irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Hey people i haven’t posted in a while I am only 17 b.t.w for those that don’t know me or remember me. I thought id just raise this topic. A few weeks ago I was at a folk club in England (notts area). One of my favourite songs is 'the town I loved so well" I don’t regard it a rebel song or a song which takes sides. I merely regard it as a very good song with a sad message, which could apply to any town stricken by war in the world. In the song it just so happens to be derry. Anyways when i finish this song I get this bloke who I recently met whose dad or granddad was Irish and he tells me I have no right to sing it and he has a go saying what the f*** do I know about Ireland? and there’s no need for me to be singing this song. He then argues it’s a rebel song or some rubbish. I argue back saying well the great Luke Kelly was from Dublin and he wasn’t from the north so if I don’t have an right what right would he have if that’s his argument m8. He argues back fair and says but Luke Kelly is irish and he was given the song from Phil coulter. I then say fair enough and argue well my dad 's Irish and he’s from bally Connell (on the border) I then also argue Phil coulter said himself the song isn’t a song which takes sides it merely outlines the effects conflict can have. I also argue that Luke Kelly (I don’t pretend to know him by the way) isnt the sort of person that would complain if more and more people were aware of the problems war can have be it any where in the world. also say Luke probably inst the sort who would have been upset if someone (me) who is 20 odd years after his death is singing and continuing the songs he was so passionate about. Anyways to cut a long story short this prat wasn’t having any of it.
im just wondering am I likely to come across many hypocrites like this who are intent on spoiling my fun of sessions and folk clubs as I grow older??
sorry if i offend anyone who agrees with the bloke
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
“im just wondering am I likely to come across many hypocrites like this who are intent on spoiling my fun of sessions and folk clubs as I grow older??”
Well I’m nearly three times your age and I can tell you that in my experience there will always be someone to tell you what you should or should not be doing or thinking. This does not specifically apply to the music either.
The general counsel I’ve offered my children, three of which are older than you and the fourth your same age is to believe in yourself and your convictions, listen to those with whom you may dissent, accept their views partially or completely if you are convinced they are more appropriate, dismiss them if not, and carry on. One thing to remember is that we all can learn from each and every person we meet along our journey. Even if it is simply learning what we do not believe in!
I find a simple way to diffuse most arguments is to say; “I can understand your feeling this way however I feel differently and frankly I’m not inclined to change my views at this time. So you can see further discussions between us on this topic are a waste of time and energy but I’ve enjoyed the discourse none-the-less.”
Oh and by the way I’m not sure why you would refer to this bloke as a hypocrite. Did he sing a rebel song after giving you grief for doing the same?
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Wat an arse!
You will find muppets from time to time like that. Thankfully they are in a tiny minority amongst any muso's i have come across.
I put him in the same catagory as pillocks who instruct musicians ('get'er goin, keep'er lit etc) without the slightest comprehension of how to play themselves.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Mr. McMullen,
You sound pretty knowledgeable and thoughtful for someone of your age. I wish I had had the confidence to sing in public when I was 17, I waited decades before I got the courage. Songs are powerful things, and while some find them inspiring, others find them disturbing and threatening.
The guy sounds like a lost cause, don't waste any time worrying about what he thinks....
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
You could also have said that the song in question is sung all over the world already, even by people who don't look or sound Irish at all. There are translations as well. Nobody can fence the music in - that's what the workings of oral tradition tell us.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
There will always be someone who thinks their opinion is the only opinion. Ed's advice loks like the way to go. Arguing is just a waste of time, it is not easy to convince someone else you are right through force. Although, I probably would have had a smart a** comment along the lines of "too late I already did," and then walked away.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
thanks for all your advice, the thing is i just started playing in a session band with this blokes daughters and they pritty much agreedwith their farther. I left as soon and graciously as i could
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
I disagree with all of you. S. McMullen, you might like the sound of the song and the lyrics, but don't forget that those words have a meaning that can be quite hard-hitting. The lyrics convey a message, and if you sing the song, you have to accept that that message is coming from you, and that you can't detach yourself from it - you have to take responsibility for it. If people like the message in your music, that's great, but if they don't you should take it without complaint. You have to take the rough with the smooth. There's a lot to be said for singing about what you know, and what you have experience of in your own life. If you do that, your listeners will appreciate it all the more. That's why people become singer/songwriters - so that they don't have to sing songs about toiling for 16 hours a day in the fields when in reality they're sat at a computer all day in an office.
So instead of feeling bad towards this guy who criticized you, sit back and view it objectively. If you simply dismiss it then you'll have gained nothing positive. Instead, learn from it. Think about why this guy might feel the way he does and why your song has brought out this negativity in him. Go and learn more about the sort of town you're singing about. One day your own town might be ravaged by war, you never know. Let me tell you, when it does happen, you'll probably look back on this experience and understand why that guy was p*ssed off.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Dow it sounds to me that McMullen was a lot more objective in his argument than the other guy. He actually understands what the song is about and it's definitely not a rebel song. The other chap doesn't seem to know what he's on about. I regularly hear people sing a song about a member of my family and I applaud their courage in singing a good song - that's what matters. The message you take from a song is a personal thing indeed; that's precisely why you shouldn't criticise the singer - they have no control over what your reaction might be.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
i would of welcomed his negative reaction if it was more critical and less angered. Ive had various meeting with the bloke described above and hes the sort that himself thinks he knows everything about ireland . I personally am not kidding myself, i was born in england i am english. I like to know the fact that i am half irish but my nationaltiy is english. He was born in england and i like him am proud of my routes but he seems to want to say hes irish. Im quite tired of hearing these claims and im only 17.
i just want it all to be about the music. I go and visit the cavan area often and the town in which my dad is from bally connel. The town has had various incidents to due with clashes of religion and loyalties so i do feel i have some right to sing the song. Myself like the song however wishes to take no sides and i just want to portray the powerfull message within the song. I belive if a chinese man who is as far from ireland as can be wanted to sing the song i would welcome him and even join in with him!. Then again he could be a half irish half chinese man who is in the same position as me hehehe in that case id support him to the end arghhhhhhh
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
One thing to say. Just because the lyrics portray Derry, doesn't mean there isn't a metaphorical meaning hidden within the lyrics. The lyrics of a song portray a lot more than what is plainly being sung, and what one person takes out of it is different from person to person. The guy had no reason to tell you that you have no right too sing the song, if he wants to see it as a rebel song he can. That doesn't give him te right to critisize you for singing it. Yet, as Dow says try to take away his message, which is not easy for anyone. Let alone someone at our young age (I am also 17). Yes, he could have been nicer and less arrogant, but what can ya do?
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Dow, by taking the role of curmudgeon, and disagreeing with the rest of us, shows that negative feedback, given in a well reasoned manner, can be valuable feedback. You raise some good points Dow!
My sole claim to Irish ancestry is an Irish great grandmother who died long before I was born. I guess I should stop singing "Four Green Fields!"
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
The beauty about living in N.Ireland is when you meet "Irish" people in England, you can always say to them "What the #### do you know about N.Ireland living here?"
As for "The Town I l;ove so Well", it's a home town song, and a peace song. It is certainly not a rebel song.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
It doesn't matter what kind of song it is, there's no doubt that it contains a message, and what I'm saying is that you have to be aware of the message you're giving out. If you put your heart and soul into your singing then you're going to come across as though you really mean what you're singing, and that's when people are going to go "well that was really spirited, but, hang on..." That has nothing to do with whether or not you have a "right" to sing the song. That's just bullsh*t - of course you have a "right" to sing it. Look at it this way: your song has created a very intense emotional reaction in someone. Dude, that's art! There are musicians and poets out there going to great lengths to get the reaction you got. That's why you get shock art, like, collages of dead animals and stuff, and poetry with every other word as the effword.
Anyway McMullen, you already know this, right? You know you're supposed to mull over this stuff. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted this thread in the first place.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
I smell a wind up here as my "routes" are in "The Town I loved So Well". If you want to shut "that guy" up.......Phil Coulter's "farther" was a sergeant in the RICand I doubt very much he has "rebel" tendencies.
I agree with Conan though......the guy sounds like a right erse !
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Personally I just laugh at people like that. Much like the people who comment on the way I sing as gaeilge. The assumption is that because I'm from Dublin I should sing/speak in a different dialect. The fact that I learned my Irish from my mother and grandfather who were Irish speakers, and went to gaelscoileanna myself, is completely irrelevant. What would I know...
Fair play S.McMullen, if people have constructive comments take them on board, but if like that guy they just have some sort of chip, ignore them!
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
There are quite a lot of songs that I wouldn't sing as I know the background to them ( and possibly in more detail than some of the people who criticise). The Town I love so well isn't one of them and the times I have sung it , it has been well received. In fact the only criticism of a similar nature that I can remember was about A parcel of Rogues when I was accused ( partially in jest) of singing anti- English songs which if the accuser had know anything about the song he would have realised it is actually an anti- Scottish establishment song.
One of the main problems is that many songs mean many things to different people. I've had problems with Danny Boy where I found people in tears and recently I learnt in one of the places I go there is a tradition of playing 'The dark Island' when someone dies and I could have upset people by singing my version of it.
I tend to find that the opposite occurs a lot. Many people are delight that an outsider wants to sing their songs (I'm a Scot). They pin me in a corner, make requests and sing their favourite songs at me and the really drunk ones ask me which part of Ireland I come from. I also get people asking if I mind if they sing Scottish songs.
I guess what I'm saying is that you have to be a bit careful at times and aware of the power of the song and the different messages to different people but you can't please all the people all the time. Whatever you sing, make sure you know what it means to you and sing it based on that meaning.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Of course, you have to be careful about your choice of songs and where or when you sing them. However, if everyone restricted themselves to singing or writing songs about matters which either only concerned them personally or were innocuous subjects, then their repertoire would be extremely bland and/or self indulgent to say the least.
So, I'd say you should sing about any subject you wish as long as you've considered the possible consequences and can justify your actions.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
“Of course, you have to be careful about your choice of songs and where or when you sing them.”
You’re right John J, I’ll never sing the Richmond version of “The Irish Brigade” again at a Lincoln dinner! Although I have to admit I was rather amused at the reactions to my mischief.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
yes i did pritty much knew what people have said but i needed it comfirmed in a sense by others who enjoy and play irish music. Obvisuly if everyone replied to my post saying they agreed with the man i would think twice about singing the song. Im delighted therefore that so many of you have backed my arguments.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Hey McMullen, sing away. Don't pay any mind to anyone
who tells you what you can and can't sing.
This applies especially to this beautiful song that I agree with you has universal appeal due to it's simple but beautiful melody combined with lyrical images that apply to any place that has been marred by war and/or violence.
With that in mind I cannot help but wonder what the
person who wrote this song
may be thinking when he reads of reactions
like the one you got.
(Maybe, "Oh my god, what have they done to the song I loved so well.")
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
the irony is that many of the 'rebel' songs were written in Australia..
Being not Irish (my only claim to fame there is my cousin plays Rugby for Ireland), I am more likely to say something smart like "I cant be Irish, I am Pakistani (best not to look it)"
One thing I will never forget is meeting a girl who had the broadest Irish accent, she spoke like Gaelic was her natural language and english in public. She used gaelic mannerisms, slang and her accent was impeccable. She could sing any gaelic song and if you did not know better, you could have sworn she was from Ireland........she was born and bred in Berlin.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
But Joze, that is what happened to the dissenting Irish. They were shipped in convict ships to Australia.
People who take up medievil jousting for example, Morris dancing, rock-n-roll, belly-dancing, people who put on uniforms and pretend they are in the Light Horse, wear kilts, do folk dancing, play African djembe, sing cultural songs in other than their childhood native languages, etc. etc. etc. you name it - all seems like pretty harmless stuff to me. Good on 'em if they get proficient at it = tolerance.
Cheers
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Don't sweat it too much McMullen, pubs and sessions are very much like a human body. They all have one arse and you just happened to find it that time. Songs can indeed have different meanings and some people do tend to identify the message with the messenger and lash out at the closest thing to hand.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
for me, the question isn't whether it is verboten in any way to sing songs if you're not from the group/tradition/region/style, etc. to me, the issue is, do you sound like an ass doing so? it's been my experience that while instrumental music seems to transfer extremely well given an able and empathetic player, there is sometimes a hugely anachronistic cringe factor when it comes to pulling off songs. this is especially, hilariously hideous when white people try to sing blues in black vernacular. i try to get around this by using white hillbilly, since that dialect is in my direct family line. but there's nothing more horribly comical than a white person trying to go, "good gawwwwd, lawwwd!" a la the black south. there's also that college-professor-folkie-trying-hillbilly sound, or the classical- conservatory-vibrato-trilling-anglo-ballads, etc. it's not that there should be a law or rule against it. it's that it sounds asinine.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Sirs!
As a card-carrying Irishman, I am appalled at the way YOU PEOPLE are selling off MY heritage. NON IRISH people singing IRISH songs! The very idea! What next??? Birthplace of the maternal grandmother may qualify one to play soccer for Ireland or to lace on the Gloves for the team in Green in the National Stadium. For singing our IRISH songs, however, the standards should be much more stringent. In my not-so-humble opinion, the singer should be NORMALLY RESIDENT in Ireland, preferably on the West Coast, and he/she should not absent him/herself from the country for more than 10 days in any calendar year. The sooner DAIL EIREANN translates these sentiments into the LAW OF THE LAND, the better for ALL. Go mairfidh an cultur gaelach go beo briomhar agus amhrain ar sinnsir i scornaigh ar n-amhranai dleathacha!
Cuir sin i bhhur bpiopai agus caith e.
MAIRTIN GAELACH
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
F*** YOU MAIRTIN GAELACH! since when can someone stipulate who can sing what songs based on their heritage? next we'll need your permission to wear green!
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Now Martin, I do not pretend to know what a "card carrying Irishman" is, but as I am an Irish national and was born and raised Irish, I have to say that any Irish person I know would shudder when you call football "soccer"! I understand Americans saying this, but as a "card carrying Irishman" you really should know better. That is insulting! Noone who is truely Irish would ever say "soccer". If you should be interested, while I do live in England, I am from the West coast, Mayo. "The town I loved so well" is one I have known all my life and love. I do not consider it a rebel song, but (as been suggested before) a peace song.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
S McMullen comes over as spirited and I share his liking for "The Town -" et cetera.
I read somewhere a comment by Dick Gaughan about singing Scottish songs, to this effect - By all means, if you're not Scottish, sing Scottish songs with the dialect words, just don't try and put on a Scottish accent.
You yourself know if a song moves you; then your key task is good presentation; other people's reactions may be less fathomable or predictable, and local sensitivities likewise, though common sense can indicate songs a given singer would do best to avoid.
I wonder if an Englishman with no Irish connections has ever sung "I Am A Rambling Irishman", and got away with it: now, that would be an acid test.
irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Hey people i haven’t posted in a while I am only 17 b.t.w for those that don’t know me or remember me. I thought id just raise this topic. A few weeks ago I was at a folk club in England (notts area). One of my favourite songs is 'the town I loved so well" I don’t regard it a rebel song or a song which takes sides. I merely regard it as a very good song with a sad message, which could apply to any town stricken by war in the world. In the song it just so happens to be derry. Anyways when i finish this song I get this bloke who I recently met whose dad or granddad was Irish and he tells me I have no right to sing it and he has a go saying what the f*** do I know about Ireland? and there’s no need for me to be singing this song. He then argues it’s a rebel song or some rubbish. I argue back saying well the great Luke Kelly was from Dublin and he wasn’t from the north so if I don’t have an right what right would he have if that’s his argument m8. He argues back fair and says but Luke Kelly is irish and he was given the song from Phil coulter. I then say fair enough and argue well my dad 's Irish and he’s from bally Connell (on the border) I then also argue Phil coulter said himself the song isn’t a song which takes sides it merely outlines the effects conflict can have. I also argue that Luke Kelly (I don’t pretend to know him by the way) isnt the sort of person that would complain if more and more people were aware of the problems war can have be it any where in the world. also say Luke probably inst the sort who would have been upset if someone (me) who is 20 odd years after his death is singing and continuing the songs he was so passionate about. Anyways to cut a long story short this prat wasn’t having any of it.
sorry if i offend anyone who agrees with the bloke
im just wondering am I likely to come across many hypocrites like this who are intent on spoiling my fun of sessions and folk clubs as I grow older??
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Don't worry - he sounds like an arse.
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
“im just wondering am I likely to come across many hypocrites like this who are intent on spoiling my fun of sessions and folk clubs as I grow older??”
Well I’m nearly three times your age and I can tell you that in my experience there will always be someone to tell you what you should or should not be doing or thinking. This does not specifically apply to the music either.
The general counsel I’ve offered my children, three of which are older than you and the fourth your same age is to believe in yourself and your convictions, listen to those with whom you may dissent, accept their views partially or completely if you are convinced they are more appropriate, dismiss them if not, and carry on. One thing to remember is that we all can learn from each and every person we meet along our journey. Even if it is simply learning what we do not believe in!
I find a simple way to diffuse most arguments is to say; “I can understand your feeling this way however I feel differently and frankly I’m not inclined to change my views at this time. So you can see further discussions between us on this topic are a waste of time and energy but I’ve enjoyed the discourse none-the-less.”
Oh and by the way I’m not sure why you would refer to this bloke as a hypocrite. Did he sing a rebel song after giving you grief for doing the same?
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by ejsant
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Nah- he's probably just a tube!!
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by double bass
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Oh by the way the above counsel as to how to diffuse an argument falls under the category "Take my advice, I'm not using it"
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by ejsant
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Wat an arse!
You will find muppets from time to time like that. Thankfully they are in a tiny minority amongst any muso's i have come across.
I put him in the same catagory as pillocks who instruct musicians ('get'er goin, keep'er lit etc) without the slightest comprehension of how to play themselves.
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by jfiddlerh
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Mr. McMullen,
You sound pretty knowledgeable and thoughtful for someone of your age. I wish I had had the confidence to sing in public when I was 17, I waited decades before I got the courage. Songs are powerful things, and while some find them inspiring, others find them disturbing and threatening.
The guy sounds like a lost cause, don't waste any time worrying about what he thinks....
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
You could also have said that the song in question is sung all over the world already, even by people who don't look or sound Irish at all. There are translations as well. Nobody can fence the music in - that's what the workings of oral tradition tell us.
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by kuec
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Sounds to me like you were just singing the song for its own sake, not trying to make a political statement. The guy was a jerk, don't worry about it.
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by O'Lehane
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
There will always be someone who thinks their opinion is the only opinion. Ed's advice loks like the way to go. Arguing is just a waste of time, it is not easy to convince someone else you are right through force. Although, I probably would have had a smart a** comment along the lines of "too late I already did," and then walked away.
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
thanks for all your advice, the thing is i just started playing in a session band with this blokes daughters and they pritty much agreedwith their farther. I left as soon and graciously as i could
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Ha Ha S.McMullan, I like your "farther" - sounds like he is a bit of a fart head alright!
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
oops father
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Don't apologise, I think it was a most appropriate slip up!
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
I disagree with all of you. S. McMullen, you might like the sound of the song and the lyrics, but don't forget that those words have a meaning that can be quite hard-hitting. The lyrics convey a message, and if you sing the song, you have to accept that that message is coming from you, and that you can't detach yourself from it - you have to take responsibility for it. If people like the message in your music, that's great, but if they don't you should take it without complaint. You have to take the rough with the smooth. There's a lot to be said for singing about what you know, and what you have experience of in your own life. If you do that, your listeners will appreciate it all the more. That's why people become singer/songwriters - so that they don't have to sing songs about toiling for 16 hours a day in the fields when in reality they're sat at a computer all day in an office.
So instead of feeling bad towards this guy who criticized you, sit back and view it objectively. If you simply dismiss it then you'll have gained nothing positive. Instead, learn from it. Think about why this guy might feel the way he does and why your song has brought out this negativity in him. Go and learn more about the sort of town you're singing about. One day your own town might be ravaged by war, you never know. Let me tell you, when it does happen, you'll probably look back on this experience and understand why that guy was p*ssed off.
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
hmm....."The Office Cubical I Loved So Well ? "
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by lamh trom
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Don't know dow.
There's no excuse for bad manners!!
Guy sounds like an arrogant arse!!!!!!!!
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by Shtrum
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
How much did this guy have to drink?
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by griffith
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Dow it sounds to me that McMullen was a lot more objective in his argument than the other guy. He actually understands what the song is about and it's definitely not a rebel song. The other chap doesn't seem to know what he's on about. I regularly hear people sing a song about a member of my family and I applaud their courage in singing a good song - that's what matters. The message you take from a song is a personal thing indeed; that's precisely why you shouldn't criticise the singer - they have no control over what your reaction might be.
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
i would of welcomed his negative reaction if it was more critical and less angered. Ive had various meeting with the bloke described above and hes the sort that himself thinks he knows everything about ireland . I personally am not kidding myself, i was born in england i am english. I like to know the fact that i am half irish but my nationaltiy is english. He was born in england and i like him am proud of my routes but he seems to want to say hes irish. Im quite tired of hearing these claims and im only 17.
i just want it all to be about the music. I go and visit the cavan area often and the town in which my dad is from bally connel. The town has had various incidents to due with clashes of religion and loyalties so i do feel i have some right to sing the song. Myself like the song however wishes to take no sides and i just want to portray the powerfull message within the song. I belive if a chinese man who is as far from ireland as can be wanted to sing the song i would welcome him and even join in with him!. Then again he could be a half irish half chinese man who is in the same position as me hehehe in that case id support him to the end arghhhhhhh
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
One thing to say. Just because the lyrics portray Derry, doesn't mean there isn't a metaphorical meaning hidden within the lyrics. The lyrics of a song portray a lot more than what is plainly being sung, and what one person takes out of it is different from person to person. The guy had no reason to tell you that you have no right too sing the song, if he wants to see it as a rebel song he can. That doesn't give him te right to critisize you for singing it. Yet, as Dow says try to take away his message, which is not easy for anyone. Let alone someone at our young age (I am also 17). Yes, he could have been nicer and less arrogant, but what can ya do?
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Dow, by taking the role of curmudgeon, and disagreeing with the rest of us, shows that negative feedback, given in a well reasoned manner, can be valuable feedback. You raise some good points Dow!
My sole claim to Irish ancestry is an Irish great grandmother who died long before I was born. I guess I should stop singing "Four Green Fields!"
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
The beauty about living in N.Ireland is when you meet "Irish" people in England, you can always say to them "What the #### do you know about N.Ireland living here?"
As for "The Town I l;ove so Well", it's a home town song, and a peace song. It is certainly not a rebel song.
# Posted on May 25th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
It doesn't matter what kind of song it is, there's no doubt that it contains a message, and what I'm saying is that you have to be aware of the message you're giving out. If you put your heart and soul into your singing then you're going to come across as though you really mean what you're singing, and that's when people are going to go "well that was really spirited, but, hang on..." That has nothing to do with whether or not you have a "right" to sing the song. That's just bullsh*t - of course you have a "right" to sing it. Look at it this way: your song has created a very intense emotional reaction in someone. Dude, that's art! There are musicians and poets out there going to great lengths to get the reaction you got. That's why you get shock art, like, collages of dead animals and stuff, and poetry with every other word as the effword.
Anyway McMullen, you already know this, right? You know you're supposed to mull over this stuff. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted this thread in the first place.
# Posted on May 26th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
I smell a wind up here as my "routes" are in "The Town I loved So Well". If you want to shut "that guy" up.......Phil Coulter's "farther" was a sergeant in the RICand I doubt very much he has "rebel" tendencies.
I agree with Conan though......the guy sounds like a right erse !
# Posted on May 26th 2006 by Strathfoyle
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Apologies if not a wind up . Ignore the a**hole though doing that to his daughters might give you a problem or two !
# Posted on May 26th 2006 by Strathfoyle
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Personally I just laugh at people like that. Much like the people who comment on the way I sing as gaeilge. The assumption is that because I'm from Dublin I should sing/speak in a different dialect. The fact that I learned my Irish from my mother and grandfather who were Irish speakers, and went to gaelscoileanna myself, is completely irrelevant. What would I know...
Fair play S.McMullen, if people have constructive comments take them on board, but if like that guy they just have some sort of chip, ignore them!
# Posted on May 26th 2006 by tumeltyni
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
There are quite a lot of songs that I wouldn't sing as I know the background to them ( and possibly in more detail than some of the people who criticise). The Town I love so well isn't one of them and the times I have sung it , it has been well received. In fact the only criticism of a similar nature that I can remember was about A parcel of Rogues when I was accused ( partially in jest) of singing anti- English songs which if the accuser had know anything about the song he would have realised it is actually an anti- Scottish establishment song.
One of the main problems is that many songs mean many things to different people. I've had problems with Danny Boy where I found people in tears and recently I learnt in one of the places I go there is a tradition of playing 'The dark Island' when someone dies and I could have upset people by singing my version of it.
I tend to find that the opposite occurs a lot. Many people are delight that an outsider wants to sing their songs (I'm a Scot). They pin me in a corner, make requests and sing their favourite songs at me and the really drunk ones ask me which part of Ireland I come from. I also get people asking if I mind if they sing Scottish songs.
I guess what I'm saying is that you have to be a bit careful at times and aware of the power of the song and the different messages to different people but you can't please all the people all the time. Whatever you sing, make sure you know what it means to you and sing it based on that meaning.
Enjoy
J
# Posted on May 26th 2006 by jfother
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Of course, you have to be careful about your choice of songs and where or when you sing them. However, if everyone restricted themselves to singing or writing songs about matters which either only concerned them personally or were innocuous subjects, then their repertoire would be extremely bland and/or self indulgent to say the least.
So, I'd say you should sing about any subject you wish as long as you've considered the possible consequences and can justify your actions.
# Posted on May 26th 2006 by John J.
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
“Of course, you have to be careful about your choice of songs and where or when you sing them.”
You’re right John J, I’ll never sing the Richmond version of “The Irish Brigade” again at a Lincoln dinner! Although I have to admit I was rather amused at the reactions to my mischief.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on May 26th 2006 by ejsant
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
yes i did pritty much knew what people have said but i needed it comfirmed in a sense by others who enjoy and play irish music. Obvisuly if everyone replied to my post saying they agreed with the man i would think twice about singing the song. Im delighted therefore that so many of you have backed my arguments.
cheers all.
# Posted on May 26th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Hey McMullen, sing away. Don't pay any mind to anyone
who tells you what you can and can't sing.
This applies especially to this beautiful song that I agree with you has universal appeal due to it's simple but beautiful melody combined with lyrical images that apply to any place that has been marred by war and/or violence.
With that in mind I cannot help but wonder what the
person who wrote this song
may be thinking when he reads of reactions
like the one you got.
(Maybe, "Oh my god, what have they done to the song I loved so well.")
# Posted on May 27th 2006 by halfwaythere
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
the irony is that many of the 'rebel' songs were written in Australia..
Being not Irish (my only claim to fame there is my cousin plays Rugby for Ireland), I am more likely to say something smart like "I cant be Irish, I am Pakistani (best not to look it)"
One thing I will never forget is meeting a girl who had the broadest Irish accent, she spoke like Gaelic was her natural language and english in public. She used gaelic mannerisms, slang and her accent was impeccable. She could sing any gaelic song and if you did not know better, you could have sworn she was from Ireland........she was born and bred in Berlin.
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by Joze
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
But Joze, that is what happened to the dissenting Irish. They were shipped in convict ships to Australia.
People who take up medievil jousting for example, Morris dancing, rock-n-roll, belly-dancing, people who put on uniforms and pretend they are in the Light Horse, wear kilts, do folk dancing, play African djembe, sing cultural songs in other than their childhood native languages, etc. etc. etc. you name it - all seems like pretty harmless stuff to me. Good on 'em if they get proficient at it = tolerance.
Cheers
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Don't sweat it too much McMullen, pubs and sessions are very much like a human body. They all have one arse and you just happened to find it that time. Songs can indeed have different meanings and some people do tend to identify the message with the messenger and lash out at the closest thing to hand.
# Posted on May 28th 2006 by newfie percussionist
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
for me, the question isn't whether it is verboten in any way to sing songs if you're not from the group/tradition/region/style, etc. to me, the issue is, do you sound like an ass doing so? it's been my experience that while instrumental music seems to transfer extremely well given an able and empathetic player, there is sometimes a hugely anachronistic cringe factor when it comes to pulling off songs. this is especially, hilariously hideous when white people try to sing blues in black vernacular. i try to get around this by using white hillbilly, since that dialect is in my direct family line. but there's nothing more horribly comical than a white person trying to go, "good gawwwwd, lawwwd!" a la the black south. there's also that college-professor-folkie-trying-hillbilly sound, or the classical- conservatory-vibrato-trilling-anglo-ballads, etc. it's not that there should be a law or rule against it. it's that it sounds asinine.
# Posted on June 1st 2006 by ceemonster
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Sirs!
As a card-carrying Irishman, I am appalled at the way YOU PEOPLE are selling off MY heritage. NON IRISH people singing IRISH songs! The very idea! What next??? Birthplace of the maternal grandmother may qualify one to play soccer for Ireland or to lace on the Gloves for the team in Green in the National Stadium. For singing our IRISH songs, however, the standards should be much more stringent. In my not-so-humble opinion, the singer should be NORMALLY RESIDENT in Ireland, preferably on the West Coast, and he/she should not absent him/herself from the country for more than 10 days in any calendar year. The sooner DAIL EIREANN translates these sentiments into the LAW OF THE LAND, the better for ALL. Go mairfidh an cultur gaelach go beo briomhar agus amhrain ar sinnsir i scornaigh ar n-amhranai dleathacha!
Cuir sin i bhhur bpiopai agus caith e.
MAIRTIN GAELACH
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by frozenstiff
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
F*** YOU MAIRTIN GAELACH! since when can someone stipulate who can sing what songs based on their heritage? next we'll need your permission to wear green!
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by rob_handel
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
I think frozenstiff is being sarcastic; bit of a Flann O'Brien.... put that in your pipe and smoke it indeed!
# Posted on June 2nd 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
Now Martin, I do not pretend to know what a "card carrying Irishman" is, but as I am an Irish national and was born and raised Irish, I have to say that any Irish person I know would shudder when you call football "soccer"! I understand Americans saying this, but as a "card carrying Irishman" you really should know better. That is insulting! Noone who is truely Irish would ever say "soccer". If you should be interested, while I do live in England, I am from the West coast, Mayo. "The town I loved so well" is one I have known all my life and love. I do not consider it a rebel song, but (as been suggested before) a peace song.
# Posted on November 19th 2006 by sabrinah
Re: irish songs for everyone or just for the so called irish!
S McMullen comes over as spirited and I share his liking for "The Town -" et cetera.
I read somewhere a comment by Dick Gaughan about singing Scottish songs, to this effect - By all means, if you're not Scottish, sing Scottish songs with the dialect words, just don't try and put on a Scottish accent.
You yourself know if a song moves you; then your key task is good presentation; other people's reactions may be less fathomable or predictable, and local sensitivities likewise, though common sense can indicate songs a given singer would do best to avoid.
I wonder if an Englishman with no Irish connections has ever sung "I Am A Rambling Irishman", and got away with it: now, that would be an acid test.
# Posted on November 19th 2006 by nicholas