Doing a search of other threads I’ve seen questions about pain from fiddlers, banjo players, flute players, mandolin and guitar players (interesting didn’t see any from bodhran players?!? ). However, I couldn’t find anything strictly related to finger picking stringed instruments, and wanted to ask. I’ve been playing (guitar) for about the last 8 months with a chronic, low amount of pain- usually nothing too bad but have noticed that if I finger pick a lot, the pain for days afterwards is much worse (at the worst I cannot turn my wrist, hold anything heavy or even hold a pen). It’s the tendon running from the thumb up the wrist. Left hand pain is manageable, but right hand can be bad and seems to be caused by thumb angle and extension (I don’t think it’s a tension thing).
I was going to pick up a thumb pick to see if I could tweak the angle and minimize the extension, hoping that will help a bit (though am a bit afraid that the damage may already be done). Things aren’t too bad if I’m just strumming chords with a plectrum, but I know I’m not particularly talented with it to be flatpicking tunes. I love the fingerpicking style, it seems to come more naturally, and I love the melodic quality and complexity one can get, so I would rather not have to give it up. I’d love to hear if this has been a problem for anyone else and how they handled it.
Can I look forward to a day without popping ibuprofen? or should I be looking to my bodhran?
don't know much about the physical damage side of finger picking but my advice would be to head straight to a physio or your doc! any pain that lasts that long 'aint good and there is no fairy godmother for musicians that appears in the night to take it away!! i have had alot of trouble with my left hand (fiddler) and didn't treat it in time..the result is that i can't play the way i wanted to, i've since adapted and accepted what i can and can't play...which leads me to point number two; the most important thing for you to be right now is flexible. be prepared to hear things you don't want to, change hand positions etc. its not the end of the road, merely the beginning of a new one. lose control!!
p.s. john joe kelly's right hand's knackered...it got so bad that at one point he could only play one set in each half of flook gigs. hand injuries all over the place in music, mostly back related i'd say
Thanks maryp and Larsheen for your replies. A little bit of (as you said maryp), not quite what I wanted to hear (sad, not happy stories). I certainly don't mind being flexible (if I could flatpick, I would- will definately say I'll give it my best). Funny, I had been in to see my doctor about it and had my left wrist xrayed in February- thought I'd maybe hairlined it when I moved house, but when my supposed "broken left wrist" soon spread to my right- I knew I was in trouble.
ps. I also take back what I said about the bodhran. Hadn't known about John Joe Kelly. its a shame.
I think you've described a physical problem that requires immediate attention. Once you get some level of diagnosis, you might look into acupuncture to see if that might help.
Once you've had a chance to recover, I would try taking a couple of lessons with a classical guitarist to troubleshoot the mechanics of your playing. There could be issues ranging from posture to hand placement, to simply holding too much tension in your hand working in varying combinations creating your problem. Don't try to play through that kind of pain.
Don't look to your bodhran for a totally pain free time, unless you're luckier than some of us. Playing for very long causes my tendonitis to flare up pretty bad.
I'm not a physician, but what you've got there sounds very much like De Quervain's disease - inflammation of the thumb extensor tendon. I had it years ago. Does it hurt to stretch your thumb inthe hitchhiker position? Get yourself to an orthopedist. And, meanwhile, don't aggravate it. Let it rest and apply ice. And Steve's got a good suggestion - find a classical guitar teacher, preferably someone old enough to have accumulated a lot of experience with these problems.
Maybe you did something outside of guitar playing that started the problem. Mine started with holding a weed eater in an awkward position.
It does hurt to do the hitchhiker thumb- luckily I haven't had to hitch too many rides lately. Think you'd make a very good physician, Bob himself How long did it take before it went away for you? I have managed to rest for (a) short periods (a week at most), but I know I'm going to have to bury my guitar to get it out of my sight so I don't play. I think because I'm a relative newbie, there was always a part of me that was thinking "when my hands get stronger...". I'm finally feeling like things are coming together, and am happy at where I was getting to (not fair!). Interesting thing is it doesn't really hurt that much when I'm playing- only the aftermath, so its pretty easy to over do things. Its kind of like when you're working out you don't notice it, but you're paying for it for days after.
Sorry about the bodhran crack Crysania- I do know that there isn't going to be a "safe" instrument anywhere.
I believe many years ago the guitarist Juian Bream had a problem which was seriously affecting his playing. Apparently, so I'm told, it was due to posture/hand placement, and once these had been addressed he recovered.
btw, I don't think I've ever come across a cellist with physical problems attributable to playing the instrument - mental problems, yeah, maybe - which leads me to think that posturally the cello is one of the more efficient and ergonomic instruments.
Well, I had an unusual case that the doctors and therapists and acupuncturists and chiropractors couldn't crack. Apparently, I have a very weird auto-immune system that gets confused and overreacts. I don't want to scare you with the details, but I was out of commission for a very long time. However, several doctors have told me that the condition usually heals within one to three months. They say it usually goes something like this -
Rest, anti-inflammatory drug and ice and/or heat therapy for a few weeks
If not better, a steriod shot into the tendon sheath
If not better, another steriod shot
If not better, a simple surgery that has a very high success rate.
I don't know actual numbers, but I got the impression that most cases resolve within the first two stages. I suspect the actual rate of healing is even better than the doctors think, because a lot of people get better without ever seeing a doctor. I've known three other people who had the condition and all got better within a month or so and never went to a doctor.
That tendon passes through a sheath at the wrist joint. Pressure and friction on the tendon as it passes through the sheath can cause inflammation. Once the tendon gets inflamed, any further pressure or friction can feed the inflammation. It needs time to heal.
Maybe your guitar is not set up correctly for the way you play. I only fingerpick...wouldn't know what to do with a flatpick, 43 years at this and the only times I have had pain is when the set up is wrong. It makes you tense up on top of having a hard to play instrument.
Hand pain is no good, and for sure rest it and have it x-rayed and evaluated. ... but I think after it's better, first try extra light strings for one, and also take it to a repair shop and see how the action is. Maybe try some other guitars to see if they don't hurt you.
You may be tensing up too much because you're a new player. Ease with both hands comes with much practice.
I set up my action way low, just a hair away from buzzing, and use light guage strings. I set a new player friend's guitar way low a while back and gave him extra lights, just so he wouldn't give up in desperation. It is hard on the hands at first. You can even have it lowered to a mild buzz if you play too hard, you can get it set higher when you are more comfy. It's usually just a turn of the truss rod, but don't do it yourself if you don't know how. I suspect most shops will do it free if you buy strings there. If that doesn't help, the guitar may need a neck re-set, a pricey job, and may be worth more than the guitar warrants depending on what it is.
In time you theoretically should build up the hand and wrist muscles to the point where the left doesn't have a death grip on the neck. That grip causes a lot of tension which can mean pain. Ideally your hand should only rest on the back of the neck for a little stabilization and glide freely.
If you are a two finger picker you may feel better leaning another finger or two on the soundboard...people frown on this, some call it "posting" and it is considered a no no, but I naturally gravitate to it, as do many traditional players, especially old time American players... Doc Watson for one, but ultimately when I need to be a three finger picker I can easily pick the whole hand up. Again, comes with practice, as does ease of playing..... but please get the action and your hands evaluated. A proper action should not be hard to play.
Another very good reason for getting rid of the dreaded left-hand death grip when playing the guitar is that it deadens the tone. The reason is the neck and pegbox are an integral part of the overall vibrating structure. For instance, if you get someone to grip the pegbox hard when you're playing you should hear the tone change - some of the resonance departs. Same applies to the fiddle and other "necked" instruments.
btw, the reference in my previous post was to Julian Bream.
I have heard of some great players getting things like locked pinkies that are painful for a long time, i never had that bad luck, wonder if it's from the playing or something else?
Great stuff! Went back to do some figuring and found that I am posting a bit on my pinky- don't know when that started, when I began I was strictly 'pima' and now am only two or three-fingering. May be part of the problem as it makes my thumb extend more when it could be floating, I think. Haven't been too worried about the left-hand and the death grip, but notice it most often with Barre chords, so there it definately could be happening. At this point I can't quite distinguish between growing pains and bad habits, but it would be great if I can nip a bad habit now. And as luck has it, I'm due for a new set of strings (my G string is starting to buzz a bit- no comments please ) so will see what I can do about getting some lights, and someone to set it up for me. Next question is, can I trust anyone or should I be seeking a luthier specifically?
"btw, the reference in my previous post was to Julian Bream."
Trevor, my reference was to your reference to the cello being more ergonomic. Have you seen Galbraith and his 8-stringer? He even has a long endpin on it that rests on a special resonator box.
Search Google for "trigger thumb." Not sure if this is your problem, but my accordion playing wife developed trigger thumb and lived with it until it was nearly impossible to play. Eventually she had the simple surgery to fix it. Took about 4 weeks to recoop, but she's had no problems since (been several years now) and she plays a lot.
Your RH position intrigues me - are you playing with thumb at right angles to the strings, roughly parallel to the slightly curved fingers, or with thumb parrallel to the strings ? Using ball of thumb or thumbnail ? I find the thumb-at-right-angle position quite stressed.
My normal fingerpicking I use a thumbpick, it balances out nicely against fingernails, but I also use plectrum + 2nd and third fingers as an alternate, gives you the plectrum if you need flat-pick, plus you can drop in fingerpicking into the middle of it.
But, yes, see a good doc and get it sorted.
Hi Guernsey- I'm at work so I'm playing air guitar to answer your question, but I think I'd say I'm actually at 45 degrees from the strings. I'm about halfway from being parallel and straight on to the strings- is this what you mean by right angle?. Mostly doing this so I can use the nail. I was figuring that the thumbpick would allow me to be more parallel. I think, going back to the hitchhiker thumb analogy, its lifting (and holding) the thumb up, perhaps when I shouldn't be.
I use a thumbpick, maybe that will work for you a bit?
A luthier is the ideal choice for setup, but a good guitar shop with a repair dept. should be able to handle it if they have been around a good while and have happy repair customers.
I'd try just the lighter strings first. Usually after that they will adjust the truss rod, a two minute operation (if it has one) at most. If your G string is buzzing....ha ha... mine slips a lot.... it may indicate a too low action or too high fret, so likely your neck set isn't way high. Could just be the strings and your position. have someone look at it, and if it doesn't helo have someone look at you!
About 8 years ago, I had the hand/thumb pain and also numbness in my arm. Had to sell my jumbo guitar and get an OM size which is not as deep. I had the hand surgery (reamed out the tendon tunnel) since I am serious about playing for the rest of my life. I don't trust the steroids. Had a cast for 4 weeks and haven't had a problem since.
I also use a thumb pick. Not only does it change the angle, but since the thumb pick makes those notes louder, I almost subconsciously compensate by playing harder with my fingers. Now they are stronger, and my playing is much more "present."
Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
Doing a search of other threads I’ve seen questions about pain from fiddlers, banjo players, flute players, mandolin and guitar players (interesting didn’t see any from bodhran players?!?
). However, I couldn’t find anything strictly related to finger picking stringed instruments, and wanted to ask. I’ve been playing (guitar) for about the last 8 months with a chronic, low amount of pain- usually nothing too bad but have noticed that if I finger pick a lot, the pain for days afterwards is much worse (at the worst I cannot turn my wrist, hold anything heavy or even hold a pen). It’s the tendon running from the thumb up the wrist. Left hand pain is manageable, but right hand can be bad and seems to be caused by thumb angle and extension (I don’t think it’s a tension thing).
I was going to pick up a thumb pick to see if I could tweak the angle and minimize the extension, hoping that will help a bit (though am a bit afraid that the damage may already be done). Things aren’t too bad if I’m just strumming chords with a plectrum, but I know I’m not particularly talented with it to be flatpicking tunes. I love the fingerpicking style, it seems to come more naturally, and I love the melodic quality and complexity one can get, so I would rather not have to give it up. I’d love to hear if this has been a problem for anyone else and how they handled it.
Can I look forward to a day without popping ibuprofen? or should I be looking to my bodhran?
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by Cailin Rua
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
don't know much about the physical damage side of finger picking but my advice would be to head straight to a physio or your doc! any pain that lasts that long 'aint good and there is no fairy godmother for musicians that appears in the night to take it away!! i have had alot of trouble with my left hand (fiddler) and didn't treat it in time..the result is that i can't play the way i wanted to, i've since adapted and accepted what i can and can't play...which leads me to point number two; the most important thing for you to be right now is flexible. be prepared to hear things you don't want to, change hand positions etc. its not the end of the road, merely the beginning of a new one. lose control!!
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by maryp
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
p.s. john joe kelly's right hand's knackered...it got so bad that at one point he could only play one set in each half of flook gigs. hand injuries all over the place in music, mostly back related i'd say
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by maryp
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
Thanks maryp and Larsheen for your replies. A little bit of (as you said maryp), not quite what I wanted to hear (sad, not happy stories). I certainly don't mind being flexible (if I could flatpick, I would- will definately say I'll give it my best). Funny, I had been in to see my doctor about it and had my left wrist xrayed in February- thought I'd maybe hairlined it when I moved house, but when my supposed "broken left wrist" soon spread to my right- I knew I was in trouble.
ps. I also take back what I said about the bodhran. Hadn't known about John Joe Kelly. its a shame.
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by Cailin Rua
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
I think you've described a physical problem that requires immediate attention. Once you get some level of diagnosis, you might look into acupuncture to see if that might help.
Once you've had a chance to recover, I would try taking a couple of lessons with a classical guitarist to troubleshoot the mechanics of your playing. There could be issues ranging from posture to hand placement, to simply holding too much tension in your hand working in varying combinations creating your problem. Don't try to play through that kind of pain.
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by Steve L
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
Don't look to your bodhran for a totally pain free time, unless you're luckier than some of us. Playing for very long causes my tendonitis to flare up pretty bad.
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by Crysania
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
I'm not a physician, but what you've got there sounds very much like De Quervain's disease - inflammation of the thumb extensor tendon. I had it years ago. Does it hurt to stretch your thumb inthe hitchhiker position? Get yourself to an orthopedist. And, meanwhile, don't aggravate it. Let it rest and apply ice. And Steve's got a good suggestion - find a classical guitar teacher, preferably someone old enough to have accumulated a lot of experience with these problems.
Maybe you did something outside of guitar playing that started the problem. Mine started with holding a weed eater in an awkward position.
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
It does hurt to do the hitchhiker thumb- luckily I haven't had to hitch too many rides lately. Think you'd make a very good physician, Bob himself
How long did it take before it went away for you? I have managed to rest for (a) short periods (a week at most), but I know I'm going to have to bury my guitar to get it out of my sight so I don't play. I think because I'm a relative newbie, there was always a part of me that was thinking "when my hands get stronger...". I'm finally feeling like things are coming together, and am happy at where I was getting to (not fair!). Interesting thing is it doesn't really hurt that much when I'm playing- only the aftermath, so its pretty easy to over do things. Its kind of like when you're working out you don't notice it, but you're paying for it for days after.
Sorry about the bodhran crack Crysania- I do know that there isn't going to be a "safe" instrument anywhere.
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by Cailin Rua
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
I believe many years ago the guitarist Juian Bream had a problem which was seriously affecting his playing. Apparently, so I'm told, it was due to posture/hand placement, and once these had been addressed he recovered.
- which leads me to think that posturally the cello is one of the more efficient and ergonomic instruments.
btw, I don't think I've ever come across a cellist with physical problems attributable to playing the instrument - mental problems, yeah, maybe
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
Well, I had an unusual case that the doctors and therapists and acupuncturists and chiropractors couldn't crack. Apparently, I have a very weird auto-immune system that gets confused and overreacts. I don't want to scare you with the details, but I was out of commission for a very long time. However, several doctors have told me that the condition usually heals within one to three months. They say it usually goes something like this -
Rest, anti-inflammatory drug and ice and/or heat therapy for a few weeks
If not better, a steriod shot into the tendon sheath
If not better, another steriod shot
If not better, a simple surgery that has a very high success rate.
I don't know actual numbers, but I got the impression that most cases resolve within the first two stages. I suspect the actual rate of healing is even better than the doctors think, because a lot of people get better without ever seeing a doctor. I've known three other people who had the condition and all got better within a month or so and never went to a doctor.
That tendon passes through a sheath at the wrist joint. Pressure and friction on the tendon as it passes through the sheath can cause inflammation. Once the tendon gets inflamed, any further pressure or friction can feed the inflammation. It needs time to heal.
Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
I think you're right, lazyhound. That's what drove Paul Galbraith to adapt his guitar playing - and his guitar - to the cello position.
http://www.paul-galbraith.com/
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
Maybe your guitar is not set up correctly for the way you play. I only fingerpick...wouldn't know what to do with a flatpick, 43 years at this and the only times I have had pain is when the set up is wrong. It makes you tense up on top of having a hard to play instrument.
Hand pain is no good, and for sure rest it and have it x-rayed and evaluated. ... but I think after it's better, first try extra light strings for one, and also take it to a repair shop and see how the action is. Maybe try some other guitars to see if they don't hurt you.
You may be tensing up too much because you're a new player. Ease with both hands comes with much practice.
I set up my action way low, just a hair away from buzzing, and use light guage strings. I set a new player friend's guitar way low a while back and gave him extra lights, just so he wouldn't give up in desperation. It is hard on the hands at first. You can even have it lowered to a mild buzz if you play too hard, you can get it set higher when you are more comfy. It's usually just a turn of the truss rod, but don't do it yourself if you don't know how. I suspect most shops will do it free if you buy strings there. If that doesn't help, the guitar may need a neck re-set, a pricey job, and may be worth more than the guitar warrants depending on what it is.
In time you theoretically should build up the hand and wrist muscles to the point where the left doesn't have a death grip on the neck. That grip causes a lot of tension which can mean pain. Ideally your hand should only rest on the back of the neck for a little stabilization and glide freely.
If you are a two finger picker you may feel better leaning another finger or two on the soundboard...people frown on this, some call it "posting" and it is considered a no no, but I naturally gravitate to it, as do many traditional players, especially old time American players... Doc Watson for one, but ultimately when I need to be a three finger picker I can easily pick the whole hand up. Again, comes with practice, as does ease of playing..... but please get the action and your hands evaluated. A proper action should not be hard to play.
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
Another very good reason for getting rid of the dreaded left-hand death grip when playing the guitar is that it deadens the tone. The reason is the neck and pegbox are an integral part of the overall vibrating structure. For instance, if you get someone to grip the pegbox hard when you're playing you should hear the tone change - some of the resonance departs. Same applies to the fiddle and other "necked" instruments.
btw, the reference in my previous post was to Julian Bream.
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
I have heard of some great players getting things like locked pinkies that are painful for a long time, i never had that bad luck, wonder if it's from the playing or something else?
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
Great stuff! Went back to do some figuring and found that I am posting a bit on my pinky- don't know when that started, when I began I was strictly 'pima' and now am only two or three-fingering. May be part of the problem as it makes my thumb extend more when it could be floating, I think. Haven't been too worried about the left-hand and the death grip, but notice it most often with Barre chords, so there it definately could be happening. At this point I can't quite distinguish between growing pains and bad habits, but it would be great if I can nip a bad habit now. And as luck has it, I'm due for a new set of strings (my G string is starting to buzz a bit- no comments please
) so will see what I can do about getting some lights, and someone to set it up for me. Next question is, can I trust anyone or should I be seeking a luthier specifically?
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by Cailin Rua
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
"btw, the reference in my previous post was to Julian Bream."
Trevor, my reference was to your reference to the cello being more ergonomic. Have you seen Galbraith and his 8-stringer? He even has a long endpin on it that rests on a special resonator box.
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
Search Google for "trigger thumb." Not sure if this is your problem, but my accordion playing wife developed trigger thumb and lived with it until it was nearly impossible to play. Eventually she had the simple surgery to fix it. Took about 4 weeks to recoop, but she's had no problems since (been several years now) and she plays a lot.
Peace...
--gw
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by GDub
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
Your RH position intrigues me - are you playing with thumb at right angles to the strings, roughly parallel to the slightly curved fingers, or with thumb parrallel to the strings ? Using ball of thumb or thumbnail ? I find the thumb-at-right-angle position quite stressed.
My normal fingerpicking I use a thumbpick, it balances out nicely against fingernails, but I also use plectrum + 2nd and third fingers as an alternate, gives you the plectrum if you need flat-pick, plus you can drop in fingerpicking into the middle of it.
But, yes, see a good doc and get it sorted.
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
Hi Guernsey- I'm at work so I'm playing air guitar to answer your question, but I think I'd say I'm actually at 45 degrees from the strings. I'm about halfway from being parallel and straight on to the strings- is this what you mean by right angle?. Mostly doing this so I can use the nail. I was figuring that the thumbpick would allow me to be more parallel. I think, going back to the hitchhiker thumb analogy, its lifting (and holding) the thumb up, perhaps when I shouldn't be.
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by Cailin Rua
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
I use a thumbpick, maybe that will work for you a bit?
A luthier is the ideal choice for setup, but a good guitar shop with a repair dept. should be able to handle it if they have been around a good while and have happy repair customers.
I'd try just the lighter strings first. Usually after that they will adjust the truss rod, a two minute operation (if it has one) at most. If your G string is buzzing....ha ha... mine slips a lot.... it may indicate a too low action or too high fret, so likely your neck set isn't way high. Could just be the strings and your position. have someone look at it, and if it doesn't helo have someone look at you!
# Posted on August 17th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Flippin' fingerpickin' pain!
Lots of other good advice above.
About 8 years ago, I had the hand/thumb pain and also numbness in my arm. Had to sell my jumbo guitar and get an OM size which is not as deep. I had the hand surgery (reamed out the tendon tunnel) since I am serious about playing for the rest of my life. I don't trust the steroids. Had a cast for 4 weeks and haven't had a problem since.
I also use a thumb pick. Not only does it change the angle, but since the thumb pick makes those notes louder, I almost subconsciously compensate by playing harder with my fingers. Now they are stronger, and my playing is much more "present."
# Posted on September 3rd 2006 by rosamerlot