i dont know about you but i get a bit grumpy when old men tell me i must learn a particular tune because its a regualr session tune . for example the bucks of oranmore. Personally i only like to learn tunes if i think there good. I dont regard the bucks of oranmore as a great tune even tho it is popular. But this does hinder me in sessions because i havent learned tunes everyone knows. And when i play versions of the masons apron i get frowned on for adding extra parts when sessioners just want to play the 2 part version grrrrrrrrrrrr i just suppose its me being a greedy banjo player who only wants to play the real fast show off tunes and not waste my time with the over played ones like harvest home..... im grumpy at 17 ahhhhh
whats your take on learning tunes because there well known?
1. Learn the tunes you like whether they're well known, overplayed, or not. Often the well known ones are really great tunes -- there's a reason why they're so commonly played.
2. If you don't think the Harvest Home is a show-off tune, listen to Paddy Keenan playing it.
3. This has been said here before, but there is more to Irish music and sessions than playing fast show-off tunes. I just returned from Catskills Irish Arts Week, and many (if not most) of the best players in the world play the tunes at a very moderate speed. They don't have anything to prove to the world by ripping through a reel at 843289 miles per hour.
4. You don't go to a session to show off how amazing you are because you can play the 5-part version of the Mason's Apron at high speed and know a zillion other Gm tunes no one else knows. That's not the point.
5. I am not old, nor a man.
6. Check into the difference between "there," "they're," and "their." I'm sure Wikipedia or the OED online can help.
I mainly learn tunes that I like, without a thought of how popular or despised they might be. Occasionally, I’ll learn a tune just so I can play it with friends. I’ll also go to a Chinese restaurant with friends, even though I greatly prefer Thai, just for the crack.
Well, I like Bucks, but that's maybe that's just me.
I recorded so much at Swannanoa last week and am
going to learn it all, for the express purpose of playing it next yearwith the same people.
I think the whole point of sessions is playing tunes with other people, sure it's fun to hear some new tunes but it's great to find out you have a pretty common reportiore..... Now that's not to say I love playing the most boring, common tunes such as Lilting Banshee or,or,or(I really hate this one)Off to California. The best thing is to find out you have a lot of cool, obscure tunes in common with another great musician..... that's why I'm gonna learn all these
awesome tunes from the nightly sessions @the Gathering.
I guess if we ever meet, things might get tense, s mc mullen. I posted a month or so ago, requesting the popular tunes played in sessions. The reason i did this was because i like to play along with other musicians and want to know the top session tunes so i can achieve this. Also, playing the standards can be good because, where u might play one style, someone might use a different technique and therefore u can benefit even further.
TheSilverSpear said it all pretty well--if you want to play along with other people, which means playing a fair amount of common tunes, go to a session. If you want to stick to all the tricky and unusual tunes, and play with yourself, stay home.
Listening to a tune is one thing, and playing it is another! I used to hate Cooley's and the Banshee, but now find it fun to play them with a bunch of people in sessions.
I wish this website didn't attract so many selfish, antisocial people. I used to come here and think "these people are interesting and I want to get to know them and maybe meet them one day in real life". Now most of those people have gone. What a shame.
This is what reading this website is like for me: it's like going back to a place like an old pub that had a great atmosphere and live music, but has now been refurbished and made into a chromey bar with a bistro and young, hip, rude waiting staff who don't recognise your face when you go and order a drink, and where there used to be a room with an old piano and black and white photos on the walls, there's now gambling machines. You go back in the vain hope that you might see someone there who you remember from before and that you might be able to pick up where you left off, but instead you go and look and walk straight out again. Or it's like your favourite restaurant closing down and being converted into a McDonald's drive-thru. I feel sure others feel like this, and it's because of vacuous threads like this one. Where's the joy? Where's the craic? Are you fecking *human*?
It sounds to me that you don't actually like Irish tunes, Grumpy Young Man. Most session types tend to learn a lot of tunes because they like them and that's how they become common. If you want to show off probably you should start a band. Of course your attitude towards these tunes will change as you get older, in a couple of years you'll come to appreciate The Bucks etc. and will learn them without trying, just by being exposed to them so much. There are loads of tunes that I know that I never bothered to "learn" ( like the Silver Spear, The Copperplate ) but can play easily because I've sat through them being played for years. I'm pretty certain you'll go through the same thing. Ignore grumpy people at sessions btw. It aint worth it.
Of course they're fecking grumpy!!! They've come for their weekly play with their mates and they're having it spoilt. I think they have every right to feel grumpy. I hope they're organising secret house sessions for themselves to get some decent tunes in. Poor bastards.
Hmph. I've come to hate the long version of "The Mason's Apron", myself. It's just as old and tired as the Harvest Home, and it's even antisocial to boot. It's awkward/impossible on any instrument but the fiddle/banjo, and it's not even that nice a tune. Those extra parts seem to exist primarily for chest-thumping fiddlers.
You might try asking yourself, S., why you go to sessions? Why do you think other people go to sessions?
While you may feel that the session is your opportunity to prove yourself to the other musicians around you, I'll bet that many of the musicians around you simply enjoy playing tunes and hanging out with friends. Fast, flashy tunes get tiresome quickly, especially if one person is playing them alone. The nice thing about old common tunes is that people know them, and can play along. That way, everybody has more fun.
When I was younger, and just starting to play Irish music (coming from classical violin), I used to think I was a pretty hot musician. I'd go to sessions and pull out tunes like "The Mathematician", "The Mason's Apron", "The Guns of the Magnificent Seven", and the like. The other sessioners would sit these tunes out, leaving me to play all by myself, and think "yeah, I'm fantastic! Everybody else is just so impressed with me that they'd rather listen to me than join in! This is GREAT!".
Meanwhile, all those people around me would be thinking (quite rightly) that I was acting like a jerk. Everyone knew I could play those tunes, and nobody particularly liked them enough to be bothered to learn them. So my insistance on playing them at sessions was little more than a "Hey everybody! LOOK AT ME!!", which is kinda cute the first time but gets really old, really fast.
Now, some years later, I've seen dozens of such relative beginners come into my sessions and do the same tired old stunts. They launch into flashy tune after flashy tune, with no regard for the other people around them. Rather than run the risk of encouraging such antisocial behavior, I'll often just wince with embarassed recognition of my former self, and leave the fiddle on my lap (even when I know the tune they're playing) and let them play by themselves (they clearly aren't interested in being joined, anyway--or they would have made an effort to play something that other people know), all the while thinking how marvellously patient those first sessioners were with me all those years ago.
In the end, the nice thing about those old tunes is that everybody knows them. Yes, they are overplayed, and yes they are often played poorly, but at least they are socially friendly.
If tunes like the Bucks of Oranmore bore you, then the far classier thing to do is to learn a version of it that doesn't bore you. Figure out better ornamentation and variations, or learn a specific setting off a recording of Noel Hill, Paddy Keenan, Joe Derrane, or Michael Coleman. Try and figure out how to make your banjo sound like the pipes or the concertina. This way, you can enjoy playing with the folks around you, and (so long as you do it right) they will enjoy playing with you too. Everybody wins!
"In the end, the nice thing about those old tunes is that everybody knows them."
That's so spot on, Georgi. The more you go to sessions, the more you come to realise that different tunes have different social functions. Strings of obscure tunes can have the effect of excluding people in what is already a delicate social set-up. Session standards have the function of bringing people together and helping people bond socially. In the end, you simply have to realise that it's not all about "me, me, me". If sessions cease to have this social function then you might as well just grab a McDonald's and stay in and watch Big Brother on the telly and not care about what's going on in the world around you.
hmm.... grumpy old men.. i think not... i think they probably see you sitting down with your banjo not playing a fairly common tune (such as the bucks) and think to themselves 'theres a young lad who enjoys playing, he should probably learn this tune, ill tell him the name so he can play it the next time.'
Its called being nice.
And for all you youngsters out there who are looking for input from "big names," let me point out that, besides being a nice guy, Georgi is a pretty darn good musician with a lot of experience, and you should heed his very good advice......
Just to add on to my other post: i myself am a youngun and i am blessed that i often have the opportunity to play with the likes of mary bergin and charlie lennon at local sessions, and if mary or charlie tells me the name of a tune that i should learn, i learn it. Why? ill tell ya why, because they have been playing for longer than i have been on this earth and they know whats good for me and my playing!!! Also i thinks its good to show a little respect to elder musicians and show them that we are actually listening!!!
Oh, and I'll ditto the dictionary recommendation, SMcMullen. "There" and "they're" are different words. Might as well learn the difference.
It's already hard enough to understand and relate to the written word when it's written well. There's no sense in making it harder for your readers to understand you by using bad grammar or poor spelling.
I guess you should learn the tunes that you like, but , if you want to be able to play with others in a session, it's good to know the tunes that they know. So it is good to know as many "session tunes" as possible if you want to join in a session.
Most of the tunes I learn are ones I choose because I like them. But I do like playing tunes in sessions with other people. Hence, I am working my way down the most popular tunes list posted on this site and learning them. I find that once I learn them, I like them!! I probably would not have chosen them, which would have been regretable.
However, I love playing in the woods all by myself and my dog even more. I save my obscure tunes for those occasions.
I'm sorry for my comments above, and especially want to apologize to Jeremy who I'm sure feels insulted. These days I only seem to post on the discussions when I've read something that has made me feel angry and negative. This last one is the last straw. It's not how I want to continue online. So I will make sure not to post here from now on as I don't think I can contribute positively anymore. Thanks for the discussions over the years, and sorry I've ended up being such a grump. See you in the tunes section...
I'm really suprised Dow that a young 17 year old whippersnapper as brought about your demise . . . I thought you would have been able to rise above it . . . anyway happy retirement.
Surely though, if people don't learn the obscure, difficult tunes, these will die out, and the world of traditional music will be a poorer place without them. And, having learnt them, if they don't occasionally play them to people, no one else will chose to learn it, and it still dies out. Not that I'd condone doing it often, but you'd all listen to a slow air and think "ah, what a lovely air, what's it called?", whereas someone playing an obscure reel, hornpipe, 3:2, jig, strathspey, rant etc gets classed as a show off. I can speak only for myself, but I'd happily listen to an obscure tune if the person playing it isn't playing unknown tunes every other time.
If someone is brave enough to do this, and you know the tune, would it kill you to support them by playing, or is it easier to sit back with your instrument down and judge? I regard the initial poster as a show off who may need to consider his session manners, but all tunes deserve to be remembered. With the exception of Shoe the Donkey.
I'm with Dow. But maybe Dow's not with me...I'm going to stay in the recordings section.
Irish Music is about combining the elitist esoteric performance party piece flavour/CD of the week tunes with the gruntingingly familiar played it when I was learning, I can't believe they haven't moved on , how 'boring' tunes.
A party is built around confrontation and conversations but it's nice to have familiar touchstones to agree on. Just like playing music. Find an agreeable mix and get on with it. The whole party doesn't have to stop to listen to your point of view, but it is a thing of true beauty when art movement and music combine into a 'common' theme.
Sorry Dow, I didn't find your "last post" grumpy at all.
See you on the B side.
Ive heard it all before but take the ego, commercialisation, academics and money out of trad music. Whats left is trad music and trad players who play from inside out not outside in, players that play with soul and feeling and not technique as an end for its self. It is no wonder that at 17 a pup thinks the way he does, he hates the bucks but he submitts it as one of his tunes? Playing music is not about scoring points or about ego its about learning to run a phrase how to tie the phrases together so the tune plays its self when you can do this you,ve arrived and whats more important is you know it yourself sheer enjoyment
If you're primarily a performer and you aren't really interested in sessions then you can just learn and play the tunes that strike your fancy. Since you're playing in front of a listening audience a common repertoire doesn't matter. On the other hand, if you enjoy playing with other musicians in sessions then you might want to learn tunes from the common repertoire to fill out your collection, otherwise you'll find yourself sitting and listening during most of the session, and then playing by yourself a lot when it's your turn to start a tune. This can get old really quick.
Keep in mind that one mans boring tune is usually another man's favorite. Also... the tunes that become "famous" usually do so because they are great tunes. What often happens is that people who are learning or only interested in the music as pedestrians over play them; the tunes develop guilt by association. You have to look at each of these common tunes carefully, away from the session, and make them your own so you enjoy playing them. I usually try to find recordings to reference that are better examples than what might be played at the local session.
The Bucks is one of those tunes that people can bang and crash. It has a tendency to get out of control and sloppy. I can see why people get sick of it. But it is also a fun tune to play, and highly social.
I agree with Jack and Georgi about tunes like this, however. To get true joy out of them musically, one has to take them home and get intimate. Or listen to an accomplished musician really dig into it. A similar tune might be Lucy Campbell's, which is a wonderful tune, full of depth. Yet it can also take a banging and crashing.
I disagree with Andy when he said that every tune deserves to be remembered. I think that one should learn tunes that interest them and follow natural selection. Some tunes that are just weak versions of other tunes should die a natural death. Tunes that do not melt well into the tradition can also be forgotten and probably should be forgotten.
With the stock tunes, if you attend sessions regularly enough, and truly listen to the tunes you do not know, you will eventually absorb them anyway. Why spend valuable time learning tunes that do not appeal to you? Afterall, your tune selection is what marks you. Learning a tune is a personal choice, and says something about you. Having said all that, sometimes a tune is appealing because everyone else knows it.
So Dow, that is why I would say that SMc.Mullen is not totally off base. He's right in that I wouldn't really want to play the Harvest Home every week either, or for that matter the Bucks. I like a bit of variety, and new tunes thrown in here and there. It's exciting to hear something I have never heard before.
But I do disagree with playing all "flash" tunes, or the "latest hits" from recording artists. A new tune from someone with a bit of depth is different than a new person with only flash tunes.
Funny enough, Georgi might have been referring to me with my fiddle in my lap. I still don't know the Mathmetician, George! Nor am I really all that interested in learning it...no offense. (Nice to see you in Chicago and catch up!)
first thing i know the difference between the "theres" just im chatting casually so it dosent matter to me. Secondly i never said the old men were grumpy if you look at the post. Thirdly i love sessions because of the social fix it provides me. its not about showing off its about adding variety to sessions. However the only way i can add variety sometimes is by playing show off tunes and HOPE that someone else in the room can join in and play which isnt often likely BUT BLOODY BRILLIANT WHEN SOMONE DOES. cus it sounds so fecking good.
S McM, If nothing else, your post has taught you what makes old men grumpy (and a few other people besides). Thanks for coming in and clarifying your original statement.
More than anything, I think it was the tone and 'tude of this quote that set most of us off: "i just suppose its me being a greedy banjo player who only wants to play the real fast show off tunes and not waste my time with the over played ones like harvest home"
Being a "show off" is generally a bad idea at a session (see the MANY, MANY, MANY discussions on ettiquette).
Variety, however, is a great thing.
I don't think I've gone to a single session in the last year at which I didn't come away with at least one tune I want to learn. However, we play Harvest Home at least once a night, too....
S.McMullen is probably OK.
I don't mind taking a break now and then and listening to someone do something different. Or not listening and going to the bar/toilet/talk to a mate across the room/adjust my stays. There's room for all sorts.
As long as they don't go on forever and take up too much time, especially as closing time (if you're in a pub that has one) draws near and folk want get some final tunes in together.
Most people are not like that though.
It is kind of annoying when pressures of work/family life mean you can only get out once in a while and when you do some tosser takes up the whole night showing off his variations. But how often does that really happen? Not often I'd say.
BTW I've met Dow and he's much younger than me and not at all grumpy in real life.
"some tunes that are just weak versions of other tunes should die a natural death. Tunes that do not melt well into the tradition can also be forgotten and probably should be forgotten" is a valid point, but who makes these decisions? Some of the James Scott Skinner tunes and James Hill tunes are a distinctive style that don't melt well into the tradition - a James Hill hornpipe is instantly recognisable as such. And I think that these tunes deserve to live on, not to be discarded because we find them too hard and therefore deem them show off tunes. Ditto variations on the Mason's Apron - some are fantastic and shouldn't be disregarded because they are rare.
I know many brilliant tunes that aren't in the mainstream, because they are too complicated, too slow, or just not a jig or a reel. It's not up to us to change traditional music, just to preserve it and let any dead bits drop out if we can't revieve them. The concept of a session is much more recent then these tunes, so the principles of "session ettiquete" shouldn't dictate what tunes we learn, and what tunes we play. Otherwise we will be left with a tradition where the simple tunes flourish and those who want to play the harder ones will be branded show-offs.
And Dow, if you aren't coming back into the discussions, your knowledge of Northumbrian music will be sorely missed - there's few people on here who know about it. I still don't know whether a hornpipe should be played AABB or AABBAB?
That might have sounded a bit conceited; what I meant was I know quite alot of tunes that I think are brilliant that I'd never expect to hear in a session.
OK, you asked for our take on this so here is mine. This is meant to be constructive, so please don't dismiss this just because it might not be what you want to hear.
Sessions are all different. Some are flashy, some are laid back, some are fast and tight, some try to be impressive. Some play only very traditional tunes, others include some of the more modern stuff. Some sessions play a LOT of the more jazzy Flook type tunes, while others will include Scottish or Klezmer tunes, etc, etc, etc. So each session has its own "character".
It is very important to select the session that you will be happy with. Don't go to a session that you don't like and try to change it from the inside. These people have been coming to their session for years in order to play the types of tunes they like. If you get your way, they will be in exactly the situation that you are currently in - playing in a session that won't play the tunes they want to. So either way, somebody loses.
You can't go to a horror movie festival and complain that they don't show any romantic comedies. In the same way you can't complain when a session plays traditional Irish music. (Or more accurately, when that particular session plays the tunes that make it what it is.)
What I suggest is one of two options. If this happens very often and the session is generally not enjoyable because of it, find or start a session that is more to your liking. You're basically dating somebody who is not compatible with you - you have to break it off.
The other option (and I strongly recommend this) is to focus on the aspects of the session that you do like. Learn only the tunes you like, but select them only from the tunes you know they play. These guys probably know thousands of tunes between them - there should be enough to keep you busy for years. If not, if you cannot find enough tunes that you like and they like, you're at the wrong session.
I don't think there is anything wrong with introducing new tunes and other influances into an existing session, but it is important to do so in moderation and with consideration. Try to preserve the character of that particular session.
Andy, I don't think you came off sounded conceited, but I don't want to either. I wasn't suggesting that any one person could be the judge of what stays in and what gets kicked out of the tradition. That's why I used the term "natural selection". I appreciate your wanting to save tunes.
This natural selection process must include a broad range of individuals working away at different areas of the tradition. No one person can store it all. That's why I think it is important that people learn the music that speaks to them, and that they can represent well. I am not saying that we shouldn't learn difficult or complicated tunes, but we don't have to learn them all. And their complication should not necessarily place them above the melodic, simple tunes that sing out.
It seems to me that it all comes down to session etiquette; if you regard a session as an audience for your flashy tunes, then you are exploiting a group who meet to play TOGETHER. I've known someone who has become persona non grassa ( sp ? ) because he went to a session determined to "rip it up" and play stuff in the style he enjoyed; the regular sessioneers got up and left on that occasion, leaving him no audience; he's not welcome back.
If you want an adoring audience, then try to work out a way to gather one together for yourself; barging into an established session isn't the way to go about it.
i think alot of you misunderstood me when i said "being a show off banjo player" if tones of voice could be expressed in letters then you would of heard a very relaxed joking manner. i was basically saying I suppose its my fault for being a person who likes to play complicated tunes now and then. i love playing with other musicians and i love playing old favorites like irish washer woman etc..... my post ws being jokey. some of you must take sessions very seriously i percieve them as social boosting drink fests. alas the seriousness of my orginal post was misunderstood. i apoligise to anyone who percived me as complaining if u noticed i said " a bit grumpy" i was just saying it with tonge and cheek saying that it anoys me a bit . its not like it overtly p*sses me off
Yes! A Drinking Fest! That's why I go, anyway. I think I'm the one that mentioned "grumpy old men " ( at 40 I am one ) so sorry, Sean. Yeah, people take sessions kinda seriously sometimes. My favorite complaint is:" you're playing too fast!" I do play fast ( my local used to be Matt Molloy's, so... ) but not "Too Fast". These people usually have never played a session in Galway. Friggin' hippies...
That's the thing - everyone rants on here about stuff that doesn't really bother them that much. This is just a few minutes of your time out of a day when you could be having all sorts of thoughts and moods.
Just like a good session - it's not one type of session or one group of people, it's a meeting place for musicians, and others who can tolerate them, where all sorts of things could happen. And a social-boosting drink fest
Come off it everyone, I bet there isn't one amongst you who hasn't wanted to open up and play out loud and fast so bad it hurts at some time or other. You don't even have to be 17 for it to happen. Let him have his fling, get it off the chest and cool down when he's good and ready. Just because you are at the stage of the music being commonplace, an easy part of your life, and the sess a social gathering doesn't mean everyone else sees it the same way.
(I haven't read the whole thing, just the first few comments)
But, I agree with everyone from Swannanoa (surprise surprise, I go there too!)...there are tunes that are just necessary for sessions. If you don't want to learn them, play solo. Some of them are overplayes (Swannanoa people, if I heard Swallowtail Jig one more time last week, as great a tune it is and as much as I like it...)...but a lot of them are good. And to me, the heart of Irish music is playing with other people (although performing is also quite nice)...chill out. Teach people tunes at sessions, but don't dominate it with tunes that nobody but you knows.It reeeaaaaly ticks people off. And again, there's nothing wrong with less known tunes, most of them are absolutely awesome! They're just not all for sessions (but can become so in time)
learning tunes just because there famous
learning tunes just because there famous
i dont know about you but i get a bit grumpy when old men tell me i must learn a particular tune because its a regualr session tune . for example the bucks of oranmore. Personally i only like to learn tunes if i think there good. I dont regard the bucks of oranmore as a great tune even tho it is popular. But this does hinder me in sessions because i havent learned tunes everyone knows. And when i play versions of the masons apron i get frowned on for adding extra parts when sessioners just want to play the 2 part version grrrrrrrrrrrr i just suppose its me being a greedy banjo player who only wants to play the real fast show off tunes and not waste my time with the over played ones like harvest home..... im grumpy at 17 ahhhhh
whats your take on learning tunes because there well known?
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Sessions are a social function ... not a competition.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
This is probably a wind up.
1. Learn the tunes you like whether they're well known, overplayed, or not. Often the well known ones are really great tunes -- there's a reason why they're so commonly played.
2. If you don't think the Harvest Home is a show-off tune, listen to Paddy Keenan playing it.
3. This has been said here before, but there is more to Irish music and sessions than playing fast show-off tunes. I just returned from Catskills Irish Arts Week, and many (if not most) of the best players in the world play the tunes at a very moderate speed. They don't have anything to prove to the world by ripping through a reel at 843289 miles per hour.
4. You don't go to a session to show off how amazing you are because you can play the 5-part version of the Mason's Apron at high speed and know a zillion other Gm tunes no one else knows. That's not the point.
5. I am not old, nor a man.
6. Check into the difference between "there," "they're," and "their." I'm sure Wikipedia or the OED online can help.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by DrSilverSpear
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Those of us who went to the session etiquette talk at Swannanoa would echo SS's comments.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
I mainly learn tunes that I like, without a thought of how popular or despised they might be. Occasionally, I’ll learn a tune just so I can play it with friends. I’ll also go to a Chinese restaurant with friends, even though I greatly prefer Thai, just for the crack.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Well, I like Bucks, but that's maybe that's just me.
I recorded so much at Swannanoa last week and am
going to learn it all, for the express purpose of playing it next yearwith the same people.
I think the whole point of sessions is playing tunes with other people, sure it's fun to hear some new tunes but it's great to find out you have a pretty common reportiore..... Now that's not to say I love playing the most boring, common tunes such as Lilting Banshee or,or,or(I really hate this one)Off to California. The best thing is to find out you have a lot of cool, obscure tunes in common with another great musician..... that's why I'm gonna learn all these
awesome tunes from the nightly sessions @the Gathering.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by BE
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
I guess if we ever meet, things might get tense, s mc mullen. I posted a month or so ago, requesting the popular tunes played in sessions. The reason i did this was because i like to play along with other musicians and want to know the top session tunes so i can achieve this. Also, playing the standards can be good because, where u might play one style, someone might use a different technique and therefore u can benefit even further.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by copo24
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
TheSilverSpear said it all pretty well--if you want to play along with other people, which means playing a fair amount of common tunes, go to a session. If you want to stick to all the tricky and unusual tunes, and play with yourself, stay home.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Listening to a tune is one thing, and playing it is another! I used to hate Cooley's and the Banshee, but now find it fun to play them with a bunch of people in sessions.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by slainte
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
I wish this website didn't attract so many selfish, antisocial people. I used to come here and think "these people are interesting and I want to get to know them and maybe meet them one day in real life". Now most of those people have gone. What a shame.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
This is what reading this website is like for me: it's like going back to a place like an old pub that had a great atmosphere and live music, but has now been refurbished and made into a chromey bar with a bistro and young, hip, rude waiting staff who don't recognise your face when you go and order a drink, and where there used to be a room with an old piano and black and white photos on the walls, there's now gambling machines. You go back in the vain hope that you might see someone there who you remember from before and that you might be able to pick up where you left off, but instead you go and look and walk straight out again. Or it's like your favourite restaurant closing down and being converted into a McDonald's drive-thru. I feel sure others feel like this, and it's because of vacuous threads like this one. Where's the joy? Where's the craic? Are you fecking *human*?
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
It sounds to me that you don't actually like Irish tunes, Grumpy Young Man. Most session types tend to learn a lot of tunes because they like them and that's how they become common. If you want to show off probably you should start a band. Of course your attitude towards these tunes will change as you get older, in a couple of years you'll come to appreciate The Bucks etc. and will learn them without trying, just by being exposed to them so much. There are loads of tunes that I know that I never bothered to "learn" ( like the Silver Spear, The Copperplate ) but can play easily because I've sat through them being played for years. I'm pretty certain you'll go through the same thing. Ignore grumpy people at sessions btw. It aint worth it.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Farr
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Dow, you're coming off pretty anti-social there...
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Farr
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Where's the joy? Where's the craic? Why are you posting?
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Farr
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Of course they're fecking grumpy!!! They've come for their weekly play with their mates and they're having it spoilt. I think they have every right to feel grumpy. I hope they're organising secret house sessions for themselves to get some decent tunes in. Poor bastards.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Hmph. I've come to hate the long version of "The Mason's Apron", myself. It's just as old and tired as the Harvest Home, and it's even antisocial to boot. It's awkward/impossible on any instrument but the fiddle/banjo, and it's not even that nice a tune. Those extra parts seem to exist primarily for chest-thumping fiddlers.
You might try asking yourself, S., why you go to sessions? Why do you think other people go to sessions?
While you may feel that the session is your opportunity to prove yourself to the other musicians around you, I'll bet that many of the musicians around you simply enjoy playing tunes and hanging out with friends. Fast, flashy tunes get tiresome quickly, especially if one person is playing them alone. The nice thing about old common tunes is that people know them, and can play along. That way, everybody has more fun.
When I was younger, and just starting to play Irish music (coming from classical violin), I used to think I was a pretty hot musician. I'd go to sessions and pull out tunes like "The Mathematician", "The Mason's Apron", "The Guns of the Magnificent Seven", and the like. The other sessioners would sit these tunes out, leaving me to play all by myself, and think "yeah, I'm fantastic! Everybody else is just so impressed with me that they'd rather listen to me than join in! This is GREAT!".
Meanwhile, all those people around me would be thinking (quite rightly) that I was acting like a jerk. Everyone knew I could play those tunes, and nobody particularly liked them enough to be bothered to learn them. So my insistance on playing them at sessions was little more than a "Hey everybody! LOOK AT ME!!", which is kinda cute the first time but gets really old, really fast.
Now, some years later, I've seen dozens of such relative beginners come into my sessions and do the same tired old stunts. They launch into flashy tune after flashy tune, with no regard for the other people around them. Rather than run the risk of encouraging such antisocial behavior, I'll often just wince with embarassed recognition of my former self, and leave the fiddle on my lap (even when I know the tune they're playing) and let them play by themselves (they clearly aren't interested in being joined, anyway--or they would have made an effort to play something that other people know), all the while thinking how marvellously patient those first sessioners were with me all those years ago.
In the end, the nice thing about those old tunes is that everybody knows them. Yes, they are overplayed, and yes they are often played poorly, but at least they are socially friendly.
If tunes like the Bucks of Oranmore bore you, then the far classier thing to do is to learn a version of it that doesn't bore you. Figure out better ornamentation and variations, or learn a specific setting off a recording of Noel Hill, Paddy Keenan, Joe Derrane, or Michael Coleman. Try and figure out how to make your banjo sound like the pipes or the concertina. This way, you can enjoy playing with the folks around you, and (so long as you do it right) they will enjoy playing with you too. Everybody wins!
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Georgi
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
There, there. There! They're their's.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by browndog
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
"In the end, the nice thing about those old tunes is that everybody knows them."
That's so spot on, Georgi. The more you go to sessions, the more you come to realise that different tunes have different social functions. Strings of obscure tunes can have the effect of excluding people in what is already a delicate social set-up. Session standards have the function of bringing people together and helping people bond socially. In the end, you simply have to realise that it's not all about "me, me, me". If sessions cease to have this social function then you might as well just grab a McDonald's and stay in and watch Big Brother on the telly and not care about what's going on in the world around you.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
hmm.... grumpy old men.. i think not... i think they probably see you sitting down with your banjo not playing a fairly common tune (such as the bucks) and think to themselves 'theres a young lad who enjoys playing, he should probably learn this tune, ill tell him the name so he can play it the next time.'
Its called being nice.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by galway-fiddle
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
And for all you youngsters out there who are looking for input from "big names," let me point out that, besides being a nice guy, Georgi is a pretty darn good musician with a lot of experience, and you should heed his very good advice......
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Just to add on to my other post: i myself am a youngun and i am blessed that i often have the opportunity to play with the likes of mary bergin and charlie lennon at local sessions, and if mary or charlie tells me the name of a tune that i should learn, i learn it. Why? ill tell ya why, because they have been playing for longer than i have been on this earth and they know whats good for me and my playing!!! Also i thinks its good to show a little respect to elder musicians and show them that we are actually listening!!!
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by galway-fiddle
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
I think you have an admirer, Georgi. But id be careful.... all this talk of 'playing with people', your admirer might be a bit hands on
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by copo24
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Ha!
Thanks, Al. Where do I send the check?
Oh, and I'll ditto the dictionary recommendation, SMcMullen. "There" and "they're" are different words. Might as well learn the difference.
It's already hard enough to understand and relate to the written word when it's written well. There's no sense in making it harder for your readers to understand you by using bad grammar or poor spelling.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Georgi
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
I guess you should learn the tunes that you like, but , if you want to be able to play with others in a session, it's good to know the tunes that they know. So it is good to know as many "session tunes" as possible if you want to join in a session.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by zinacef
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Most of the tunes I learn are ones I choose because I like them. But I do like playing tunes in sessions with other people. Hence, I am working my way down the most popular tunes list posted on this site and learning them. I find that once I learn them, I like them!! I probably would not have chosen them, which would have been regretable.
However, I love playing in the woods all by myself and my dog even more. I save my obscure tunes for those occasions.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by feardearg
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
I'm sorry for my comments above, and especially want to apologize to Jeremy who I'm sure feels insulted. These days I only seem to post on the discussions when I've read something that has made me feel angry and negative. This last one is the last straw. It's not how I want to continue online. So I will make sure not to post here from now on as I don't think I can contribute positively anymore. Thanks for the discussions over the years, and sorry I've ended up being such a grump. See you in the tunes section...
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
You will be missed, Dow, grumpy comments and all....
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
I'm really suprised Dow that a young 17 year old whippersnapper as brought about your demise . . . I thought you would have been able to rise above it . . . anyway happy retirement.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Justintime
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Surely though, if people don't learn the obscure, difficult tunes, these will die out, and the world of traditional music will be a poorer place without them. And, having learnt them, if they don't occasionally play them to people, no one else will chose to learn it, and it still dies out. Not that I'd condone doing it often, but you'd all listen to a slow air and think "ah, what a lovely air, what's it called?", whereas someone playing an obscure reel, hornpipe, 3:2, jig, strathspey, rant etc gets classed as a show off. I can speak only for myself, but I'd happily listen to an obscure tune if the person playing it isn't playing unknown tunes every other time.
If someone is brave enough to do this, and you know the tune, would it kill you to support them by playing, or is it easier to sit back with your instrument down and judge? I regard the initial poster as a show off who may need to consider his session manners, but all tunes deserve to be remembered. With the exception of Shoe the Donkey.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Andy V
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
I'm with Dow. But maybe Dow's not with me...I'm going to stay in the recordings section.
Irish Music is about combining the elitist esoteric performance party piece flavour/CD of the week tunes with the gruntingingly familiar played it when I was learning, I can't believe they haven't moved on , how 'boring' tunes.
A party is built around confrontation and conversations but it's nice to have familiar touchstones to agree on. Just like playing music. Find an agreeable mix and get on with it. The whole party doesn't have to stop to listen to your point of view, but it is a thing of true beauty when art movement and music combine into a 'common' theme.
Sorry Dow, I didn't find your "last post" grumpy at all.
See you on the B side.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Greenwiggle
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
There are no boring tunes. There are however plenty of players who play boring settings .
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by woops
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Ive heard it all before but take the ego, commercialisation, academics and money out of trad music. Whats left is trad music and trad players who play from inside out not outside in, players that play with soul and feeling and not technique as an end for its self. It is no wonder that at 17 a pup thinks the way he does, he hates the bucks but he submitts it as one of his tunes? Playing music is not about scoring points or about ego its about learning to run a phrase how to tie the phrases together so the tune plays its self when you can do this you,ve arrived and whats more important is you know it yourself sheer enjoyment
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by brians
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
If you're primarily a performer and you aren't really interested in sessions then you can just learn and play the tunes that strike your fancy. Since you're playing in front of a listening audience a common repertoire doesn't matter. On the other hand, if you enjoy playing with other musicians in sessions then you might want to learn tunes from the common repertoire to fill out your collection, otherwise you'll find yourself sitting and listening during most of the session, and then playing by yourself a lot when it's your turn to start a tune. This can get old really quick.
Keep in mind that one mans boring tune is usually another man's favorite. Also... the tunes that become "famous" usually do so because they are great tunes. What often happens is that people who are learning or only interested in the music as pedestrians over play them; the tunes develop guilt by association. You have to look at each of these common tunes carefully, away from the session, and make them your own so you enjoy playing them. I usually try to find recordings to reference that are better examples than what might be played at the local session.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Consider bluegrass... Ohmmmmmmmmmm!!!
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
There are indeed plenty of boring tunes. Bucks Of Oranmore is
not one of them.
Dow – I know how you feel.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by BegF
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Georgi - way to go
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Just a person
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
The Bucks is one of those tunes that people can bang and crash. It has a tendency to get out of control and sloppy. I can see why people get sick of it. But it is also a fun tune to play, and highly social.
I agree with Jack and Georgi about tunes like this, however. To get true joy out of them musically, one has to take them home and get intimate. Or listen to an accomplished musician really dig into it. A similar tune might be Lucy Campbell's, which is a wonderful tune, full of depth. Yet it can also take a banging and crashing.
I disagree with Andy when he said that every tune deserves to be remembered. I think that one should learn tunes that interest them and follow natural selection. Some tunes that are just weak versions of other tunes should die a natural death. Tunes that do not melt well into the tradition can also be forgotten and probably should be forgotten.
With the stock tunes, if you attend sessions regularly enough, and truly listen to the tunes you do not know, you will eventually absorb them anyway. Why spend valuable time learning tunes that do not appeal to you? Afterall, your tune selection is what marks you. Learning a tune is a personal choice, and says something about you. Having said all that, sometimes a tune is appealing because everyone else knows it.
So Dow, that is why I would say that SMc.Mullen is not totally off base. He's right in that I wouldn't really want to play the Harvest Home every week either, or for that matter the Bucks. I like a bit of variety, and new tunes thrown in here and there. It's exciting to hear something I have never heard before.
But I do disagree with playing all "flash" tunes, or the "latest hits" from recording artists. A new tune from someone with a bit of depth is different than a new person with only flash tunes.
Funny enough, Georgi might have been referring to me with my fiddle in my lap. I still don't know the Mathmetician, George! Nor am I really all that interested in learning it...no offense. (Nice to see you in Chicago and catch up!)
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Jode
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
first thing i know the difference between the "theres" just im chatting casually so it dosent matter to me. Secondly i never said the old men were grumpy if you look at the post. Thirdly i love sessions because of the social fix it provides me. its not about showing off its about adding variety to sessions. However the only way i can add variety sometimes is by playing show off tunes and HOPE that someone else in the room can join in and play which isnt often likely BUT BLOODY BRILLIANT WHEN SOMONE DOES. cus it sounds so fecking good.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
S McM, If nothing else, your post has taught you what makes old men grumpy (and a few other people besides). Thanks for coming in and clarifying your original statement.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
no problem but i dont know where people got the idea that i think that the old men are grumpy i love the old men they have taught me everything i know
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
More than anything, I think it was the tone and 'tude of this quote that set most of us off: "i just suppose its me being a greedy banjo player who only wants to play the real fast show off tunes and not waste my time with the over played ones like harvest home"
Being a "show off" is generally a bad idea at a session (see the MANY, MANY, MANY discussions on ettiquette).
Variety, however, is a great thing.
I don't think I've gone to a single session in the last year at which I didn't come away with at least one tune I want to learn. However, we play Harvest Home at least once a night, too....
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
S.McMullen is probably OK.
I don't mind taking a break now and then and listening to someone do something different. Or not listening and going to the bar/toilet/talk to a mate across the room/adjust my stays. There's room for all sorts.
As long as they don't go on forever and take up too much time, especially as closing time (if you're in a pub that has one) draws near and folk want get some final tunes in together.
Most people are not like that though.
It is kind of annoying when pressures of work/family life mean you can only get out once in a while and when you do some tosser takes up the whole night showing off his variations. But how often does that really happen? Not often I'd say.
BTW I've met Dow and he's much younger than me and not at all grumpy in real life.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Bren
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
"some tunes that are just weak versions of other tunes should die a natural death. Tunes that do not melt well into the tradition can also be forgotten and probably should be forgotten" is a valid point, but who makes these decisions? Some of the James Scott Skinner tunes and James Hill tunes are a distinctive style that don't melt well into the tradition - a James Hill hornpipe is instantly recognisable as such. And I think that these tunes deserve to live on, not to be discarded because we find them too hard and therefore deem them show off tunes. Ditto variations on the Mason's Apron - some are fantastic and shouldn't be disregarded because they are rare.
I know many brilliant tunes that aren't in the mainstream, because they are too complicated, too slow, or just not a jig or a reel. It's not up to us to change traditional music, just to preserve it and let any dead bits drop out if we can't revieve them. The concept of a session is much more recent then these tunes, so the principles of "session ettiquete" shouldn't dictate what tunes we learn, and what tunes we play. Otherwise we will be left with a tradition where the simple tunes flourish and those who want to play the harder ones will be branded show-offs.
And Dow, if you aren't coming back into the discussions, your knowledge of Northumbrian music will be sorely missed - there's few people on here who know about it. I still don't know whether a hornpipe should be played AABB or AABBAB?
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Andy V
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
That might have sounded a bit conceited; what I meant was I know quite alot of tunes that I think are brilliant that I'd never expect to hear in a session.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Andy V
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
OK, you asked for our take on this so here is mine. This is meant to be constructive, so please don't dismiss this just because it might not be what you want to hear.
Sessions are all different. Some are flashy, some are laid back, some are fast and tight, some try to be impressive. Some play only very traditional tunes, others include some of the more modern stuff. Some sessions play a LOT of the more jazzy Flook type tunes, while others will include Scottish or Klezmer tunes, etc, etc, etc. So each session has its own "character".
It is very important to select the session that you will be happy with. Don't go to a session that you don't like and try to change it from the inside. These people have been coming to their session for years in order to play the types of tunes they like. If you get your way, they will be in exactly the situation that you are currently in - playing in a session that won't play the tunes they want to. So either way, somebody loses.
You can't go to a horror movie festival and complain that they don't show any romantic comedies. In the same way you can't complain when a session plays traditional Irish music. (Or more accurately, when that particular session plays the tunes that make it what it is.)
What I suggest is one of two options. If this happens very often and the session is generally not enjoyable because of it, find or start a session that is more to your liking. You're basically dating somebody who is not compatible with you - you have to break it off.
The other option (and I strongly recommend this) is to focus on the aspects of the session that you do like. Learn only the tunes you like, but select them only from the tunes you know they play. These guys probably know thousands of tunes between them - there should be enough to keep you busy for years. If not, if you cannot find enough tunes that you like and they like, you're at the wrong session.
I don't think there is anything wrong with introducing new tunes and other influances into an existing session, but it is important to do so in moderation and with consideration. Try to preserve the character of that particular session.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Shrog
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Andy, I don't think you came off sounded conceited, but I don't want to either. I wasn't suggesting that any one person could be the judge of what stays in and what gets kicked out of the tradition. That's why I used the term "natural selection". I appreciate your wanting to save tunes.
This natural selection process must include a broad range of individuals working away at different areas of the tradition. No one person can store it all. That's why I think it is important that people learn the music that speaks to them, and that they can represent well. I am not saying that we shouldn't learn difficult or complicated tunes, but we don't have to learn them all. And their complication should not necessarily place them above the melodic, simple tunes that sing out.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Jode
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
It seems to me that it all comes down to session etiquette; if you regard a session as an audience for your flashy tunes, then you are exploiting a group who meet to play TOGETHER. I've known someone who has become persona non grassa ( sp ? ) because he went to a session determined to "rip it up" and play stuff in the style he enjoyed; the regular sessioneers got up and left on that occasion, leaving him no audience; he's not welcome back.
If you want an adoring audience, then try to work out a way to gather one together for yourself; barging into an established session isn't the way to go about it.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
i think alot of you misunderstood me when i said "being a show off banjo player" if tones of voice could be expressed in letters then you would of heard a very relaxed joking manner. i was basically saying I suppose its my fault for being a person who likes to play complicated tunes now and then. i love playing with other musicians and i love playing old favorites like irish washer woman etc..... my post ws being jokey. some of you must take sessions very seriously i percieve them as social boosting drink fests. alas the seriousness of my orginal post was misunderstood. i apoligise to anyone who percived me as complaining if u noticed i said " a bit grumpy" i was just saying it with tonge and cheek saying that it anoys me a bit . its not like it overtly p*sses me off
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
p.s i didnt just go to this session ive been going a while
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Yes! A Drinking Fest! That's why I go, anyway. I think I'm the one that mentioned "grumpy old men " ( at 40 I am one ) so sorry, Sean. Yeah, people take sessions kinda seriously sometimes. My favorite complaint is:" you're playing too fast!" I do play fast ( my local used to be Matt Molloy's, so... ) but not "Too Fast". These people usually have never played a session in Galway. Friggin' hippies...
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by Farr
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Oops! forgot to add a smiley face in case people think that I'm that serious. Here: : )
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by Farr
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
That's the thing - everyone rants on here about stuff that doesn't really bother them that much. This is just a few minutes of your time out of a day when you could be having all sorts of thoughts and moods.
Just like a good session - it's not one type of session or one group of people, it's a meeting place for musicians, and others who can tolerate them, where all sorts of things could happen. And a social-boosting drink fest
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by Bren
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Come off it everyone, I bet there isn't one amongst you who hasn't wanted to open up and play out loud and fast so bad it hurts at some time or other. You don't even have to be 17 for it to happen. Let him have his fling, get it off the chest and cool down when he's good and ready. Just because you are at the stage of the music being commonplace, an easy part of your life, and the sess a social gathering doesn't mean everyone else sees it the same way.
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
ive just re read the entire discussion and some people got really riled up by what i said it sincerely wasnt that big of a moan
just a passing comment
slante
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Yeah, people here really rise to it.
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by Farr
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
(I haven't read the whole thing, just the first few comments)
But, I agree with everyone from Swannanoa (surprise surprise, I go there too!)...there are tunes that are just necessary for sessions. If you don't want to learn them, play solo. Some of them are overplayes (Swannanoa people, if I heard Swallowtail Jig one more time last week, as great a tune it is and as much as I like it...)...but a lot of them are good. And to me, the heart of Irish music is playing with other people (although performing is also quite nice)...chill out. Teach people tunes at sessions, but don't dominate it with tunes that nobody but you knows.It reeeaaaaly ticks people off. And again, there's nothing wrong with less known tunes, most of them are absolutely awesome! They're just not all for sessions (but can become so in time)
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by possumawesome
Re: learning tunes just because there famous
Kay I just read everything else...so I guess it's kinda been resolved lol sorry bout that
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by possumawesome