A couple of days ago I started a thread about 3/4 fiddles. Thanks to all who gave advise . . I hadn't really took a close look at this fiddle my mate gave me until today.
I know a lot of you are going to laugh at what I'm about to say . . but hold your water till Iv'e finished.
I looked inside the fiddle and under one of the F holes are the words Antonius Stradivarious . . . don't start smirking just yet ! Its not written on a label, its actually hand wriiten on to the wood.Thats all it says . . there's no date . . it doesn't say copy or the word Cremonius or anything else.
Mmm . . I thought it "can't be can it?", the genuine article.
If I was a rich man, yab a dab a dab a . . what ever it is.
By the way I do live on cloud cuckoo land most of the time . . the wife can confirm this . .
Hehe, unfortunately it's very unlikely. There are thousands of Strad copies around - this is most likely one of them.
Strad copies are not strictly copies per se - the name is usually telling you that the fiddle shape and dimensions are modelled after the Stradivarius model. There are other shapes and models of fiddle, such as Guarneri. There are French models too.
The name written inside most likely means the fiddle was made to the Stradivarius model specifications.
I suspect you'd have a fair idea if it was the real thing as soon as you play it. If you think it sounds great, and the sound carries well, it might be worth having it valued.
Yes and I've got an old fiddle bow with "Tourte" stamped on it, so I showed it to a bow-maker thinking it might be worth hundreds of thousands, but he snorted contemptuously (some of you may know him) and told me to stick it in a flower-pot - wouldn't even consider rehairing it!
Old Tony always used labels as far as I know. 98% of Strad labelled fiddles can be eliminated with 2 seconds look at a decent picture. If it is something decent, the details should all say "quality" very loud and clear.
Assuming the neck etc look "normal" can you see a join (however faint) where the neck blends into the peg box. A modern shape fiddle dating from before 1800 will almost certainly have been grafted here to add a modern style neck.
I had a violin with the same label when I was a kid (it had belonged to my mother's uncle). Believe me, it was anything but a Stradivarius. Apparently, it was quite common at one time, around a century ago, to put such labels in mass-produced violins. As JD says, it was just to show that they were copies of Strads. According to a good friend of mine who is a violin maker, ALL of the real Strads are accounted for, so don't start making any big plans Stewpot!
I thought the same thing when I bought my Maggini model. Saw a label inside that looked hundreds of years old. My local shop said a ton of violins were made in Germany from 1880 to 1910 or so that used this kind of labeling. It's not that they were trying to say it was original, just give some credit to the original designer.
I bought a book that has many of the different labels you'll find with the masterpieces and many of the fake labels that followed.
Glad you didn't do anything crazy like quit your day job!
i have one he made on holiday in czechoslovakia in 1713, apparently he ran short of cash and gave this one to the innkeeper to pay his drinks bill. It must be true the innkeeper was the great, great, great, great grandfather of the guy I met in the pubs mother. He sold me the fiddle cheap because he didn't have his bus fare home. I'm going to keep it forever - it's mine , mine and you'll never get your hands on it.
Well, ta Strad agamsa freisin. I have one too. The old man thought it was, but I don't have a day job to give up now. I believe chances of finding The Real McCoy (great fiddle maker, McCoy) are fairly slim, but I never yet heard an expert say that every single Strad made by the man himself is accounted for, because I don't think the number he made is known (and what was to stop him making one in his room at night that no one knew about, a sly old bu**er, that AS).
Does anyone remember this story in the newspapers some years ago: a fellow had what he thought was a Strad copy, left it on top? of the car while he opened the door, forgot to put it in the car (drunk??), drove over fiddle, smashed it, of course. It was later examined, what was left of it, found to be, not the real McCoy, but a genuine AS. No insurance, sad story. Can anyone confirm this story?
Mairtin
Most of you haven't listened to what I've said about labels . . the one I have DOESN'T HAVE A LABEL, sorry for shouting . . its just signed with the fellas name . . Antonius Stradivarius.
Nah... "Antonius Stradivarius" (sp?) is simply the latin way of saying "this here fiddle came from ME".
Still, signing a fiddle is nearly unheard of in polite circles. Stradivari labelled his, like most self-respecting makers do.
While "all" the strads are not known to be accounted for, it's safe to say that "virtually all of the playable" strads are accounted for. People have been hunting his violins to exclusion for around 300 years, remember. Suffice to say you'd have an easier time finding a winning lottery ticket than a genuine strad that was sitting in someone's attic.
But don't take my word for it. Googling "Stradivarius" gives you hundreds of fake strads for sale on the Ebays of the world.
There was a great story in the New Yorker some years ago about someone who bought a piano and found a violin inside it--a geuine Strad. One was just auctioned a few weeks ago and it fetched over 2.5 million U.S.
I heard of someone who opened a piano accordion and some real music came out......nah, it was just a fairytale.
I don't watch trite tv, but there was this story on Northern Exposure a few years back ( joke ), no, really, about a musician asked to evaluate a fine fiddle, then the guy announced he would buy it and put it in a bank vault, at which point the musician stole it rather than see an instrument be treated like that. I was on his side, even if you discount whether or not fiddles deteriorate if not played.
But, back to the original question....I could tell you of every instrument I've owned or made, though it's not written down anywhere, and I suspect Tony was much the same, so there could still be one or two out there, just don't hold your breath, or spend the cash in advance.
There are a number of absolutely magnificent-sounding intruments out there which sound identical to, and play like a genuine Stradivari, Guaneri, Amati, Stainer etc. But they're not the real thing.
A few weeks ago I was talking to a professional cellist who owns one of these instruments (he plays background cello music for tv dramas, amongst other things), and he told me the history of his instrument.
His cello was made by a specialist luthier in Italy a few years ago. The luthier had the loan of a genuine Stradivari cello for a couple of months during which he made detailed measurements and photographs of every aspect of the instrument. He then made a copy cello according to these very precise measurements, using the quality of malerials that you would expect, and using the tools and methods that Stradivari would have used. Including sharkskin to polish down the wood (fine details like that really do matter at this level of craftsmanship, apparently). The final result was a brand-new instrument that plays and sounds like the original, but at a reasonably affordable fraction of the impossible cost of buying the real article. The insurance premiums are also reasonable and the insurance policy doesn't have all the restrictions that would be applied to a genuine Stradivari.
I'm told that a fiddle made like this would probably be in the region of GBP 15-20K (cellos are a bit more expensive). If you needed the instrument to look as old as it sounds then further specialist attention would cost another few K.
So next time you hear the sound of a "Strad" etc being played live at a concert you may very well wonder whether you are hearing an original ...
A friend once made himself a mandolin, and stuck a label, deep inside, where you had to angle the instrument up to the light and peer in hard. When people finally got to see the label, they would read out, slowly and with great difficulty:
'Wouldn’t the name inside the fiddle be Stradivari...?'
Were latinised forms of names not used for the purposes of prestige, Latin being an international language? Antonius Stradivarius, Iosephus Amatus, Copernicus, Nostradamus etc.
I've seen fiddles with labels such as 'Iosephus Amatus 1571, Made in Czechoslovakia'. You could hardly call it a fake - you'd have to be a fool to believe it was the genuine article. I've always assumed it meant that it was made according to Amati's design, dated 1571, or something like that. Or maybe there's just a 'tradition' of putting fake labels in violins, no matter how unconvincing.
It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
A couple of days ago I started a thread about 3/4 fiddles. Thanks to all who gave advise . . I hadn't really took a close look at this fiddle my mate gave me until today.
I know a lot of you are going to laugh at what I'm about to say . . but hold your water till Iv'e finished.
I looked inside the fiddle and under one of the F holes are the words Antonius Stradivarious . . . don't start smirking just yet ! Its not written on a label, its actually hand wriiten on to the wood.Thats all it says . . there's no date . . it doesn't say copy or the word Cremonius or anything else.
Mmm . . I thought it "can't be can it?", the genuine article.
If I was a rich man, yab a dab a dab a . . what ever it is.
By the way I do live on cloud cuckoo land most of the time . . the wife can confirm this . .
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by Justintime
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
Since when did stradivarious make fiddles????
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by ainekenaz
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
Hehe, unfortunately it's very unlikely. There are thousands of Strad copies around - this is most likely one of them.
Strad copies are not strictly copies per se - the name is usually telling you that the fiddle shape and dimensions are modelled after the Stradivarius model. There are other shapes and models of fiddle, such as Guarneri. There are French models too.
The name written inside most likely means the fiddle was made to the Stradivarius model specifications.
I suspect you'd have a fair idea if it was the real thing as soon as you play it. If you think it sounds great, and the sound carries well, it might be worth having it valued.
Anyway, best of luck with it!
JD
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by tradshark
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
Yes and I've got an old fiddle bow with "Tourte" stamped on it, so I showed it to a bow-maker thinking it might be worth hundreds of thousands, but he snorted contemptuously (some of you may know him) and told me to stick it in a flower-pot - wouldn't even consider rehairing it!
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by RichardB
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
Its got no strings yet JD so no idea what its going to sound like . . dream on eh . .
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by Justintime
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
Old Tony always used labels as far as I know. 98% of Strad labelled fiddles can be eliminated with 2 seconds look at a decent picture. If it is something decent, the details should all say "quality" very loud and clear.
Assuming the neck etc look "normal" can you see a join (however faint) where the neck blends into the peg box. A modern shape fiddle dating from before 1800 will almost certainly have been grafted here to add a modern style neck.
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
I had a violin with the same label when I was a kid (it had belonged to my mother's uncle). Believe me, it was anything but a Stradivarius. Apparently, it was quite common at one time, around a century ago, to put such labels in mass-produced violins. As JD says, it was just to show that they were copies of Strads. According to a good friend of mine who is a violin maker, ALL of the real Strads are accounted for, so don't start making any big plans Stewpot!
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by print o' the wave
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
I have a bridge in Brooklyn that you can purchase........
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
I thought the same thing when I bought my Maggini model. Saw a label inside that looked hundreds of years old. My local shop said a ton of violins were made in Germany from 1880 to 1910 or so that used this kind of labeling. It's not that they were trying to say it was original, just give some credit to the original designer.
I bought a book that has many of the different labels you'll find with the masterpieces and many of the fake labels that followed.
Glad you didn't do anything crazy like quit your day job!
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by nofrets
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
i have one he made on holiday in czechoslovakia in 1713, apparently he ran short of cash and gave this one to the innkeeper to pay his drinks bill. It must be true the innkeeper was the great, great, great, great grandfather of the guy I met in the pubs mother. He sold me the fiddle cheap because he didn't have his bus fare home. I'm going to keep it forever - it's mine , mine and you'll never get your hands on it.
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by Davetnova
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
Well, ta Strad agamsa freisin. I have one too. The old man thought it was, but I don't have a day job to give up now. I believe chances of finding The Real McCoy (great fiddle maker, McCoy) are fairly slim, but I never yet heard an expert say that every single Strad made by the man himself is accounted for, because I don't think the number he made is known (and what was to stop him making one in his room at night that no one knew about, a sly old bu**er, that AS).
Does anyone remember this story in the newspapers some years ago: a fellow had what he thought was a Strad copy, left it on top? of the car while he opened the door, forgot to put it in the car (drunk??), drove over fiddle, smashed it, of course. It was later examined, what was left of it, found to be, not the real McCoy, but a genuine AS. No insurance, sad story. Can anyone confirm this story?
Mairtin
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by frozenstiff
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
Most of you haven't listened to what I've said about labels . . the one I have DOESN'T HAVE A LABEL, sorry for shouting . . its just signed with the fellas name . . Antonius Stradivarius.
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by Justintime
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
Thats why I thought it might have been special . .
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by Justintime
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
Wouldn’t the name inside the fiddle be Stradivari, not Stradivarius (or Stradivarious)? Isn’t Stradivarius a moniker applied later to his instruments.
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
Nah... "Antonius Stradivarius" (sp?) is simply the latin way of saying "this here fiddle came from ME".
Still, signing a fiddle is nearly unheard of in polite circles. Stradivari labelled his, like most self-respecting makers do.
While "all" the strads are not known to be accounted for, it's safe to say that "virtually all of the playable" strads are accounted for. People have been hunting his violins to exclusion for around 300 years, remember. Suffice to say you'd have an easier time finding a winning lottery ticket than a genuine strad that was sitting in someone's attic.
But don't take my word for it. Googling "Stradivarius" gives you hundreds of fake strads for sale on the Ebays of the world.
Then there's this:
http://www.afvbm.com/strad.htm
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by Georgi
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
Perfect link to strads Georgi . . . thanks for it
# Posted on June 27th 2006 by Justintime
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
There was a great story in the New Yorker some years ago about someone who bought a piano and found a violin inside it--a geuine Strad. One was just auctioned a few weeks ago and it fetched over 2.5 million U.S.
# Posted on June 28th 2006 by leoj
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
I heard of someone who opened a piano accordion and some real music came out......nah, it was just a fairytale.
I don't watch trite tv, but there was this story on Northern Exposure a few years back ( joke ), no, really, about a musician asked to evaluate a fine fiddle, then the guy announced he would buy it and put it in a bank vault, at which point the musician stole it rather than see an instrument be treated like that. I was on his side, even if you discount whether or not fiddles deteriorate if not played.
But, back to the original question....I could tell you of every instrument I've owned or made, though it's not written down anywhere, and I suspect Tony was much the same, so there could still be one or two out there, just don't hold your breath, or spend the cash in advance.
# Posted on June 28th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
There are a number of absolutely magnificent-sounding intruments out there which sound identical to, and play like a genuine Stradivari, Guaneri, Amati, Stainer etc. But they're not the real thing.
A few weeks ago I was talking to a professional cellist who owns one of these instruments (he plays background cello music for tv dramas, amongst other things), and he told me the history of his instrument.
His cello was made by a specialist luthier in Italy a few years ago. The luthier had the loan of a genuine Stradivari cello for a couple of months during which he made detailed measurements and photographs of every aspect of the instrument. He then made a copy cello according to these very precise measurements, using the quality of malerials that you would expect, and using the tools and methods that Stradivari would have used. Including sharkskin to polish down the wood (fine details like that really do matter at this level of craftsmanship, apparently). The final result was a brand-new instrument that plays and sounds like the original, but at a reasonably affordable fraction of the impossible cost of buying the real article. The insurance premiums are also reasonable and the insurance policy doesn't have all the restrictions that would be applied to a genuine Stradivari.
I'm told that a fiddle made like this would probably be in the region of GBP 15-20K (cellos are a bit more expensive). If you needed the instrument to look as old as it sounds then further specialist attention would cost another few K.
So next time you hear the sound of a "Strad" etc being played live at a concert you may very well wonder whether you are hearing an original ...
# Posted on June 28th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
A friend once made himself a mandolin, and stuck a label, deep inside, where you had to angle the instrument up to the light and peer in hard. When people finally got to see the label, they would read out, slowly and with great difficulty:
"WHAT'S IT TO YOU, BIG NOSE?"
# Posted on June 28th 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: It can't be ! can it ? (Fiddle Question)
'Wouldn’t the name inside the fiddle be Stradivari...?'
Were latinised forms of names not used for the purposes of prestige, Latin being an international language? Antonius Stradivarius, Iosephus Amatus, Copernicus, Nostradamus etc.
I've seen fiddles with labels such as 'Iosephus Amatus 1571, Made in Czechoslovakia'. You could hardly call it a fake - you'd have to be a fool to believe it was the genuine article. I've always assumed it meant that it was made according to Amati's design, dated 1571, or something like that. Or maybe there's just a 'tradition' of putting fake labels in violins, no matter how unconvincing.
# Posted on June 28th 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig