While I think there is lots of good advice on flutes and flute playing here, one piece of advice I would like to give to would-be fluters is this: first MASTER THE WHISTLE! I spent nearly 6 years playing the whistle before I got anywhere near a flute. Admittedly, that was the days when getting a flute meant getting an antique flute and they were expensive. Economic factors are still the reason why most native musicians my age play one instrument but have learnt to play it well. In the US I have met too many flute players who would be best advised to go back to the whistle. It is true that not all good whistle players manage to make the jump to the flute, but all good flute players of my acquaintance were first of all excellent whistle players. Having taught an "intermediate/ advanced" flute workshop during the summer in the US, I found that nearly all participants lacked solid basic finger work and struggled with phrasing and even the rhythm. Not an awful lot of point in talking about tone, volume, breath control when the basic foundation for flute playing has yet to be built. From what I have seen at festivals, workshops, sessions etc many American musicians tend to overestimate their ability, sometimes wildly, if charmingly -- like the young lady who had been playing whistle for 10 months and was now working on her CD! Not that she was a bad player, but she had still got a brave bit of the road to go and a lot more to learn. It is sometimes hard to give workshoppers good advice (like "you're not yet ready for the flute" "Have you ever tried the whistle?") without offending them. If you want to play the flute, by all means get one now, given the waiting lists, but if you are not yet proficient on the whistle, stick to that and MASTER it. Become a good/ very good/ great whistle player. Sure, the flute is more powerful and more impressive at the session than the humble whistle, but it also amplifies shoddy finger work, phrasing and rhythm. Many things will have to be learned or re-learned when you later switch to the flute, but if you really have put in the time on the whistle, there will be a good return on the investment.
I understand your advice, and maybe i should have followed it, but since i had a lot of training on classical flute already, the flute was (and is) a lot easier for me than the whistle. I feel i can be a lot more expressive on the flute than on whistle.
But i understand your advice, that the flute (and whistle) are deceptively easy instruments to play. Many people will be able to play a simple tune on whistle a few minutes after they pick up a whistle for the first time. On flute, maybe after a couple of days. However, to play either of these properly, will take your whole life.
Long notes, it's very important to practice long notes...
Longnote, the more i thing about what you posted, i think one of the things that you said that is definitely true is that the flute has a steeper learning curve than the whistle, because it requires much more breath control and muscle control. Whoever is contemplating these 2 instruments should know that he or she will be able to start playing in sessions quicker with the whistle than with the flute. But from there to playing like Geraldine Cotter, that's a lot of work.
I don't think everyone who plays whistle should also play flute or vice versa.
I just think it's funny that Longnote routinely aims his advice at us indolent, uninformed, self-indulgent, ego-maniacal Americans. But then I'm one of them, and proving it by simultaneously learning whistle and flute, heh, heh.
I agree with your basic premise though, that for most people whistle will be easier to learn, and nearly everything transfers over to flute, so it makes sense to improve your chances on flute by working through whistle. I'm just not convinced that one needs to exclude the other, or that you can't learn flute without going through whistle. And as long as this is all about having fun playing music on the instrument that calls your name, I'd say go for it.
The problem of beginners promoting their own cds and crashing sessions with half-learnt tunes is not unique to whistle and flute, nor to Americans, nor to Irish Trad music.
Glauber, you're being far too modest. I've seen your music video--all those live concert scenes from Stockholm, Orleans, Johannesburg, Osaka, and Reykjavik, adoring fans thronging the stage at your feet. The clover headband and goatskin kilt are a nice touch, but didn't you get cold in Reykjavik without a shirt on?
Well, who knew that solo ITM flute could be so popular among the teenyboppers? I wish I'd thought of playing it through a 6,000 watt monitor system with reverb and chorus to the max.... You sound terrific!
Well, that advice is too late for me, as I started Boehm flute 40 years ago. Wait a minute--they drilled us on those hideous plastic "song flutes" for a few years before that. Does that count?
But I have recently discovered that I can do things on whistle (slide or smear a note, for example) that I can't do on my trusty Boehms. I keep going back to the flute, though, for odd keys, flat keys (not enough whistles yet, apparently), and its all-in-one chromatic capabilities. My flutes are wood with full Boehm keying--C foot, offset G, plateau keys. They have a warm, woody sound and don't annoy the cat quite so much as the D whistle does.
Why don't I get an Irish or simple flute? I have damaged fingers and can't make the reach.
There's no CD even thought of, for Pete's sake! I play for my own amusement.
Hey Glauber, if you make it to Pennsylvania, I'll organize a session to welcome you.
"My flutes are wood with full Boehm keying--C foot, offset G, plateau keys. They have a warm, woody sound and don't annoy the cat quite so much as the D whistle does."
Marguerite, I'm interested in wooden Boehm flutes at an affordable price - if they exist. Up to now I've only found the Yamaha flute for about 9000 USD. What flutes do you have?
- claudine -
I got the H. Bettony (ca. 1940) about 25 years ago for under US$300 and I'd be very surprised to find a flute at that price again. I'm making payments on a 1918 Haynes, which was offered to me at a bargain-basement price of US$1000. However, the Haynes does want to play at about A=430, even though it's much more nimble than the Bettony.
Rather than go on eBay and troll for one (my observation is that wood flutes go maybe too high), I'd go instead to some reputable used-flute sites and newsletters and keep my eyes open. I HAVE seen them show up from time to time.
For example http://www.flutenet.com/ lists lots of flutes for sale and they mail out an actual paper newsletter, too, for free. They're folksy, friendly, and responsive if you e-mail.
I play the humble whistle, but in my opinion if someone is interested in learning the flute, they should learn that instrument because THAT instrument is the one that interests that individual. I've been playing for a few years now and I still don't feel like a master on the whistle, although my playing, (hopefully) continues to progress. Life seems short to me, and I would hate to "waste" years practicing an instrument in order to get to the next point. Maybe if I were 20 years old again, I might feel differently. hmmmmm.....
Claudine, wooden Boehms are, unfortunately, getting popular and expensive again. I make do with a metal flute and wooden head, works very well. but definitely flutenet! Subscribe to their newsletter, just for fun (it's free). It always has good deals, and you will feel connected to the other poor flute players around the world.
My friend has a cheap delrin flute which i "borrowed" (heh!) from her, I played it for one of my teachers who is a Irish flautist for about 35 yrs. She couldn't tell that it was made of wood so why the h*ll should I?!?
(I know, that's exactly what all the flutemakers and retailers say... but it's true -- maybe you more experienced players scoff at the delrin flute but it's great for the first few years.)
There's all my participatory musings for the next few days... i'll go back to lurking again.
I want to loop back to something Longnote said--his/her horror that this new whistle player was working on her CD.
Well, sure, this sounds like presumptious overconfidence on the face of it, but why the heck not start on a CD? With a good computer and a properly prepared room, you don't need to spend good money (i.e., money that could be spent on more whistles) renting time in a professional studio.
When you do recordings, you have to listen to tracks and evaluate the take. I don't record myself so I'm probably unconsciously repeating errors. The precocious little darling may be improving her technique faster because of it.
I'm not the recording police and if she wants to amuse herself making a CD, it does me no harm and I can listen to it or not, as I chose.
I see you point, but I slightly disagree. I've been playing whistles (and low whistles) for more than 3 years. I think I'm a fair player, still far from being a master, but I feel I have to start playing the flute right now, and as Will says, be learning both instruments at the same time. I know that the learning curve is different but pretty soon after starting playing the whistle I wanted to play the flute. I've been waiting for 3 years now and I think I'm ready to jump. Anyway, as it was repeatedly said in last week's great discussion about a second instrument, there's nothing wrong with it, specially with beasts of the same family.
I have noticed that, in Ireland and in irish communities elsewhere, most children who learn music start with the whistle, whether they go on to play the flute, pipes, fiddle or box. I have often been amazed by non-wind players pulling out a whistle and proving themselves to be very competent players - it is almost taken for granted. Apart from being a cheap instrument (which allows for the small possibility that a child might prove to have no desire to play music), learning the whistle provides a grounding not only in the fingering for the flute (as Longnote has said) and the pipes, but in the music as a whole - the structure and rhythm of tunes, the use of phrasing, ornamentation and variation, which can be transferred onto any instrument. The principle of the roll, for example is common, with some differences in the method of execution, to the flute, whistle, pipes, fiddle and accordion.
As in Glauber's case, the situation may be somewhat different outside Ireland, where many learners may already play some other form of music. I think the needs of these players are often not adequately addressed in group-teaching of traditional music. There are now a few musicians - notably flute and fiddle players - who run workshops specifically for this purpose, but perhaps there is a degree of reluctance on the part of some teachers.
By the way, players who overestimate their ability are not confined to the US - they are to be found in England and, dare I say it, Ireland as well. I (an Englishman) am no doubt guilty of it myself sometimes. But then, I like to think I also sometimes underestimate my ability. That's human nature for you.
David, i think the reasons you mention are all fine reasons to start learning with the whistle. Your observation is right too, it's different when you're a child being coaxed into the national tradition in Ireland, than when you're an adult who already understands the value of money and the need for commitment.
But whistle is a fine instrument to give to a child.
In the US, btw, children often start learning music on band instruments borrowed from school. This would be unthinkable in my country Brasil, the money just isn't there! In Brazil, the "instrument of the people" is the cheap guitar and also the various kinds of percussion instruments.
Our school (Privately owned, totally non-funded by the government) was too poor for instruments so we got to learn the recorder. (If you don't know what a recorder is, visit http://www.chiffandfipple.com/norelco.html and if you do know, go there anyways)
I was the ONLY person in grades 6-8 who actually liked the recorder, I got quite good at it, enough to play in our school's "Recorder choir" (hahaha.....).
At the end of grade 8 I picked up a cheap feadog whistle and immediately could play easy tunes like Star of the County Down, Drowsy Maggie, etc. and now in grade 10 I've surpassed grade 4 highland bagpiping, still play the whistle with a celtic ensemble in my school, just got a cheap Delrin flute, and am saving up for an upgradable set of uilleann pipes.
Just my two cents that doesn't really add anything to the conversation... as usual
First Whistle, then Flute!
First Whistle, then Flute!
While I think there is lots of good advice on flutes and flute playing here, one piece of advice I would like to give to would-be fluters is this: first MASTER THE WHISTLE! I spent nearly 6 years playing the whistle before I got anywhere near a flute. Admittedly, that was the days when getting a flute meant getting an antique flute and they were expensive. Economic factors are still the reason why most native musicians my age play one instrument but have learnt to play it well. In the US I have met too many flute players who would be best advised to go back to the whistle. It is true that not all good whistle players manage to make the jump to the flute, but all good flute players of my acquaintance were first of all excellent whistle players. Having taught an "intermediate/ advanced" flute workshop during the summer in the US, I found that nearly all participants lacked solid basic finger work and struggled with phrasing and even the rhythm. Not an awful lot of point in talking about tone, volume, breath control when the basic foundation for flute playing has yet to be built. From what I have seen at festivals, workshops, sessions etc many American musicians tend to overestimate their ability, sometimes wildly, if charmingly -- like the young lady who had been playing whistle for 10 months and was now working on her CD! Not that she was a bad player, but she had still got a brave bit of the road to go and a lot more to learn. It is sometimes hard to give workshoppers good advice (like "you're not yet ready for the flute" "Have you ever tried the whistle?") without offending them. If you want to play the flute, by all means get one now, given the waiting lists, but if you are not yet proficient on the whistle, stick to that and MASTER it. Become a good/ very good/ great whistle player. Sure, the flute is more powerful and more impressive at the session than the humble whistle, but it also amplifies shoddy finger work, phrasing and rhythm. Many things will have to be learned or re-learned when you later switch to the flute, but if you really have put in the time on the whistle, there will be a good return on the investment.
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by LongNote
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
I understand your advice, and maybe i should have followed it, but since i had a lot of training on classical flute already, the flute was (and is) a lot easier for me than the whistle. I feel i can be a lot more expressive on the flute than on whistle.
But i understand your advice, that the flute (and whistle) are deceptively easy instruments to play. Many people will be able to play a simple tune on whistle a few minutes after they pick up a whistle for the first time. On flute, maybe after a couple of days. However, to play either of these properly, will take your whole life.
Long notes, it's very important to practice long notes...
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by glauber
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
Longnote, the more i thing about what you posted, i think one of the things that you said that is definitely true is that the flute has a steeper learning curve than the whistle, because it requires much more breath control and muscle control. Whoever is contemplating these 2 instruments should know that he or she will be able to start playing in sessions quicker with the whistle than with the flute. But from there to playing like Geraldine Cotter, that's a lot of work.
I don't think everyone who plays whistle should also play flute or vice versa.
g
# Posted on October 25th 2002 by glauber
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
Personally, I'd like to take up the marimba! : ^)
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by linda
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
I just think it's funny that Longnote routinely aims his advice at us indolent, uninformed, self-indulgent, ego-maniacal Americans. But then I'm one of them, and proving it by simultaneously learning whistle and flute, heh, heh.
I agree with your basic premise though, that for most people whistle will be easier to learn, and nearly everything transfers over to flute, so it makes sense to improve your chances on flute by working through whistle. I'm just not convinced that one needs to exclude the other, or that you can't learn flute without going through whistle. And as long as this is all about having fun playing music on the instrument that calls your name, I'd say go for it.
The problem of beginners promoting their own cds and crashing sessions with half-learnt tunes is not unique to whistle and flute, nor to Americans, nor to Irish Trad music.
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
Did i mention i have a CD?
email me for ordering info!
glauber (crashing a session near you soon!)
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by glauber
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
Glauber, you're being far too modest. I've seen your music video--all those live concert scenes from Stockholm, Orleans, Johannesburg, Osaka, and Reykjavik, adoring fans thronging the stage at your feet. The clover headband and goatskin kilt are a nice touch, but didn't you get cold in Reykjavik without a shirt on?
Well, who knew that solo ITM flute could be so popular among the teenyboppers? I wish I'd thought of playing it through a 6,000 watt monitor system with reverb and chorus to the max.... You sound terrific!
Wistfully awaiting your next cd,
A Fan
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
Well, that advice is too late for me, as I started Boehm flute 40 years ago. Wait a minute--they drilled us on those hideous plastic "song flutes" for a few years before that. Does that count?
But I have recently discovered that I can do things on whistle (slide or smear a note, for example) that I can't do on my trusty Boehms. I keep going back to the flute, though, for odd keys, flat keys (not enough whistles yet, apparently), and its all-in-one chromatic capabilities. My flutes are wood with full Boehm keying--C foot, offset G, plateau keys. They have a warm, woody sound and don't annoy the cat quite so much as the D whistle does.
Why don't I get an Irish or simple flute? I have damaged fingers and can't make the reach.
There's no CD even thought of, for Pete's sake! I play for my own amusement.
Hey Glauber, if you make it to Pennsylvania, I'll organize a session to welcome you.
Marguerite
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by mvhplank
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
"My flutes are wood with full Boehm keying--C foot, offset G, plateau keys. They have a warm, woody sound and don't annoy the cat quite so much as the D whistle does."
Marguerite, I'm interested in wooden Boehm flutes at an affordable price - if they exist. Up to now I've only found the Yamaha flute for about 9000 USD. What flutes do you have?
- claudine -
# Posted on October 26th 2002 by claudine
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
Claudine,
I got the H. Bettony (ca. 1940) about 25 years ago for under US$300 and I'd be very surprised to find a flute at that price again. I'm making payments on a 1918 Haynes, which was offered to me at a bargain-basement price of US$1000. However, the Haynes does want to play at about A=430, even though it's much more nimble than the Bettony.
Rather than go on eBay and troll for one (my observation is that wood flutes go maybe too high), I'd go instead to some reputable used-flute sites and newsletters and keep my eyes open. I HAVE seen them show up from time to time.
For example http://www.flutenet.com/ lists lots of flutes for sale and they mail out an actual paper newsletter, too, for free. They're folksy, friendly, and responsive if you e-mail.
Marguerite
# Posted on October 27th 2002 by mvhplank
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
I play the humble whistle, but in my opinion if someone is interested in learning the flute, they should learn that instrument because THAT instrument is the one that interests that individual. I've been playing for a few years now and I still don't feel like a master on the whistle, although my playing, (hopefully) continues to progress. Life seems short to me, and I would hate to "waste" years practicing an instrument in order to get to the next point. Maybe if I were 20 years old again, I might feel differently. hmmmmm.....
# Posted on October 27th 2002 by whistlegirl in RI
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
Whistlegirl: You go girl!!!
Claudine, wooden Boehms are, unfortunately, getting popular and expensive again. I make do with a metal flute and wooden head, works very well. but definitely flutenet! Subscribe to their newsletter, just for fun (it's free). It always has good deals, and you will feel connected to the other poor flute players around the world.
g
# Posted on October 27th 2002 by glauber
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
Poor in money, right?
My friend has a cheap delrin flute which i "borrowed" (heh!) from her, I played it for one of my teachers who is a Irish flautist for about 35 yrs. She couldn't tell that it was made of wood so why the h*ll should I?!?
(I know, that's exactly what all the flutemakers and retailers say... but it's true -- maybe you more experienced players scoff at the delrin flute but it's great for the first few years.)
There's all my participatory musings for the next few days... i'll go back to lurking again.
# Posted on October 27th 2002 by no longer exists
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
I want to loop back to something Longnote said--his/her horror that this new whistle player was working on her CD.
Well, sure, this sounds like presumptious overconfidence on the face of it, but why the heck not start on a CD? With a good computer and a properly prepared room, you don't need to spend good money (i.e., money that could be spent on more whistles) renting time in a professional studio.
When you do recordings, you have to listen to tracks and evaluate the take. I don't record myself so I'm probably unconsciously repeating errors. The precocious little darling may be improving her technique faster because of it.
I'm not the recording police and if she wants to amuse herself making a CD, it does me no harm and I can listen to it or not, as I chose.
Just a thought.
# Posted on October 27th 2002 by mvhplank
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
LongNote,
I see you point, but I slightly disagree. I've been playing whistles (and low whistles) for more than 3 years. I think I'm a fair player, still far from being a master, but I feel I have to start playing the flute right now, and as Will says, be learning both instruments at the same time. I know that the learning curve is different but pretty soon after starting playing the whistle I wanted to play the flute. I've been waiting for 3 years now and I think I'm ready to jump. Anyway, as it was repeatedly said in last week's great discussion about a second instrument, there's nothing wrong with it, specially with beasts of the same family.
# Posted on October 27th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
I have noticed that, in Ireland and in irish communities elsewhere, most children who learn music start with the whistle, whether they go on to play the flute, pipes, fiddle or box. I have often been amazed by non-wind players pulling out a whistle and proving themselves to be very competent players - it is almost taken for granted. Apart from being a cheap instrument (which allows for the small possibility that a child might prove to have no desire to play music), learning the whistle provides a grounding not only in the fingering for the flute (as Longnote has said) and the pipes, but in the music as a whole - the structure and rhythm of tunes, the use of phrasing, ornamentation and variation, which can be transferred onto any instrument. The principle of the roll, for example is common, with some differences in the method of execution, to the flute, whistle, pipes, fiddle and accordion.
As in Glauber's case, the situation may be somewhat different outside Ireland, where many learners may already play some other form of music. I think the needs of these players are often not adequately addressed in group-teaching of traditional music. There are now a few musicians - notably flute and fiddle players - who run workshops specifically for this purpose, but perhaps there is a degree of reluctance on the part of some teachers.
By the way, players who overestimate their ability are not confined to the US - they are to be found in England and, dare I say it, Ireland as well. I (an Englishman) am no doubt guilty of it myself sometimes. But then, I like to think I also sometimes underestimate my ability. That's human nature for you.
# Posted on October 28th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: First Whistle, then Flute!
David, i think the reasons you mention are all fine reasons to start learning with the whistle. Your observation is right too, it's different when you're a child being coaxed into the national tradition in Ireland, than when you're an adult who already understands the value of money and the need for commitment.
But whistle is a fine instrument to give to a child.
In the US, btw, children often start learning music on band instruments borrowed from school. This would be unthinkable in my country Brasil, the money just isn't there! In Brazil, the "instrument of the people" is the cheap guitar and also the various kinds of percussion instruments.
# Posted on October 28th 2002 by glauber
Band Instruments
Our school (Privately owned, totally non-funded by the government) was too poor for instruments so we got to learn the recorder. (If you don't know what a recorder is, visit http://www.chiffandfipple.com/norelco.html and if you do know, go there anyways)
I was the ONLY person in grades 6-8 who actually liked the recorder, I got quite good at it, enough to play in our school's "Recorder choir" (hahaha.....).
At the end of grade 8 I picked up a cheap feadog whistle and immediately could play easy tunes like Star of the County Down, Drowsy Maggie, etc. and now in grade 10 I've surpassed grade 4 highland bagpiping, still play the whistle with a celtic ensemble in my school, just got a cheap Delrin flute, and am saving up for an upgradable set of uilleann pipes.
Just my two cents that doesn't really add anything to the conversation... as usual
# Posted on November 2nd 2002 by no longer exists