If you are accompanying (don't like the word strumming!) a reel
|DUDU DUDU|
Then the above would become a sort of double triplet where the second one starts on an up stroke:
|DUDU dud-udu|
Not sure that I would use that but there might be a tune somewhere that would suit that.
If you're having trouble with speed, work up slowly with a metronome. Strum from the elbow, but augment with the wrist when necessary. Try to keep the wrist fluid and relaxed.
Also, mind your string gauge and pick size. I found going from medium to ultra-light strings and using a very thin, medium stiff pick improved my ability to make those quick rhythmic flourishes.
Do you have any idea of the note values involved? Would it be something like
(Eee)3 (Eee)3 - Indicating 2 triplets, or something closer to
E sss sss - a strong 8th note followed by 6 16ths.
What's the rhythmic setting (jig, reel, hornpipe, waltz, etc).
sounds like you might be talking about playing along with a jig, the best technique i have found for this is to use a down-up-down strumming pattern. that way you are always strumming down on the 1 beat and once you get over the initial awkwardness of it [first few times it might not feel right] you'll really be able to groove on it no problem. it may also be a flourish which is more common in gypsy jazz and thats where it comes out as a sort of machine gun like strum... if none of this makes sense let me know!
Thanks for your responses guys. Its mostly in jigs, where the accompaniment is going along at a steady pace but as kdeeter says, its a kind of flourish.
It seems to be becoming more and more common in accompaniments. i think kdeeter, you know what i mean - any tips for perfecting this flourish?
There are those who strum jigs DUD UDU, which looks like it might be easier, but to do it right, you have to put emphasis on the upbeat in the second part, which is not as easy as it looks.
Although you can also do a D-U D-U kind of quarter note, eigth note pattern, which is more of a single jig kind of a rhythm--you hear that from Irish piano accompanists quite a bit, kind of a loping feel, with a bass note where the guitarist would put a down stroke and the chord playing where the guitarist would put an up stroke. I used this quite a bit when I started accompanying this music, and still use it when I am feeling lazy, or people are banging along at high speed.
KC G has good input, you must stay loose, and strum from the elbow, not the wrist, to get up to speed. This is the most important point that my guitar teacher has made during lessons I have been taking--and any point that can penetrate the thick skull of an old dog like me is worth paying attention to!
You are going to be moving fast enough that you need to rely on instinct, if you try to think through what you are doing, you are not going to move fast enough. Like KC G said, starting with the patterns slow, and using a metronome to slowly work up to speed can be very fruitful (if not very fun).
I don’t like the idea of patterns, or pitching DUD DUD versus
DUD UDU
What you want to do is to avoid pattern strumming which can
sound predictable, but more importantly all tunes are different
and you want to able to put emphasis at any stage, whenever
you want.
Start off with stricy Down/Up strumming
DUD UDU isn’t really strict Down Up as people who use it
might play two bars of a jig like this (eg where the don’t play
the second beat of each bar)
1x3 456 1x3 456
D D UDU D D UDU
Or likewise a DUD DUD would play the same like this:
1x3 456 1x3 456
D D DUD D D DUD
In a strict up and down the above two bars would be played like
1x3 456 1x3 456
DxU DUD UxD UDU
It takes a bit of time to get used to “strict” Down/Up, but once
you do, you have far more control than you would have when
relying on patterns. You control your hand rather than vice-
versa. The dog wags the tail rather than the tail wagging the
dog.
ALL that aside, I believe you’re question was about the rhythm
flourishes, I hope you found an answer in the links above…
but a great aid to backing is to take a tune, learn the melody
with ornamentation (triplets mainly) on the guitar…and the
come back to backing putting in your triplet strumming where
you had it in the melody – does that make any sense ?
Good point, BegF, DUD DUD is a good foundation, but you also have to mix in other strumming patterns as well--too much of one pattern makes for a dull contribution by the accompanist! Also, even if you don't change strumming patterns, you can make DUD DUD more interesting by accenting different strums. There are a lot of tools available!
“I don’t like the idea of patterns, or pitching DUD DUD versus
DUD UDU”
I used to advocate strict DUD DUD in playing tunes until I realized that I violate it after every triplet and during some string crossings. I still mainly follow that pattern because that’s how my arm best feels the rhythm, but I do whatever flows most easily to get out of a tight spot.
That was a good analysis, Beg, but I have trouble with this part:
”It takes a bit of time to get used to “strict” Down/Up, but once
you do, you have far more control than you would have when
relying on patterns. You control your hand rather than vice-
versa. The dog wags the tail rather than the tail wagging the
dog.”
For me, “strict” Down/Up as you describe it interferes with my sense of the rhythmic flow (I’ve tried it). My arm wants to feel a steady pattern in synch with the rhythm. The arm keeps moving in the pattern even though it might not hit the strings on each pass. Maybe it’s a crutch, but I fall down without it. Do you play a strict Down/Up?
I was DUD UDU then DUD DUD , where the D and the U
would always be in the same place regardless of leaving out a
beat (I think that’s what you’re describing)
ie DUD DUD as your basis might be
D-D DUD or DUD D-D etc
But I’m more of a strict up and down now.
Actually I suppose if I’m honest I’m just in the process of
getting out of that, as I often go back to the old ways (a bit of a
crutch I suppose)
Use of the metronome is good to get out of it – I know a lot of
people hate them, but learning out to play with and around the
beats with a metronome is probably the best way of not
sounding like one.
Are you asking about how to strum a triplet (for example for use at the end of a part of tune)? A kind of, 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 1 and 2 and -1 2 3- 4? (where the -1 2 3- is kind of slightly rushed, gabbled effect if you were speaking it)? If this is what you mean, it's not easy, practicing constantly is the best way, keep the wrist lose, almost start to change direction before you've finished the previous motion. The motion doesn't come from the wrist, but not from flexing the elbow either; put your elbow on a desk/other flat surface and rotate your arm so you're looking down on the top of the wrist, then the bottom of it. It's that kind of motion, but against the guitar. It's the kind of thing that's gonna hurt at first, so take it easy, practice at slow speeds (and at your own risk!) initially.
If that wasn't what you mean, feel free to ignore that, it was the one thing no one else had really covered. Bear in mind DUD DUD is only really suitable for single and double jigs; 4/4 time tunes prefer a DUDU style rhythm. When flat picking tunes, try to stick to this as closely as possible, avoid runs of DDDD / UUUU etc. I don't like thin picks, you tend to get alot of pick noise relative tp chord, there's less attack on the strum so you get a much more droney effect - personal preference I suppose.
One method that helps me is to use a count combined with the DUD movements.
i.e. in jigs it would be 1-2-3-4-5-6, with emphasis on the 1 and 4, each of which would be a stronger down or up beat.
I've also used a 1-**-3-4-5-6 pattern, skipping any stroke of the pick on the second beat which becomes an 8th rest, and acentuating the 1 and 4 beat again
i.e 1-**3,4,5,6 could be D ** D DUD, D** D DUD;
this pattern can be used with the bodhran as well;
Of course one can combine the two patterns as:
DUD DUD, D**D DUD, DUD DUD, etc.
As someone above said. it depends on the tune as well; you have to feel the tune. I've even used a simple downstroke on the 1 and 4 beats at various point in the tune (in 6/8 time)
Another area I need help with is in being able to memorize the chord patterns for the multitude of tune we play. I know the chords in each key, and I know that it usually works out to be the 1-4-5 chord. But sometimes I'm not sure which chord the tune is returning to as its played. Of course I can sit down and wrute them all out for each tune I play, but I'm trying to get away from the bain of looking at sheet music when playing with other people. Thanks for your suggestions.
Strumming for reels is very easy - all you have to do is practice a lot
Being able to strum to every note played in a reel is useful, but you don't have to do it. Work on different patterns. Listen to what different players do with it. See what works for you.
As to the other problem you have, it's best to learn the theory behind backing. Fool around with different chords while backing (best when you play along with a recording - session mates can get rather annoyed if you search for a proper progression for the length of an evening - believe me, been there, done that, got a T-shirt). Try to introduce changes in every repeat of a tune. Record yourself and see if it sounds interesting.
Another good idea is to listen to the same tune in different arrangements and see what the profs have done with it. Then learn a bit of one and a bit of the other, and find the way that suits you most. Also, it's good to observe the patterns and rules of playing chords so that you don't get stuck somewhere on the way.
And the worst part of it all - it has to be played through A LOT.
In a longer while you should be able to remember either chords you like best, or be able to create new arrangements on the fly.
Good advice from Janek.
Also remember not to lose the beat during those reels. It is important to work in a good solid downbeat every once in a while to keep the rhythm steady. Sometimes, if you are working to get that fast DUDU pattern going, you can lose the downbeat--and since a primary purpose of accompanying is keeping the beat, no amount of flash and speed can make up for that loss.
As for chords, just keep working on things, and doing what you can to learn about chord theory--after a while, you will find that you can almost predict where the next chord can be, even on a tune you never heard before, and by the second time through most new tunes, be ready to jump in with an appropriate accompaniment.
Good luck and enjoy!
guitar strumming
guitar strumming
im looking for some guidance on a guitar strumming technique but i can hardly even find the words to describe it!
its like a triplet but not quite! It seems to be made with a sharp down-up-down-up-down-up but i cant quite get it fast enough for it to fit in!
Does anyone know what im talking about?!!!
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by Gersfanno1
Re: guitar strumming
If you are accompanying (don't like the word strumming!) a reel
|DUDU DUDU|
Then the above would become a sort of double triplet where the second one starts on an up stroke:
|DUDU dud-udu|
Not sure that I would use that but there might be a tune somewhere that would suit that.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Donough
Re: guitar strumming
If you're having trouble with speed, work up slowly with a metronome. Strum from the elbow, but augment with the wrist when necessary. Try to keep the wrist fluid and relaxed.
Also, mind your string gauge and pick size. I found going from medium to ultra-light strings and using a very thin, medium stiff pick improved my ability to make those quick rhythmic flourishes.
Do you have any idea of the note values involved? Would it be something like
(Eee)3 (Eee)3 - Indicating 2 triplets, or something closer to
E sss sss - a strong 8th note followed by 6 16ths.
What's the rhythmic setting (jig, reel, hornpipe, waltz, etc).
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by KC Gross
Re: guitar strumming
sounds like you might be talking about playing along with a jig, the best technique i have found for this is to use a down-up-down strumming pattern. that way you are always strumming down on the 1 beat and once you get over the initial awkwardness of it [first few times it might not feel right] you'll really be able to groove on it no problem. it may also be a flourish which is more common in gypsy jazz and thats where it comes out as a sort of machine gun like strum... if none of this makes sense let me know!
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by kdeeter
Re: guitar strumming
Thanks for your responses guys. Its mostly in jigs, where the accompaniment is going along at a steady pace but as kdeeter says, its a kind of flourish.
It seems to be becoming more and more common in accompaniments. i think kdeeter, you know what i mean - any tips for perfecting this flourish?
cheers
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Gersfanno1
Re: guitar strumming
These might be of use...
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/2914/comments#comment57501
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/3580/comments#comment71599
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by BegF
Re: guitar strumming
DUD DUD is the best pattern for jigs.
There are those who strum jigs DUD UDU, which looks like it might be easier, but to do it right, you have to put emphasis on the upbeat in the second part, which is not as easy as it looks.
Although you can also do a D-U D-U kind of quarter note, eigth note pattern, which is more of a single jig kind of a rhythm--you hear that from Irish piano accompanists quite a bit, kind of a loping feel, with a bass note where the guitarist would put a down stroke and the chord playing where the guitarist would put an up stroke. I used this quite a bit when I started accompanying this music, and still use it when I am feeling lazy, or people are banging along at high speed.
KC G has good input, you must stay loose, and strum from the elbow, not the wrist, to get up to speed. This is the most important point that my guitar teacher has made during lessons I have been taking--and any point that can penetrate the thick skull of an old dog like me is worth paying attention to!
You are going to be moving fast enough that you need to rely on instinct, if you try to think through what you are doing, you are not going to move fast enough. Like KC G said, starting with the patterns slow, and using a metronome to slowly work up to speed can be very fruitful (if not very fun).
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: guitar strumming
I don’t like the idea of patterns, or pitching DUD DUD versus
DUD UDU
What you want to do is to avoid pattern strumming which can
sound predictable, but more importantly all tunes are different
and you want to able to put emphasis at any stage, whenever
you want.
Start off with stricy Down/Up strumming
DUD UDU isn’t really strict Down Up as people who use it
might play two bars of a jig like this (eg where the don’t play
the second beat of each bar)
1x3 456 1x3 456
D D UDU D D UDU
Or likewise a DUD DUD would play the same like this:
1x3 456 1x3 456
D D DUD D D DUD
In a strict up and down the above two bars would be played like
1x3 456 1x3 456
DxU DUD UxD UDU
It takes a bit of time to get used to “strict” Down/Up, but once
you do, you have far more control than you would have when
relying on patterns. You control your hand rather than vice-
versa. The dog wags the tail rather than the tail wagging the
dog.
ALL that aside, I believe you’re question was about the rhythm
flourishes, I hope you found an answer in the links above…
but a great aid to backing is to take a tune, learn the melody
with ornamentation (triplets mainly) on the guitar…and the
come back to backing putting in your triplet strumming where
you had it in the melody – does that make any sense ?
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by BegF
Re: guitar strumming
thanks for your help guys!
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Gersfanno1
Re: guitar strumming
Good point, BegF, DUD DUD is a good foundation, but you also have to mix in other strumming patterns as well--too much of one pattern makes for a dull contribution by the accompanist! Also, even if you don't change strumming patterns, you can make DUD DUD more interesting by accenting different strums. There are a lot of tools available!
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: guitar strumming
“I don’t like the idea of patterns, or pitching DUD DUD versus
DUD UDU”
I used to advocate strict DUD DUD in playing tunes until I realized that I violate it after every triplet and during some string crossings. I still mainly follow that pattern because that’s how my arm best feels the rhythm, but I do whatever flows most easily to get out of a tight spot.
That was a good analysis, Beg, but I have trouble with this part:
”It takes a bit of time to get used to “strict” Down/Up, but once
you do, you have far more control than you would have when
relying on patterns. You control your hand rather than vice-
versa. The dog wags the tail rather than the tail wagging the
dog.”
For me, “strict” Down/Up as you describe it interferes with my sense of the rhythmic flow (I’ve tried it). My arm wants to feel a steady pattern in synch with the rhythm. The arm keeps moving in the pattern even though it might not hit the strings on each pass. Maybe it’s a crutch, but I fall down without it. Do you play a strict Down/Up?
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: guitar strumming
I suppose I switch a lot.
I was DUD UDU then DUD DUD , where the D and the U
would always be in the same place regardless of leaving out a
beat (I think that’s what you’re describing)
ie DUD DUD as your basis might be
D-D DUD or DUD D-D etc
But I’m more of a strict up and down now.
Actually I suppose if I’m honest I’m just in the process of
getting out of that, as I often go back to the old ways (a bit of a
crutch I suppose)
Use of the metronome is good to get out of it – I know a lot of
people hate them, but learning out to play with and around the
beats with a metronome is probably the best way of not
sounding like one.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by BegF
Re: guitar strumming
....also I play very few tunes on the guitar, so I'm talking about
backing here when referring to DUD DUD
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by BegF
Re: guitar strumming
Are you asking about how to strum a triplet (for example for use at the end of a part of tune)? A kind of, 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 1 and 2 and -1 2 3- 4? (where the -1 2 3- is kind of slightly rushed, gabbled effect if you were speaking it)? If this is what you mean, it's not easy, practicing constantly is the best way, keep the wrist lose, almost start to change direction before you've finished the previous motion. The motion doesn't come from the wrist, but not from flexing the elbow either; put your elbow on a desk/other flat surface and rotate your arm so you're looking down on the top of the wrist, then the bottom of it. It's that kind of motion, but against the guitar. It's the kind of thing that's gonna hurt at first, so take it easy, practice at slow speeds (and at your own risk!) initially.
If that wasn't what you mean, feel free to ignore that, it was the one thing no one else had really covered. Bear in mind DUD DUD is only really suitable for single and double jigs; 4/4 time tunes prefer a DUDU style rhythm. When flat picking tunes, try to stick to this as closely as possible, avoid runs of DDDD / UUUU etc. I don't like thin picks, you tend to get alot of pick noise relative tp chord, there's less attack on the strum so you get a much more droney effect - personal preference I suppose.
Hope that's relavent to what you want.
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by Andy V
Re: guitar strumming
One method that helps me is to use a count combined with the DUD movements.
i.e. in jigs it would be 1-2-3-4-5-6, with emphasis on the 1 and 4, each of which would be a stronger down or up beat.
I've also used a 1-**-3-4-5-6 pattern, skipping any stroke of the pick on the second beat which becomes an 8th rest, and acentuating the 1 and 4 beat again
i.e 1-**3,4,5,6 could be D ** D DUD, D** D DUD;
this pattern can be used with the bodhran as well;
Of course one can combine the two patterns as:
DUD DUD, D**D DUD, DUD DUD, etc.
As someone above said. it depends on the tune as well; you have to feel the tune. I've even used a simple downstroke on the 1 and 4 beats at various point in the tune (in 6/8 time)
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by drbyrnes
Re: guitar strumming for reels
Now, can some of you give me some advice on strums for reels? They get so fast, that I get left in the dust many times! Thanks.
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by drbyrnes
Re: guitar strumming for reels
Another area I need help with is in being able to memorize the chord patterns for the multitude of tune we play. I know the chords in each key, and I know that it usually works out to be the 1-4-5 chord. But sometimes I'm not sure which chord the tune is returning to as its played. Of course I can sit down and wrute them all out for each tune I play, but I'm trying to get away from the bain of looking at sheet music when playing with other people. Thanks for your suggestions.
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by drbyrnes
Re: guitar strumming
Strumming for reels is very easy - all you have to do is practice a lot
Being able to strum to every note played in a reel is useful, but you don't have to do it. Work on different patterns. Listen to what different players do with it. See what works for you.
As to the other problem you have, it's best to learn the theory behind backing. Fool around with different chords while backing (best when you play along with a recording - session mates can get rather annoyed if you search for a proper progression for the length of an evening - believe me, been there, done that, got a T-shirt). Try to introduce changes in every repeat of a tune. Record yourself and see if it sounds interesting.
Another good idea is to listen to the same tune in different arrangements and see what the profs have done with it. Then learn a bit of one and a bit of the other, and find the way that suits you most. Also, it's good to observe the patterns and rules of playing chords so that you don't get stuck somewhere on the way.
And the worst part of it all - it has to be played through A LOT.
In a longer while you should be able to remember either chords you like best, or be able to create new arrangements on the fly.
# Posted on August 1st 2006 by Janek
Re: guitar strumming
Good advice from Janek.
Also remember not to lose the beat during those reels. It is important to work in a good solid downbeat every once in a while to keep the rhythm steady. Sometimes, if you are working to get that fast DUDU pattern going, you can lose the downbeat--and since a primary purpose of accompanying is keeping the beat, no amount of flash and speed can make up for that loss.
As for chords, just keep working on things, and doing what you can to learn about chord theory--after a while, you will find that you can almost predict where the next chord can be, even on a tune you never heard before, and by the second time through most new tunes, be ready to jump in with an appropriate accompaniment.
Good luck and enjoy!
# Posted on August 1st 2006 by AlBrown
Re: guitar strumming
Thanks, Janek and Al. I'll follow your suggestions.
# Posted on April 2nd 2007 by drbyrnes
Re: guitar strumming
is anyone savvy enough that they could post a video on youtube or something showing these techniques?
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by dubnluvn