I live in Switzerland, not too far from a number of people who play various forms of trad, but still far enough that I've not been able to get to a session/any other event where I could take my whistle and play it.
I've been learning/playing/making noise on the whistle for coming up to a year now - all self taught, with lots of help from the interweb. I suddenly found myself for a few weeks in the neighborhood of someone who offers lessons. So I contacted him and we worked out that there was only one night that fitted both are schedules. I was particularly interested in seeing what a teacher could bring me - and whether it was worth going out of my way to find a permanent one. The result was as good as could be hoped for from 1 hour with a complete stranger - a lot of time "wasted" due to non-matching repertoires and trying to find out where points for improvement lie. Great fun nonetheless.
One of the things he noted is that I play "as if I mostly play for myself" and that what I needed "is not a teacher, but an audience or a band". He had trouble putting to words exactly what was wrong. Apparently the notes seem to come out just one after the other - I have a fairly legato style and still a rather poor command of ornamentation. He seemed to think that my playing style lacked the communication that you need to have to play for an audience and that the best way to correct it would be to play for people.
I haven't a clue how that translates into differences. There are a number of reasons I won't be playing for/anywhere near people any time soon - most are circumstancial and won't apply in a couple of months. In the meantime, has anyone come across this sort of comment before? And do you have any suggestions as to how to "simulate" the audience feel/show the difference between playing for oneself and playing for others?
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
Hi Greg, I'm not offering advice. Maybe some of the better TWs will give you that. We have some things in common. I play TW too and mostly for myself. I did teach it to kids too, but only as part of my regular teaching duties, music being a required subject, so I opted to teach the whistle. I don't see anything wrong with playing for (that's for, not with?) yourself. That's an audience of one, and I certainly enjoy my own playing.
I listened to a few of your audiofiles, and I think you play nicely, for yourself. Now, if you want to play at sessions, you would need to be playing at least 50% faster I would say. That's the other thing we have in common: I play at less than session speed too. I think you turn the corner from one part to another better than I do. Maybe we could get together in mid-Atlantic for a weekend two-man session. Your tune selection is much different than mine, which slow (airs) or fast (jigs, reels, polkas) is Irish, Irish, Irish . . .
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
Hi Greg - I listened to a couple of your tracks. You sound like a good solid beginner to me. Perhaps what this "teacher" meant was that you have made a good start but you still sound a bit mechanical. I would say that you play pretty carefully/cautiously - at least when you are recording yourself! Your pharasing could be better - and phrasing is how you communicate the tune to your listener. I would have said this is the sort of thing a decent teacher should love to help you with...hmmm. I love it when I get pupils who have a grasp of many basics and just need a nudge here and there. Oh well.
I would normally suggest that somebody like you needs to record themself and listen objectively. Seems like you have been doing that. Sometimes it helps if you don't listen to the recording right away. Let it "cool" for a week, then sit down and listen with an open mind. Then you will maybe hear what you would like to improve in your playing.
I would say again that i think you are doing brilliantly for only a year, so just hang in there. Playing with people who have the sort of style you want, and playing along with recordings, too, will help you move on.
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
hi greg, i listened to one of your audiofiles and you are sounding pretty good for being one year into playing the tin whistle, much better than where i was at after one year i suspect. I think your intuition to get a teacher is on target. this is the best way to progress and make steady progress, although it sounds like you didn't exactly click with the teacher you tried out. And it strikes me that he/she was right about your ornamentation: you're not executing the rolls properly, and the tune i listened to could be considerable helped by some strategic sculpting with a few cuts and/or tonguing. But again, not too shabby at all at this point.
however, i'm a bit puzzled that this teacher would recommend that you join a band of some sort or play for an audience. While certainly more musical exposure is a must, i don't think joining a band is a good way to go nor otherwise putting pressure on yourself by performing for an audience. You're not ready for it and it would be a distraction at this point in your learning curve. This is in my opinion, of course.
I have never heard of a tin whistle teacher saying to a beginner that she/he should get involved in a band unless what this mean is simply playing more with others, which strikes me as good advice especially if the other players are solid players and are willing to help you along.
So i would say that, contrary to the apparent advice you received, you could use a teacher much more at this point than an audience. Now, playing for an audience can really help your playing. but not when you are struggling with the basics.
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
here is an interesting website...they post a song to learn every two weeks (approx) and examples recorded by experienced players and invite members and enthusiasts to record their own versions for critique and or variety. http://www.whistlethis.com
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
Thanks, frozenstiff. The azores it is then ;)
Kris, spot on. I don't actually understand what is wrong with my phrasing - I hear it, but I can't describe it/correct it. I probably do need a teacher for that.
Brendan: which tune did you listen to? I'm wondering where the poor rolls were. You wouldn't happen to have time to show exactly what you mean about "strategic sculpting"?
His specific words were to "form a band" - but I think more in the sense "find some people of similar ability and bounce off each other". But he did seem to think that more character would be forced to emerge from my playing if I had an audience.
Maryfrancis!!!!!!!!!!!!! how come I haven't seen this website before? a jewel! just what I needed!
Thanks all - I'll certainly think about getting myself a teacher asap. Only problem will be a)finding one (at all) and b) finding one that I *do* click with.
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
i was listening to connaughtman's rambles. sure, i'd be happy to help you do some strategic re-deployment of cuts and rolls etc. drop me an email thru this site and i'll put together a sound file. connaughtman's rambles is a lovely tune and it is worth spend time getting it down. i've been scluting that tune for almost ten years now and there's still more gold to be found in it (sorry, i mixed metaphors, but you get the idea).
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
I listened to Palm Sunday and the Connaughtman's rambles. There isn't a lot "wrong" with your playing and especially as you've only been playing one year!
Sections of each tune come across nicely played and musical. I think what you need to work on mainly is your pulse. It's that your timing is occasionally uneven, and I think most beginners run into this. If I were teaching you I would just have you play *slower* until all the notes, even the ornaments, fit exactly to a pulse. If you played with good musicians in a session you would hear this pulse. Maybe that's what the fellow meant.
The most important thing is the timing. I would not use a metronome. Get one of those slowdown things if you don't already have, and use it on bits of your favourite recordings to play along to.
I would also say to play a lot of the rolls in your practicing in order to get them rhythmic and evenly spaced. If your fingers are not doing what you want them to, you just have to get the mechanics down. But if you are not sure what you want the ornaments to sound like rhythmically, you have to put a whistle recording into slowdown and copy the timing. Say for example Mary Bergin, or Bríd O'Donoghue - Tobar an Duchais (solo tin whistle). Slow it down enough so you can work on it along with the recording.
As you do this you will start to hear other things that you can add into your playing, finger articulations and different ways to phrase the tunes. But get the timing first and the rest will come later.
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
sounds fine for one year in.
all good advice above, i'd just say - try to isolate the differences between the recording of you playing the tune and the way you'd hum the tune in your head.
You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
I live in Switzerland, not too far from a number of people who play various forms of trad, but still far enough that I've not been able to get to a session/any other event where I could take my whistle and play it.
I've been learning/playing/making noise on the whistle for coming up to a year now - all self taught, with lots of help from the interweb. I suddenly found myself for a few weeks in the neighborhood of someone who offers lessons. So I contacted him and we worked out that there was only one night that fitted both are schedules. I was particularly interested in seeing what a teacher could bring me - and whether it was worth going out of my way to find a permanent one. The result was as good as could be hoped for from 1 hour with a complete stranger - a lot of time "wasted" due to non-matching repertoires and trying to find out where points for improvement lie. Great fun nonetheless.
One of the things he noted is that I play "as if I mostly play for myself" and that what I needed "is not a teacher, but an audience or a band". He had trouble putting to words exactly what was wrong. Apparently the notes seem to come out just one after the other - I have a fairly legato style and still a rather poor command of ornamentation. He seemed to think that my playing style lacked the communication that you need to have to play for an audience and that the best way to correct it would be to play for people.
I haven't a clue how that translates into differences. There are a number of reasons I won't be playing for/anywhere near people any time soon - most are circumstancial and won't apply in a couple of months. In the meantime, has anyone come across this sort of comment before? And do you have any suggestions as to how to "simulate" the audience feel/show the difference between playing for oneself and playing for others?
Some 2-3 month old recordings can be found here:
http://www.tirno.com/recordings/
Greg
# Posted on July 22nd 2006 by Tirno
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
Hi Greg, I'm not offering advice. Maybe some of the better TWs will give you that. We have some things in common. I play TW too and mostly for myself. I did teach it to kids too, but only as part of my regular teaching duties, music being a required subject, so I opted to teach the whistle. I don't see anything wrong with playing for (that's for, not with?) yourself. That's an audience of one, and I certainly enjoy my own playing.
I listened to a few of your audiofiles, and I think you play nicely, for yourself. Now, if you want to play at sessions, you would need to be playing at least 50% faster I would say. That's the other thing we have in common: I play at less than session speed too. I think you turn the corner from one part to another better than I do. Maybe we could get together in mid-Atlantic for a weekend two-man session. Your tune selection is much different than mine, which slow (airs) or fast (jigs, reels, polkas) is Irish, Irish, Irish . . .
Good luck!
Mairtin
# Posted on July 22nd 2006 by frozenstiff
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
Hi Greg - I listened to a couple of your tracks. You sound like a good solid beginner to me. Perhaps what this "teacher" meant was that you have made a good start but you still sound a bit mechanical. I would say that you play pretty carefully/cautiously - at least when you are recording yourself! Your pharasing could be better - and phrasing is how you communicate the tune to your listener. I would have said this is the sort of thing a decent teacher should love to help you with...hmmm. I love it when I get pupils who have a grasp of many basics and just need a nudge here and there. Oh well.
I would normally suggest that somebody like you needs to record themself and listen objectively. Seems like you have been doing that. Sometimes it helps if you don't listen to the recording right away. Let it "cool" for a week, then sit down and listen with an open mind. Then you will maybe hear what you would like to improve in your playing.
I would say again that i think you are doing brilliantly for only a year, so just hang in there. Playing with people who have the sort of style you want, and playing along with recordings, too, will help you move on.
# Posted on July 22nd 2006 by kris
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
hi greg, i listened to one of your audiofiles and you are sounding pretty good for being one year into playing the tin whistle, much better than where i was at after one year i suspect. I think your intuition to get a teacher is on target. this is the best way to progress and make steady progress, although it sounds like you didn't exactly click with the teacher you tried out. And it strikes me that he/she was right about your ornamentation: you're not executing the rolls properly, and the tune i listened to could be considerable helped by some strategic sculpting with a few cuts and/or tonguing. But again, not too shabby at all at this point.
however, i'm a bit puzzled that this teacher would recommend that you join a band of some sort or play for an audience. While certainly more musical exposure is a must, i don't think joining a band is a good way to go nor otherwise putting pressure on yourself by performing for an audience. You're not ready for it and it would be a distraction at this point in your learning curve. This is in my opinion, of course.
I have never heard of a tin whistle teacher saying to a beginner that she/he should get involved in a band unless what this mean is simply playing more with others, which strikes me as good advice especially if the other players are solid players and are willing to help you along.
So i would say that, contrary to the apparent advice you received, you could use a teacher much more at this point than an audience. Now, playing for an audience can really help your playing. but not when you are struggling with the basics.
just my two cents though. good luck!
# Posted on July 22nd 2006 by Brendan
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
here is an interesting website...they post a song to learn every two weeks (approx) and examples recorded by experienced players and invite members and enthusiasts to record their own versions for critique and or variety. http://www.whistlethis.com
# Posted on July 23rd 2006 by maryfrancis
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
Thanks, frozenstiff. The azores it is then ;)
Kris, spot on. I don't actually understand what is wrong with my phrasing - I hear it, but I can't describe it/correct it. I probably do need a teacher for that.
Brendan: which tune did you listen to? I'm wondering where the poor rolls were. You wouldn't happen to have time to show exactly what you mean about "strategic sculpting"?
His specific words were to "form a band" - but I think more in the sense "find some people of similar ability and bounce off each other". But he did seem to think that more character would be forced to emerge from my playing if I had an audience.
Maryfrancis!!!!!!!!!!!!! how come I haven't seen this website before? a jewel! just what I needed!
Thanks all - I'll certainly think about getting myself a teacher asap. Only problem will be a)finding one (at all) and b) finding one that I *do* click with.
Greg
# Posted on July 23rd 2006 by Tirno
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
i was listening to connaughtman's rambles. sure, i'd be happy to help you do some strategic re-deployment of cuts and rolls etc. drop me an email thru this site and i'll put together a sound file. connaughtman's rambles is a lovely tune and it is worth spend time getting it down. i've been scluting that tune for almost ten years now and there's still more gold to be found in it (sorry, i mixed metaphors, but you get the idea).
# Posted on July 23rd 2006 by Brendan
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
I listened to Palm Sunday and the Connaughtman's rambles. There isn't a lot "wrong" with your playing and especially as you've only been playing one year!
Sections of each tune come across nicely played and musical. I think what you need to work on mainly is your pulse. It's that your timing is occasionally uneven, and I think most beginners run into this. If I were teaching you I would just have you play *slower* until all the notes, even the ornaments, fit exactly to a pulse. If you played with good musicians in a session you would hear this pulse. Maybe that's what the fellow meant.
The most important thing is the timing. I would not use a metronome. Get one of those slowdown things if you don't already have, and use it on bits of your favourite recordings to play along to.
I would also say to play a lot of the rolls in your practicing in order to get them rhythmic and evenly spaced. If your fingers are not doing what you want them to, you just have to get the mechanics down. But if you are not sure what you want the ornaments to sound like rhythmically, you have to put a whistle recording into slowdown and copy the timing. Say for example Mary Bergin, or Bríd O'Donoghue - Tobar an Duchais (solo tin whistle). Slow it down enough so you can work on it along with the recording.
As you do this you will start to hear other things that you can add into your playing, finger articulations and different ways to phrase the tunes. But get the timing first and the rest will come later.
Hope some of this helps.
Lesl
# Posted on July 23rd 2006 by LH
Scluting
scluting. um, i only do that when i'm high. i meant 'sculpting'.
# Posted on July 23rd 2006 by Brendan
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
Hey, maryfrancis, that's a really neat site!
I wonder if there's a similar one for fiddle players, too?
I have a TW, mostly for fun, but I'm primarily a fiddler.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
Wow - I'm jealous the whistles have their own site. Is second the 'is there anything like this for fiddle players' question!
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Nathan G
Re: You don't need a teacher, you need an audience
sounds fine for one year in.
all good advice above, i'd just say - try to isolate the differences between the recording of you playing the tune and the way you'd hum the tune in your head.
then try to eliminate those differences.
easier typed than done
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by lunchblaze