Why the hell are other members of the session always so critical of the young people in sessions?! I never hear a good word! Remember, we're the future PLUS some tunes are supposed to fast and not all played at a boring old doddery pace where the triplets sound laboured and one time through the tune feels like it has already gone on too long. I know I'll get bombarded with angry people now but it has to be said!!!
i agree, as a fellow young folkie who like sessions to be wild and crazy, i think that old people who only like tunes such as 'davy davy nick nack' and 'winster gallop' (not saying they are bad tunes) should stop being so old and slow! also slow tunes dont go well on the banjo.
haha 35 and still sounding like a legend! well you could be one of those old people who are mint in sessions, not yet obviously, but in years to come you can be a cool old person who sits and drinks beer with the crazy students and plays banging tunes with a pipe in your mouth.
Urgh, don't mention shoe the donkey, some older people (adulty people) at one of the folkworks summer schools appeared to be taking great pleasure in playing that damn tune at 3 in the morning when i was trying to sleep directly above them (this was early on in the week before i stopped sleeping). The worst bit was, they were in a conservetory, I was on the 4th floor, the windows could be fully opened and none of the furniture in the room was screwed down. In the end I decided not to drop the bedside table, but it was very close!! If there'd have been an angry person to hand though, I'd have lobbed them out without a second thought!!
The question is: is your fast session fast and tight, or fast and scrappy? If it is fast and scrappy then it is probably not very musical, and of course the oldsters have heard thousands of fast scrappy sessions and know how common and unsatisfactory they are. Whilst the players can imagine they are playing like Frankie Gavin, and might well be, all you hear on the outside is the familiar train crash. The key to keeping the oldsters happy is to play a hornpipe every half hour, and, if you have difficulty playing slow triplets then hornpipes are good for your technique.
Anyway, it is true about the way young people are treated on here - sorry if i've been wound up by it or caused offense but it just bugs me the way young people are always sniped at!
Anyway, I know lots of brilliant old people who love all kinds of tunes. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I don't want people ganging up on me! All I basically mean is - lay off the young people who play fast tunes nicely!
michael,
I'm going to see if I can find a truely awful bodhran player and send him into bell's the next time you're in there. Then we'll see if you've truely grown up..........hopefully I'll prove a point and rid the world of a bad bodhranista at the same time!!
i was talking to llig leachim with the comment i made earlier...stop being so closed minded, young people always get the stick for "taking over the session" and "playing too fast." but if u ask me then young people should be allowed to play in the way they like to play, and if there are old people who like slow tunes and are complaining about the young people, then they shouldnt be in that kind of session in the first place.
The problem arises from speed for the sake of it. When you are young, (and I'm speaking not just from years and years of observation, but I was also young once) there is an aspirational aspect to being able to play fast. It's an effort, a hurdle. It is something to prove. And like every part of this music, it will only begin to sound any good when it is no longer an effort.
i dont think its true to say it will only begin sound any good when its no longer an effort. i put a lot of effort in when playing folk music, simply to make it sound good, if i didnt put as much effort in then it wouldnt half sound as good.
Oh p*ss! I just wrote a whole bunch of sh*te then my computer didn't post it.
Anywho, to summarize what I wrote. There are a bunch of people in this world who need to get the stick out of their arse, and they come in all ages. Old people need to be more inclusive, and us young guys need to slow down. It is fecking dance music, the point is to have fun. So now lets all go and have a tune at our own tempos and when you go to a session, play with the leader of the tune.
So Joe... say you go to a session to play some tunes, but the tunes are being played at a moderate pace instead of the way you prefer to play them. What do you do?
I'd like to stir things up a bit here....
Old people complain so much about young people playing fast because they can't cope with the pace! <--Joke
Playing fast does not = spoiling the music / not playing tight etc etc. Playing faster does (in general) give however, give more energy to the music and makes it flow smoother. A session is all about having fun, and playing fast is exciting, hence fun. But playing too fast if you can't bash out the tune well enough is a bit pointless.
I do have to say though, playing at a moderate pace but making it groovy is a lot of fun too. Have to say that old folks, generally speaking, are less adept at making the music tasty. No offense intended. This is a generalisation, and the possible reason for this is that a large % of older players started later in life than the younger players of today.
Have to say though, I have had loads of stick from older players over the years, even since I was a kid, about 'playing too fast' or 'not playing traditionally' - some of which has been pretty damn offensive. But I think that in some cases, it's pure jealousy under the guise of 'you're playing too fast'.
You can't take an entire genre, or age, of people, and say that they're all this or that. What it all boils down to, Joe, is not old people, because I know of many young or youngish arseholes as well. It boils down to intolerance, and people taking whoever thinks differently from them and treating them with utter contempt. I've taken a fair amount of negativity from old and young alike, and given some back as well, so I know the rudimentary details.
Oh, and a word of advice to would-be lecturers: I know two people, one of whom offers constant criticism/advice/complaints/opinions, and one who rarely gets angry. I have been admonished many a time by the former, and only once by the latter-but the one that I got from the latter left a bigger impression than the countless times from the former.
No one will take anyone's advice to heart if they give it unasked at all times. But if the you rarely comment on someone's musicianship, they'll know if you tell them off that you mean it, and that it's important.
Zazzaliss, by freely handing out advice as you've done above, have you not automatically categorised yourself as the former of the two "would-be lecturers"? Maybe you should have saved your opinion for a more pertinent moment?
Apologies, I'm taking the p*ss.
P.S. Sarcasm/irony/humour really don't come across well on messageboards.
If ther person who is critisizing you is that great a player, why aren't they famous in the ITM world? Some of the best players I have ever met were also some of the nicest people I have ever met. Of course, there is a certain Piper who is a real asshole over the internet, but is apparently nice in person.
SOme people have all the talent, skill, and experience in the world but don;t desire the fame and pain-in-the-ass factor that comes with it. Irish music is cool because these folks are approachable humans. Be thankful for it. One of the more stand-offish local players ( very good, helpful in some respects) has a lot more of a reputation than some very good players who come across as more open or friendly.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
Could you clear up a few questions I have about your post?
First, do you mean other people who play in session? Or do you really mean "old" people? And if you you mean"old" people, what age are you talking about?
Or, second, do you mean people who have been playing in the session for a while. And especially, since before you started to play in the session?
And third, could you give some speicific example? What is it that they say that you think is critical?
Just trying to be clear about what you mean before I jump to any conclusions.
Part of me wants to ignore this type of discussion because it makes me feel as if I'm on the bus again, stuck in traffic. Yet I've been struck by the same attitudes as the original poster reckognized, and I was affected, so I'll add my 'two cents' worth.'
I'm young. I'm reserved and polite at jams and sessions, and I don't *think* my music is crap. Depends on what you classify as 'crap,' I suppose, but I have been complemented by older musicians several times. I don't get drunk when I play, and I see this really crawls up peoples' sleeves sometimes, excessive drinking.. In fact, I don't really drink when I play music at all, because it causes a lot of mistakes or just causes me to want to drink more, or both. Did I come to knock 'em back or play some music? They're two different things to me. If I'm banging around in a living room or garage that's one thing.. When playing private parties where I'm a little more relaxed and there's less tension, generally speaking, then I'll take a few drinks. And on those nights when I walk out the door with warm cheeks and some money in my pocket, I really feel as if things paid off well.. But if someone is paying me to perform a scheduled gig or I am going out to learn new music and new ways of playing old music from other people then I'll refrain.
I've enjoyed mild success in several bands with older people. So they're not all jerks (HA! I can't believe I'm actually talking about this.). But some are, and I've found that that crowd is also 99% more likely than the younger crowd to brush off or ignore me, too.
I dropped out of the local bluegrass scene partly because the older crowd anchoring it was very unwelcoming and quite unfriendly, it seemed, to anyone new, or, young. Of course, this is a broad general statement and I did meet some wonderful people playing in those circles. But the pillars and anchors of the community seemed wary of my very presence, unwilling to talk to me, very reserved, and generally 'standoffish.' You can only take being completely ignored so many times before you pull up your tent and go somewhere else. I don't play in those circles any more, and I don't mind a bit. I get my kicks elsewhere.
I think it all winds down to competition. There is a very limited audience in my area for this school of music, and very few gigs to be had which will pay any kind of good money, outside of playing private parties. Additionally, many of the musicians here have known each other for a long time, and any 'young blood' is likely suspicious upon first meeting for these reasons. My old banjo player once told me that he doesn't like having younger players in his band because they usually come and go too quickly to make any real difference in the group, and he prefers not to chase them around all the time. This is partly true, but I think that younger people have a different outlook on life, and thus a different outlook on music and bands, etc. I think a lot of younger people act like younger people (drinking, talking too much, being stupid, inconsiderate, etc) also, and this just can't be helped, except by letting the person know that he's acting like a jerk and to please stop whichever behavior is affecting the group.
If you don't see yourself acting like this, then to hell with it, I say, and just keep trying or find something else to do with your time. So the issue is a combination of competition, behavior, and outlook. See, I don't mind if a guitar player leaves. I have a long list of guitarists to sort through. And if someone else can play better than I can then it means we can get better gigs. Someone else leaves? Fine. It's no pain to me, and, if anything, means that when a gig is to be played, there's one less person with whome to split the pot.
"Remember, we're the future PLUS some tunes are supposed to fast..."
I really don't think that certain tunes are supposed to be played at a set tempo.
"..and not all played at a boring old doddery pace where the triplets sound laboured and one time through the tune feels like it has already gone on too long.."
Question, are you talking about when YOU play the tune or when "old people" play them? If it's the former, then I think you should learn to play the tune with some sort of swing instead of making it sound like you're intentionally slowing it down.
---
I agree with lamh trom regarding the pace and respect for the tradition.
I personally hate playing at a quick pace. It's nice to listen to but playing it for me is a bit of a turn off. You lose the tune that way. It's much more satisfying to know that you're doing the tune a bit of justice by actually playing it out.
On a semi-other note, I think more people should read Breandan Breathnach's Folk Music and Dances of Ireland and Allen Feldman/Eamonn O'Doherty's The Northern Fiddler. They're really informative reads and it gives you a lot of background information regarding the tradition.
i prefer the slow music. fast is great and fun, but most people wreck it. some people play fast and it sounds bad, and other people can play twice as fast and it sounds good.
the best musicians can play slow and make your heart melt. poor musicians play fast and hope you dont notice the lack of musicality. the best musicians can play fast just as well as they can play slow. poor musicians can only play fast well.
i am of the latter camp... the poor musicians who can play quickly.
Aye Armand, both good reads, but I don't think you would want to swallow everything that Breathnach said. For example, he firmly believed that if you knew the author of a tune then it couldn't be classed as Traditional. He maintained that for a tune to truly qualify as 'Traditional' it had to be played & passed on aurally until the composer was forgotten!
I can see where he was coming from & to an extent I go along with it, but on the other hand I think of poor old Ed Reevey & Charlie Lennon & all the great tunes they've given us. Both men are so steeped in the tradition that there tunes surely can't be classed as anything else but traditional.
Sorry Joe, I know this has nothing to do with your thread but then I'm just an old, fat git who regularly plays with young folk too & also very young folk & I have to say I enjoy trad music at all speeds - as long as it is being played well & 'together'! Sloppy music at any speed is just - SLOP!
As I'm not an ageist though, I have no desire to get involved in this petty squable!
Oooops! Just did .................
I've a message for all you young people out there. You're doing yourselves no favours. Stop writing banal crap on this message board and start contributing constructively. If you need to prove something, prove that at least you can do that. If you can actually play the music, how about you post some of your unique settings of tunes in the tunes section, or ask some questions about technique, or if you think you're really good, give some hints of your own about technique. Something like that. Just anything but this meaningless rubbish.
I have to disagree with you there Dow! - he said bravely...........
I notice that at least one 'newbie' youngster has contributed to this thread & although the content here isn't exactly earth-shattering, I think any thread that encourages younger, newer members to participate on the board has to be welcomed & encouraged & I think Joe himself hasn't made a bad contribution in other departments here already!
If we don't accept all manner of discussions here, the old hands here are in danger of turning into those dreaded old farts & old dears that are on committees up & down the country, who hang onto their positions cause they reckon the youngsters don't know their arse from their elbow & have no experience.
I think we should welcome them in here, let them gain some experience & give them a chance to discuss whatever turns them on.
So OK, it might not be to your taste or mine, but at least it gets them used to the format here & I'm sure, in time, they'll graviate towards more serious & meatier topics, no doubt with some more gentle encouragement from your good self, along the way.
[ OK youngsters, have I patronised you enough yet? ]
Pssst .... Ya just gotta keep in with them Dow, cause you never know when you might meet one face to face, & let's face it, a decrepit auld man is no match for any of those young dudes!
Er..em... I was of course referring to myself as decrepit, by the way ........
P.S. In truth, I really quite enjoy the silly threads here, as you may have noticed!
"Rubbish" is a very appropriate word. But young people, including me, should be allowed to be stupid.
The thing is, it really doesn't matter how fast or slow you play this sort of music as long as you don't go off rhythm. When your playing is very steady, you can decide yourself how fast or slow you play.
Besides, dealing with rubbish helps old people's blood circulation.
Dow's message to "all of you young people out there"
overlooks the fact that there are plenty of "young people out there" already making useful contributions here in all sections, tunes section included.
Well, I'm 50, and if anybody tries shoeing and donkeys and then galloping them to winster in my company I am likely to act very childishly and say something cutting. So much for growing up...
I do think happycamper has a very valid and interesting point about some of the older players who started later in life being a pain and throwing their weight around and complaining that more able players are not including them.
As for the older ones who have been playing most of their lives - a few are very rude and many are annoying drunks in my experience. So the young folk don't have a corner on that market.
I've just had some other thoughts on this, but I think they deserve a different thread. See ya there.
That's the best point so far Slainte. Some one earlier posted, "playing faster does give more energy to the music and makes it flow smoother". This is of course rubbish because as we know, it's about phrasing.
You often hear people overcoming certain hurdles of ability, which roughly divide as follows:
a. beginner
b. aspiring to play fast and making a balls up of it
c. being able to keep reasonably steady phrasing at spead, but completely unable to hold it steady when even just a little bit slower, (hence the daft notion mentioned above about faster being smoother.)
d. realising the error of c. and learning to contol it at a slower pace.
e. effortlessly transfering this essential skill to the faster pace.
f. effortlessly rejoicing in the fact that you will always be a.
pip pip, away with all the oxygen stealing coffin dodgers they should be stuck at home on their comodes wearing slippers and smoking their ciggy's through their tracheoctomy holes.
So when someone says it’s harder to stay in time when it’s
played slowly really means that it’s harder for them to notice it
being all over the place when played fast.
Irish music is not a hotted up dragster and no one is likely to get killed on the roads, revin' it up a bit. Fast cars are much more dangerous!
Youthful creativity shouldn't be denied. How are youngsters ever to to find their own limits if they are stifled from the exploration? Its up to the elder to think young and not expect the youngster to think old. Why should they, they're invincible!!!
Good old Kris - I don't think old people who could play well, slow down much, more that many old people could never play fast, even in their youth.
Approaching my fourth decade of sessions, I am still accused of playing too fast.
Nevertheless, I can hear the youngsters skipping notes when playing too fast. I take great delight in pinching their flash reels and playing them quarter speed as hornpipes, just to watch them fluff their fingering that they never learned properly in the first place.
Practise slowly, you young reel-pushers.
I also think repertoire is part and parcel of it. The oldsters who learned later in life suffer from "WinsterNickNack-itis". Whereas the oldsters who can play well, probably have forgotten more tunes than the youngsters know.
Why does it always have to be OLD v YOUNG, FAST v SLOW, GOOD v BAD, TRAD(OLD) tunes v NEW tunes and so on? Sorry for shouting.
In the real world, it is often a mixture of all of these and why not? Older people can often play tunes really fast too when it suits them and good younger players can enjoy playing slower tunes...which are actually harder.
We should all listen to and appreciate each other's contributions. And help one and other along the way.
Less competition and more co-operation.
I must be mis-reading some people's posts...is anyone actually saying "playing a tune slower is harder than playing it faster"? I can't imagine this to be entirely true (although more effort has to be put into phrasing if the tune is slowed), because surely the slower the fingers move the easier it is to have them in the right place from a purely physical point of view? Although at a higher speed it's easier to miss the little mistakes so are people just saying that there are a lot of musicians who can "gabble" a tune at speed without being able to play it properly (ie at any tempo within reason)?
ok, so us kids know how to have fun in a session, and in all honesty..its so much more fun to wear yourself out with some mega-speed tunes.. but old people can't assume that we don't like slow tunes..some tunes (eg tanteeka) only sound good at a slow leisurely pace..so we'd play them to wind down a bit. it is wrong to play a slowish tune fast..but thats why we dont tend to play them as much..nobody wants to ruin a good tune! old people can go and have their own session if they want to play only slow hornpipes because their fingers no longer move fast..
PS joe o'connor's ace
I am completely behind joe on this one, in fact I have just read a comment posted on a different discussion in which somebody said 'let's p*ss off these flashy youngsters'. That is exactly what we have had enough of.
When I browse through these discussions I am often offended and irritated by older people bitching about fast sessions and how young people play too fast.
Firstly, this isn't classical music; there aren't any guidelines written on the top of a tune telling you the speed it should be played at, we should play tunes at whatever speed feels right.
Furthermore, isn't the point of folk music and sessions to have a good time whilst sharing and appreciating other people's music? We want to enjoy ourselves and you can't deny that playing brilliant tunes really fast is fun.
Also, young people are the future! Harsh comments could put us all off playing traditional music and I'm sure older people want this music to carry on in the future, so just lay off us a bit.
And, don't forget, you're supposed to be setting an example. I hope I'm not complaining about young people in a few years time, because I will remember what it was like to enjoy fast and furious sessions as well as beautiful slower tunes.
Finally, Joe O'Connor is the master of slow tunes. Amen.
I don't think that some members of the session are especially crtical of young people. They are also critical of old people. They are also critical of playing too fast. They are also critical of playing too slow. Heck, they would be critical of donkeys if donkeys could play music. If you have something to say, I bet you can find someone to criticize it.
Sometimes it is fun to play fast, sometimes it is fun to play slow. Sometimes the energy of youth invigorates a session. Sometimes the wisdom of age and style that comes from years of experience invigorates a session.
Music is a blessing! Enjoy it!
Young and old mix very well in our regular sessions here with a mutual respect flowing in both directions. I don't see that there is any real barrier between us.
The age range in our sessions goes from under 10's to those well into their 70's and I think it's great.
Even though many of my playing mates are into their 40's and 50's now, I like to think that we are all young at heart.
I certainly LOVE to see the younger musicians coming out and they are all made as welcome as possible. Once in a while someone will go a bit OTT and then there is a bit of quiet friendly advice/constructive criticism - usually taken in the spirit in which it is given.
So whether it's here at thesess on at one of our sessions - ye are all very welcome
Well said Al. I would not be surprised with all the bickering that goes on in the discussions around here that a newcomer would come away with the idea that sessions are not pleasant events in which to participate.
Andy writes: "I must be mis-reading some people's posts...is anyone actually saying "playing a tune slower is harder than playing it faster"? I can't imagine this to be entirely true.
It might be easier to place your fingers etc, but there are other issues. i.e. - maybe how many notes you can take without putting in a breathing space, or using the airbutton on your box, etc etc.
But I think what people mean is that it's harder to play a tune well and convincingly if you slow it down a bit - everything becomes audible - that slurred run down from the top a to the beginning of the next phrase stops sounding in any way musical at less than 200mph. All those passing notes that you can conveniently jump past when playing at the speed of light have to be painstakingly replaced, and played with thought and care ...
That sort of thing.
Of course, none of us here would do anything other than play tunes immaculately, whatever the speed(!)
But I think that the original post start with a false claim - I don't recall much in the way of criticism of young people in sessions on this board. And in real life, my experience has been that everyone loves having younger players on board.
Mark
Joe, can I ask you, from your very first sentence, where on this discussion board have contributers been "critical of young people in sessions"[ to quote your own words ] ? Because like "Ottery", I haven't noticed it.
JoeOConner10, I'm 16 and your complaint seems kind of strange to me. You have to remember that different sessions have different "rules." I've found that as long as you don't violate the natural rhythm of a session, you will probably be respected no matter what your age. Also, remember that the older players deserve your respect as well. In your original post, you seem quite critical of them, but remember that they can be valuable sources of tunes and technique, as well as wisdom about subjects both inside and outside of the music, too. That's just my experience, anyways
Ottery, I meant that if you can't play the passing notes/runs then you can't really play the tune.....but when you can play them surely it's easier playing slower......isn't this a bit of a case of the tunes you can actually play Vs tunes you can join in with in a session distinction.
It is true that generally the snipes on this board are generally targetted at young players as opposed to older ones, there are countless examples of vauge comments that imply a variety of negative ideas about younger trad musicians. I try to ignore what annoys me, or contradict if I'm certain I'm right and can prove it.
I'm talking about this website too, Joe. That's why I specifically asked "where on this discussion board have contributers been critical of young players in sessions" ? So, again, to you and also Andy - where are your examples , please ?
I'm not sure, Andy. If we forget about tunes we 'half know', and just look at ones we know well. I can think of quite a few that happily play themselves at quite a lick, but feel like a bit of a labour to play slower. Maybe it's a mental thing more than a physical thing. I have no problem playing, say, The Dublin reel or The Glass Of Beer, slowly, but it seems to flow more naturally (easiler to play?) at a fairly fast lick.
But I'm not trying to make a big issue out of it....
Tolerance is a virtue.
Whizzers will be shufflers-one day hopefully.
ITM is a broad church, I like to think that, given the opportunity everyone has a contribution to make.(fast or slow, young or old )
Music is a form of communication--consider the audience--if it's all too fast it can sound to the uncommited like the same tune is played all night.
Personally, I agree with the first post. Fast stuff is just fun, and if you play it right (few can, though) you can't go too fast. If some people can't keep up, thay can play backup or something.
That's what many over fast players, young and old, often fail to do.
Ben, your last comment is a bit selfish. I'm not suggesting that there should be a "lowest common denominator" of speed but it can't be that much fun with just yourself and, maybe, one or two others playing at break neck speed while everyone else is excluded. Unless you just enjoy showing off, of course.
Damn, I'm under attack from both sides from both Kenny and Ottery. Concerning Ottery, I guess as I'm a guitar player things are different, I don't have to worry about how long I can keep blowing out at a constant rate...when I start playing the flute again in a few weeks I'll be in a slightly better position to comment!! Anyway, most of the tunes I'd pick out on the guitar aren't for session purposes, I've used them to demonstrate my skills (or lack thereof) on guitar - auditions, solos in a performance etc (mostly I do chord work). So they're deliberately picked because they're complex (or at least complex sounding) tunes, & I've found that for purely technical reasons they get harder as they get faster - the final 2 bars in the B part of the mathematician are the most painful example I can think of!!
Kenny, all I meant was I've read more than a couple of suggestions that young players are "ignoring the tradition", "using the tunes to showcase their talent" etc etc , but I'm not going to go and link in some specific examples - I want to go out and play some tunes tonight, and I don't have time before I go.....
you think it would go this far joe? =)
can i just point out that in hexham this weekend, the oldies were having a nice slow session and doing it very well, enjoying themselves..then us young'uns came in and sped it up, (still sounded amazing though) and had just as much if not more fun.
if you dont like a session you're in, bugger off and start a better one!
lucy
The worst kind of musician you'd ever come across is probably an old guy who tries to make believe he is Martin Hayes but ends up playing 4 times faster in a minute. After the mess, he would complain it was stupid young musicians that speeded up.
Och Larsheen, your Terry Crehan story must be the saddest tale I've read here for a long while!
Reminds me that I was invited by Kathleen King to play a few tunes with herself & Joe Ryan a couple of years ago & what a superb player Joe is & a pure gentleman he is too, with a great sense of humour.
Now Joe may well be of the same genaration as Terry so it is painful to think of any young, ill mannered, eejits showing anyone like that absolutely no respect at all.
I also saw an old, highly respected fiddler sitting in a northern bar, in Pomeroy actually, about 13/14 years ago & he simply wouldn't take his fiddle out of its case to play with the young bloods who were thundering along beside him. Perhaps he had received similar treatment in the past?
Thankfully, later in the night, during a lull, he was persuaded by some locals to get her out & he did strike up a few tunes & he was certainly a fine, fine player!
Anyone care to hazard a guess as to who that might have been?
See 5 posts up from this - how many of you approve of what "looci" and her friends did in that situation ? Seems to me she should have taken her own advice.
Joe, Andy - still waiting.
this music is about rhythym and feel, with a dash of melody on top. Speed for the sake of it is not interesting or musical or pleasurable - it is just technique. Having listened to some fantasticly talented musicians play at the speed of light and sound sooo dull at Goggerty's in Dublin and then compared the joy of that with a session in Goitin run by an old crew but who played great, I know which I prefer. It is not about old or young but talent and taste - there are plenty of 'old' players who could roast anyone out of the bar with playing speed but don't because they wouldn't want to. Classic example on banjo for example would be the late great Mick O'Connor who can play it fast without it ever sounding too fast, without ever losing the feeling/ musicality of a tune. There are also plenty of young players who play with tremendous feeling viz Enda Scahill.
I'm hoping that Locci is having a joke here but after reading some of the other comments on this thread I'm not sure.
Actually, I've met a few students from the Newcastle course and similar projects over the years and they are mostly really nice young people. However, I often get the feeling that it's a case of "Us and them" in many festival and session situations. For some reason, they don't always mix very well with the older(in this case, read regular) players. I don't think the reason is because they want to reject us or play faster etc but I think many of them have a different repertoire. Much, though not all, is learned on the courses and they are very used to playing in their own company or with other young players. Some may even feel that they don't get much of a welcome from the older players and, in some cases, this might be true. However, in many cases, I think both groups just misunderstand each other.
Kenny - I'm not going to search through all the posts on this website just to give you specific examples. If you search through i'm sure you'll spot them yourself but i have better things to do. One example that i did just see on the 'novelty tunes' discussion was on the second post down where someone said 'which novelty tunes should we all be learning, so we can p1ss off these flashy youngsters'. This might have been a joke but still...... And lay off lucy - she rocks!!! Plus, they'd been in that session for about 3 hours and all we did was play a few tunes while they decided what to play next
Well, why didn't she just say that?
I realised she was probably joking but it might not have come over that way for everyone.
There's been times before on this board where I've commented on *some* younger players but, in general, I've found most of them very respectful to older musicians and very nice people. There's fault to be found with people of all age groups and nobody is ever too young or too old to listen to criticicism or take advice.
Related to the Terry Crehan story, I read somewhere that Arcady decided to record their second album (Many Happy Returns) with all very common tunes (Bucks of Oranmore, Toss the Feathers, etc.) because Johnny McDonagh was at a session where some youngsters were playing some Bulgarian tunes but didn't know Sally Gardens--which, incidentally, is the first tune on that album.
"the oldies were having a nice slow session and doing it very well, enjoying themselves..then us young'uns came in and sped it up, (still sounded amazing though) and had just as much if not more fun. if you dont like a session you're in, bugger off and start a better one!"
What do they teach you at Folkworks? Looks like it's either "how to wind people up for the craic" or "how to be arrogant, egotistical and completely up yourself".
Like JohnJ, I dearly hope it's the first of the two. If not, I'd love to see you go to Ireland and try it on there. You'd be frozen out of the sessions for sure, by young and old alike.
You're all crazy!!! Folkworks are better teachers and players than you lot will ever be and they know twice as much about running a session than any of you. I'd like to see any of you try to organise a summer school, a young people's folk festival AND a degree course as well as concerts throughout the year. I disgust you?? You all disgust me with your judgemental comments and your little snipes at each other. The fact of the matter is I DID have better things to do today - I had to go and visit my grandad who has just come out of hospital now just stop digging at me and other people and accept the point as valid, whether you disagree or not.
yes dow, you heard me. point is they liked listening to us. im not being arrogant, there some top quality players there who absolutely amazed me. i've been to ireland twice and we were more than warmly welcomed into every session we went to.
they teach us how fantastic this music is and, yeah, they make us feel good about ourselves which is what adults should do to young people- encourage us! Not shout and look down on us, but appreciate us.
well said jazzymaz! where would folk music be without folkworks? not where it is now...its bigger than it's ever been thanks to them. nobody can criticise folkworks when gods like david oliver and alistair anderson are involved!
Actually i regret even starting the damn post - plus i realised the minute i did it that i should have named it something like 'young people in sessions' :( But you must have seen the comments i mean.
Anyway, me and lucy just want to say that we're really sorry for any offence caused - we're actually very nice people and we're sure you are too! The best thing about folk music is that it brings people together - hope to see you in a session at some point to prove that we're not horrible little young people and to play a nice variety of tunes!! Oh by the way, seriously folks, folkworks are really really good and they really aren't in the least conceited.
"Plus, they'd been in that session for about 3 hours and all we did was play a few tunes while they decided what to play next" - fraid in my book, that is classed as NOODLING on a MAJOR scale!
Come on guys, surely you can see that with you dudes plundering through a bunch of tunes, no matter how well, for jayzus sake, how the feck could they possibly be expected to think clearly of what to play next!
- I'm sure the only tune that sprang to mind for them was - "Show me the way to go Home"!
It sounds like a major hi-jack to me, & believe me I know a hi-jack when I see or hear one!
Play fast, play slow, play moderate, whatever, but if it doesn't make the foot tap it's a load of sh*te. Great players make any tempo sound easy, and have great lift and so you don't realise how bloody fast some of these old farts are playing. But a whole night of flat out playing? Boreing as Batsh#t!!
Haha JoeOConnor10 I knew we could make you slip up with your sock puppets eventually. I wish I has as many "friends" as you. Just be careful which friend's name you post under when you try and bait people otherwise it's not quite so effective.
"I just tripped over my zimmer....." Boasting again, what?!!? ?
A generation war must be better than a religious war. Let's use our energy up here.
Old age and cunning beats youth and vigour every time.
Yes they probably do, but when someone’s first post ever is to
agree with you and they same insulting expressions as you
and one even posts for you (!!!) then, call me suspicious but…
ok i said i wouldnt argue in this discussion any more, but each of those people listed are actually different. Joe is my friend. welovejosephchilds is our friend and jazzymaz is his sister. now why dont you all stop arguing and trying to p*ss people off? =)
Firstly, sorry bout leaping into this thread with both feet then running away again, I've been very busy with exams, sessions etc, hope I didn't appear rude. Largely, most young musicians I've met are greatly respectful of older musicians irrespective of how good they are, the tradition is currently undergoing a comeback, and that's largely thanks to the generation of players before me. Last night I was at a session where I was the youngest player there, then about 22ish, 32ish and the remainer were 45+. The tunes were good, well known, played well and at a moderate pace - and I had a damn good time. Tonight I'll go to a session where the tunes are more obscure/modern, played very very fast - but the tunes will still be played well and I'll be equally as happy. Hence my only complaint - why is it automatically assumed that if a tune is played very fast by young people it's done without ornamentation and scrappily? This might be more reflective of the types of young people that most people encounter, but some (and I've heard Joe play and he'd fit into this group) are skilled musicians who can play fast AND accurately. So I hope a few misinterpreted comments haven't soured the feelings towards younger musicians/folkworks etc, but if they have, email me the next time you're in newcastle and drag you out to a session and buy you a pint!! This should also convince some of the sceptics that I do actually exist if they meet me!
I AM JAZZYMAZ!!!
JOEOCONNOR10 IS MY BROTHER...HE FORGOT TO LOG ME OFF BEFORE POSTING, IS THAT OK?
Oh golly gosh its bloomin hard not to flipping swear at you 'old and wise people'. I've met nicer people at a sadist convention!
This post was started to give the young people of the session a voice because all I ever seem to read on this website is you lot slagging off younger players, and now you're saying that it was set up as criticism to you?
Read back a few posts and you'll see that maybe we're sick of you foolish fools slagging us off. Well congratulations, you now appear to have said the worst of it to our faces, aren't you a lovely lot.
Well, the tone of the very post determined how the discussion would progress. Conflict was going to be inevitable due to the attitude displayed in the comments there "boring doddery pace" etc.
I'm all for encouraging young people and allowing them a voice but some of the contributors here haven't done themselves any favours. Thankfully, most of the younger players I've met in real life don't adopt such a disrespectful stance.
Flimsy evidence ? It was based on no evidence at all, but has sadly become self-fulfilling. Time to kill this thread off, and it would be no bad thing if Jeremy were to delete it altogether.
Certainly my last word on it.
until this thread appeared i have to say that i was n't especially aware of younger players being slagged off on this site but just in case it's true,why don't you give us all a big sloppy kiss for international socialism,Joe?
"I've a message for all you young people out there. You're doing yourselves no favours. Stop writing banal crap on this message board and start contributing constructively... Just anything but this meaningless rubbish."
What the hell's the matter with you Dow? Don't you realise that all you've done since putting down this (fairly useless) comment is slag off Joe personnally? And not help in the discussion at all. And why do you address this comment to younger people only? There seem to be far more pointless comments from older people on this discussion, most of which come from yourself.
"Because this thread appears to be intolerance of the older
wiser players".
Why don't you re-read joe's first comment? You've turned it into something it's not. He wasn't complaining about old people, he was complaining about old people complaining about young people. And all of the evidence that you people wanted of old people slagging young people is right here - you've turned a fairly innocent comment into another chance to bully young people. Grow up!
LOL. Well, according to the accusers, I'm well and truly old, so I don't qualify to be slagged by you Buttonman. I didn't think I was old. In fact, I thought I was quite young, and that I was disagreeing with them not because of my age but because I think what they're saying is pure crap*. If they took a step back they'd probably realise that the people who have responded to this thread and voiced disagreement are of all ages. Anyway I feel as though I've aged about 20 years following this stupid thread.
* Note that this is not a personal attack, but a judgement on what has been said, or mebbes "shat out" would be more appropriate in this case.
This thread is not really about young v old, it is about playing fast v playing slow, based on an assumption that older people cannot play fast. The shallowness of only enjoying fast music is self-evident.
Ha!
I have just caught this thread and I think that ALL these "youngsters" are various incarnations of Dow's febrile imagination.
He is obviously bored and just can't get down to writing his thesis. Stop the displacement activity now and get on with your work
I think Dow has an aging portrait of himself that he keeps in his closet. hahahaha
About the ‘fast vs. slow’ debate: I play fast for set dancers, and slower for listening, and sometimes very slow just for effect. I also have no problem playing at tempos other people prefer as long as the respect is mutual. I am admittedly an old codger, but I enjoy playing with musicians of all ages.
One of the music's greatest qualities is the way the music brings generations together. Anyone who fails to recognize and appreciate this aspect is possibly missing the essence of what has allowed this music to thrive for so many generations. I believe this cross-generational aspect of traditional music is the epitome of its life force.
"I think Dow has an aging portrait of himself that he keeps in his closet." - Surely not Button! Don't you mean, he is wearing the ageing portrait & the youthful image is hidden in his loft at home!
After all, a young, smiling, friendly face surely wouldn't do his image any good here - now would it?
Old people
Old people
Why the hell are other members of the session always so critical of the young people in sessions?! I never hear a good word! Remember, we're the future PLUS some tunes are supposed to fast and not all played at a boring old doddery pace where the triplets sound laboured and one time through the tune feels like it has already gone on too long. I know I'll get bombarded with angry people now but it has to be said!!!
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
Obviously I don't mean the angry people will be thrown at me
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
i agree, as a fellow young folkie who like sessions to be wild and crazy, i think that old people who only like tunes such as 'davy davy nick nack' and 'winster gallop' (not saying they are bad tunes) should stop being so old and slow! also slow tunes dont go well on the banjo.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by WeLoveJosephChilds
Re: Old people
haha 35 and still sounding like a legend! well you could be one of those old people who are mint in sessions, not yet obviously, but in years to come you can be a cool old person who sits and drinks beer with the crazy students and plays banging tunes with a pipe in your mouth.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by WeLoveJosephChilds
Re: Old people
Urgh, don't mention shoe the donkey, some older people (adulty people) at one of the folkworks summer schools appeared to be taking great pleasure in playing that damn tune at 3 in the morning when i was trying to sleep directly above them (this was early on in the week before i stopped sleeping). The worst bit was, they were in a conservetory, I was on the 4th floor, the windows could be fully opened and none of the furniture in the room was screwed down. In the end I decided not to drop the bedside table, but it was very close!!
If there'd have been an angry person to hand though, I'd have lobbed them out without a second thought!! 
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Andy V
Re: Old people
The question is: is your fast session fast and tight, or fast and scrappy? If it is fast and scrappy then it is probably not very musical, and of course the oldsters have heard thousands of fast scrappy sessions and know how common and unsatisfactory they are. Whilst the players can imagine they are playing like Frankie Gavin, and might well be, all you hear on the outside is the familiar train crash. The key to keeping the oldsters happy is to play a hornpipe every half hour, and, if you have difficulty playing slow triplets then hornpipes are good for your technique.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Nick Spencer
Re: Old people
Joe, 16 eh?
gorw up
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Old people
oooooh you are sneaky - I didn't say I had difficulty playing slow triplets. If you scroll up I think you'll find I said they sound laboured.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
Have you noticed it's always the people that are uncomfortable with their level of maturity that tell you to grow up?
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
Anyway, it is true about the way young people are treated on here - sorry if i've been wound up by it or caused offense but it just bugs me the way young people are always sniped at!
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
part of growing up is not getting wound up
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Old people
dont be an arse
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by WeLoveJosephChilds
Re: Old people
Anyway, I know lots of brilliant old people who love all kinds of tunes. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I don't want people ganging up on me! All I basically mean is - lay off the young people who play fast tunes nicely!
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
michael,
I'm going to see if I can find a truely awful bodhran player and send him into bell's the next time you're in there. Then we'll see if you've truely grown up..........hopefully I'll prove a point and rid the world of a bad bodhranista at the same time!!
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Andy V
Re: Old people
i was talking to llig leachim with the comment i made earlier...stop being so closed minded, young people always get the stick for "taking over the session" and "playing too fast." but if u ask me then young people should be allowed to play in the way they like to play, and if there are old people who like slow tunes and are complaining about the young people, then they shouldnt be in that kind of session in the first place.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by WeLoveJosephChilds
Re: Old people
What about the old people who are still very much young at heart? There are many of them around.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Old people
The problem arises from speed for the sake of it. When you are young, (and I'm speaking not just from years and years of observation, but I was also young once) there is an aspirational aspect to being able to play fast. It's an effort, a hurdle. It is something to prove. And like every part of this music, it will only begin to sound any good when it is no longer an effort.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Old people
Yeah that's very true and all i'm saying is not to stereotype young people.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
There's plenty of sessions to go around and sessions should have all kinds of tunes in anyway!!!!!
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
i dont think its true to say it will only begin sound any good when its no longer an effort. i put a lot of effort in when playing folk music, simply to make it sound good, if i didnt put as much effort in then it wouldnt half sound as good.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by WeLoveJosephChilds
Re: Old people
I wish this thread was longer.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Eliot
Re: Old people
Oh p*ss! I just wrote a whole bunch of sh*te then my computer didn't post it.
Anywho, to summarize what I wrote. There are a bunch of people in this world who need to get the stick out of their arse, and they come in all ages. Old people need to be more inclusive, and us young guys need to slow down. It is fecking dance music, the point is to have fun. So now lets all go and have a tune at our own tempos and when you go to a session, play with the leader of the tune.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: Old people
So Joe... say you go to a session to play some tunes, but the tunes are being played at a moderate pace instead of the way you prefer to play them. What do you do?
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Old people
I'd like to stir things up a bit here....
Old people complain so much about young people playing fast because they can't cope with the pace! <--Joke
Playing fast does not = spoiling the music / not playing tight etc etc. Playing faster does (in general) give however, give more energy to the music and makes it flow smoother. A session is all about having fun, and playing fast is exciting, hence fun. But playing too fast if you can't bash out the tune well enough is a bit pointless.
I do have to say though, playing at a moderate pace but making it groovy is a lot of fun too. Have to say that old folks, generally speaking, are less adept at making the music tasty. No offense intended. This is a generalisation, and the possible reason for this is that a large % of older players started later in life than the younger players of today.
Have to say though, I have had loads of stick from older players over the years, even since I was a kid, about 'playing too fast' or 'not playing traditionally' - some of which has been pretty damn offensive. But I think that in some cases, it's pure jealousy under the guise of 'you're playing too fast'.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Choonz
Re: Old people
I *love* generalizations. They ooze wisdom.
A kind suggestion:
Please print out this thread. Copy it. Laminate both the original and the copy. Tack one to your fridge. Keep the other in your instrument case.
In 20 years read again and then shove both copies where you have finally figured out they belong.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by _Steph_
Re: Old people
LOL! Cheeky. How old are you Steph?
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Choonz
Re: Old people
You can't take an entire genre, or age, of people, and say that they're all this or that. What it all boils down to, Joe, is not old people, because I know of many young or youngish arseholes as well. It boils down to intolerance, and people taking whoever thinks differently from them and treating them with utter contempt. I've taken a fair amount of negativity from old and young alike, and given some back as well, so I know the rudimentary details.
Oh, and a word of advice to would-be lecturers: I know two people, one of whom offers constant criticism/advice/complaints/opinions, and one who rarely gets angry. I have been admonished many a time by the former, and only once by the latter-but the one that I got from the latter left a bigger impression than the countless times from the former.
No one will take anyone's advice to heart if they give it unasked at all times. But if the you rarely comment on someone's musicianship, they'll know if you tell them off that you mean it, and that it's important.
Sorry. Just my two cents.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Zazzaliss
Re: Old people
I'm at that awkward age in life where I'm both too old and too young to be wearing diapers.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by _Steph_
Re: Old people
Zazzaliss, by freely handing out advice as you've done above, have you not automatically categorised yourself as the former of the two "would-be lecturers"? Maybe you should have saved your opinion for a more pertinent moment?
Apologies, I'm taking the p*ss.
P.S. Sarcasm/irony/humour really don't come across well on messageboards.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Choonz
Re: Old people
Not really... I'm talking about advice/criticism at sessions, which seems to be the topic here.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Zazzaliss
Re: Old people
Sorry...Emphasis on non-seriousness of my comment. I give up.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Choonz
Re: Old people
Ah, well, generalizations make the world go round . . . generally speaking anyways.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by musicfan
Re: Old people
I got another thing to say.
If ther person who is critisizing you is that great a player, why aren't they famous in the ITM world? Some of the best players I have ever met were also some of the nicest people I have ever met. Of course, there is a certain Piper who is a real asshole over the internet, but is apparently nice in person.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: Old people
SOme people have all the talent, skill, and experience in the world but don;t desire the fame and pain-in-the-ass factor that comes with it. Irish music is cool because these folks are approachable humans. Be thankful for it. One of the more stand-offish local players ( very good, helpful in some respects) has a lot more of a reputation than some very good players who come across as more open or friendly.
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
-- Hunter S. Thompson
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Old people
Could you clear up a few questions I have about your post?
First, do you mean other people who play in session? Or do you really mean "old" people? And if you you mean"old" people, what age are you talking about?
Or, second, do you mean people who have been playing in the session for a while. And especially, since before you started to play in the session?
And third, could you give some speicific example? What is it that they say that you think is critical?
Just trying to be clear about what you mean before I jump to any conclusions.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by John Culhane
Re: Old people
I remember the T-Shirt " If its 2 loud your 2 old ! " (KISS)
I would hope in ITM some of the younger folk would respect the fountain of tradition...and the pace.
Not to bust your chops. Im sure you have wiked quick nights.
Fast and Good = Wow
Fast and Scappy= No Good..
Keep it tight..and that means everyone...No Slakers
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by lamh trom
Re: Old people
Some of my best friends are snotty young punks.
Their music is crap, of course, but they mean well.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Old people
get comfortable...
Part of me wants to ignore this type of discussion because it makes me feel as if I'm on the bus again, stuck in traffic. Yet I've been struck by the same attitudes as the original poster reckognized, and I was affected, so I'll add my 'two cents' worth.'
I'm young. I'm reserved and polite at jams and sessions, and I don't *think* my music is crap. Depends on what you classify as 'crap,' I suppose, but I have been complemented by older musicians several times. I don't get drunk when I play, and I see this really crawls up peoples' sleeves sometimes, excessive drinking.. In fact, I don't really drink when I play music at all, because it causes a lot of mistakes or just causes me to want to drink more, or both. Did I come to knock 'em back or play some music? They're two different things to me. If I'm banging around in a living room or garage that's one thing.. When playing private parties where I'm a little more relaxed and there's less tension, generally speaking, then I'll take a few drinks. And on those nights when I walk out the door with warm cheeks and some money in my pocket, I really feel as if things paid off well.. But if someone is paying me to perform a scheduled gig or I am going out to learn new music and new ways of playing old music from other people then I'll refrain.
I've enjoyed mild success in several bands with older people. So they're not all jerks (HA! I can't believe I'm actually talking about this.). But some are, and I've found that that crowd is also 99% more likely than the younger crowd to brush off or ignore me, too.
I dropped out of the local bluegrass scene partly because the older crowd anchoring it was very unwelcoming and quite unfriendly, it seemed, to anyone new, or, young. Of course, this is a broad general statement and I did meet some wonderful people playing in those circles. But the pillars and anchors of the community seemed wary of my very presence, unwilling to talk to me, very reserved, and generally 'standoffish.' You can only take being completely ignored so many times before you pull up your tent and go somewhere else. I don't play in those circles any more, and I don't mind a bit. I get my kicks elsewhere.
I think it all winds down to competition. There is a very limited audience in my area for this school of music, and very few gigs to be had which will pay any kind of good money, outside of playing private parties. Additionally, many of the musicians here have known each other for a long time, and any 'young blood' is likely suspicious upon first meeting for these reasons. My old banjo player once told me that he doesn't like having younger players in his band because they usually come and go too quickly to make any real difference in the group, and he prefers not to chase them around all the time. This is partly true, but I think that younger people have a different outlook on life, and thus a different outlook on music and bands, etc. I think a lot of younger people act like younger people (drinking, talking too much, being stupid, inconsiderate, etc) also, and this just can't be helped, except by letting the person know that he's acting like a jerk and to please stop whichever behavior is affecting the group.
If you don't see yourself acting like this, then to hell with it, I say, and just keep trying or find something else to do with your time. So the issue is a combination of competition, behavior, and outlook. See, I don't mind if a guitar player leaves. I have a long list of guitarists to sort through. And if someone else can play better than I can then it means we can get better gigs. Someone else leaves? Fine. It's no pain to me, and, if anything, means that when a gig is to be played, there's one less person with whome to split the pot.
Okay. I'm going to bed
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by gravelwalks
Re: Old people
Dammit I just friggin' wrote an entire thing. Ok.
"Remember, we're the future PLUS some tunes are supposed to fast..."
I really don't think that certain tunes are supposed to be played at a set tempo.
"..and not all played at a boring old doddery pace where the triplets sound laboured and one time through the tune feels like it has already gone on too long.."
Question, are you talking about when YOU play the tune or when "old people" play them? If it's the former, then I think you should learn to play the tune with some sort of swing instead of making it sound like you're intentionally slowing it down.
---
I agree with lamh trom regarding the pace and respect for the tradition.
I personally hate playing at a quick pace. It's nice to listen to but playing it for me is a bit of a turn off. You lose the tune that way. It's much more satisfying to know that you're doing the tune a bit of justice by actually playing it out.
On a semi-other note, I think more people should read Breandan Breathnach's Folk Music and Dances of Ireland and Allen Feldman/Eamonn O'Doherty's The Northern Fiddler. They're really informative reads and it gives you a lot of background information regarding the tradition.
Cheers,
Armand
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by armandale
Re: Old people
i prefer the slow music. fast is great and fun, but most people wreck it. some people play fast and it sounds bad, and other people can play twice as fast and it sounds good.
the best musicians can play slow and make your heart melt. poor musicians play fast and hope you dont notice the lack of musicality. the best musicians can play fast just as well as they can play slow. poor musicians can only play fast well.
i am of the latter camp... the poor musicians who can play quickly.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by daiv
Re: Old people
Aye Armand, both good reads, but I don't think you would want to swallow everything that Breathnach said. For example, he firmly believed that if you knew the author of a tune then it couldn't be classed as Traditional. He maintained that for a tune to truly qualify as 'Traditional' it had to be played & passed on aurally until the composer was forgotten!
I can see where he was coming from & to an extent I go along with it, but on the other hand I think of poor old Ed Reevey & Charlie Lennon & all the great tunes they've given us. Both men are so steeped in the tradition that there tunes surely can't be classed as anything else but traditional.
Sorry Joe, I know this has nothing to do with your thread but then I'm just an old, fat git who regularly plays with young folk too & also very young folk & I have to say I enjoy trad music at all speeds - as long as it is being played well & 'together'! Sloppy music at any speed is just - SLOP!
As I'm not an ageist though, I have no desire to get involved in this petty squable!
Oooops! Just did .................
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Old people
Before you go to bed, gravelwalks, let me assure you that my one-liner was in no way meant to be taken seriously.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Old people
I've a message for all you young people out there. You're doing yourselves no favours. Stop writing banal crap on this message board and start contributing constructively. If you need to prove something, prove that at least you can do that. If you can actually play the music, how about you post some of your unique settings of tunes in the tunes section, or ask some questions about technique, or if you think you're really good, give some hints of your own about technique. Something like that. Just anything but this meaningless rubbish.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
I have to disagree with you there Dow! - he said bravely...........
]
I notice that at least one 'newbie' youngster has contributed to this thread & although the content here isn't exactly earth-shattering, I think any thread that encourages younger, newer members to participate on the board has to be welcomed & encouraged & I think Joe himself hasn't made a bad contribution in other departments here already!
If we don't accept all manner of discussions here, the old hands here are in danger of turning into those dreaded old farts & old dears that are on committees up & down the country, who hang onto their positions cause they reckon the youngsters don't know their arse from their elbow & have no experience.
I think we should welcome them in here, let them gain some experience & give them a chance to discuss whatever turns them on.
So OK, it might not be to your taste or mine, but at least it gets them used to the format here & I'm sure, in time, they'll graviate towards more serious & meatier topics, no doubt with some more gentle encouragement from your good self, along the way.
[ OK youngsters, have I patronised you enough yet?
Pssst .... Ya just gotta keep in with them Dow, cause you never know when you might meet one face to face, & let's face it, a decrepit auld man is no match for any of those young dudes!
Er..em... I was of course referring to myself as decrepit, by the way ........
P.S. In truth, I really quite enjoy the silly threads here, as you may have noticed!
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Old people
"Rubbish" is a very appropriate word. But young people, including me, should be allowed to be stupid.
The thing is, it really doesn't matter how fast or slow you play this sort of music as long as you don't go off rhythm. When your playing is very steady, you can decide yourself how fast or slow you play.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by slainte
Re: Old people
Besides, dealing with rubbish helps old people's blood circulation.
Dow's message to "all of you young people out there"
overlooks the fact that there are plenty of "young people out there" already making useful contributions here in all sections, tunes section included.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by ʎɹoʇısuɐɹʇ
Re: Old people
Well, I'm 50, and if anybody tries shoeing and donkeys and then galloping them to winster in my company I am likely to act very childishly and say something cutting. So much for growing up...
I do think happycamper has a very valid and interesting point about some of the older players who started later in life being a pain and throwing their weight around and complaining that more able players are not including them.
As for the older ones who have been playing most of their lives - a few are very rude and many are annoying drunks in my experience. So the young folk don't have a corner on that market.
I've just had some other thoughts on this, but I think they deserve a different thread. See ya there.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by kris
Re: Old people
That's the best point so far Slainte. Some one earlier posted, "playing faster does give more energy to the music and makes it flow smoother". This is of course rubbish because as we know, it's about phrasing.
You often hear people overcoming certain hurdles of ability, which roughly divide as follows:
a. beginner
b. aspiring to play fast and making a balls up of it
c. being able to keep reasonably steady phrasing at spead, but completely unable to hold it steady when even just a little bit slower, (hence the daft notion mentioned above about faster being smoother.)
d. realising the error of c. and learning to contol it at a slower pace.
e. effortlessly transfering this essential skill to the faster pace.
f. effortlessly rejoicing in the fact that you will always be a.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Old people
Btw some of the idiot posts don't represent all young people. I would never complain about such a stupid thing.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by ecidralla
Re: Old people
Anyone for an 'O'Carolan'?
Hang on a minute while I put my teeth in...
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Old people
pip pip, away with all the oxygen stealing coffin dodgers they should be stuck at home on their comodes wearing slippers and smoking their ciggy's through their tracheoctomy holes.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: Old people
So when someone says it’s harder to stay in time when it’s
played slowly really means that it’s harder for them to notice it
being all over the place when played fast.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by BegF
Re: Old people
Irish music is not a hotted up dragster and no one is likely to get killed on the roads, revin' it up a bit. Fast cars are much more dangerous!
Youthful creativity shouldn't be denied. How are youngsters ever to to find their own limits if they are stifled from the exploration? Its up to the elder to think young and not expect the youngster to think old. Why should they, they're invincible!!!
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Old people
Good old Kris - I don't think old people who could play well, slow down much, more that many old people could never play fast, even in their youth.
Approaching my fourth decade of sessions, I am still accused of playing too fast.
Nevertheless, I can hear the youngsters skipping notes when playing too fast. I take great delight in pinching their flash reels and playing them quarter speed as hornpipes, just to watch them fluff their fingering that they never learned properly in the first place.
Practise slowly, you young reel-pushers.
I also think repertoire is part and parcel of it. The oldsters who learned later in life suffer from "WinsterNickNack-itis". Whereas the oldsters who can play well, probably have forgotten more tunes than the youngsters know.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: In Betweenie People
Why does it always have to be OLD v YOUNG, FAST v SLOW, GOOD v BAD, TRAD(OLD) tunes v NEW tunes and so on? Sorry for shouting.
In the real world, it is often a mixture of all of these and why not? Older people can often play tunes really fast too when it suits them and good younger players can enjoy playing slower tunes...which are actually harder.
We should all listen to and appreciate each other's contributions. And help one and other along the way.
Less competition and more co-operation.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by John J.
Re: Old people
It's easier to fake a tune at high speed - doesn't matter how old you are (or aren't).
Anyway, some of us grew up, but I suspect most people who play music for fun didn't, they just got older.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Old people
?
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Old people
I must be mis-reading some people's posts...is anyone actually saying "playing a tune slower is harder than playing it faster"? I can't imagine this to be entirely true (although more effort has to be put into phrasing if the tune is slowed), because surely the slower the fingers move the easier it is to have them in the right place from a purely physical point of view? Although at a higher speed it's easier to miss the little mistakes so are people just saying that there are a lot of musicians who can "gabble" a tune at speed without being able to play it properly (ie at any tempo within reason)?
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Andy V
Re: Old people
ok, so us kids know how to have fun in a session, and in all honesty..its so much more fun to wear yourself out with some mega-speed tunes.. but old people can't assume that we don't like slow tunes..some tunes (eg tanteeka) only sound good at a slow leisurely pace..so we'd play them to wind down a bit. it is wrong to play a slowish tune fast..but thats why we dont tend to play them as much..nobody wants to ruin a good tune! old people can go and have their own session if they want to play only slow hornpipes because their fingers no longer move fast..
PS joe o'connor's ace
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by looci
Re: Old people
I am completely behind joe on this one, in fact I have just read a comment posted on a different discussion in which somebody said 'let's p*ss off these flashy youngsters'. That is exactly what we have had enough of.
When I browse through these discussions I am often offended and irritated by older people bitching about fast sessions and how young people play too fast.
Firstly, this isn't classical music; there aren't any guidelines written on the top of a tune telling you the speed it should be played at, we should play tunes at whatever speed feels right.
Furthermore, isn't the point of folk music and sessions to have a good time whilst sharing and appreciating other people's music? We want to enjoy ourselves and you can't deny that playing brilliant tunes really fast is fun.
Also, young people are the future! Harsh comments could put us all off playing traditional music and I'm sure older people want this music to carry on in the future, so just lay off us a bit.
And, don't forget, you're supposed to be setting an example. I hope I'm not complaining about young people in a few years time, because I will remember what it was like to enjoy fast and furious sessions as well as beautiful slower tunes.
Finally, Joe O'Connor is the master of slow tunes. Amen.
Please don't bully me
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by jazzymaz
Re: Old people
I don't think that some members of the session are especially crtical of young people. They are also critical of old people. They are also critical of playing too fast. They are also critical of playing too slow. Heck, they would be critical of donkeys if donkeys could play music. If you have something to say, I bet you can find someone to criticize it.
Sometimes it is fun to play fast, sometimes it is fun to play slow. Sometimes the energy of youth invigorates a session. Sometimes the wisdom of age and style that comes from years of experience invigorates a session.
Music is a blessing! Enjoy it!
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Old people
Young and old mix very well in our regular sessions here with a mutual respect flowing in both directions. I don't see that there is any real barrier between us.
The age range in our sessions goes from under 10's to those well into their 70's and I think it's great.
Even though many of my playing mates are into their 40's and 50's now, I like to think that we are all young at heart.
I certainly LOVE to see the younger musicians coming out and they are all made as welcome as possible. Once in a while someone will go a bit OTT and then there is a bit of quiet friendly advice/constructive criticism - usually taken in the spirit in which it is given.
So whether it's here at thesess on at one of our sessions - ye are all very welcome
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by breandan
Re: Old people
Well said Al. I would not be surprised with all the bickering that goes on in the discussions around here that a newcomer would come away with the idea that sessions are not pleasant events in which to participate.
Thankfully the real world is quite different.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Old people
Andy writes: "I must be mis-reading some people's posts...is anyone actually saying "playing a tune slower is harder than playing it faster"? I can't imagine this to be entirely true.
It might be easier to place your fingers etc, but there are other issues. i.e. - maybe how many notes you can take without putting in a breathing space, or using the airbutton on your box, etc etc.
But I think what people mean is that it's harder to play a tune well and convincingly if you slow it down a bit - everything becomes audible - that slurred run down from the top a to the beginning of the next phrase stops sounding in any way musical at less than 200mph. All those passing notes that you can conveniently jump past when playing at the speed of light have to be painstakingly replaced, and played with thought and care ...
That sort of thing.
Of course, none of us here would do anything other than play tunes immaculately, whatever the speed(!)
But I think that the original post start with a false claim - I don't recall much in the way of criticism of young people in sessions on this board. And in real life, my experience has been that everyone loves having younger players on board.
Mark
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Old people
I do think that younger people (the under-fifties) should be welcomed at sessions
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by RichardB
Re: Old people
Joe, can I ask you, from your very first sentence, where on this discussion board have contributers been "critical of young people in sessions"[ to quote your own words ] ? Because like "Ottery", I haven't noticed it.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Kenny
Re: Old people
Young people are all bollixes.
There ya go Kenny!
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Old people
Seriously though; the reason why young people play so fast is, to paraphrase Finbar Furey, because they can.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Old people
JoeOConner10, I'm 16 and your complaint seems kind of strange to me. You have to remember that different sessions have different "rules." I've found that as long as you don't violate the natural rhythm of a session, you will probably be respected no matter what your age. Also, remember that the older players deserve your respect as well. In your original post, you seem quite critical of them, but remember that they can be valuable sources of tunes and technique, as well as wisdom about subjects both inside and outside of the music, too. That's just my experience, anyways
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Fiddlekit
Re: Old people
I just want to clear something up - I was talking about this website, not actual sessions
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
Ottery, I meant that if you can't play the passing notes/runs then you can't really play the tune.....but when you can play them surely it's easier playing slower......isn't this a bit of a case of the tunes you can actually play Vs tunes you can join in with in a session distinction.
It is true that generally the snipes on this board are generally targetted at young players as opposed to older ones, there are countless examples of vauge comments that imply a variety of negative ideas about younger trad musicians. I try to ignore what annoys me, or contradict if I'm certain I'm right and can prove it.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Andy V
Re: Old people
Better to get your adrenaline high by playing a tune a 100mph. No one ever died from a speeding reel.
Seriously, it's wicked fun to have a few high speed tunes in a night.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Old people
I'm talking about this website too, Joe. That's why I specifically asked "where on this discussion board have contributers been critical of young players in sessions" ? So, again, to you and also Andy - where are your examples , please ?
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Kenny
Re: Old people
I'm not sure, Andy. If we forget about tunes we 'half know', and just look at ones we know well. I can think of quite a few that happily play themselves at quite a lick, but feel like a bit of a labour to play slower. Maybe it's a mental thing more than a physical thing. I have no problem playing, say, The Dublin reel or The Glass Of Beer, slowly, but it seems to flow more naturally (easiler to play?) at a fairly fast lick.
But I'm not trying to make a big issue out of it....
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Old people
Tolerance is a virtue.
Whizzers will be shufflers-one day hopefully.
ITM is a broad church, I like to think that, given the opportunity everyone has a contribution to make.(fast or slow, young or old )
Music is a form of communication--consider the audience--if it's all too fast it can sound to the uncommited like the same tune is played all night.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by duffgen
Re: Old people
Personally, I agree with the first post. Fast stuff is just fun, and if you play it right (few can, though) you can't go too fast. If some people can't keep up, thay can play backup or something.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Ben314
Re: Old people
"If you play it right"
That's what many over fast players, young and old, often fail to do.
Ben, your last comment is a bit selfish. I'm not suggesting that there should be a "lowest common denominator" of speed but it can't be that much fun with just yourself and, maybe, one or two others playing at break neck speed while everyone else is excluded. Unless you just enjoy showing off, of course.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by John J.
Re: Old people
Old people who hate young people who hate old people who hate young people who hate.. ach whatever - all need a good spanking in my opinion.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Cammy
Re: Old people
Fiddlekit, you are spot on. Couldn't have put it better myself. It's not about age. You're gonna go far.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
Damn, I'm under attack from both sides from both Kenny and Ottery. Concerning Ottery, I guess as I'm a guitar player things are different, I don't have to worry about how long I can keep blowing out at a constant rate...when I start playing the flute again in a few weeks I'll be in a slightly better position to comment!! Anyway, most of the tunes I'd pick out on the guitar aren't for session purposes, I've used them to demonstrate my skills (or lack thereof) on guitar - auditions, solos in a performance etc (mostly I do chord work). So they're deliberately picked because they're complex (or at least complex sounding) tunes, & I've found that for purely technical reasons they get harder as they get faster - the final 2 bars in the B part of the mathematician are the most painful example I can think of!!
Kenny, all I meant was I've read more than a couple of suggestions that young players are "ignoring the tradition", "using the tunes to showcase their talent" etc etc , but I'm not going to go and link in some specific examples - I want to go out and play some tunes tonight, and I don't have time before I go.....
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Andy V
Re: Old people
Fiddlekit is wise beyond her years.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Old people
I used to be wise beyond my years, but then, somewhere around kindergarten I think, it became vice versa.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Old people
No no no... Al... I didn't say "clean behind your ears" I said "wise beyond her years."
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Old people
you think it would go this far joe? =)
can i just point out that in hexham this weekend, the oldies were having a nice slow session and doing it very well, enjoying themselves..then us young'uns came in and sped it up, (still sounded amazing though) and had just as much if not more fun.
if you dont like a session you're in, bugger off and start a better one!
lucy
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by looci
Re: Old people
Well, are we all speaking the same language?
The worst kind of musician you'd ever come across is probably an old guy who tries to make believe he is Martin Hayes but ends up playing 4 times faster in a minute. After the mess, he would complain it was stupid young musicians that speeded up.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by slainte
Re: Old people
Och Larsheen, your Terry Crehan story must be the saddest tale I've read here for a long while!
Reminds me that I was invited by Kathleen King to play a few tunes with herself & Joe Ryan a couple of years ago & what a superb player Joe is & a pure gentleman he is too, with a great sense of humour.
Now Joe may well be of the same genaration as Terry so it is painful to think of any young, ill mannered, eejits showing anyone like that absolutely no respect at all.
I also saw an old, highly respected fiddler sitting in a northern bar, in Pomeroy actually, about 13/14 years ago & he simply wouldn't take his fiddle out of its case to play with the young bloods who were thundering along beside him. Perhaps he had received similar treatment in the past?
Thankfully, later in the night, during a lull, he was persuaded by some locals to get her out & he did strike up a few tunes & he was certainly a fine, fine player!
Anyone care to hazard a guess as to who that might have been?
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Old people
Yes Larsheen, well done sir, god bless your crystal clear memory, that was indeed the dude!
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Old people
See 5 posts up from this - how many of you approve of what "looci" and her friends did in that situation ? Seems to me she should have taken her own advice.
Joe, Andy - still waiting.
# Posted on May 30th 2006 by Kenny
Re: Old people
Its not about the speed but the soul....
this music is about rhythym and feel, with a dash of melody on top. Speed for the sake of it is not interesting or musical or pleasurable - it is just technique. Having listened to some fantasticly talented musicians play at the speed of light and sound sooo dull at Goggerty's in Dublin and then compared the joy of that with a session in Goitin run by an old crew but who played great, I know which I prefer. It is not about old or young but talent and taste - there are plenty of 'old' players who could roast anyone out of the bar with playing speed but don't because they wouldn't want to. Classic example on banjo for example would be the late great Mick O'Connor who can play it fast without it ever sounding too fast, without ever losing the feeling/ musicality of a tune. There are also plenty of young players who play with tremendous feeling viz Enda Scahill.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by nick b
Re: Old people
I'm hoping that Locci is having a joke here but after reading some of the other comments on this thread I'm not sure.
Actually, I've met a few students from the Newcastle course and similar projects over the years and they are mostly really nice young people. However, I often get the feeling that it's a case of "Us and them" in many festival and session situations. For some reason, they don't always mix very well with the older(in this case, read regular) players. I don't think the reason is because they want to reject us or play faster etc but I think many of them have a different repertoire. Much, though not all, is learned on the courses and they are very used to playing in their own company or with other young players. Some may even feel that they don't get much of a welcome from the older players and, in some cases, this might be true. However, in many cases, I think both groups just misunderstand each other.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by John J.
Re: Old people
Kenny - I'm not going to search through all the posts on this website just to give you specific examples. If you search through i'm sure you'll spot them yourself but i have better things to do. One example that i did just see on the 'novelty tunes' discussion was on the second post down where someone said 'which novelty tunes should we all be learning, so we can p1ss off these flashy youngsters'. This might have been a joke but still...... And lay off lucy - she rocks!!! Plus, they'd been in that session for about 3 hours and all we did was play a few tunes while they decided what to play next
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
Well, why didn't she just say that?
I realised she was probably joking but it might not have come over that way for everyone.
There's been times before on this board where I've commented on *some* younger players but, in general, I've found most of them very respectful to older musicians and very nice people. There's fault to be found with people of all age groups and nobody is ever too young or too old to listen to criticicism or take advice.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by John J.
Re: Old people
I'm sure Kenny also has better things to do than to search through himself. We all have better things to do, truth be told.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
Related to the Terry Crehan story, I read somewhere that Arcady decided to record their second album (Many Happy Returns) with all very common tunes (Bucks of Oranmore, Toss the Feathers, etc.) because Johnny McDonagh was at a session where some youngsters were playing some Bulgarian tunes but didn't know Sally Gardens--which, incidentally, is the first tune on that album.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by smw
Re: Old people
And that is why that Arcady album is one of my favorites.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Old people
I find Joe's comment above disgusting. Better things to do? So, he'll never come back here again.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by slainte
This is one of the things I love about this board.
Now downloading Arcady’s “Many Happy Returns” from iTunes, on smw and AlBrown’s recommendation. Thanks for the tip, folks!
Please resume slagging.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by fidkid
Re: Old people
"the oldies were having a nice slow session and doing it very well, enjoying themselves..then us young'uns came in and sped it up, (still sounded amazing though) and had just as much if not more fun. if you dont like a session you're in, bugger off and start a better one!"
What do they teach you at Folkworks? Looks like it's either "how to wind people up for the craic" or "how to be arrogant, egotistical and completely up yourself".
Like JohnJ, I dearly hope it's the first of the two. If not, I'd love to see you go to Ireland and try it on there. You'd be frozen out of the sessions for sure, by young and old alike.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
You're all crazy!!! Folkworks are better teachers and players than you lot will ever be and they know twice as much about running a session than any of you. I'd like to see any of you try to organise a summer school, a young people's folk festival AND a degree course as well as concerts throughout the year. I disgust you?? You all disgust me with your judgemental comments and your little snipes at each other. The fact of the matter is I DID have better things to do today - I had to go and visit my grandad who has just come out of hospital now just stop digging at me and other people and accept the point as valid, whether you disagree or not.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
PLUS, I've been to bloody Ireland and I've been in brilliant sessions there!
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
yes dow, you heard me. point is they liked listening to us. im not being arrogant, there some top quality players there who absolutely amazed me. i've been to ireland twice and we were more than warmly welcomed into every session we went to.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by looci
Re: Old people
What do they teach us at folkworks?
they teach us how fantastic this music is and, yeah, they make us feel good about ourselves which is what adults should do to young people- encourage us! Not shout and look down on us, but appreciate us.
What do they teach you in old people's homes?
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by jazzymaz
Re: Old people
...em, for one, how to fart 'gently', so's not to blow a hole in our Colostomy Bag!
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Old people
well said jazzymaz! where would folk music be without folkworks? not where it is now...its bigger than it's ever been thanks to them. nobody can criticise folkworks when gods like david oliver and alistair anderson are involved!
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by looci
Re: Old people
Oh, great. A generational war.
Is this fun for anybody?
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Old people
Actually i regret even starting the damn post - plus i realised the minute i did it that i should have named it something like 'young people in sessions' :( But you must have seen the comments i mean.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by jazzymaz
Re: Old people
Ok..... for some reason that came up as jazzymaz :S
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
Folkworks are brilliant.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by Choonz
Re: Old people
met some 'oldies' last night who'd been to hexham and said the youngsters were pleasant and welcoming. Was there more than one session there?
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by minijackpot
Re: Old people
Anyway, me and lucy just want to say that we're really sorry for any offence caused - we're actually very nice people and we're sure you are too!
The best thing about folk music is that it brings people together - hope to see you in a session at some point to prove that we're not horrible little young people and to play a nice variety of tunes!! Oh by the way, seriously folks, folkworks are really really good and they really aren't in the least conceited.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
Some day you'll see how young I and Dow are.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by slainte
Re: Old people
To repeat what I said earlier, music is a blessing. Enjoy it. There is plenty of room in the world for all of us, of all ages.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Old people
http://www.shiloholdsite.org/Audio/Music/Glory%20Glory%20Hallellujah%20040906.wav
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Old people
Sorry Al, just couldn't help myself - it was the child in me!
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Old people
"Some day you'll see how young I and Dow are."
If you wait too long to see them, they'll be old, so hurry.
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by ʎɹoʇısuɐɹʇ
Re: Old people
"Plus, they'd been in that session for about 3 hours and all we did was play a few tunes while they decided what to play next"
Can you not see the obvious major faux pas here?
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Old people
"Plus, they'd been in that session for about 3 hours and all we did was play a few tunes while they decided what to play next" - fraid in my book, that is classed as NOODLING on a MAJOR scale!
Come on guys, surely you can see that with you dudes plundering through a bunch of tunes, no matter how well, for jayzus sake, how the feck could they possibly be expected to think clearly of what to play next!
- I'm sure the only tune that sprang to mind for them was - "Show me the way to go Home"!
It sounds like a major hi-jack to me, & believe me I know a hi-jack when I see or hear one!
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Old people
Oh well, I tried to apologise but if you won't let me then.....i'm staying out of it
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
Us young'uns noodle on TUNES, not scales!
Anyway, I prefer Dorian scales...
# Posted on May 31st 2006 by Joe CSS
Re: Old people
Play fast, play slow, play moderate, whatever, but if it doesn't make the foot tap it's a load of sh*te. Great players make any tempo sound easy, and have great lift and so you don't realise how bloody fast some of these old farts are playing. But a whole night of flat out playing? Boreing as Batsh#t!!
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by woops
Re: Old people
Sure. But I think I speak for everyone under 30 when I say that a good fast tune is better than a good slow one.
Joe
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Joe CSS
Re: Old people
Haha JoeOConnor10 I knew we could make you slip up with your sock puppets eventually. I wish I has as many "friends" as you. Just be careful which friend's name you post under when you try and bait people otherwise it's not quite so effective.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
Yeah well said Dow/
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
Oh thanks Dow
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
Oh Dow I wish I could play as fast as you
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
Don't worry Dow, maybe one day
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
You know, Dow, the trick is to actually HAVE friends...
; - ) Joe
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Joe CSS
Re: Old people
"I just tripped over my zimmer....." Boasting again, what?!!? ?
A generation war must be better than a religious war. Let's use our energy up here.
Old age and cunning beats youth and vigour every time.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Old people
Opps “for some reason that came up as jazzumaz”
Could that be because you posted as jazzymaz (who happens to agree with you entirely)
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by BegF
Re: Old people
I can find three that appear to be the same person – is there any more ?
Jeremy have you no control ????
JoeOconnor ? “You are basically an arse”
WeLoveJosephChilds ? - “Don’t be an arse” on this thread, his first ever and happens to agree with JoeOConnor
Jazzymaz ? Says he started the post (his first ever, in which he happens to agree with Joe)…..but but but I thought Joe did ?
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by BegF
Re: Old people
Now I'm going to Sheffield. See you chaps tomorrow
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by JoeOConnor10
Re: Old people
Yes they probably do, but when someone’s first post ever is to
agree with you and they same insulting expressions as you
and one even posts for you (!!!) then, call me suspicious but…
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by BegF
Re: Old people
See you, Joe. Have a lovely time in Sheffield.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
Are your friends going with you?
Sorry SORRY, BegF, someone, please, stop me now
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
You have my blessing Dow – after wall we’re the same
person, aren’t we ?
I’m not sure any more.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by BegF
Re: Old people
after wall ????
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by BegF
Re: Old people
ok i said i wouldnt argue in this discussion any more, but each of those people listed are actually different. Joe is my friend. welovejosephchilds is our friend and jazzymaz is his sister. now why dont you all stop arguing and trying to p*ss people off? =)
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by looci
Re: Old people
Because this thread appears to be intolerance of the older
wiser players (of which I don’t belong) thinly guised as the
reverse.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by BegF
Re: Old people
Firstly, sorry bout leaping into this thread with both feet then running away again, I've been very busy with exams, sessions etc, hope I didn't appear rude. Largely, most young musicians I've met are greatly respectful of older musicians irrespective of how good they are, the tradition is currently undergoing a comeback, and that's largely thanks to the generation of players before me. Last night I was at a session where I was the youngest player there, then about 22ish, 32ish and the remainer were 45+. The tunes were good, well known, played well and at a moderate pace - and I had a damn good time. Tonight I'll go to a session where the tunes are more obscure/modern, played very very fast - but the tunes will still be played well and I'll be equally as happy. Hence my only complaint - why is it automatically assumed that if a tune is played very fast by young people it's done without ornamentation and scrappily? This might be more reflective of the types of young people that most people encounter, but some (and I've heard Joe play and he'd fit into this group) are skilled musicians who can play fast AND accurately. So I hope a few misinterpreted comments haven't soured the feelings towards younger musicians/folkworks etc, but if they have, email me the next time you're in newcastle and drag you out to a session and buy you a pint!!
This should also convince some of the sceptics that I do actually exist if they meet me!
Andy
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Andy V
Re: Old people
I AM JAZZYMAZ!!!
JOEOCONNOR10 IS MY BROTHER...HE FORGOT TO LOG ME OFF BEFORE POSTING, IS THAT OK?
Oh golly gosh its bloomin hard not to flipping swear at you 'old and wise people'. I've met nicer people at a sadist convention!
This post was started to give the young people of the session a voice because all I ever seem to read on this website is you lot slagging off younger players, and now you're saying that it was set up as criticism to you?
Read back a few posts and you'll see that maybe we're sick of you foolish fools slagging us off. Well congratulations, you now appear to have said the worst of it to our faces, aren't you a lovely lot.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by jazzymaz
Re: Old people
Well, the tone of the very post determined how the discussion would progress. Conflict was going to be inevitable due to the attitude displayed in the comments there "boring doddery pace" etc.
I'm all for encouraging young people and allowing them a voice but some of the contributors here haven't done themselves any favours. Thankfully, most of the younger players I've met in real life don't adopt such a disrespectful stance.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by John J.
Re: Old people
Sorry, I meant to say "the tone of the very *first* post" but I'm a bit old and doddery too.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by John J.
Re: Old people
"I've met nicer people at a sadist convention!"
Is that what you lot get up to up North, then...
; - ) Joe
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by Joe CSS
Re: Old people
Fair enough Jazzymaz – I’m sorry you think you’re people are
being bullied here, to be honest I don’t see the evidence.
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by BegF
Re: Old people
Flimsy evidence ? It was based on no evidence at all, but has sadly become self-fulfilling. Time to kill this thread off, and it would be no bad thing if Jeremy were to delete it altogether.
Certainly my last word on it.
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Kenny
Re: Old people
That's not a very nice ending...
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by Joe CSS
Re: Old people
until this thread appeared i have to say that i was n't especially aware of younger players being slagged off on this site but just in case it's true,why don't you give us all a big sloppy kiss for international socialism,Joe?
love at the endings???
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by biggus dave
Re: Old people
Aaahhh, you're not the only one who wants to give him a good smack on the gob.
Oo I can be so mean, can't I?
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
"I've a message for all you young people out there. You're doing yourselves no favours. Stop writing banal crap on this message board and start contributing constructively... Just anything but this meaningless rubbish."
What the hell's the matter with you Dow? Don't you realise that all you've done since putting down this (fairly useless) comment is slag off Joe personnally? And not help in the discussion at all. And why do you address this comment to younger people only? There seem to be far more pointless comments from older people on this discussion, most of which come from yourself.
"Because this thread appears to be intolerance of the older
wiser players".
Why don't you re-read joe's first comment? You've turned it into something it's not. He wasn't complaining about old people, he was complaining about old people complaining about young people. And all of the evidence that you people wanted of old people slagging young people is right here - you've turned a fairly innocent comment into another chance to bully young people. Grow up!
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by djones257
Re: Old people
Trip trap trip trap went the billy goats gruff over the bridge, almost managing to ignore the stupid troll hiding below.
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
What about the people who are no longer young, but not old yet either? I think they deserve some abuse.
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Old people
I used to think that I fell into that category but I'm probably kidding myself.
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by John J.
Re: Old people
LOL. Well, according to the accusers, I'm well and truly old, so I don't qualify to be slagged by you Buttonman. I didn't think I was old. In fact, I thought I was quite young, and that I was disagreeing with them not because of my age but because I think what they're saying is pure crap*. If they took a step back they'd probably realise that the people who have responded to this thread and voiced disagreement are of all ages. Anyway I feel as though I've aged about 20 years following this stupid thread.
* Note that this is not a personal attack, but a judgement on what has been said, or mebbes "shat out" would be more appropriate in this case.
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Old people
This thread is not really about young v old, it is about playing fast v playing slow, based on an assumption that older people cannot play fast. The shallowness of only enjoying fast music is self-evident.
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by Nick Spencer
Re: Old people
Ha!
I have just caught this thread and I think that ALL these "youngsters" are various incarnations of Dow's febrile imagination.
He is obviously bored and just can't get down to writing his thesis. Stop the displacement activity now and get on with your work
Am I wrong?
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Old people
Probably!
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Old people
I think Dow has an aging portrait of himself that he keeps in his closet.
hahahaha
About the ‘fast vs. slow’ debate: I play fast for set dancers, and slower for listening, and sometimes very slow just for effect. I also have no problem playing at tempos other people prefer as long as the respect is mutual. I am admittedly an old codger, but I enjoy playing with musicians of all ages.
One of the music's greatest qualities is the way the music brings generations together. Anyone who fails to recognize and appreciate this aspect is possibly missing the essence of what has allowed this music to thrive for so many generations. I believe this cross-generational aspect of traditional music is the epitome of its life force.
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Old people
Amen.
# Posted on June 4th 2006 by djones257
Re: Old people
that's Dow's portrait in the dorian mode is it,Jack?
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by biggus dave
Re: Old people
Trust you Dave! Good one.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Old people
Hahahaha... yep, with a bit of grey.
# Posted on June 5th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Old people
i agree with Joe- young people shouldn't be stereo-typed and snipped at
# Posted on June 6th 2006 by rob_handel
Re: Old people
"I think Dow has an aging portrait of himself that he keeps in his closet." - Surely not Button! Don't you mean, he is wearing the ageing portrait & the youthful image is hidden in his loft at home!
After all, a young, smiling, friendly face surely wouldn't do his image any good here - now would it?
# Posted on June 6th 2006 by Ptarmigan