I suppose that in the old days, a lot of players made their living from labouring on farms or building sites or whatever and that this thickened the muscles and tendons in their arms and hands. Almost none of the players I know now do this kind of work, they seem almost without exception to be computer-programmers, administrators, teachers, and so on. As someone who is labouring for a living, I wonder if anyone has advice about how to maintain dexterity ? My fingers do slow down and get stiffer, no doubt about it.
One thing I've found that helps me fight finger stiffness when I'm not playing is gently squeezing a rubber "super pinky" ball. It's mindless, great to do while driving or walking somewhere and keeps the blood flowing to all the right muscles. You can even squeeze harder if you want to build a little strength.
I work with my hands at various things, one jewelry making, which involves a lot of manual labor, I make all my own parts pretty much, and drawing/pulling your own wire is very grueling physically, I know I have very strong wrists, arms and upper back. For guitar playing the fretting wrist and forearm is a lot of it if you want to run up and down the neck fast enough to keep up with those fiddlers and box players! If your wrist/arm is strong you don't really even need to hold onto the neck with your thumb in the back, which slows your speed down. Then again maybe it has nothing to do with it? I've seen some muscular guys hang onto that neck with a death grip. Still I think if the muscles were weak it would be rougher to play.
Never thought of it, nor would I know if had I not been pulling wire, hammering metals, filing metal etc. if things would be weaker, but maybe it helps. The jewelry making has been just the past ten years and I played before that, but also always working with my hands, and carried a lot of heavy stuff, buckets of liquids and paper....stacks of paper are surprisingly heavy, like hauling wood. Speaking of which, heating your house with wood comes under the manual labor heading too doesn't it. I am a nut who loves the woodstove and carrying wood. Saves a lot of $ too these days.
I hear knitting and other handiwork keeps joints loose too, I know knitter/fiddlers, maybe it keeps things loose?
I have known some great fiddlers who also worked contruction, some were pretty rough guys and then you'd hear this amazing music coming from them....it was so strange!!
In any case, good to remain active and keep the muscles in shape, which in turn must somehow help in playing music. Can't hurt that's for sure.
It depends on the individual, I'm sure, but I've noticed that a hard day of carpentry or fencing can slow my fingers down for a day or two - and the same goes for many of my adult pupils, with gardening being the usual culprit. However, I decided a long time ago that I love my hobby (horses and the manual labour that goes with them) too much to give it up in case I knacker my hands. Probably a daft decision considering I make my living playing...
There is a difference between strength and agility. I believe it helps to be physically fit to play music, and I believe that hand and finger strength are extremely useful, although you shouldn't be too dependant it. But wear and tear on joints, tendons and even skin must compromise playing ability to some extent. I certainly notice it, myself.
Things you might do to minimise the effect of heavy work and weather? Wear gloves as much as possible. A good heavy pair of work gloves will mean less callouses and injuries, and if cold is an issue they will be a big help. If you get a snug-ish fit they probably give your joints a little support, too. There ara a lot of nutritional supplements you can use - lots of people swear by cod liver oil capsules - it's worth looking into.
Stretching exercises for the hands. You can probably make these up for yourself. I find they help some of my pupils.
I find good old fashioned rub on ointments or linaments - especially at bedtime - a great help for sore joints. (God, no wonder I'm sleeping alone!)
One of the best fiddlers I know is a landscaper who works with his hands constantly.
I am a court reporter which means I use my hands constantly. But the motions are different, it's all very fine-finger movements, like fiddle. Even when my hands and wrists are a bit sore from a long couple-three days, though I don't notice any difference in my playing. I guess the movements are different?
Calcium and magnesium taken in combination are great muscle relaxers and a reason I have far fewer hand and wrist problems than many CRs. I'm sure they'd have the same benefit for construction worker/fiddler.
Kris...right sometimes with too much it does hurt the next day. Usually I forget the pain though while playing.
I do have right shoulder troubles, can get sore on a big guitar if playing all day...I switched primarily to smaller ones for that reason and have little trouble now. So position and playing a comfortable instrument helps ease of playing too. I built an ergonomic small guitar with no hard edges and a slope for under the right arm, it really does help. Hands, no problem though so far.....fingers crossed.
My last post dumped so will try again... some good friends are sending their daughter off to Vet College in Edinburgh in a few months and she's a horse lover....maybe your paths will cross. Do you ever have students at your farm from the college?
A famous name in ITM told me that you needed to have worked in the fields and dug peat to be able to play ITM. I asked if being a former miner counted, which set off a Thatcher/Scargill rant, so I think that was an affirmative.
My current job is software consultant ,so that probably ties in with the original question.
I work as a carpenter and never really notice a decline in my playing after a hard days (or weeks) work. then again I am 19 and can take more of a beating than some.
Noel Hill invited me to come and meet his children one day when he was living out in Bray. He was very busy at the time building walls and digging around the yard putting in walkways and such at the family home. He told me he felt he had lost some of his dexterity in the process and recalled how Paddy Murphy used to comment on how Noel was able to execute fingerings that Paddy could never do on account of how working on the farm had made his hands less pliable. Judging by how Noel sounded the last time I heard him -- his shovel must be in storage now.
I'm a cabinet and furniture maker, and I live on a farm, so I am constantly working with my hands, arms, and shoulders and on my feet all day.
I never have trouble with dexterity except from the cold. No matter what I do during the day, it seems I can always turn a fair triplet or run.
The thing that was the hardest was when I stopped playing altogether in the early to mid '90s and then came back to it. It took me a while to re-aquire some decent dexterity for playing. Even now, if I miss a day or two of practice, I can tell in the fingers.
Personally, I think manual labor is good for the hands and arms. It keeps the joints working and as long as you use gloves to keep from roughing up the skin, I believe its good for musicians to do a turn at *real work* occasionally.
Computer work can be some of the worst on your hands. Typing and mousing all day long puts your wrists in a nearly constant state of "static loading," which, I've read, can be very bad for the tendons and nerves that pass through the wrist. It's certainly true for me. I have to rest and stretch periodically during the day to avoid stiffness and pain.
Driving is nearly as bad for me. It's static loading again. It's not a lot of tension, but it's constant and the wrists don't like that. The nasty part is that you can get away with it for years before the symptoms are noticeable, and by the time you notice problems, there's probably already some damage.
So, ... If you're a musician, don't type, drive, push a lawn mower or walk on your hands.
Hey, I do real work. I nearly had sun stroke from playing tunes at a gig in a sunny backyard in the Oakland Hills on Saturday. I had to carry the heavy sound system up and down some steep steps too. Not for sissies.
Having done physical work and in the past and currently working with computers I honestly prefer physical tiredness to mental fatigue. Anyway, does anyone know Danny Meehan? He was working as a paving stone layer right up until recently; hope he's jacked it in by now. Looking at him play the fiddle, you'd think it was a child's toy in his huge hands but his manual dexterity is nothing short of astounding.
Yes and look at Michael Cleveland (bluegrass) who has great fat fingers like pork sausages, and he must be a candidate for the fastest fiddle on the planet. Doesn't mean he does any hard work of course.
My job doesn’t require manual labor. But I have a 1-1/2 hour roundtrip commute each day and I keep a spring hand grip in my car, and do about 300-500 reps each hand every day. Slowly and deliberately. In addition to relieving the stress of rush hour traffic, I’ve built up considerable hand strength in the last five years. It helps a lot, especially on those low B’s and F’s in the G minor tunes. I’ve noticed on occasion that after shaking someone’s hand they flex their hands afterward and I have to consciously use a gentler grip.
I don’t think it’s slowed me down too much. I play the fiddle at least an hour or two a day, as well.
Years ago I got a course of finger and arm exercises from the Cowling Institute ( somewhere in UK ). which are I think still available. They require no sponge balls or springs ! I just found this link http://www.questx.com/tables/cowling.html I think they are well worth following up. Some of them will chalenge even the most dextrous person, but with a little persistence they will start to show results.
I agree with Bobi; computer work may be just as deadly for your hands (and brain).
I had the pleasure of attending the Smithville Fiddlers' Jamboree in Middle Tennesse a few years back. Lots of old farmers with HUGE hands playing extraordinary music. I'm sure they have some joint issues, but it doesn't seem to slow down those reels.
I just always try to wear those nifty thin rubber garden gloves when I'm handling wood and grubbing around to find property corners (I'm a surveyor). It is very hard to play with splinters embedded in the hands.
As a hard rock miner i get to play with 120 pound rock drills all day long so to say the least It's very physical work. To maintain flexability in my wrists and to avoid serious cramping in the forearm, I use a gryoscopic ball that goes as fast or as slow as the user wants it to go. It's great for relaxing my wrist and keeping the blood flow in my forearms.
I used to accompany a fiddle/guitar/4 string banjo player who was a busy stone mason by day trade. When I asked him how he protected his hands for his other job, he replied "I wear gloves". He also fell from a chimney and broke his collarbone, rotator cuff and three ribs. He was playing the fiddle at a gig the next weekend. He generally kept in musical form by playing every day, never missing one.
I had this conversation with a friend of mine who is a welder, sawyer, and a farmer. He tells me that after a hard day working his three jobs he is often too tense and tired to play well, but once he becomes mesmerized by playing, he relaxes and the music just flows.
If you are used to hard labor and you are not injured in a way that will interfere with playing, it should not make a difference in manual dexterity.
You will hear very good musicians state that you have to be in the trades or a farmer to understand the tradition. I've heard this in Ireland and in North America and they were talking about two different traditions, both rural in origin. But to my mind musicianship and playing the music (whatever tradtition) is more of a function of the individual although it really helps to be brought up in the tradition.
It is more likely that you will be a master at a music that was in your family for generations and has been in the community longer than you have, but traditions can be carried on by those who are dedicated to the music. I can think of a number of musicians who fit this bill, some of whom are day laborers (to bring this back to the original point.)
I tried to post this earlier but got tangled and started it as a new thread. It seems more relevant here.
My dad is 74 and he has worked with his hands all his life. They are massive but he plays the pipes well and has recently taken up tenor banjo. A doctor pal suggested to me that a lifetime of the accurate finger placements required to avoid losing your fingers to saws, hammers and other more heavy hingmayjigs encountered in work would not be a hindrance to playing. He also said that every evening manual workers should stretch out their finger to avoid having their hands set into a curve.
Wodeninjun
Newfie, I’d really like to hear more about that gryoscopic ball. Like, how do you use it? Is it motorized? I’ve lately found myself mentally inventing exercise gizmos to give my hands and arms the physical therapy they need. I hadn’t thought of using a gyroscope, but I’m imagining some possibilities.
Thanks to everyone who has posted. The comments are encouraging and it sounds like I should keep stretching and exercising my hands, and wearing gloves. Yoga for the hands maybe ? Tried the finger control exercises off the website and found them really difficult. Cheers everyone.
Manual labour and musical dexterity
Manual labour and musical dexterity
I suppose that in the old days, a lot of players made their living from labouring on farms or building sites or whatever and that this thickened the muscles and tendons in their arms and hands. Almost none of the players I know now do this kind of work, they seem almost without exception to be computer-programmers, administrators, teachers, and so on. As someone who is labouring for a living, I wonder if anyone has advice about how to maintain dexterity ? My fingers do slow down and get stiffer, no doubt about it.
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by Nick Spencer
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
One thing I've found that helps me fight finger stiffness when I'm not playing is gently squeezing a rubber "super pinky" ball. It's mindless, great to do while driving or walking somewhere and keeps the blood flowing to all the right muscles. You can even squeeze harder if you want to build a little strength.
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by Upsetter
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
I work with my hands at various things, one jewelry making, which involves a lot of manual labor, I make all my own parts pretty much, and drawing/pulling your own wire is very grueling physically, I know I have very strong wrists, arms and upper back. For guitar playing the fretting wrist and forearm is a lot of it if you want to run up and down the neck fast enough to keep up with those fiddlers and box players! If your wrist/arm is strong you don't really even need to hold onto the neck with your thumb in the back, which slows your speed down. Then again maybe it has nothing to do with it? I've seen some muscular guys hang onto that neck with a death grip. Still I think if the muscles were weak it would be rougher to play.
Never thought of it, nor would I know if had I not been pulling wire, hammering metals, filing metal etc. if things would be weaker, but maybe it helps. The jewelry making has been just the past ten years and I played before that, but also always working with my hands, and carried a lot of heavy stuff, buckets of liquids and paper....stacks of paper are surprisingly heavy, like hauling wood. Speaking of which, heating your house with wood comes under the manual labor heading too doesn't it. I am a nut who loves the woodstove and carrying wood. Saves a lot of $ too these days.
I hear knitting and other handiwork keeps joints loose too, I know knitter/fiddlers, maybe it keeps things loose?
I have known some great fiddlers who also worked contruction, some were pretty rough guys and then you'd hear this amazing music coming from them....it was so strange!!
In any case, good to remain active and keep the muscles in shape, which in turn must somehow help in playing music. Can't hurt that's for sure.
Interesting topic here!
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
It depends on the individual, I'm sure, but I've noticed that a hard day of carpentry or fencing can slow my fingers down for a day or two - and the same goes for many of my adult pupils, with gardening being the usual culprit. However, I decided a long time ago that I love my hobby (horses and the manual labour that goes with them) too much to give it up in case I knacker my hands. Probably a daft decision considering I make my living playing...
There is a difference between strength and agility. I believe it helps to be physically fit to play music, and I believe that hand and finger strength are extremely useful, although you shouldn't be too dependant it. But wear and tear on joints, tendons and even skin must compromise playing ability to some extent. I certainly notice it, myself.
Things you might do to minimise the effect of heavy work and weather? Wear gloves as much as possible. A good heavy pair of work gloves will mean less callouses and injuries, and if cold is an issue they will be a big help. If you get a snug-ish fit they probably give your joints a little support, too. There ara a lot of nutritional supplements you can use - lots of people swear by cod liver oil capsules - it's worth looking into.
Stretching exercises for the hands. You can probably make these up for yourself. I find they help some of my pupils.
I find good old fashioned rub on ointments or linaments - especially at bedtime - a great help for sore joints. (God, no wonder I'm sleeping alone!)
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by kris
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
One of the best fiddlers I know is a landscaper who works with his hands constantly.
I am a court reporter which means I use my hands constantly. But the motions are different, it's all very fine-finger movements, like fiddle. Even when my hands and wrists are a bit sore from a long couple-three days, though I don't notice any difference in my playing. I guess the movements are different?
Calcium and magnesium taken in combination are great muscle relaxers and a reason I have far fewer hand and wrist problems than many CRs. I'm sure they'd have the same benefit for construction worker/fiddler.
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
Most of the construction worker/fiddlers I have known in the past wouldn't touch a vitamin or mineral, LOL! It was meat and potatoes and beer....LOL!!
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
Kris...right sometimes with too much it does hurt the next day. Usually I forget the pain though while playing.
I do have right shoulder troubles, can get sore on a big guitar if playing all day...I switched primarily to smaller ones for that reason and have little trouble now. So position and playing a comfortable instrument helps ease of playing too. I built an ergonomic small guitar with no hard edges and a slope for under the right arm, it really does help. Hands, no problem though so far.....fingers crossed.
My last post dumped so will try again... some good friends are sending their daughter off to Vet College in Edinburgh in a few months and she's a horse lover....maybe your paths will cross. Do you ever have students at your farm from the college?
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
A famous name in ITM told me that you needed to have worked in the fields and dug peat to be able to play ITM. I asked if being a former miner counted, which set off a Thatcher/Scargill rant, so I think that was an affirmative.
My current job is software consultant ,so that probably ties in with the original question.
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
In spite of, not because of, Kris L.O.L .
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by duffgen
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
I read/heard somewhere that drinking RED wine is bad for your joints . . ?
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by Justintime
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
It is
if you spill it on them while you're drinking.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by ʎɹoʇısuɐɹʇ
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
I work as a carpenter and never really notice a decline in my playing after a hard days (or weeks) work. then again I am 19 and can take more of a beating than some.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by RumRebellion
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
Noel Hill invited me to come and meet his children one day when he was living out in Bray. He was very busy at the time building walls and digging around the yard putting in walkways and such at the family home. He told me he felt he had lost some of his dexterity in the process and recalled how Paddy Murphy used to comment on how Noel was able to execute fingerings that Paddy could never do on account of how working on the farm had made his hands less pliable. Judging by how Noel sounded the last time I heard him -- his shovel must be in storage now.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
I'm a cabinet and furniture maker, and I live on a farm, so I am constantly working with my hands, arms, and shoulders and on my feet all day.
I never have trouble with dexterity except from the cold. No matter what I do during the day, it seems I can always turn a fair triplet or run.
The thing that was the hardest was when I stopped playing altogether in the early to mid '90s and then came back to it. It took me a while to re-aquire some decent dexterity for playing. Even now, if I miss a day or two of practice, I can tell in the fingers.
Personally, I think manual labor is good for the hands and arms. It keeps the joints working and as long as you use gloves to keep from roughing up the skin, I believe its good for musicians to do a turn at *real work* occasionally.
Roger
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by rogfox
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
Computer work can be some of the worst on your hands. Typing and mousing all day long puts your wrists in a nearly constant state of "static loading," which, I've read, can be very bad for the tendons and nerves that pass through the wrist. It's certainly true for me. I have to rest and stretch periodically during the day to avoid stiffness and pain.
Driving is nearly as bad for me. It's static loading again. It's not a lot of tension, but it's constant and the wrists don't like that. The nasty part is that you can get away with it for years before the symptoms are noticeable, and by the time you notice problems, there's probably already some damage.
So, ... If you're a musician, don't type, drive, push a lawn mower or walk on your hands.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
Gonna jump down, turn around,
click and drag my mousey.
Gonna jump down, turn around, click and drag all day.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by ʎɹoʇısuɐɹʇ
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
It's been an interesting by-product of this thread to identify some of the members who actually do "real" work!
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by kris
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
Hey, I do real work. I nearly had sun stroke from playing tunes at a gig in a sunny backyard in the Oakland Hills on Saturday. I had to carry the heavy sound system up and down some steep steps too. Not for sissies.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
Having done physical work and in the past and currently working with computers I honestly prefer physical tiredness to mental fatigue. Anyway, does anyone know Danny Meehan? He was working as a paving stone layer right up until recently; hope he's jacked it in by now. Looking at him play the fiddle, you'd think it was a child's toy in his huge hands but his manual dexterity is nothing short of astounding.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
Yes and look at Michael Cleveland (bluegrass) who has great fat fingers like pork sausages, and he must be a candidate for the fastest fiddle on the planet. Doesn't mean he does any hard work of course.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by Nick Spencer
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
My job doesn’t require manual labor. But I have a 1-1/2 hour roundtrip commute each day and I keep a spring hand grip in my car, and do about 300-500 reps each hand every day. Slowly and deliberately. In addition to relieving the stress of rush hour traffic, I’ve built up considerable hand strength in the last five years. It helps a lot, especially on those low B’s and F’s in the G minor tunes. I’ve noticed on occasion that after shaking someone’s hand they flex their hands afterward and I have to consciously use a gentler grip.
I don’t think it’s slowed me down too much. I play the fiddle at least an hour or two a day, as well.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
Years ago I got a course of finger and arm exercises from the Cowling Institute ( somewhere in UK ). which are I think still available. They require no sponge balls or springs
! I just found this link http://www.questx.com/tables/cowling.html I think they are well worth following up. Some of them will chalenge even the most dextrous person, but with a little persistence they will start to show results.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by Backer
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
I agree with Bobi; computer work may be just as deadly for your hands (and brain).
I had the pleasure of attending the Smithville Fiddlers' Jamboree in Middle Tennesse a few years back. Lots of old farmers with HUGE hands playing extraordinary music. I'm sure they have some joint issues, but it doesn't seem to slow down those reels.
I just always try to wear those nifty thin rubber garden gloves when I'm handling wood and grubbing around to find property corners (I'm a surveyor). It is very hard to play with splinters embedded in the hands.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by Michele Sims
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
As a hard rock miner i get to play with 120 pound rock drills all day long so to say the least It's very physical work. To maintain flexability in my wrists and to avoid serious cramping in the forearm, I use a gryoscopic ball that goes as fast or as slow as the user wants it to go. It's great for relaxing my wrist and keeping the blood flow in my forearms.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by newfie percussionist
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
I used to accompany a fiddle/guitar/4 string banjo player who was a busy stone mason by day trade. When I asked him how he protected his hands for his other job, he replied "I wear gloves". He also fell from a chimney and broke his collarbone, rotator cuff and three ribs. He was playing the fiddle at a gig the next weekend. He generally kept in musical form by playing every day, never missing one.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by vonnieestes
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
I had this conversation with a friend of mine who is a welder, sawyer, and a farmer. He tells me that after a hard day working his three jobs he is often too tense and tired to play well, but once he becomes mesmerized by playing, he relaxes and the music just flows.
If you are used to hard labor and you are not injured in a way that will interfere with playing, it should not make a difference in manual dexterity.
You will hear very good musicians state that you have to be in the trades or a farmer to understand the tradition. I've heard this in Ireland and in North America and they were talking about two different traditions, both rural in origin. But to my mind musicianship and playing the music (whatever tradtition) is more of a function of the individual although it really helps to be brought up in the tradition.
It is more likely that you will be a master at a music that was in your family for generations and has been in the community longer than you have, but traditions can be carried on by those who are dedicated to the music. I can think of a number of musicians who fit this bill, some of whom are day laborers (to bring this back to the original point.)
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjossessions.com
# Posted on June 6th 2006 by mikeyes
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
I tried to post this earlier but got tangled and started it as a new thread. It seems more relevant here.
My dad is 74 and he has worked with his hands all his life. They are massive but he plays the pipes well and has recently taken up tenor banjo. A doctor pal suggested to me that a lifetime of the accurate finger placements required to avoid losing your fingers to saws, hammers and other more heavy hingmayjigs encountered in work would not be a hindrance to playing. He also said that every evening manual workers should stretch out their finger to avoid having their hands set into a curve.
Wodeninjun
# Posted on June 6th 2006 by wodeninjun
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
Newfie, I’d really like to hear more about that gryoscopic ball. Like, how do you use it? Is it motorized? I’ve lately found myself mentally inventing exercise gizmos to give my hands and arms the physical therapy they need. I hadn’t thought of using a gyroscope, but I’m imagining some possibilities.
# Posted on June 6th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Manual labour and musical dexterity
Thanks to everyone who has posted. The comments are encouraging and it sounds like I should keep stretching and exercising my hands, and wearing gloves. Yoga for the hands maybe ? Tried the finger control exercises off the website and found them really difficult. Cheers everyone.
# Posted on June 7th 2006 by Nick Spencer