This has probably been posted a bazillion times in some form or another, but here goes anyway:
Are you bothered in sessions if players don't play traditionally? If you don't play traditionally, how far can you push the boat out?
I can play both traditionally and in a style all of my own, and like to do both. If I'm new at a session, I tend to tone it down a bit, and play traditionally, but if I'm known at a session, I feel I have pretty much free rein to mess about (musically).
As an example of what I do, check out www.myspace.com/davidgarnerfiddle
the tracks are about 3 years old now, and my non-trad style has gone even more jazzy since then.
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Hmmm...I wouldn't call what you've posted at myspace.com "jazzy." In fact, it strikes me as mostly traditional sounding, with a dash more dynamics and freedom from strict meter than usual. But it's not like you're sprinkling everything with flatted sevenths and going on extended melodic improvisations. I like your sound and style, and I can imagine your more traditional approach would also be
Our local session does this sort of thing now and then. A couple of our fiddlers are good at swing-style improv, and some of us like to slow down and re-interpret a tune just for grins. But, to my tastes, too much of it at a session starts to sound pretentious or self-involved, losing focus on the spare beauty of the tunes themselves. But that's just me.
Nice job on the recordings, David. I enjoyed your playing very much.
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Cheers whoosis.
I totally agree on the "too much of it = pretentious" comment. I prefer to play straight most of the time, and then let rip on the odd set here and there. Besides it sounds unforced and fresh when you dont do it all the time. I agree my playing isn't jazzy as in jazz, I meant that I mess about more nowadays.
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Well, your "messing about" sounds lovely.
Vassar Clements once said that he enjoyed playing the same tunes year after year, but that he always hoped he'd be playing them differently 5 or 10 years down the road. I think that applies well to Irish trad--a big part of the fun is making the tunes fresh, alive, even if you've been playing them for 30 years.
I gave a friend a birthday card once that showed two old gents in a pub enjoying their pints of the black stuff, and on the inside, the card read: "You can't relive old times, but you can recreate them." Which is what a session is, to me. And re-creating the tunes is all the more fun when you leave room for a little wandering and creative interpretation now and then.
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
A good example of how one players tune changes. Listen to Sean Smyth's solo album and on it you will hear the tune "A Punch in the Dark," now listen to Lunasa's Kinnitty sessions album and he plays the same tune. See what I mean?
On topic, it depends on the session. I go to one session where I wouldn't hesitate to start a set of "modern" tunes nad have the other guys noodle along. At a different one I wouldn't do that.
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Am I bothered in sessions if players don't play traditionally?
The whole point about this question is the definition of tradition. If you define tradition as the preservation of what has gone before then please sit in your dusty attic and I will happily ignore you.
But then again, If you define folk music as "music of the people" and take it to its logical extention of "anything goes", then again, I will happily ignore you.
The truth, of course, is in the balance. I listened to your (old) posting and know that you understand the traditional argument. And that you strive to make it your own. And in my book, I could say no better.
AND, In my book. The most important thing is, if you don't feck about with it, what's the point?
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Well done David, great stuff! What you do is very creative, and your enjoyment of it definitely comes across in the recording.
As for whether it would bother people in a session if you play in that style - well, it depends on the session I suppose. All sessions are different, so it's just a case of finding one that's suitable, and if there isn't one, just get together with a bunch of mates and make your own!
If you're joining other people's sessions, it also boils down to what your priorities are and what you think the function of a session is. I'd say that for most people, sessions are about getting together for a drink, a chat, and a play together. If you play in your "jazzy" style then obviously most people aren't going to be able to follow you, and it becomes a full-on performance with you as the player and the other musicians as your audience. If both sides are happy with that social set-up, then that's great, but if you sense that all they want to do is play through a few sets of tunes over a pint, then you'd want to act accordingly. It's up to you, really.
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
I always find that too many people on this discussion board try to theorize about the "traditional" styles of Irish music. Why not listen to this sort of music over and over again in the recordings or sessions, and simply play it over and over again? And why not wait for your own "traditional" style of playing to take shape on its own?
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
I'm afraid I have to disagree there, Slainte. Talking about technique can be a great help. I've learnt heaps of stuff from people who have been willing to sit down with me and give me pointers on technique.
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Good recording. But wait- you asked about a SESSION. In a session, you are presumably playing with people who won't be taking your cues on when to stretch it, where the harmonies are going etc. And they are going to want to do THEIR thing, what do you do if your arrangement clashes? back off? Are you going to get upset by the guitarist's chords, the p***o acc*****t's left hand, etc.?
It's the kind of thing you sometimes get when a session has been running for a long time, and the players have developed their own local arrangements of tunes or sets.
And you won't have the reverb either, it's more likely to be in an acoustically flat room full of smoke and beer and sweaty punters arguing about Wayne Rooney's toe.
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Try again: I mean, thinking about it *too much* doesn't help much while you're playing tunes. (Obviously you can't discuss when you play, especially on the flute or whistle.) Talking about technique does help sometimes. But once it has become a part of you body, you can't theorize about it so easily, I believe.
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
OK luap ekrub - "arguing about Wayne Rooney's toe"
How long will it be before someone writes the tune - 'Wayne Rooney's toe'?
After all we already have these on file here:
The Heel And Toe, The Pope's Toe, Peter Big Toe, Jimmy Donkey's Big Toe, Heel Toe, Joe The Yankee's Big Toe & of course, not forgetting - The Bag Of Pota-toes
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Traditional to start, especially if you havent played together before. The reason being is that everyone then has a starting point of reference, particularily for the settings of the tunes, of which there are numerous, and also for tempo, regional style etc.
Whats wrong with just playing tunes anyway?
I get alot of enjoyment from the old tunes yet, and there are enough variations to keep me going after nearly 20yrs. Am I the only one?
By the way, VERY nice playing, your very talented!
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
I wouldn't walk into a strange session and start pushing the envelope. But among friends, as long as all are consenting adults, there is no problem with taking liberties with the tradition, and stretching things a little bit. At my favorite session, we sometimes bring in Scot and other tunes, often without anyone but us noticing, and once or twice a night, we often play something American. But the man who brings us our free drinks runs an Irish pub, which creates certain expectations, so we try to keep that in mind, and not stray too far afield.
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Get on with your exams matey - not all over yet are they ?
Do you really believe we enjoy all that flashy bow work, fancy syncopation and weird key changes you insist on forcing upon us Bristol lot.
Thank goodness we've had a break from that sort of nonsense while you are being examined (closely).
We've finally been able to concentrate on playing The Kesh exactly as notated in the "100 Hakneyed Session Faves" book
(However - isn't it actually very traditional to 'mess with tunes' - its what I seem to hear from the playing of well respected players right since the earliest recordings until now ? ).
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
I have to agree with blas -- I enjoy just playing the old tunes. Of course, I try to vary them a bit each time I play, but I do so within the parameters of the tradition. And there are countless possibilites within those parameters, so I know I'll never get bored.
My understanding of a tradition (musical or otherwise) is that it is something that is passed down, more-or-less intact, from one generation to another. So, if you love traditional Irish music, why would you go to a Irish session and then play the music in a way that takes away the Irishness?
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Evening all.
Most of the sessions I play in are mainly ITM, not strictly. They're more folky than trad I'd say (depending on who turns up). I gotta say when I'm in Ireland, I tone it down a bit just to be on the safe side (people have got mightly p*ssed off in the past with me playing non-trad, my dad included!). Mind you, when I'm in a more folky session with songs and music from other parts of the world, I do happen to mess about a wee bit.
By the way has anyone noticed that the top Irish bands don't play trad: take Lunasa and Flook for example. Even Teada and Danu aren't particularly trad. And yet they're great exponents of the music.
Graham, I expect a nice pint of champagne lined up tomorrow night at the Barley Mow Lunatic Asylum - areet?!
Thinking positively: Gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail.
Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
This has probably been posted a bazillion times in some form or another, but here goes anyway:
Are you bothered in sessions if players don't play traditionally? If you don't play traditionally, how far can you push the boat out?
I can play both traditionally and in a style all of my own, and like to do both. If I'm new at a session, I tend to tone it down a bit, and play traditionally, but if I'm known at a session, I feel I have pretty much free rein to mess about (musically).
As an example of what I do, check out www.myspace.com/davidgarnerfiddle
the tracks are about 3 years old now, and my non-trad style has gone even more jazzy since then.
# Posted on June 7th 2006 by Choonz
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Hmmm...I wouldn't call what you've posted at myspace.com "jazzy." In fact, it strikes me as mostly traditional sounding, with a dash more dynamics and freedom from strict meter than usual. But it's not like you're sprinkling everything with flatted sevenths and going on extended melodic improvisations. I like your sound and style, and I can imagine your more traditional approach would also be
Our local session does this sort of thing now and then. A couple of our fiddlers are good at swing-style improv, and some of us like to slow down and re-interpret a tune just for grins. But, to my tastes, too much of it at a session starts to sound pretentious or self-involved, losing focus on the spare beauty of the tunes themselves. But that's just me.
Nice job on the recordings, David. I enjoyed your playing very much.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Cheers whoosis.
I totally agree on the "too much of it = pretentious" comment. I prefer to play straight most of the time, and then let rip on the odd set here and there. Besides it sounds unforced and fresh when you dont do it all the time. I agree my playing isn't jazzy as in jazz, I meant that I mess about more nowadays.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Choonz
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Well, your "messing about" sounds lovely.
Vassar Clements once said that he enjoyed playing the same tunes year after year, but that he always hoped he'd be playing them differently 5 or 10 years down the road. I think that applies well to Irish trad--a big part of the fun is making the tunes fresh, alive, even if you've been playing them for 30 years.
I gave a friend a birthday card once that showed two old gents in a pub enjoying their pints of the black stuff, and on the inside, the card read: "You can't relive old times, but you can recreate them." Which is what a session is, to me. And re-creating the tunes is all the more fun when you leave room for a little wandering and creative interpretation now and then.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
A good example of how one players tune changes. Listen to Sean Smyth's solo album and on it you will hear the tune "A Punch in the Dark," now listen to Lunasa's Kinnitty sessions album and he plays the same tune. See what I mean?
On topic, it depends on the session. I go to one session where I wouldn't hesitate to start a set of "modern" tunes nad have the other guys noodle along. At a different one I wouldn't do that.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Am I bothered in sessions if players don't play traditionally?
The whole point about this question is the definition of tradition. If you define tradition as the preservation of what has gone before then please sit in your dusty attic and I will happily ignore you.
But then again, If you define folk music as "music of the people" and take it to its logical extention of "anything goes", then again, I will happily ignore you.
The truth, of course, is in the balance. I listened to your (old) posting and know that you understand the traditional argument. And that you strive to make it your own. And in my book, I could say no better.
AND, In my book. The most important thing is, if you don't feck about with it, what's the point?
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
that purphy's with all the syncopation would be mad cool with a rockin' band to back it up.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by jaime!
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Purphy's is a mint tune. It was written by Brian Finnegan (Flook) for his cat and dog (Patrick and Murphy, respectively).
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Choonz
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Well done David, great stuff! What you do is very creative, and your enjoyment of it definitely comes across in the recording.
As for whether it would bother people in a session if you play in that style - well, it depends on the session I suppose. All sessions are different, so it's just a case of finding one that's suitable, and if there isn't one, just get together with a bunch of mates and make your own!
If you're joining other people's sessions, it also boils down to what your priorities are and what you think the function of a session is. I'd say that for most people, sessions are about getting together for a drink, a chat, and a play together. If you play in your "jazzy" style then obviously most people aren't going to be able to follow you, and it becomes a full-on performance with you as the player and the other musicians as your audience. If both sides are happy with that social set-up, then that's great, but if you sense that all they want to do is play through a few sets of tunes over a pint, then you'd want to act accordingly. It's up to you, really.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
I always find that too many people on this discussion board try to theorize about the "traditional" styles of Irish music. Why not listen to this sort of music over and over again in the recordings or sessions, and simply play it over and over again? And why not wait for your own "traditional" style of playing to take shape on its own?
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by slainte
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
In other words, talking about techniques or "feel" doesn't help much. Just play music without thinking about them.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by slainte
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
I'm afraid I have to disagree there, Slainte. Talking about technique can be a great help. I've learnt heaps of stuff from people who have been willing to sit down with me and give me pointers on technique.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
So, it just "can be" a great help.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by slainte
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Well, I mean talking about it *too much* doesn't help much, especially while you're playing tunes.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by slainte
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Good recording. But wait- you asked about a SESSION. In a session, you are presumably playing with people who won't be taking your cues on when to stretch it, where the harmonies are going etc. And they are going to want to do THEIR thing, what do you do if your arrangement clashes? back off? Are you going to get upset by the guitarist's chords, the p***o acc*****t's left hand, etc.?
It's the kind of thing you sometimes get when a session has been running for a long time, and the players have developed their own local arrangements of tunes or sets.
And you won't have the reverb either, it's more likely to be in an acoustically flat room full of smoke and beer and sweaty punters arguing about Wayne Rooney's toe.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Try again: I mean, thinking about it *too much* doesn't help much while you're playing tunes. (Obviously you can't discuss when you play, especially on the flute or whistle.) Talking about technique does help sometimes. But once it has become a part of you body, you can't theorize about it so easily, I believe.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by slainte
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
OK luap ekrub - "arguing about Wayne Rooney's toe"
How long will it be before someone writes the tune - 'Wayne Rooney's toe'?
After all we already have these on file here:
The Heel And Toe, The Pope's Toe, Peter Big Toe, Jimmy Donkey's Big Toe, Heel Toe, Joe The Yankee's Big Toe & of course, not forgetting - The Bag Of Pota-toes
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
which reminds me.
what is the difference between a sock and a camera
a sock takes 5 toes whereas a camera takes....
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by gedpipes
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Traditional to start, especially if you havent played together before. The reason being is that everyone then has a starting point of reference, particularily for the settings of the tunes, of which there are numerous, and also for tempo, regional style etc.
Whats wrong with just playing tunes anyway?
I get alot of enjoyment from the old tunes yet, and there are enough variations to keep me going after nearly 20yrs. Am I the only one?
By the way, VERY nice playing, your very talented!
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by blas
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
I wouldn't walk into a strange session and start pushing the envelope. But among friends, as long as all are consenting adults, there is no problem with taking liberties with the tradition, and stretching things a little bit. At my favorite session, we sometimes bring in Scot and other tunes, often without anyone but us noticing, and once or twice a night, we often play something American. But the man who brings us our free drinks runs an Irish pub, which creates certain expectations, so we try to keep that in mind, and not stray too far afield.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Get on with your exams matey - not all over yet are they ?
Do you really believe we enjoy all that flashy bow work, fancy syncopation and weird key changes you insist on forcing upon us Bristol lot.
Thank goodness we've had a break from that sort of nonsense while you are being examined (closely).
We've finally been able to concentrate on playing The Kesh exactly as notated in the "100 Hakneyed Session Faves" book
(However - isn't it actually very traditional to 'mess with tunes' - its what I seem to hear from the playing of well respected players right since the earliest recordings until now ? ).
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Col Arco
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
I thought the Kesh was in the '100 Dead Horses', not the '100 Hackneyed'....
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
I have to agree with blas -- I enjoy just playing the old tunes. Of course, I try to vary them a bit each time I play, but I do so within the parameters of the tradition. And there are countless possibilites within those parameters, so I know I'll never get bored.
My understanding of a tradition (musical or otherwise) is that it is something that is passed down, more-or-less intact, from one generation to another. So, if you love traditional Irish music, why would you go to a Irish session and then play the music in a way that takes away the Irishness?
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by print o' the wave
Re: Poll: Traditional Playing in a Session, or not?
Evening all.
Most of the sessions I play in are mainly ITM, not strictly. They're more folky than trad I'd say (depending on who turns up). I gotta say when I'm in Ireland, I tone it down a bit just to be on the safe side (people have got mightly p*ssed off in the past with me playing non-trad, my dad included!). Mind you, when I'm in a more folky session with songs and music from other parts of the world, I do happen to mess about a wee bit.
By the way has anyone noticed that the top Irish bands don't play trad: take Lunasa and Flook for example. Even Teada and Danu aren't particularly trad. And yet they're great exponents of the music.
Graham, I expect a nice pint of champagne lined up tomorrow night at the Barley Mow Lunatic Asylum - areet?!
Thinking positively: Gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail gonna fail.
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by Choonz