bad copies. Again, the point isn't to play just like Kevin Burke (although I can imagine worse fates), but to learn how he does the magic he does and apply the insights gained to our own playing. I see nothing wrong with understanding how better players think about and execute tunes...it's better than modeling ourselves on truly mediocre players, or players outside the tradition all together. And it's a small risk that any of us will actually end up sounding like Burke or any other model--each of us ends up with our own sound regardless of how much we might mimic another player. Burke's style is very personal, clearly derived from the Sligo heritage, but also different. Chances are your style will also follow a personalized path, even if you learn his settings note for note. You can't help but be influenced by other players and your own abilities and inclinations, which are by definition different from Burke's or anyone else's on this planet. Thank goodness for that, eh?
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
I find that I am guilty of doing the very same thing that I asked others not to do on another post.
The point is to give you all credit where it is due. If say X it doesn't mean you don't believe Y.
Your hair splitter of the day - Mark the longbow.
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
i play trad adn i'm doing classical and jazz in college:
you paid for the whole bow, use the whole thing! sometimes you can't get proper phrasing or tone without using the whole bow in some places, and only a teeny bit of bow in other places.
in the words of my teacher, matt glaser:
the drum is played with the stick. the violin is played with a stick. i see no reason why fiddle players can't have good rhythm. and with good rhythm comes proper bowing.
a burrito of thought...
cara
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by carafiddle
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
The point about having a good bow is one of those subtle points that is so rarely mentioned. A top classical violinist being interviewed may talk at length about the glories of his Strad or whatever, but almost never mentions his superb bow, costing several K£/$, without which he'd just wouldn't be able to play some of the virtuoso music at the standard expected of him or to bring out the fullness of his instrument's tone. If you're buying a fiddle+bow get the best bow you can lay your hands on, even if it means going for a slightly cheaper fiddle. Don't forget that a good violin repairer can do a lot to enhance the resonance and response of almost any fiddle, provided it's not rubbish to start with.
I have been a cellist for most of my life and have come to the fiddle slightly less than 2 years ago. I find I am now using my cello bow more and more often to play the fiddle, because this particular bow, as a bow, is significantly better than my fiddle bow. The only difference is that I use slightly less hair tension when playing the fiddle than when playing the cello. The tone produced is stronger and has that extra "rasp" when I want it. A session friend of mine tried it out and commented favourably on the extra "grunt" in the tone. Because a cello bow is about 30% heavier than a fiddle bow and is shorter and stiffer I find I need slightly less right-hand pressure because the extra weight of the bow is already there to do some of the work. So I wonder when upgrading a fiddle bow whether it may be worth trying a heavier bow such as a viola bow (not necessarily a cello bow) to see if the extra weight and stiffness suits your style of playing.
trevor
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Right on Trevor, I have a decent fiddle & an absolute cheap-o embarassing bow - a friend was busting my chops about my new purchase of a flute & said "for the price of that flute you could have bought a good bow." (to which I answered "Yeah, I could sell the fiddle & get a much better flute") At any rate he's got a good point. Way too little emphasis is put on a good bow, AOG you spun my wheels & before I get a footjoint or any keys I'll get a good bow & I'm also going to send my fiddle to Carl for a proper set-up.
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Some questions to answer:
Michael, it was less of the length of the bow meant.
Caoimghgin, other fiddlers I have been listening to a lot: Tommy Peoples, Paddy Glackin, Jimmy Power, Vincent Griffin, Andy McGann, Matt Cranitch. So you see there's a bit of everything.
Until now, all your contributions proved to be very useful. Thanks a lot, all of you.
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Henk Bos
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Will, your deconstruction of technique is amazing.
I just managed to follow your last posting (skimming bits, I admit) and my head just fizzed. While your meticulous attention to detail is incredibly useful and fascinating, I'm left wondering If I could have followed it at all if I hadn't already known (subconciously) the most of it.
An example:
I was learning to play the fiddle at just about the time Kevin Burke's Promenade album came out, so I obviously have a special affection for it. I learned every tune meticulously (or so I thought). My main problem though, and I only found this out a later, was that my only source of learning material was the sound. I have a pretty good ear and the decoration came without too much bother. I was learning with my mate who was learning the pipes so we swapped decorations.
But the bowing was a different matter. I could hear the classic off beat sound but having never seen it I never knew it was a down stroke. So I learned it with an up stroke (50/50).
I still have this habbit today, even though I've spent many years now playing with and learning from people "properly". It's a strange thing, and many fiddlers comment on it, I play back to front.
So the piont is, if you annalysed my bowing, it's very un traditional. But, it's totally trad if you just hear me.
It's an aural tradition
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Irish trad fiddle playing is descended from baroque violin playing in which emphasis to a note is frequently given by an up bow. It's the later music periods which tend to require the emphasis to be given by the down bow. In my experience as an orchestral cellist this is only too frequently applied indiscriminantly and, I have long suspected, with too much regard as to how it appears visually to an audience.
Michael, you've got it right.
trevor
# Posted on November 21st 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
An absolutely fascinating debate this one, I am amazed by the technicalities and subtleties of traditional fiddling (Irish style) and since this debate seems to be drifting towards accent, I, as a banjoist, wonder to what extent what is being said in this regard carries over from fiddle to banjo and, indeed, to other instruments. In other words, should I be looking for accented up-strokes from time to time? But where? And, if there is a carry-over to other instruments, then surely the business of accent lies within the tune and consideration of the tune will indicate where accents should be placed. But I repeat my question, what tells the player where to accent an off-beat or is it all a matter of individual interpretation?
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by r&c
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Cojo,
As a non-fiddler myself, I'm highly suspicious this entire discussion is because the fiddlers were feeling under-appreciated and decided to wow us with the complexities of their instruments.
Let me tell you, fiddlers, my kazoo and egg-shakers are pretty tough, too. My lip sometimes goes all fuzzy, and I think I'm getting carpal tunnel!
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Isn't it shameful how the fiddle players go on! You'd think we're talking about the finer points of yoga technique.
Speaking of up-bow on off-beats, see if you can check out Winifred Horan of the band Solas. She uses a very consistant driving up bow. Very strange. She's been playing violin since she was a kid, but came to the tradition somewhat later and I have no idea where she learned that style. Even if you're not a fiddle player, you should go to a show if available. Winifred a cutie!
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
No ofence cojo, but we're talking about subtlety here.
Subtlety, and being under appreciated
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
I ran into Winifred in a music store in Dublin a few years ago. She was buying a bow and was complaining how she couldn't find one that would hold up. It was funny listening to the store proprietor lecturing her about technique, considering how well she plays. Do you suppose her up-bow approach tends to tear the hair out more than normal?
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Perhaps she did the same as me. And just learned by hearing it.
And I don't lose any more hairs than my down stroking off beat pals
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
I'll bet you have a lot of off-beat pals!
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
every one of them
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
I can't imagine how some players pop hairs off their bows like they do. There was a lengthy thread on that subject not too long before.
I was trying to get information on the offbeat question that cojo posted, but couldn't locate anything useful. I believe the offbeat is placed everywhere you possibly can do it. From what I've heard, It's simply how much strength the off-beat receives that might be a matter of personal (or regional) preference.
For the most part, I hear the offbeat as being very distinct in every master fiddler (or player of any instrument) but very light at the same time. Kevin Burke most especially.
I have a tendency to really grind the offbeat, which tends to reduce reels (esp Scotts reels) into a 'Old-Time' American feel. I wonder if this is a common problem amoung the Americans given our closeness to C&W/Bluegrass/Old-Time.
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
A thing that Will touched on earlier:
KB's later style uses more of a run on the bow.
I particularly like this one. In the middle of a reel where you are accenting the off beat pretty hard, play a phrase (could be a bar or even three or four bars) with just one continuous bow stroke, up or down, letting the finger decoration do all the articulation. What might happen is that as you run out of bow you might die off a bit, but this sounds great when you launch back in to the off beat thing. It sounds particularly great if you choose some bars that go accross the end of the tune and a little into the tune's repeat.
It's a great technique for varying it.
Oooh there's such life in this diddly stuff
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
I just got back from the optometrist and my eyes are still fuzzy from those awful drops they put in, so I have an excuse if I misread anyone's comments here, heh.
Of course, most of us here don't have that option--Henk and I are on different continents at the moment, I believe.
Michael, I agree that these long expositions of technique are tough to make sense of unless you already know the stuff. It's much easier to show someone in person than to convey it all in mere words. I'm a lot less wordy in person,
And I know what you mean about playing back to front. I play regularly with another fiddler and our bows are almost always going in opposite directions, even when we bother to arrange tunes for performance, playing every note the same. Of course, I used to think she was the one with the idiosyncratic bowing.... I tend to play lots of downbeats on up bows, and to vary how many notes I slur and where the slurs fall. All due in part at least to the influence of learning from Kevin Burke in my formative years. I love the long runs on one bow stroke he slips into on some tunes, and will never forget when he demonstrated just how far you can take that idea by playing the entire first half of Silver Spear in two bow strokes (while reclining on a sofa, after a late night/early morning session the night before). He had such good bow control that every accent was just as clean and clear and well timed as if he were changing bow direction at every opportunity.
As for translating some of these ideas onto other instruments, I think a lot of it makes good sense. I know that I play many down beats with an up pick on mandolin and guitar, so I imagine it could also work on banjo, particularly if you're looking to add more flow to the overall sound. To my ear, always coming down on the downbeat quickly starts to sound formulaic and heavy handed. And on whistle and flute, I've noticed that breathing and tonguing can also be used for very much the same effect, to lighten the down beat (by slurring over it or even taking a breath on it) and then throwing the emphasis onto the off beat by starting that note with a huff of air or a tongue.
For me, the goal here is to think about all of this just long enough to learn how to get the sound you want no matter which way your bow/pick/tongue is going, and then use all of the tools in your kit to play with variety and a sense of surprise. One of the best exercises I know of for loosening up your bowing is to take a one or two bar phrase and bow it every which way, from single bow strokes to all slurs. And then work through it, placing the accent on a different note each time through. For example,
K:G
|DGBG cGBG|
put the accent on the first beat of each part:
|*D*GBG *c*GBG|
then on the Gs:
|D*G*BG c*G*BG|
then on the off beats:
|DG*B*G cG*B*G|
then on the tag ends:
|DGB*G* cGB*G*|
when you can do this, you;ll be able to effectively accent whatever note needs it at a given moment and truly bring the tune to life.
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Michael: I don't think I gave the impression that I don't appreciate the subtlety involved in traditional music as played on the fiddle and , in fact, I referrred to the subtleties in the second line of my last posting! When KB, TP, FG inter al play, I have no doubt whatsoever that that an art is being practised the intricacies of which are very elusive to me and probably would be to vast majority of humankind. My query concerned the transferability of that art to other instruments. I also wonder if there is something in the essence of the music being played that dictates the nature and placing of the ornamentation and are the KB's then skilled craftsmen particularly adept at spotting interesting positions for ornamentation and with an outstanding ability to then execute them? Are fiddle subtleties not applicable to the bodhran for example but then perhaps there are bodhran subtleties not applicable to the fiddle? Is the whole business so integrated into KB's person that he performs this high art as naturally and easily as I perform a dudu on the banjo? Does this skill only come about as a result of intensive study and practice? Is the nature/nurture debate relevant to this discussion? I know one elderly gentleman whose father was a close friend of John Docherty and who plays a driving, ornamented and rhythmic reel /jig but who readily admits that his reedy, slightly out of tune sound can be quite unmusical to some ears. He tells me that he picked up the rudiments 'at his daddy's knee' and the complexities by means of a finger on the LP's of Michael Coleman. He tells me that he spent many, many hours doing this in order to learn what Coleman was doing in "Bonnie Kate" but he would stoutly (guinessly) maintain that he did NOT study or practise. I have come to understand his logic: he ENJOYED the process of getting "Bonnie Kate" off and therefore it was not looked on as study or practice. It's a logic fully understood by Bill Clinton. So is this KB's secret. Untold hours of ENJOYING himself.
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by r&c
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Cojo, I was only taking the .... out of the banjo thing. Sorry, (but you must be used to it by now).
Plus, I know I love Kevin Burke' playing, but we've all got to watch this pedastle thing. I know plenty of players who are just as good and different as Kevin Burke, but who just aren't professional or famous. I've never heard Will, but I bet he must be brilliant, especially to undeerstand it so fully.
# Posted on November 23rd 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Yes Michael we banjo players are all used to it! In one session recently in Glasgow, the Michael Coleman aficianado to whom I referred was the only fiddler present but there were also 1 Bodhranist and 5 tenor banjoes comprising the session. He did remark ( the fiddler) that this particular session was totally lopsided or words to that effect. The overwhelming presence of banjoes possibly caused his comments to be in the form of a remark rather than a dissertation, litany or tirade.
However, I do utterly respect the fiddler's art which is a constant delight to me and it would not be my intention to obscure Henk's original query regarding leaning on the bow as practised by Kevin Burke even though I, personally, cannot illuminate him on any technical detail of fiddle playing whatsoever. My lack of understanding is one reason why I have a tendency to 'pedestalise' even though my preferences might well yield a tendency to look for the unusual eg Tommy Peoples would probably be the fiddler whose work would be on my desert island followed closely by Paddy Glackin (as long as his CD featured some of his exquisite playing on the G string).
Accent is a different matter though and one where each instrumentalist may well have a unique viewpoint. We can debate this business without really knowing the technicalities of each other's instrument but I accept that Henk's question ought to be considered by fellow fiddlers and not by aspiring banjoists since it dealt with technicalities. I admit to jumping in where educated angels would not have dared tread and, duly chastised, I will be back!
Now, the matter of accented notes on the banjo.......
# Posted on November 24th 2002 by r&c
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Heh, Michael, do a search for "self deprecation" and you'll find the thread where my true abilities are fully disclosed. I could be the poster boy for the "Those who can't do, teach" club.
The reason I tend to harp on about Kevin Burke in here so often is that he was the one Irish fiddler I had access to when I was first starting out. I lived in western Oregon, an hour south of Portland, and Kevin gave individual lessons back then. Who was I to say no to that?
The end result is that I've listened very closely to a lot of Burke's playing. Do I put him on a pedestal? No. He's a splendid player and a charming, generous person, but so are many other musicians, famous and unknown alike.
Living in the western US doesn't allow many opportunities for meeting and playing with other top flight Irish fiddlers. I've played with a few, but they tend to be top names on tour, not the lesser known local pub magicians you might hear in Ennis or Galway or Boston or Chicago. I envy you guys who live in the thick of it.
I think my tendency to analyze how we play and put it down in words comes from two areas: First, I'm a writer by trade. It's my job to find the words to explain complex ideas. Second, 20 years of learning Irish fiddling, most of it without a face-to-face mentor to learn from, forced me to rely on recordings a lot. To get as close as possible to the sound I wanted to re-create, I had to dissect the tunes and players' approaches to them from tapes and cds. I checked my hunches at every opportunity by playing and talking with other musicians, but these opportunities were few and far between. Still, I owe a lot to the generosity and encouragement of Kevin Burke, Liz Carroll, Johnny Cunningham, Aly Bain, Cathal McConnell, Mick Moloney, Winnie Horan, Sean Smyth, the Wrigley sisters, and Joanie Madden. All "name" players, yes, but don't let their marketing team fool you--each one of them is just somebody's neighbor, as down-to-earth as they come. They took the time after concerts to swap a few tunes or just talk, and I always learned a ton.
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Will
I don't mind you using Kevin Burke as an example in the least. He taught me too (though not in person). I even thought of moving to Portland once, when I was a kid, but I moved to Leeds instead and fell in with the Paddys there. And splended Paddys they are too.
I met Kevin Burke coulple of times and he is indeed charming and funny.
Still, I have lived in Edinburgh now for many years and what a fiddle player's mecca it is. Much much talent, young, old, famous, not so famous. Self depreciating and self appreciating. They know who they are.
I never trust someone who says they're no good.
And I never trust someone who says they are good.
I don't believe you Will
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
I think Michael has Will pegged. Will sounds like one of those chess players who says "Oh, I play a bit!" and then proceeds to kick your butt!
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by cuchulain54
Mighty Craic!
Will is simply incredible at writing and conveying technical details about approaching the music. It shows a great deal of thoroughness and care for the tradition.
Will, you don't happen to be an writer for software manuals? If not, I think you have a whole new career path waiting for you.
Now, let's stop all of this pleasantness and get back to the true tradition of Irish culture. Fighting amounst ourselves!
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Heh, what if I told you I am alternately good and no good at all? As an amateur, inconsistency is my calling card. On really good days, when I'm "on," I surprise myself and this fiddle can sound quite good. On bad days, there's no salvaging it.
What matters more (to me at any rate) is that I can play a bundle of tunes well enough to fit in at most sessions and contribute (rather than detract from) the overall sound and crack. My hunch is that many of us here are on about the same plane--very competent amateurs who make up with passion for what we might lack in practice hours. To me, it's not competition or comparison shopping, so I don't worry about where I fit in the grand pecking order of players.
Anyway, I've taught music since I was 15, and I probably have a better knack for that than for performing. Which is why I run a slow session in addition to our regular local session, and rarely do gigs anymore. A good session, or sitting around someone's kitchen playing tunes, or helping someone learn a tune--these are the times I live and play for. So how "good" do you have to be? On the other hand, it's nice to still be getting better, even after all these years. No end to learning, eh?
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
blush, blush.
Careful Caoimghgin, or I'll never shut up, heh.
So far I've avoided working on software manuals. I do mostly natural resources and outdoor recreation writing and editing. Some of it gets technical (environmental impact statements, reports on liability apportionment for superfund clean-up costs, mental health care medications management, etc.) but I like to think of that as creative non-fiction.
I'm just very glad to be of any help I can, passing along what others in the tradition have taught me.
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Question for Will H
Do you mind telling me where you lived when you took lessons from Kevin B? Where I live now sounds pretty close to your description. My good friend Craig Z. (who no longer resides here) used to tell me the stories about his "lessons" with Kevin in Portland. Wish I had been there.
# Posted on November 29th 2002 by 1whoknows
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
1WKs, back in the early 1980s I moved from Montana to in Springfield, Oregon, across the river from Eugene. And then I lived for a stint in Junction City, which is about 8 miles north of Eugene along the Willamette River. I started with lessons from Linda Danielson, who now teaches at the Valley of the Moon fiddle camp in the Santa Cruz Mountains south of San Francisco. As far as I know, Linda still lives (and probably teaches) in the Eugene area. At the time, she was taking lessons from Mr. Burke and eventually suggested that I go too. Kevin was living in a fourth floor apartment on Portland's west side back then, about an hour's drive north for me but worth every commute. I was in the earliest stages of learning fiddle, scratching away and making an awful mess of Silver Spear and Absent-minded Old Woman and Kid on the Mountain. He was encouraging, nevertheless, and very helpful, and I still occasionally sift through his advice from the lesson tapes I made.
I worked two jobs during the year and a half I lived there: one doing maintenance for the Junction City Parks Department, and one as a jack-of-all-trades for Finley National Wildlife Refuge between Bellfountain and Corvallis. Then I landed a job in the Anaconda-Pintler Wilderness back in Montana, and that was the end of fiddle lessons.
And where are you?
# Posted on November 29th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
Will
I live about a half hour west of Corvallis near the small town of Alsea. We are in the shadow of lovely Mary's Peak, the highest mountain in the coastal range.
I also took a few lessons from Linda many years ago...I'm sure she still plays in the Eugene area.
I've had some good times watching the geese, hawks and occasional eagle at Finley with my kids. 1988 was the year we came to our present home.
# Posted on November 30th 2002 by 1whoknows
Re: Leaning on it - a fiddler's question
The last post to this thread 5.1/2 years ago - this is the stuff this site is (was?) made of.
Read, absorb, learn.
It also shows the true characters of some of the great contributors here.
# Posted on June 19th 2008 by domnull