Just a question with reference to his lordship Mike Keyes and a comment he made on a current thread. He said that banjos beg to be played with four fingers ( unlike the mandolin ? ). Well I play a short scale tenor but in the 4 finger style of a standard scale and people often wonder why I dont employ the 3 finger mandolin style. I find the notes fall more readily if I use my 4th finger for the 5th fret and above. Unfortunately it has left me too scared to purchase a standard scale banjo ( or even try them out!! ) when it seems there is plenty to be gained from the extra couple of inches in length (boom boom). What might I gain from a longer instrument? ( girls)
I've just started taking an old 19 fret banjo to sessions having reached a stage (I hope!) when I don't so much need the inaudibility of a mandolin!. Having played guitar for many years I find I naturally adopt the 4 finger style and I'm mostly just aiming a quick peck with the pinky to get to the B on the E string or moving up via first finger on 3rd fret. Is that how you're sposed to do it? I don't know - it seems to work fine and going back to the mandolin using 3 fingers mostly with the 4th reaching up or across when needed is no problem. I'm glad I've had the chance to try things out on a 19 fretter because if I upgrade that's what I'll go for again - there's more choice anyway.
Newty: Technically speaking you will only need to adopt "mando" fingering on those particular tunes where positioning shifting to hit the high b note is not possible/probable (try the B part of Peelers Jacket for example). This can be a bit of a challenge on a 19 fret instrument, but it can be done, especially if you combine stretching with slight position shifting to make the reach.
I don't disagree with Mike Keyes, especially as it pertains to new players ... I do advocate moving away from "conventional" fingering paradigms as you advance and using whatever fingering works for you in a particular tune. I was in John Carty's class at Augusta a few years ago and watched his left hand a lot ... he swithched effortlessly from mandolin fingering to guitar fingering, and back, as needed ... and made it look damnded easy!
Yes I agree with you both. Whatever works -works. And more choice of standard scale insruments. I posted because people tell me "well, you will move over to mandolin fingering eventualy". After 7 years I havent done yet!!
The purpose of choosing a fingering style is to establish a basic technique. Of course this also includes right hand technique. The purpose is to develop a good tone and to establish the various ornaments that are distinctive to ITM. I advocate the four finger style because I think it is more efficient and therefore easier to learn for a beginner.
Once good technique is learned (and the bugaboos are always that high B and the triplet) then a style can be developed. By style I mean that set of tricks and good taste that make you distinctive from other banjo players. One should be able to hear your music in recording and say "That is <insert name here>"
Elite musicians like John Carty use whatever enhances the tune in their style. They are several steps beyond the normal beginner or intermediate player and have worked out all of the technical problems and taken the music to the limits. This occurs because of a) freakazoid talent and b) a lot of hard work, especially on technique and tone development. Mos tof us don't have A), but we can all do B).
As for the 17 vs. 19 fret instrument choice, there are arguments both ways. I think there are more good banjos in the 19 fret category and that everyone should try one out and develop techniques for a 19 fret instrument. But I play a 17 fret instrument most of the time in sessions because it fits the session better and I like the banjo (a Vega Little wonder.) I play a 19 fret banjo on stage, however because it fits better with the band I play in.
Either way I use (mostly) the four finger style and return to mandolin fingering when I play my mandolin.
If you follow the pathway of developing good technique (and therefore good tone) and develop a style from that, you can't go wrong. Using mandolin fingering is certainly not "wrong", but to my mind for a beginner, it is inefficient and will delay the development of a confident technique.
If you are coming from a long experience with a mandolin (like I did), mando fingering will work, but I made the decision to go to eht four finger style as a matter of logic after seeing how much I had to struggle with the scale length differences. Short scale banjos are 19"-21" or so, standard scale instruments are in the 22"-23" range. Mandolins are about 13"-14". Your hand has a 8"-9" span with maybe another 3" of leeway with wrist motion. The math is there.
HellomMike Keyes ,I just purchased your violin tutor cd and book and am waiting for it to arrive, I would like to know who is playing the fiddle on the 80 tunes listed ?
I agree with Mike, once your technique gets to a certain level you will find that the high B stretch is not an issue, whatever the length of your fingers, because you achieve the distance with a rotation of the wrist not a stretch of the finger. Personally, I find the mando too small a scale for me ;), but these days I notice no real difference between playing a 19 fret or 17 fret, but I deliberately mix it up by playing a variety of instruments during the week.
"Conventional Fingering Paradigms" not a syndrome per se ... unless you consider my penchant for making up BS like that on the fly to be pathological ... Dr. Keyes, any diagnoses available?
I did not write that book on Irish fiddle, Peter Cooper did. I assume he is playing the fiddle since he does that for a living <G>
As for "Conventional Fingering Paradigms", there is a trap in thinking that there is only one way to do something in any endeavor and that is you become restricted if you don't think beyond the predictable standard. But the standard is there for a reason: it is the most efficient (or in some cases the most common) method out there and usually it has been conventionalized because of years of experimentation and practical limits. Since the majority of users of the technique have not been privy to the development they usually don't have the perspective of why it is now the convention. In addition a lot of people are happy doing it that way because someone told them (or they see someone do it that way) and they have no other reason to change. When there are competing standards (the way there is in banjo playing) often there is a polarization and argument based only on the principle that "if it is good enough for me, it is good for you." Most of the time it is a moot point if the practicioner advances sufficiently enough to have developed a style. Good tone is good tone no matter how you achieve it and good style speaks for itself.
I am sure that there will be continued innovations in ITM banjo playing technique as we have only just begun to explore the instrument. Most people just focus on the triplet and the style of fingering while never talking about hammer-ons, pull-offs, economy picking, third/fourth/fifth position, cross-picking, slides, and a host of other techniques that are out there and available to the banjoist (and also keep in the spirit of the music.)
Any innovations will be accompanied by criticism and grumbling, sometimes well deserved, but if you don't explore the limits, things get boring.
All of this can happen, but one still has to have rock solid basic technique that promotes efficiency, good tone, precision, and accuracy. When you have those, you can play what is in your head.
You can probably drop the "Paradigms" part just to make things a little more obvious. <G>
Hi Mike. Would you be my life trainer? What sense you talk - Damn you!! But seriously now, 2 points - firstly - I believe I get good tone from my banjo ( gold tone) but in the heat of the moment in a sesh it seems to disappear. When i play conservatively at home it sounds sweet. And I must say that triplets and fingering apart - I could talk ( or rather, listen ) allday about crosspicking. Where is the info on crosspicking techniques? It seems to be a trade secret.
RichardB - That jump from the f# to b note in Fred Finn's on the E string is one of the technical problems that has be be mastered before you can develop a style. The passage occurs in a number of tunes and can be achieved by jumping with the pinky to the b note while playing the f# in first position or by going to fourth position (first finger on the fifth fret of the E string and playing the f# note on the ninth fret of the A string with your pinky) and making the f#ede transition in the bar by playing the f# on the ninth fret the e note on the open e string and going back to first position to finish the passage.
The same can be said for the edad bdad passage that precedes the f#bbf# part that is so tough. You can start with your first finger on the fifth fret covering both the E and A strings and make that passage work with some thought. It takes practice and a little forethought, but these passages can be played with good tone and efficiency. Other tricks include altering the passage to make the transitions a little easier (and forming a new variation in the process such as f#abf#.)
Newty - you are not having success in public because you are a victim of performance stress. The difference between playing at home and in a crowd is that your whole ego is on the line in public and you (and everyone else) have a tendency to tense up. This is a normal reaction to having to do something as irretrievable as playing in public (by that I mean there is no way to hide, you have to perform to a standard and if you don't you feel embarrassed, even if no one else feels that way about you.) Performance anxiety is a variation of the "fight or flight" reaction to danger. In this case the danger is looking like a fool in front of an audience. There are a number of physiological and psychological responses that occur in this situation including a general tensioning of all muscles to get ready to fight or flee and the feeling that you are worthless. The result is a change in posture to a flexor mode (the flexor muscles are usually stronger than the extensor muscles - if all the muscles are stimulated, the flexors predominate) resulting in a slowing down of alternating movements such as picking a triplet and subtle angle changes in the body that make your tone much worse. The body is at its quickest when all opposing muscles are relaxed as you try whatever performance movement you are attempting. It is hard to do if your body is in a tense mode. Learning to relax is vital to good performance (along with visualization and confidence which help promote consistency and precision.) Musicians are also more creative when they are relaxed.
The mental aspect of performance is often overlooked by musicians and others, including athletes. The very best performers usually have a talent for relaxation and may not even know that they relax. Getting into a "zone" is a common experience for musicians and athletes. This consists of an altered state in which the music just flows and no mistakes are made. Everything seems effortless and the music is usually sublime. This can't always be achieved at will, but if you are able to learn the tools of relaxation, visualization (usually by ear, but sometimes visually), confidence, and consistency, you will find that the "zone" state occurs more often.
Most of this is well known mental training stuff that athletes have been using for years. You can learn to be more comfortable in a performance situation, but it takes practice, some forethought, and a desire to improve. You have to learn from your mistakes and not be afraid to try new things. As time goes on you will get better.
Regarding Fred Finn's - occasionally as position shift will make a world of difference. I shift up to fourth position at the beginnig of the turn (playing the e, f# and g notes on the A string), and stay there unitl the last 2 bars (where I jump back down to second position). Try working it out, it's a good introduction to playing up the neck.
I do agree that Jenny's Chicken's (and, for that matter, The Musical Priest, which the sadists at my local insist on grouping together ) are a bit of a b*^&er on a 19 fret banjar.
I found the second part of the Silver Spear was hard to play nicely (still do!) but playing a triplet on the high A helps keep the tune swinging and avoids stretching the left hand.
It took me years to realise that forcing my fingers to play every note 'as written' was stuffing up my tune playing - Mike's comment about varying your fingering to avoid ungainly transitions between notes is such an important part of learning to play the instrument tastefully. The notes in a tune as transcribed from a whistle player can sound awful when reproduced on a banjo. IMHO after learning a tune's basic outline its better to concentrate on getting the right 'feel' for the tune before attempting to fit in all the notes you'll find in the written version.
What do others think?
Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
Just a question with reference to his lordship Mike Keyes and a comment he made on a current thread. He said that banjos beg to be played with four fingers ( unlike the mandolin ? ). Well I play a short scale tenor but in the 4 finger style of a standard scale and people often wonder why I dont employ the 3 finger mandolin style. I find the notes fall more readily if I use my 4th finger for the 5th fret and above. Unfortunately it has left me too scared to purchase a standard scale banjo ( or even try them out!! ) when it seems there is plenty to be gained from the extra couple of inches in length (boom boom). What might I gain from a longer instrument? ( girls)
# Posted on July 19th 2006 by Newty
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
I've just started taking an old 19 fret banjo to sessions having reached a stage (I hope!) when I don't so much need the inaudibility of a mandolin!. Having played guitar for many years I find I naturally adopt the 4 finger style and I'm mostly just aiming a quick peck with the pinky to get to the B on the E string or moving up via first finger on 3rd fret. Is that how you're sposed to do it? I don't know - it seems to work fine and going back to the mandolin using 3 fingers mostly with the 4th reaching up or across when needed is no problem. I'm glad I've had the chance to try things out on a 19 fretter because if I upgrade that's what I'll go for again - there's more choice anyway.
# Posted on July 19th 2006 by RichardB
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
Newty: Technically speaking you will only need to adopt "mando" fingering on those particular tunes where positioning shifting to hit the high b note is not possible/probable (try the B part of Peelers Jacket for example). This can be a bit of a challenge on a 19 fret instrument, but it can be done, especially if you combine stretching with slight position shifting to make the reach.
I don't disagree with Mike Keyes, especially as it pertains to new players ... I do advocate moving away from "conventional" fingering paradigms as you advance and using whatever fingering works for you in a particular tune. I was in John Carty's class at Augusta a few years ago and watched his left hand a lot ... he swithched effortlessly from mandolin fingering to guitar fingering, and back, as needed ... and made it look damnded easy!
SteveB
# Posted on July 19th 2006 by stevebenn
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
Yes I agree with you both. Whatever works -works. And more choice of standard scale insruments. I posted because people tell me "well, you will move over to mandolin fingering eventualy". After 7 years I havent done yet!!
# Posted on July 19th 2006 by Newty
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
"Conventional fingering paradigms" - wow, is that some sort of medical condition suffered by banjo players?
# Posted on July 19th 2006 by Newty
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
The purpose of choosing a fingering style is to establish a basic technique. Of course this also includes right hand technique. The purpose is to develop a good tone and to establish the various ornaments that are distinctive to ITM. I advocate the four finger style because I think it is more efficient and therefore easier to learn for a beginner.
Once good technique is learned (and the bugaboos are always that high B and the triplet) then a style can be developed. By style I mean that set of tricks and good taste that make you distinctive from other banjo players. One should be able to hear your music in recording and say "That is <insert name here>"
Elite musicians like John Carty use whatever enhances the tune in their style. They are several steps beyond the normal beginner or intermediate player and have worked out all of the technical problems and taken the music to the limits. This occurs because of a) freakazoid talent and b) a lot of hard work, especially on technique and tone development. Mos tof us don't have A), but we can all do B).
As for the 17 vs. 19 fret instrument choice, there are arguments both ways. I think there are more good banjos in the 19 fret category and that everyone should try one out and develop techniques for a 19 fret instrument. But I play a 17 fret instrument most of the time in sessions because it fits the session better and I like the banjo (a Vega Little wonder.) I play a 19 fret banjo on stage, however because it fits better with the band I play in.
Either way I use (mostly) the four finger style and return to mandolin fingering when I play my mandolin.
If you follow the pathway of developing good technique (and therefore good tone) and develop a style from that, you can't go wrong. Using mandolin fingering is certainly not "wrong", but to my mind for a beginner, it is inefficient and will delay the development of a confident technique.
If you are coming from a long experience with a mandolin (like I did), mando fingering will work, but I made the decision to go to eht four finger style as a matter of logic after seeing how much I had to struggle with the scale length differences. Short scale banjos are 19"-21" or so, standard scale instruments are in the 22"-23" range. Mandolins are about 13"-14". Your hand has a 8"-9" span with maybe another 3" of leeway with wrist motion. The math is there.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on July 19th 2006 by mikeyes
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
HellomMike Keyes ,I just purchased your violin tutor cd and book and am waiting for it to arrive, I would like to know who is playing the fiddle on the 80 tunes listed ?
# Posted on July 20th 2006 by Red Robin
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
I agree with Mike, once your technique gets to a certain level you will find that the high B stretch is not an issue, whatever the length of your fingers, because you achieve the distance with a rotation of the wrist not a stretch of the finger. Personally, I find the mando too small a scale for me ;), but these days I notice no real difference between playing a 19 fret or 17 fret, but I deliberately mix it up by playing a variety of instruments during the week.
# Posted on July 20th 2006 by nick b
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
That should read " Mel Bays Complete Irish Fiddle Player " with 80 tunes and accompanying book
# Posted on July 20th 2006 by Red Robin
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
"Conventional Fingering Paradigms" not a syndrome per se ... unless you consider my penchant for making up BS like that on the fly to be pathological ... Dr. Keyes, any diagnoses available?
Steve
# Posted on July 20th 2006 by stevebenn
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
Red Robin,
I did not write that book on Irish fiddle, Peter Cooper did. I assume he is playing the fiddle since he does that for a living <G>
As for "Conventional Fingering Paradigms", there is a trap in thinking that there is only one way to do something in any endeavor and that is you become restricted if you don't think beyond the predictable standard. But the standard is there for a reason: it is the most efficient (or in some cases the most common) method out there and usually it has been conventionalized because of years of experimentation and practical limits. Since the majority of users of the technique have not been privy to the development they usually don't have the perspective of why it is now the convention. In addition a lot of people are happy doing it that way because someone told them (or they see someone do it that way) and they have no other reason to change. When there are competing standards (the way there is in banjo playing) often there is a polarization and argument based only on the principle that "if it is good enough for me, it is good for you." Most of the time it is a moot point if the practicioner advances sufficiently enough to have developed a style. Good tone is good tone no matter how you achieve it and good style speaks for itself.
I am sure that there will be continued innovations in ITM banjo playing technique as we have only just begun to explore the instrument. Most people just focus on the triplet and the style of fingering while never talking about hammer-ons, pull-offs, economy picking, third/fourth/fifth position, cross-picking, slides, and a host of other techniques that are out there and available to the banjoist (and also keep in the spirit of the music.)
Any innovations will be accompanied by criticism and grumbling, sometimes well deserved, but if you don't explore the limits, things get boring.
All of this can happen, but one still has to have rock solid basic technique that promotes efficiency, good tone, precision, and accuracy. When you have those, you can play what is in your head.
You can probably drop the "Paradigms" part just to make things a little more obvious. <G>
MIke Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on July 20th 2006 by mikeyes
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
Hi Mike. Would you be my life trainer? What sense you talk - Damn you!! But seriously now, 2 points - firstly - I believe I get good tone from my banjo ( gold tone) but in the heat of the moment in a sesh it seems to disappear. When i play conservatively at home it sounds sweet. And I must say that triplets and fingering apart - I could talk ( or rather, listen ) allday about crosspicking. Where is the info on crosspicking techniques? It seems to be a trade secret.
# Posted on July 20th 2006 by Newty
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
And as for the jump from the 2nd fret to the 7th fret - isnt Jennys Chickens a b*^&er to perform cleanly?
# Posted on July 20th 2006 by Newty
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
Fred Finn's is a tune I like on the mando but it's a killer on the banjo with its fbbf bits.
# Posted on July 21st 2006 by RichardB
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
Newty - There is an excellent thread on crosspicking at mandolincafe right now (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=a872a6300155471e74a5a733dc48167a;act=ST;f=24;t=36320;st=0)
RichardB - That jump from the f# to b note in Fred Finn's on the E string is one of the technical problems that has be be mastered before you can develop a style. The passage occurs in a number of tunes and can be achieved by jumping with the pinky to the b note while playing the f# in first position or by going to fourth position (first finger on the fifth fret of the E string and playing the f# note on the ninth fret of the A string with your pinky) and making the f#ede transition in the bar by playing the f# on the ninth fret the e note on the open e string and going back to first position to finish the passage.
The same can be said for the edad bdad passage that precedes the f#bbf# part that is so tough. You can start with your first finger on the fifth fret covering both the E and A strings and make that passage work with some thought. It takes practice and a little forethought, but these passages can be played with good tone and efficiency. Other tricks include altering the passage to make the transitions a little easier (and forming a new variation in the process such as f#abf#.)
Newty - you are not having success in public because you are a victim of performance stress. The difference between playing at home and in a crowd is that your whole ego is on the line in public and you (and everyone else) have a tendency to tense up. This is a normal reaction to having to do something as irretrievable as playing in public (by that I mean there is no way to hide, you have to perform to a standard and if you don't you feel embarrassed, even if no one else feels that way about you.) Performance anxiety is a variation of the "fight or flight" reaction to danger. In this case the danger is looking like a fool in front of an audience. There are a number of physiological and psychological responses that occur in this situation including a general tensioning of all muscles to get ready to fight or flee and the feeling that you are worthless. The result is a change in posture to a flexor mode (the flexor muscles are usually stronger than the extensor muscles - if all the muscles are stimulated, the flexors predominate) resulting in a slowing down of alternating movements such as picking a triplet and subtle angle changes in the body that make your tone much worse. The body is at its quickest when all opposing muscles are relaxed as you try whatever performance movement you are attempting. It is hard to do if your body is in a tense mode. Learning to relax is vital to good performance (along with visualization and confidence which help promote consistency and precision.) Musicians are also more creative when they are relaxed.
The mental aspect of performance is often overlooked by musicians and others, including athletes. The very best performers usually have a talent for relaxation and may not even know that they relax. Getting into a "zone" is a common experience for musicians and athletes. This consists of an altered state in which the music just flows and no mistakes are made. Everything seems effortless and the music is usually sublime. This can't always be achieved at will, but if you are able to learn the tools of relaxation, visualization (usually by ear, but sometimes visually), confidence, and consistency, you will find that the "zone" state occurs more often.
Most of this is well known mental training stuff that athletes have been using for years. You can learn to be more comfortable in a performance situation, but it takes practice, some forethought, and a desire to improve. You have to learn from your mistakes and not be afraid to try new things. As time goes on you will get better.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
http://www.shotgunsportsmagazine.com/mental_training/mental_training.html
# Posted on July 21st 2006 by mikeyes
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
Regarding Fred Finn's - occasionally as position shift will make a world of difference. I shift up to fourth position at the beginnig of the turn (playing the e, f# and g notes on the A string), and stay there unitl the last 2 bars (where I jump back down to second position). Try working it out, it's a good introduction to playing up the neck.
I do agree that Jenny's Chicken's (and, for that matter, The Musical Priest, which the sadists at my local insist on grouping together ) are a bit of a b*^&er on a 19 fret banjar.
Tim
# Posted on July 22nd 2006 by tmcelrea
Re: Banjo - Short scale/standard scale
I found the second part of the Silver Spear was hard to play nicely (still do!) but playing a triplet on the high A helps keep the tune swinging and avoids stretching the left hand.
It took me years to realise that forcing my fingers to play every note 'as written' was stuffing up my tune playing - Mike's comment about varying your fingering to avoid ungainly transitions between notes is such an important part of learning to play the instrument tastefully. The notes in a tune as transcribed from a whistle player can sound awful when reproduced on a banjo. IMHO after learning a tune's basic outline its better to concentrate on getting the right 'feel' for the tune before attempting to fit in all the notes you'll find in the written version.
What do others think?
Ian
# Posted on July 23rd 2006 by dogbox